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itsclydebitches · 4 years

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[1] Hi! I hope you don't mind, but can I ask a sorta uncomfortable question? I wanna ship cloqwork because I like their character dynamic, but at the same time I get uncomfortable because when Qrow enrolled at Beacon (at "the right age," as specified by Raven) he would've been 17 - legally not an adult. Ozpin would've had a disproportionate amount of power over him, both as a legal adult and as his teacher.

Hi, Anon!

I apologize in advance that this response is probably going to be all over the place. I’ve got a lot of thoughts about this and very little ability right now to put them into a cohesive order. So we’re just chucking it all out lol.

First, there’s absolutely no need to apologize for being on anon. That’s what it’s there for! I think tumblr has developed a view of the anonymous option that, on the whole, isn’t particularly useful. In our efforts to call out those who are sending flames/hate under the comfort of anonymity (which you obviously are not), there’s no need for anyone to “prove” themselves by going off of it. You’re using anon because you (justifiably) fear how the fandom might react to these questions. I often use anon because I abandoned my “main” account years ago and dislike sending messages from it. There’s a huge range of reasons why someone might want to be on anon and ultimately it doesn’t matter why we use the tool that’s been provided to us. It’s there, so never feel bad about going anon for any reason :)

Onto the ozqrow! Or yes, onto the cloqwork. I learned “ozqrow” first so it’s pretty embedded in my head, but I agree that “cloqwork” is the more sophisticated of the two ;) Anyway, yes. There are potentially ways that we can view the relationship as unhealthy… with the key word there being potentially. AKA, as headcanons. No, Qrow wouldn’t have been an adult when he entered Beacon, but who’s to say a relationship began then? Some fans might like to imagine that despite the real world issues attached. Others—like you and me—would not. The important thing is that we both have the space to achieve whatever interpretation of the relationship we please. Far as I can tell, Qrow is 37 at the youngest. Four years at Beacon (17-20), 15 years after Summer’s death (35), and then roughly 2 years of in-canon present time (37). Realistically, he’s probably older than that. Based on the relationship dynamics it seems that Tai didn’t date Summer until he broke up with Raven and given Yang’s age compared to Ruby’s, that adds two years. So Qrow is probably around 39. Even that’s assuming that Raven had Yang right after Beacon. If she didn’t we could push the timeline another year or two, putting Qrow in his early 40’s. I lay all this out to demonstrate that… that’s a lot of time. How old “should” Qrow be before he enters a relationship with someone? Obviously that answer differs from individual to individual, but let’s say for the sake of argument that he should be at least 25. That puts him 5 years out of Beacon, potentially older than when Raven had Yang, and roughly 6 years older than most of our main ships right now (Blake/Yang, Jaune/Pyrrha, Ren/Nora etc.) where fans argue very strongly that at 19 they’re already adults and are able to make informed decisions, be it about relationships or world-shattering secrets. So we’re already holding Qrow to stricter standards than other characters and that still leaves roughly 15 years for him and Ozpin to start something, all of which is time that takes place outside of the Teacher/Student dynamic. It’s a choice to prioritize “But he was his headmaster for 4 years” over “But they were equals for 2 decades.”

Now granted, there’s more to this relationship than just Qrow’s own age. I’ve also seen people bring up the age gap and, more recently, Ozpin’s “manipulation” of Qrow. In regards to the former, we simply have to acknowledge that Ozpin is screwed in that regard. Everyone is younger than him. Almost the entire cast. At some point nearly everyone we meet will have, at some point, been a child while Ozpin is an adult simply by virtue of Ozpin being a reincarnating wizard who has already lived at least a thousand years. The only exceptions to this are Salem, the Gods, or Jinn, all of which are more “problematic” partners to my mind. Which again, isn’t to say no one can ship them together, just that it seems ridiculous to me that—if we’re really going to “justify” an in-canon relationship—we’d prioritize “Salem and Ozpin are the same age that’s so much healthier!” over “Salem abused Ozpin, killed their kids, and has hunted him for years on end. That’s... kind of not great!” It’s a matter of what parts of each relationship we choose to emphasize. And ozqrow is far from the only ship to grapple with this. In the witcher fandom I adore both Geralt/Jaskier and Geralt/Regis. Both of those ships have “issues” in regards to age. Is Jaskier not allowed to be with Geralt because he’s in his 30s and Geralt is in his 80s? Is Geralt not allowed to be with Regis because he’s in his 80s and Regis is in his 400s? When we talk about fantasy series we’re talking about species/races/abilities that are, obviously, fantastic. They don’t exist. Which means that real world concerns can’t perfectly map onto these scenarios. The question is not “Is a 1,000 year age gap problematic?” but rather “Are these both consenting adults who are in a position to make their own informed, romantic decisions?” To which we answer for ozqrow: yes. Unless we specifically imagine that the relationship began when Qrow was just a student but again, that’s purely headcanon. Emphasizing that non-canonical imagining of how a relationship might have started over the canonical years of working together as equal peers makes no more sense than going, “Yeah but there was a time when Regis was an adult and Geralt was just a kid, so if they’d met then it would have been super unhealthy so you shouldn’t ship them :/” They didn’t meet when Geralt was a kid. In the same way, Ozpin and Qrow didn’t start a relationship when Qrow was a kid for the simple reason that they have no canonical romance at all. That puts the power entirely in the viewers’ hands to imagine when/how such a relationship occurs.

