#if you listen to leon's dialogue and genuinely can't hear it

[sapphire-weapon]

Not to be contrarian but when exactly in RE4R does Leon flirt with Ashley? I did see her flirting with him but never the other way around? And he never responds to her flirting as far as I know. I don't hate the ship or care about shipping and I do like Ashley in the remake but I saw their relationship as a developing friendship and would love to see her again because Leon needs caring friends like her in his life. I do agree with you though that they're not sibling coded at all, anyone who pays attention can see that.

I feel like I've answered this literally so many times, so I'm going to actually flip this on you. Tell me when you saw Ashley flirting with Leon, because I didn't catch it. I saw moments where she lets her obvious crush on him slip out, but I never caught her initiating open flirting with him like he does to her -- because those actually are different things.

The closest thing I can think of is the "I think you'd look pretty dashing" line, but that's mild at best compared to some of the shit he says to her.

[seraphdesire]

Regarding Donna Beneviento and her characterisation in the fandom, I think it's important to note that she really isn't the shy awkward adorable blushing mess that everyone depicts her as being.

This got long but I did a mildly extensive read on her character under the break! :)

Here are the notes I took a screencap of, written by Mother Miranda, which talks about the suitability of Donna being a vessel for Eva:

There's the evidence you need that she is severely mentally ill, so babying her just feels... wrong anyway, all things considered.

Note - "and has divided her Cadou among her dolls in order to control them from a distance." While I'm on my 3rd replay of re8 I still don't fully get how the Cadou works, but what I think is essentially happening is Donna is literally splitting off parts of herself and putting them in her dolls.

The main one being Angie, of course.

I always used to consider Angie a separate character entirely but she's linked deeply to Donna on a very personal level. Considering what she's like and what all the other dolls are like - loud, funny, sarcastic, rude, etc - and how Donna is literally the one directly controlling Angie (that's the only way she moves lol, because Donna is carrying her places. Which is also why, when you kill Angie, the illusion melts away to reveal that you've actually killed Donna), I think it's safe to say that's what her actual personality is like.

Also, her only spoken line of dialogue? Please listen to it. For those who are hard of hearing, like me, she says: "don't leave... I can't let you."

Bearing in mind the way she speaks? Her tone? She sounds confident imo. Determined. And perhaps even a little angry at Ethan for thinking he can escape her.

Just a last addition as well, can I say that her abilities as one of the Four Lourds is genuinely evil? Everyone else has physical intimidation - Alcina has her height and her claws and mutation, Heisenberg has his ability to control magnetic fields and metal, and Moreau can mutate into that huge fish-with-legs thing that vomits something akin to acid? Oh yeah and he can swallow you whole too.

Donna, on the other hand, doesn't have physical intimidation like that. She only has the threat of psychological damage (which makes sense considering she's severely mentally unwell). When Ethan goes through her gardens and has to solve the puzzles in the house, she makes him hallucinate about his wife whom he thinks is dead, and about his baby who is somewhere in this unknown country with a bunch of mutants who only have bad intentions.

It's even worse in the Shadows of Rose DLC imo. As Rose, Donna makes her hallucinate the bullies from back home, being called a freak and a weirdo, made to relive the worst moments of her life. And the puzzles too? Hell. Having to actually recreate the scenes of her bullying with wooden fucking dolls. I remember feeling really sorry for Rose while playing through that part.

And yet Donna is still "the uwu baby" because what? I don't know. People love to declaw female villains just because they're attractive (looking at Lady Dimitrescu here). They love to reduce the characters down to their looks and not consider their actual lore or background or the role they play in the franchise (looking at Leon especially...)

Which, ya know, of course people are allowed their headcanons for characters and Donna doesn't get enough screentime to really have her personality even thought of, let alone to be made canon. But I think it's fair to say that Angie and Donna are basically one and the same because they're literally the same Cadou.

This is a quick reminder that you are, of course, allowed to disagree with me. Everyone has their own opinions and that's fine. If you would like to politely debate about this in my comments or in my DMs, or even in my asks, then you're more than welcome to! Please remember debating and arguing are two different things though.

If it really irks you that bad then please scroll, it's not hard. If you don't want to do that then feel free to block me - the button is free of charge after all and should be used more to cultivate your feed to your liking.

[agonycrossbow]

Up to this point in SW, Ada's exposure to Leon has been:

Seeing him during the village fight and then ringing the bell for him

Seeing him getting choked out by Mendez, then watching him stumble his ass over to the gate, unlock it, and head back towards the village

Luis's radio call to him at the start of his castle section

Their very first scene together in his campaign

The "babysitting's tough, huh?" conversation

Seeing him run over to a dying Luis

The "I guess you're not heartless" conversation

That's it.

