#it's debatable whether some should have been playable on CF at all (INGRID INGRID INGRID) but even with that they're like. noticeably worse

[butwhatifidothis]

Who on your side is going to call you out? Literally every recruitable character except Bernadetta and Lindhardt? And you CAN'T objectively say that the route leaves an objectively worse off Fodlan. A lot of the characters have the exact same single endings they do in other routes. Meaning a lot of their endings are nice and happy and hopeful despite the fact they aided in the conquest of a nation. Hell, some single character endings specific to crimson flower STILL end happily despite this. Alois happily moves to remire and becomes a farmer with his family. Mercedes opens up an orphanage. Also you can't really use Felix' single ending as a mark against Crimson flower, seeing as that's also his ending in all his non blue lions endings.

Those quotes aren't actually addressing Byleth's actions beyond said characters being pissed at Byleth. 

The demonic beasts are never mentioned. The fact that you are aiding in conquest and genocide isn't talked about, just the fact that you are on the opposing side. And some of those characters that are pissed at Byleth and questioning them ALSO *conviently* forget those grievances once they're recruited. Suddenly everybody's all for blindly following byleth in their aiding the conquest of fodlann and the potential genocide of the last few nabateans.

So what, is edelgard "im going to assassinate my classmates and immediately get murdered by bandits in that attempt and nemesis did nothing wrong!" Adrestia suddenly master manipulator? Are all the characters just so blindly loyal to byleth that they're willing to ignore their morals? a

You broke down exactly why, no matter how you look at it, villain route or not, CF falls flat! Because inconsistent writing dictates that 3H can't go all the way with making CF/Edelgard too bad! The full scope of Edelgard's actions never being addressed, even off of CF (the Demonic Beasts are never called out, but the use of them is very clearly villainous given what they are, to use one of your examples)! This is why I have issues with CF - not because oh shit you're the bad guy, but in this regard they don't go far enough! This is exactly why my feelings are mixed towards CF, because of these exact flaws within it.

But even with that, there are still some things of what you said I don't quite agree with?

Like, Edelgard's and Hubert's endings apparently don't point to CF being a villain route, but Alois and Mercedes' do point it to not being one? Why are the latter's endings being given more weight than the former's?

"Those quotes aren't actually addressing Byleth's actions beyond said characters being pissed at Byleth."

...Um... yeah they are? Because they're pissed at Byleth for siding with Edelgard and the Empire? They're not just randomly mad at Byleth for no reason - the characters know what Edelgard and the Empire have done, they don't have to go down the laundry list when they express their anger at Byleth joining her/them. When Ignatz says “We can’t place the future of Fódlan in Edelgard’s hands. If you’re allied with the Empire, I have no choice but to fight you," him not specifically laying out every single crime Edelgard has done does not suddenly mean that those crimes aren't what he's referring to. Shamir saying “You still align yourself with the emperor? What a shame. Let’s make this quick. I don’t want the loser to suffer," doesn't mean that she's just peaved at Byleth for no reason. Ingrid’s quote, “You have chosen to assist the Empire, even while knowing of their deeds. I am truly disappointed in you, Professor. Prepare yourself, heel of the Empire! A wretch like you will never be qualified to rule over Fódlan!” very clearly lays it out that it is all that the Empire has done that is the reason why she’s mad at you and why she thinks you’d be a shitty ruler (and if Byleth is shitty for choosing to side with Edelgard, then that inherently means that Edelgard is also shitty).

Why are they mad at Byleth? Why are they criticizing you specifically joining the Empire? Why are none of them saying “Gee Byleth, it’s pretty ass of you to join Claude’s side, you heartless bitch” on VW? Or similar statement towards Byleth on AM and SS? Why is the Empire unique in being called evil, bloody, savage, etc.? It’s because the action of joining the Empire - joining Edelgard - is a bad one, one that throws away morals to chase the false image of “revolution” Edelgard posits. 

So what, is edelgard "im going to assassinate my classmates and immediately get murdered by bandits in that attempt and nemesis did nothing wrong!" Adrestia suddenly master manipulator? Are all the characters just so blindly loyal to byleth that they're willing to ignore their morals?

The answer? Yes. The same way that Byleth is blindingly loyal to Edelgard and throws away their canonical hatred of TWS to follow her, the other characters throw away themselves to blindingly follow Byleth. Byleth places their trust in Edelgard despite all of the horrible things she’s done, and their character becomes worse for it - the same thing happens to the cast that foolishly decide to continue placing their trust in Byleth despite siding with the villain Edelgard. They either stagnate in their character progression or outright regress, the exact same as Byleth, because CF as a route is all about regression. That’s Edelgard’s whole motivation. It’s not moving forward to a new future, it’s going back to how Fodlan used to be - back under complete Imperial control, with a Hresvelg as the one ruler of Fodlan. 

And Edelgard having one shitty plan and being wrong about history doesn’t mean she doesn’t know how to make others look worse than her, how to prop herself up as the hero of the story - we see this from Ladislava, someone who is genuinely completely loyal to Edelgard specifically, that characters genuinely fall for Edelgard’s words. We see this in how she makes Dimitri and Rhea and Claude into these targets that must be destroyed “for the good of Fodlan,” that she can easily shove any and all responsibility for her actions onto her victims. We see this in how she’s just “taking back humanity’s freedom” when she slaughters a heartbroken and maddened Rhea - maddened due to her actions - only to shove humanity under her actually tyrannical rule. Hell, her being ignorant of history again falls back into how CF is partly about ignorance - you’re always ignorant to the depths of your horrific actions due to blind loyalty, so being wrong about history and never being corrected is par for the course.

Where CF falls short is the following: 

the aforementioned endings that always remain the same even on CF, 

where certain characters aren’t given enough attention despite being on CF (Ingrid definitely needed a Felix treatment for specifically this route, since she’s going after the Kingdom directly, for example), 

where even with the idea of the BE getting influenced by the regression of CF they still way too easily side with Edelgard (Ferdinand is by far the worse victim of this), 

where the end result of Fodlan is unification no matter what route you do (more the game overall that suffers from this tbh), 

where the characters don’t mention the depths of Edelgard’s actions off of CF (which is partly why the BE staying with Edelgard on CF comes across poorly, because they never really delve into her actions so them not doing so on CF doesn’t come across very well) - VW is the worst offender of this, as while it makes some sense to have Edelgard be a sympathetic villain on the other routes, doing the same here makes literally no sense (you only know her as a warmonger trying to murder you).

I know this isn’t like, the most popular opinion, but I don’t find it to be an intrinsically bad idea to have the player initially think that they’re not playing a villain route until they go back over the numerous, frankly loud undertones of villainy and evil you help participate in and realize “oh shit wait a minute.” Dragging down characters with you on your path of ignorance and regression? Sounds cool! Playing the other routes and seeing what you essentially look like to all of the people you fight on CF - a heartless conqueror stamping down on all opposition - as you play from the infinitely more heroic POV of the other two lords (+ Byleth’s independent POV) and see Edelgard in the light of a villain (that light the non-recruited/non-CF characters see you in)? Neat! Realizing that you’ve helped a lying, racist, imperialistic warmonger get exactly what she wants as she drags down Fodlan in darkness and tyranny? Interesting! The water is just muddied by poor writing decisions/oversights, but it is very much still (villainous) water. CF is flawed, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t what it is.

But I will ask you this nonnie, if you don’t mind! If you don’t think CF is a villain route, what is it to you? Genuinely curious!