#ive played the role of the good emotional support eldest daughter my entire life. why didnt they think it would blow up at some point

[diegoshargrieves]

listening to my parents talk about me is so fucking funny. "she's dealt with us for so long that at this point she's done. she's mentally checked out from having to give a shit about anyone. can you believe how corruptible she is just because she's almost an adult and she thinks that we're not her problem anymore?"

like man you are literally so close. so fucking close.

[fymagnificentwomcn]

Leyla Feray was a perfect "Ayşe Sultan", Farah Zeynep is not that pretty plus the role of a sultana didn't suit her and of course Farya as a character sucks ! Still bitter about Tims's casting for Turhan Hatice and for how they portrayed her and she only appeared in 3 episodes Ibrahim's reign deserved its own season

I agree Anon. Harem didn’t play an important role during Murad’s reign, so to be honest I would be satisfied with having only Ayşe as a developed character. Harem during Ibrahim’s role played a HUGE role and the fact that we didn’t get all the harem dynamics of that period explored properly is my huge regret and I can bet show’s creators feel the same because they obviously planned for Season 3 devoted wholly to Ibrahim’s reign.. but such is Turkish TV market now and they still delivered a story of Kösem’s life that made sense, which is more you can tell of many TV shows nowadays, even those with huge budget and safe position like Game of Thrones that HBO would have likely prolonged as much as they could, but D&D were certain they had enough time to wrap everything up properly lol. So in those conditions,not knowing when they may get axed (and Turkish shows are filmed like two weeks in advance only), I still appreciate what they did… Now that my initial expectations about whole season of Turhan/Kösem rivalry, Ibrahim’s harem, Turhan of my dreams are more in past, I’m more able to appreciate what we got in that conditions eh.

Devoting so much time to Farya and Murya was HUGE mistake, since it didn’t save the ratings by bringing FZA’s fanbase etc., and it truly stole a lot of precious screentime later. The pacing issues are in MYK from start – back in S1 they introduced Beren earlier than planned and then rushed to end S1 with Kösem becoming regent because they weren’t sure they would get renewed. Maybe it’s crying over spilt milk now, especially since they are obviously aware that they had made a huge mistake – Farya’s screentime was clearly strongly reduced after 10 episodes and after she was removed, she was practically never mentioned again, like they pretended she had never existed lol.

Mhm I don’t think actresses’ appearance is of importance here, sultanas were normal girls, I know it is often assumed that they had to be pretty to captivate the padişah, but it was not always the case - Hürrem apparently wasn’t that conventionally pretty, but managed to charm Suleiman so much regardless. And each sultan had his own preferences. There isn’t something like “a sultana look”. I hear people talking “this actress is too pretty to play a subject, not a sultana” and I’m like ???? Royal blood doesn’t make you pretty either.

I think Leyla was absolutely fine. I liked her cutesy image in contrast to Murad’s violent nature. You can see why this girl “brought him peace” and why he ultimately destroyed her… just episode before she makes the big mistake and helps Gülbahar out, Murad threatens her to become her nightmare after Farya told him about her suspicions. She was soo scared, she was willing to do everything just not to face Mu/rat’s /spelling intentional/ wrath. And then she regretted what had done so much when she heard about people who suffered in the fire and wanted to fight Gülbahar as mother of Murad’s kids and his woman… and poor thing ultimately got exposed for wanting to fix things… #AyseDeservedBetter

I’m not satisifed with the Turhan we got, but after reading more stuff about Kösem vs Turhan conflict I’m now against the “Turhan was innocent cookie, who only jumped to her son’s defence” thing – it’s a clear example of “history being written by winners” thing. Turhan was definitely very good at propaganda – relationship between her and Ibrahim was surely tense and full of mutual dislike, and Mehmed ascending the throne and Ibrahim being dethroned surely was a good thing for her – yet in correspondence to statesmen that she wanted to bring to her side she described herself “as poor suffering widow, who just wants to punish those who killed her beloved husband”, among which she meant Kösem. There was even an occurrence when one of statesmen supporting Turhan went to Kösem to accuse her of killing Sultan Ibrahim and putting all blame on her, which reportedly shook Kösem very much. While Kösem likely did make moves to dethrone Mehmed, it’s very possible that the poisoning thing was invented by Turhan and her people to rally support. Reports put blame on “misinformation” on Suleiman Aga, who was treated as person inciting the showdown, but we know Suleiman Aga served Turhan, and it was a natural thing that servants of Imperial figures were blamed because nobody dared to accuse the actual Valide.