So, let's explore Ada's feelings as she goes through Separate Ways with regards to Leon, Ashley, and herself.

The very first time Ada hears Leon's voice, it's him teasing Ashley with:

"I wanted to go home, but Ashley had to see this castle first."

The very first time Ada speaks to Leon herself, the first expression of emotion he shows is when she tells him to leave Ashley behind -- and it's anger at her.

The very first time Ada sees Ashley in person, it's this moment ^^^ in the shots.

This is what I mean by SW making the main campaign feel like "The Leon and Ashley Show" from Ada's perspective. Of those seven encounters, four of them have been about Ashley. In fact, the only conversations that Leon and Ada have had up to this point have been about Ashley.

And this happens over and over and over and over again. Ada can't seem to catch Leon at all without Ashley also being in the picture in some way. The boat scene is literally the only conversation they have or moment they share where Ashley doesn't come up at all.

This is what I mean when I say that SW feels like Ada's being forced to bear witness to what her relationship with Leon could have been in Raccoon City if only she'd been honest and genuine with him up front.

The point of having Ada listen in on the "Ashley had to see the castle" line was so that she became aware of what the relationship between Leon and Ashley was actually like. It isn't just business between them; it's warm and playful.

And Ada rejects that, at first. She outright denies it to herself. That's what's really at the heart of her telling Leon to leave Ashley behind -- because Ada, at first, almost doesn't confront Leon at all. She damn near leaves the room before he walks in, but then she thinks better of it at the very last second.

The full line of dialogue of:

"Leave the girl. She's lost no matter what. You walk away now, and who knows? Maybe you'll live to meet me again. And then I might get you that 'greeting' you were looking for."

immediately follows her openly hitting on him ("Not a bad move. Very smooth."), to which he has no reaction. And so she gets more explicit with him. Let's break it down:

"Leave Ashley. She's not important. If you leave her, you'll finally get to have me. That's what you really want, right?"

That's why her actual line isn't framed as a warning. She doesn't double down on it when Leon pushes back on it; her response is: "Right. How about we continue this discussion another time?" It's not about Ashley turning or not turning -- it's not about Leon saving her. It's about Ada offering herself and then feeling "what the fuck" about it when the offer is refused.

But she still denies it to herself. That's why her follow-up line of dialogue once she jumps out of the window is a very coy "See you around, Leon." She still isn't ready to accept that she's been replaced as the focus of his attention and affection -- hence the pettiness of her "Babysitting's tough, huh?" line.

Her attitude only starts to change after Luis's death -- when his dying wish is for her to help Leon. So, Ada puts her pettiness aside and switches from demeaning and belittling Ashley to referring to her as "your friend" instead. It shows a degree of respect while still removing the overt affection from the equation.

But then Krauser runs off with Ashley. Leon's anger boils over, and he shoots Salazar in the face. And now, Ada's reaction is:

But when she finds him right on her heels because he's that fucking pissed and that fucking determined to go after Krauser for Ashley's sake, it still catches her by surprise. It speaks to the depth of Leon's concern and affection for Ashley.

Once again, it reaffirms that Ashley's not just a mission objective to Leon. It's personal, for him.

This leads directly into the boat scene, where Ada tells Leon that his greatest strength is still the love and compassion he has for other people...

... though it's not as if he hears her at all.

The next time Ada sees or hears from Leon, it's her walking in on the "for Luis" scene.

Along with the pep talk scene, this is the most intimate scene in the game. Ada is intruding on a very private, vulnerable moment between Leon and Ashley that ends in a promise:

"For Luis."

This is Ada's affirmation that Luis wasn't jerking her around -- he was being genuine about wanting to help Leon and Ashley, and now they're committed to honoring his memory and granting him his dying wish.

And Ada's pettiness finally melts away -- at least, for a time. They have their way of honoring Luis, so now it's time for her to do it her way.

Suddenly, Leon and Ashley's closeness doesn't matter to her anymore -- because it's not about them, and it's not about her. It's about Luis.

Walking out of the comms facility, she hears Ashley successfully fighting off Saddler. Interesting framing here with the jet ski in the foreground.

But interestingly, Ada's focus doesn't fall to her.

There's actually not a single moment in this game where Ada says Ashley's name out loud. Ashley is either "her" or "the girl" or "the president's daughter." No matter how far she comes in this, Ada still can't let go of that last little bit of pettiness. It's still personal for her, and the only reason why Ada helps Ashley at all is because it also helps Leon, which in turn honors Luis.

So, she does do it.

But not for Ashley's sake.

And she isn't about to go out of her way, either.

And then we reach the apex of it all.

Ashley's watching Leon's fight with Saddler with her hands clasped against her chest as though in prayer, as embers float around her like fireflies. This is overtly romantic imagery. I've said this before but: this is so romantic in its imagery and symbolism that it's just straight up on the level of Final Fantasy nonsense.