Which leaves us with second issue mentioned: power dynamics and Ozpin’s “manipulation.” Take everything said above and apply it to this point too. That power dynamic only exists if we imagine a relationship while they’re headmaster and student. Which you can! Plenty of people want to write/read about such “problematic” stuff. That’s partly what fandom is for. But again, if that’s not your cup of tea there’s no reason to prioritize those 4 years over the 20 years we get later. I have heard some people say that the relationship is indefinitely imbalanced because of Ozpin’s age/power/leadership/whatever but… that simply makes no sense to me. Or rather, it seems hypocritical. Does that mean it’s “problematic” for Weiss to be with Ruby? After all, Ruby is the leader of their team and calls all the shots. What if Weiss feels like she can’t say no to her?? It’s terribly unhealthy. Does that mean Weiss can’t be with Blake? She was racist, after all, and comes from such a place of privilege. I’m not sure Blake is educated enough to hold her own with Weiss. Does this mean Blake can’t be with Yang? Blake comes from a very rich and powerful family whereas Yang is just a country girl… what if Blake uses that power against her somehow? Does that mean that Nora can’t be with Ruby? Or again, Weiss with Ruby? I mean, Nora is homeless and Weiss has been cut off from the Schnee line, so they might stay in a relationship purely out of fear of being abandoned--super unhealthy. These are all revised versions of things I’ve heard applied to ozqrow: Qrow shouldn’t be with Ozpin because Ozpin is his leader (Ruby/Weiss), because Qrow grew up in an “uneducated” tribe whereas Ozpin is clearly so sophisticated (Blake/Weiss), because Ozpin has power and connections that Qrow could never match (Blake/Yang), because Ozpin is tied to the life Qrow has built and breaking up supposedly threatens that. Which means he can’t ever break up. Which means Qrow is trapped. Which means it’s unhealthy (Nora/Ruby or Ruby/Weiss). They’re all warped, assumption based arguments that are only taken seriously when they’re applied to a ship that people are already inclined to dislike. The takeaway is that every relationship has power dynamics and every relationship has the potential to be “problematic.” Literally everyone. Give me any two people and I can spin some yarn about how one holds too much power over the other for the relationship to be healthy. Which isn’t to say that real power dynamics don’t exist that should be avoided (like a teacher/student relationship as you point out), only that fans are inclined to extend that past the point of logic in an effort demonize ships they don’t like. Someone having trauma in their past (which, again, is everyone at this point in the series) is not the same “power dynamic” as an adult grooming a child (which, again again, Ozpin didn’t do). So when we’re left with the acknowledgement that any relationship has the potential to be unhealthy, we have to ask… is it? And the answer is no. As you say, “We all know that canonically Ozpin ISN’T that kind of person.” That’s what trumps every headcanon and negative assumption. I could headcanon/assume that a Weiss/Blake relationship would be horrific because Weiss would be a racist ass to Blake and Blake would only stay with her because she’s determined not to “run away” from something again… but we don’t see evidence for that on screen and it literally never happens. In the same way, some fans like to headcannon/assume that a Qrow/Ozpin relationship would be horrific because Ozpin would use his power over Qrow in various ways… but we don’t see evidence for that on screen and it literally doesn’t happen.