Turhan as Valide Sultan did not only manage harem, but was involved in state matters and the double rule often made it harder for Kösem to stabilise Empire. Turhan wasn’t deprived of being Valide Sultan; Kosem’s position was simply new & unprecedented and allowed her to be regent. While mothers began to play the role of regent recently (Kösem for Murad, Halime unofficially for Mustafa, Handan as co-regent together with Ahmed’s lala, even Mehmed III leaving the affairs in Safiye’s hands when he went on campaign to Hungary), there was no law on this and previously e.g. there was more inclination for Grand Vizier in this role.

In the end, they were both morally grey because while Kösem likely didn’t plan to poison Mehmed, of course there was always risk of him losing his life if any problems ensued following deposition, as the Ibrahim case showed.

Still, the innocent cookie defender of her son Turhan vs. evil hag Kösem narrative is not the true one.

We also must remember that:

Discretion prevented Ottoman writers from criticizing royal mothers (they did not record the hostile barbs directed by Ottoman statesmen at queen mothers and favorites which made their way into European accounts), but they did not hesitate to employ invective in he case of lesser women of the sultan’s harem. Naima, so careful to defend the young queen mother Turhan, criticized other concubines of the “mad” İbrahim with relish.

Taken from: Leslie Peirce, The Imperial Harem: Women and Sovereignty in the Otoman Empire.

I’ve found some evidence for Turhan being groomed by Kösem and Turhan’s involvement in politics even during Ibrahim’s reign (namely in connection with the Crete war), so while we don’t know much about the relationship between the two women before Mehmed’s reign, there is some evidence supporting MYK’s direction. Leslie Peirce states that Kösem groomed Turhan and Thys-Senocak mentions that Atike chose and trained her.

However, as a new slave woman in the palace, a gift of Kör Süleyman Pasha to the valide sultan Kösem, she had been trained by Atike Sultan, a sister of Murad IV, and groomed by Kösem, who presented her to her son.

Taken from: Leslie Peirce, The Imperial Harem: Women and Sovereignty in the Otoman Empire. Peirce also reiterates that Kösem groomed Turhan in her short article entitled Gender and Sexual Propriety in Ottoman Royal Women’s Patronage.

Training by Atike could be also on Kösem’s request, though we cannot say for certain Atike was Kösem’s daughter, but yet again Kösem seemed to pretty much take care of whole dynasty, not only her own children. It is interesting because the position of the mother of eldest son’s gained importance due to switch to seniority and we know for certain Turhan wasn’t Ibrahim’s favourite consort – but maybe again he was attracted to her at first and the relationship deteriorated later. Due to her being mother of eldest son, Turhan had to be aware that being Valide is in store for her, and Kösem also had to accept the fact.

The fact is that with four episodes the showrunners decided to focus more on the already established characters and Turhan got pretty much sacrificed for it – after all, it was Kösem’s story. I get what they did for abridged story purposes, but what I saw on screen did not reflect my imaginations of historical Turhan.

In the end, MYK Turhan represented an extreme version of a person brought up in Ottoman harem. She was completely cold and almost entirely devoid of human emotions, save in some scenes with her children or her sadness upon Ibrahim preferring other concubines. She was truly unscrupulous and desperate to get to the highest top aka becoming regent for her son, which meant he had to become padişah while he was still a minor. She truly wanted to have it all, even if she had a lot compared to other harem girls – she was a chief haseki with high position given to her by her mother-in-law, who truly treated her exceptionally compared to other Valides we saw – she shared her power with her, taught her political stuff and introduced her to political world, involving her in her own affairs and even taking her to secret councils with her. Kösem was undoubtedly aware that  in light of Ibrahim’s illness she had to keep the mother of eldest prince satisifed&feeling safe because padişah like Ibrahim was an easy target for deposition. Not only Turhan had safe position due to seniority succession rules – Kösem clearly supported her and wanted her to be her successor, e.g. backed her up in the Zarife conflict. Yes, Ibrahim had other favourites, but he was a weak sultan and he wasn’t interested in this stuff at all – he just wanted to have fun with other girls and ignored Turhan, but he wasn’t politically involved enough to try to prevent Turhan from becoming next Valide because he simply didn’t give a damn most of the time.