And not only is Ada forced to reckon with that, but the first and only thing out of Ashley's mouth to her is an order. Not a request. Not a plea. An order.

And all Ada can say in return is:

"I'm on it."

She's lost this fight.

Leon and Ashley (and Luis, to an extent) are a team, and Ada isn't part of that team. She sees it in this moment. Ashley is so comfortable in her place at Leon's side that Ada is a non-factor in the equation all together. That's why she wasn't in the lab with them. Ada acted as Luis's substitute, but in the lab, he was still with them.

"All of this -- removing the parasites -- this was Luis?" "Yeah. We're alive thanks to him."

The matching scars that Leon and Ashley end up with as a result of their radiation surgery are different from the matching scars that Leon and Ada have.

Leon and Ada's scars are a symbol that they once carried the same consequences born of the same mistakes.

Leon and Ashley's scars are a symbol that they once carried each other.

And that’s a huge fucking difference.

Ada feels that difference in that moment.

There is no "Who was that woman, anyway?" "She's like a part of me I can't let go" in this version of the story, because Leon has long since let her go.

And so her pettiness comes back. At the very end, she shoots her final shot:

It's a bookend for and a direct callback to what we were talking about earlier:

"Leave the girl. She's lost no matter what. You walk away now, and who knows? Maybe you'll live to meet me again. And then I might get you that 'greeting' you were looking for."

which really meant:

"Leave Ashley. She's not important. If you leave her, you'll finally get to have me. That's what you really want, right?"

and led into:

"Right. How about we continue this discussion another time?"

She's ready to continue the discussion. One last ditch effort to see if all love is lost between them.

Leon's answer is very clear.

The Leon and Ashley Show isn't over, but Ada's role in it is.

Which leaves her to wonder who and what, exactly, she'll be the next time she and Leon meet now that her status as The Love Interest has been completely and utterly usurped.

[sapphire-weapon]

Up to this point in SW, Ada's exposure to Leon has been:

Seeing him during the village fight and then ringing the bell for him

Seeing him getting choked out by Mendez, then watching him stumble his ass over to the gate, unlock it, and head back towards the village

Luis's radio call to him at the start of his castle section

Their very first scene together in his campaign

The "babysitting's tough, huh?" conversation

Seeing him run over to a dying Luis

The "I guess you're not heartless" conversation

That's it.

So, let's explore Ada's feelings as she goes through Separate Ways with regards to Leon, Ashley, and herself.

The very first time Ada hears Leon's voice, it's him teasing Ashley with:

"I wanted to go home, but Ashley had to see this castle first."

The very first time Ada speaks to Leon herself, the first expression of emotion he shows is when she tells him to leave Ashley behind -- and it's anger at her.

The very first time Ada sees Ashley in person, it's this moment ^^^ in the shots.

This is what I mean by SW making the main campaign feel like "The Leon and Ashley Show" from Ada's perspective. Of those seven encounters, four of them have been about Ashley. In fact, the only conversations that Leon and Ada have had up to this point have been about Ashley.

And this happens over and over and over and over again. Ada can't seem to catch Leon at all without Ashley also being in the picture in some way. The boat scene is literally the only conversation they have or moment they share where Ashley doesn't come up at all.

This is what I mean when I say that SW feels like Ada's being forced to bear witness to what her relationship with Leon could have been in Raccoon City if only she'd been honest and genuine with him up front.

The point of having Ada listen in on the "Ashley had to see the castle" line was so that she became aware of what the relationship between Leon and Ashley was actually like. It isn't just business between them; it's warm and playful.

And Ada rejects that, at first. She outright denies it to herself. That's what's really at the heart of her telling Leon to leave Ashley behind -- because Ada, at first, almost doesn't confront Leon at all. She damn near leaves the room before he walks in, but then she thinks better of it at the very last second.

The full line of dialogue of:

"Leave the girl. She's lost no matter what. You walk away now, and who knows? Maybe you'll live to meet me again. And then I might get you that 'greeting' you were looking for."

immediately follows her openly hitting on him ("Not a bad move. Very smooth."), to which he has no reaction. And so she gets more explicit with him. Let's break it down:

"Leave Ashley. She's not important. If you leave her, you'll finally get to have me. That's what you really want, right?"

That's why her actual line isn't framed as a warning. She doesn't double down on it when Leon pushes back on it; her response is: "Right. How about we continue this discussion another time?" It's not about Ashley turning or not turning -- it's not about Leon saving her. It's about Ada offering herself and then feeling "what the fuck" about it when the offer is refused.

But she still denies it to herself. That's why her follow-up line of dialogue once she jumps out of the window is a very coy "See you around, Leon." She still isn't ready to accept that she's been replaced as the focus of his attention and affection -- hence the pettiness of her "Babysitting's tough, huh?" line.