If anything, post-Volume 6 I’d say there’s more of a potential problem with Qrow being with Ozpin. Meaning yes, as you point out Qrow has a lot of stuff in his past that makes him potentially vulnerable—toxic family environment, drinking problem, etc.—but we learn irrevocably in Volume 6 that so does Ozpin. He was manipulated by the Gods into accepting this “impossible” task. He was in an abusive relationship with Salem and, quite literally, didn’t survive it. He’s lived a thousand years of unimaginable trauma. He arguably was also an alcoholic at one point given the drinking we saw in Jinn’s flashback. He’s been betrayed time and time again by his allies… of which Qrow is a part. Arguably Ozpin has even more vulnerabilities than Qrow but both characters are in a position to hurt one another with those vulnerabilities: Ozpin could play on Qrow’s desire for family and Qrow could play on Ozpin’s need for support. That “could” is, again, important because it’s mostly headcanon speculation that chooses to see the relationship as inevitably negative… with the exception that canonically Qrow is the only one who we see using these vulnerabilities against Ozpin. The fandom likes to assume that Ozpin “manipulated” Qrow all these years but we simply never see that happening. In true RWBY fashion, RT gave Qrow a very damning sounding line—I gave up my life for you—and then let the fandom assume really negative connotations. In reality though what that line translated to was, “You trusted me despite the fact that I entered your school to learn how to kill you and your allies, then taught me how to be a better person and gave me a purpose in life: to help others, even if I’ve now learned I can’t fix it all in one lifetime.” Like yeah, what kind of horrible “manipulation”?? Ozpin’s supposed power over Qrow has only helped and benefited Qrow, despite how Volume 6 tried to paint that relationship as suddenly negative. What is said doesn’t align with what we’ve seen. In contrast, we do see Qrow using Ozpin’s vulnerabilities against him. He does betray him. He does punch him into a tree. He does help perpetuate those same lies to Ironwood. He does absolve Ruby without offering the same to Ozpin. He does then plant the seed—with absolutely no evidence—that he had a hand in Summer’s death. To be frank, Qrow has treated Ozpin like shit lately and it’s one of the (many) reasons why I hate Volume 6 and 7. Ozpin is coded as the perpetrator, but we never see him taking advantage of Qrow. Meanwhile, Qrow is coded as the victim, but we do see him taking advantage of Ozpin’s vulnerability. One character has helped the other flourish, the other has abandoned him in his greatest time of need. Right now I’d argue that the in-canon ship potential is “problematic” due to Qrow… but that doesn’t mean any of that has to impact fandom shipping. For me personally, I prefer to keep to Volume 1-5 material or AUs up until Qrow (hopefully) apologizes for his actions. Then I might feel inclined to write canon-based ozqrow content for Volume 8, or whenever we re-establish that respect (with AU elements involving giving Ozpin his own body. The Oscar situation is a whole other thing I’m not going to delve into here. Suffice to say, I’m considering Qrow and Ozpin as separate people right now). But even if they never make up, even if Qrow, or Ozpin, or both of them end up being completely toxic for one another, that doesn’t stop anyone from imagining something better for them in fandom. Fandom is transformative for a reason.

All of which isn’t to say that people have to like the ship (obviously) only that in the same vein it means that no one has to justify liking the ship either. Again, for me personally, I usually need some in-canon, healthy dynamic to work with in order to enjoy a ship. It’s why I love ozqrow because we did see that for 5 volumes and may indeed see it again. In contrast, it’s why I don’t love pairings like Yen/Geralt or Bakugo/Izuku because I don’t feel like I have a healthy foundation to work from and, for me, a healthy foundation is usually necessary (with some exceptions like my childhood love of Erik/Christine). But all those are preferences. They don’t—and shouldn’t—dictate anyone else’s enjoyment. Which is the problem when people don’t just assume that ozqrow is inherently unhealthy (which I hope I’ve somewhat helped to disprove here) but likewise assume that that’s necessary for anyone else to ship them. For you that potential coding of teacher/student and power dynamics might outweigh otherwise liking their dynamic and that’s fine! That’s a preference! But a preference doesn’t give anyone the right to throw shade at others for enjoying something different.

Which finally brings me back to the hypocrisy in all this. Ozqrow (and Blake/Yang) are the only ships I’ve come across in this fandom where the fans have to continually “prove” why their ships are valid. Not as potentially canonical relationships, but just as fandom-based ships. Just as fictional preferences we enjoy as a hobby. It says something about the fandom’s bias that we can watch Ilia, on screen, be one of the bad guys, kidnap Blake, try to murder her parents, try to ship her off to her abuser… and despite all this the fandom went, “Oh yeah. I could see them together.” But Ozpin and Qrow, who have supported one another for the vast majority of the series, suddenly need to provide receipts for how healthy their relationship is and if you don’t do a good enough job proving that, it’s cancelled. That’s messed up. None of these ships are “bad.” Ilia/Blake shippers should go wild with that potential! It’s just an issue of comparison and applying different, rigged standards to certain ships. This is a fandom where people ship the heroes with the likes of Cinder, Roman, Raven, Ilia, Salem, Tyrian… tons of killers and would-be killers, characters who have done objectively horrifying things. But it’s when two loving adult men might get together that it’s suddenly too “problematic”? That says more about that bias than it does the ship. For you, anon, if I’ve failed to alleviate those concerns and that coding means ozqrow isn’t really your thing? Great! You can drop the ship, involve yourself only in AUs, or anything in between. That’s how fandom should work. The problem lies not in asking polite questions about how we might interpret a relationship in canon (which as said in the original reblog I greatly enjoy doing!) but rather in some fans’ tendency to demand a moral standard from a ship that none other is held to and then when fans inevitably fail to meet that standard, they’re criticized for daring to like the ship in the first place. Ultimately whether you end up shipping/liking ozqrow is up to you—which is precisely where the power should be. In your hands, not the hands of someone on tumblr trying to make others feel guilty.

#rwby #ozqrow #rwde #mymetas #Anonymous

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