Her attitude only starts to change after Luis's death -- when his dying wish is for her to help Leon. So, Ada puts her pettiness aside and switches from demeaning and belittling Ashley to referring to her as "your friend" instead. It shows a degree of respect while still removing the overt affection from the equation.

But then Krauser runs off with Ashley. Leon's anger boils over, and he shoots Salazar in the face. And now, Ada's reaction is:

But when she finds him right on her heels because he's that fucking pissed and that fucking determined to go after Krauser for Ashley's sake, it still catches her by surprise. It speaks to the depth of Leon's concern and affection for Ashley.

Once again, it reaffirms that Ashley's not just a mission objective to Leon. It's personal, for him.

This leads directly into the boat scene, where Ada tells Leon that his greatest strength is still the love and compassion he has for other people...

... though it's not as if he hears her at all.

The next time Ada sees or hears from Leon, it's her walking in on the "for Luis" scene.

Even though Capcom went out of their way to make sure that Leon and Ashley didn't hold hands because they didn't want people to ship them, because, as we all know, holding hands is a universal sign of romance so that's exactly what they were talking about for sure and hi I'm twelve years old and I don't know how exaggerated anecdotes work what is this? anyway so Leon and Ashley hold hands in this scene even though that's not what Capcom wanted

I mean

Along with the pep talk scene, this is the most intimate scene in the game. Ada is intruding on a very private, vulnerable moment between Leon and Ashley that ends in a promise:

"For Luis."

This is Ada's affirmation that Luis wasn't jerking her around -- he was being genuine about wanting to help Leon and Ashley, and now they're committed to honoring his memory and granting him his dying wish.

And Ada's pettiness finally melts away -- at least, for a time. They have their way of honoring Luis, so now it's time for her to do it her way.

Suddenly, Leon and Ashley's closeness doesn't matter to her anymore -- because it's not about them, and it's not about her. It's about Luis.

Walking out of the comms facility, she hears Ashley successfully fighting off Saddler. Interesting framing here with the jet ski in the foreground.

But interestingly, Ada's focus doesn't fall to her.

There's actually not a single moment in this game where Ada says Ashley's name out loud. Ashley is either "her" or "the girl" or "the president's daughter." No matter how far she comes in this, Ada still can't let go of that last little bit of pettiness. It's still personal for her, and the only reason why Ada helps Ashley at all is because it also helps Leon, which in turn honors Luis.

So, she does do it.

But not for Ashley's sake.

And she isn't about to go out of her way, either.

And then we reach the apex of it all.

Ashley's watching Leon's fight with Saddler with her hands clasped against her chest as though in prayer, as embers float around her like fireflies. This is overtly romantic imagery. I've said this before but: this is so romantic in its imagery and symbolism that it's just straight up on the level of Final Fantasy nonsense.

And not only is Ada forced to reckon with that, but the first and only thing out of Ashley's mouth to her is an order. Not a request. Not a plea. An order.

And all Ada can say in return is:

"On it."

She's lost this fight.

Leon and Ashley (and Luis, to an extent) are a team, and Ada isn't part of that team. She sees it in this moment. Ashley is so comfortable in her place at Leon's side that Ada is a non-factor in the equation all together. That's why she wasn't in the lab with them. Ada acted as Luis's substitute, but in the lab, he was still with them.

"All of this -- removing the parasites -- this was Luis?" "Yeah. We're alive thanks to him."

The matching scars that Leon and Ashley end up with as a result of their radiation surgery are different from the matching scars that Leon and Ada have.

Leon and Ada's scars are a symbol that they once carried the same consequences born of the same mistakes.

Leon and Ashley's scars are a symbol that they once carried each other.

And that’s a huge fucking difference.

Ada feels that difference in that moment.

There is no "Who was that woman, anyway?" "She's like a part of me I can't let go" in this version of the story, because Leon has long since let her go.

And so her pettiness comes back. At the very end, she shoots her final shot:

It's a bookend for and a direct callback to what we were talking about earlier:

"Leave the girl. She's lost no matter what. You walk away now, and who knows? Maybe you'll live to meet me again. And then I might get you that 'greeting' you were looking for."

which really meant:

"Leave Ashley. She's not important. If you leave her, you'll finally get to have me. That's what you really want, right?"

and led into:

"Right. How about we continue this discussion another time?"

She's ready to continue the discussion. One last ditch effort to see if all love is lost between them.

Leon's answer is very clear.

The Leon and Ashley Show isn't over, but Ada's role in it is.

Which leaves her to wonder who and what, exactly, she'll be the next time she and Leon meet now that her status as The Love Interest has been completely and utterly usurped.