Turhan’s going against Kösem was a huge & risky gamble, also for her son.  It’s one thing to never trust anyone fully and be on your guard, and another to go on removing everyone, so whole rule is in your hands. While we know that relations between Ibrahim&Turhan were tense, there wasn’t any repeated pattern of abuse against her or their son – Ibrahim’s outburst and throwing Mehmed justifiably shook Turhan up, but it was clear it was one-time incident that stemmed more from Ibrahim’s illness than any sort of malice or sadism. He mostly simply ignored Turhan and didn’t want to spend time in her company. Perhaps Ibrahim being a weak padişah was also why Turhan looked at him with contempt because she couldn’t accept how this man stood higher in hierarchy than her, which wounded her pride additionally. Thus said, if her primary motive had been as she said fear of Ibrahim, I don’t think she would have gone against Kösem. Kösem was after all the person who defended her to Ibrahim, tried to calm him down with regards to Turhan and she obviously supported Turhan as next Valide. Additionally, when Kösem actually controlled Ibrahim and his behaviour – later Atike didn’t care, people who were trying to use him and make him crazier for their purposes achieved their goal. Turhan purposefully wanted to make him crazier and crazier to dethrone him and now she was in the palace without her biggest former supporter. Ibrahim was definitely in far worse mental condition after Kösem’s exile and Kemankeş’ removal. We got the taste of the danger when Ibrahim threatened to strangle Mehmed during the coup – and then we finally saw fear in Turhan’s eyes. But it was she who allowed the situation to boil down to this. Turhan’s backstabbing to Kösem wasn’t only a betrayal to a person who always supported her&did a lot to her (and it was something even Ibrahim highlighted after Kemankeş’ “execution” and since he also had beef with his mother at that point, it’s hard to take his words as biased), but also her sacrificing whole nation due to striving to make Ibrahim’s reign fail so much that he would be undoubtedly deposed.

Turhan’s final win isn’t so much a triumph of very well-thought-out long-term strategy, but luck, totally unscrupulous nature, not taking into account that any bystanders might be harmed, and Kösem making a fatal mistake in the end. Until the last stand, Kösem always managed to ultimately outsmart her, and Turhan’s final victory is only due to raw force, Kösem making a fatal mistake&Kuşçu’s betrayal for reasons Kösem didn’t deserve.

 In the end, Turhan and her people represented raw power which adheres to no rules or honour. Not only did they kill so many  innocent people, but also showed no rules in the final stand – Kösem is strangled on the harem floor and her body is plundered (a historical fact, sadly), and Turhan only stays on balcony with devilish smile over the slaughtered palace. Köprülü does not face the elderly Kemankeş himself, but waits until his people defeat him to slice his throat. Haci is also murdered in unnecessarily cruel way by having his neck twisted in front of Tuhan bearing her stone cold face as she usually does. Turhan was presented as pretty much extreme product of that system – someone who is always coldly calculating, showing little human emotions (maybe only towards her kids) and only focused on achieving one’s goal without any scruples, and is unable to bond with anyone other than her kids. Same with people surrounding her, there are no strong, touching & genuine relationships like in Kösem’s team, which is based on loyalty that may mean even paying with death for it. There’s strong friendship between Haci & Kösem, same with Kemankeş and Deli Hüseyin, Kösem and Kemankeş deeply and truly love each other until the end, Hüseyin also prefers to die than to support Turhan. Even Lalezar’s “betrayal” is only about not letting an innocent child die, not wanting to support Turhan or switch sides for her personal gain. In a way, Turhan functions as some symbol of end of Empire, same with the depressing final shots, which is also accentuated in Kösem’s final monologue: ‘The lights have gone out, no right, no left, no death, no back, no forward, no top, no bottom (…) ” . I can see the rationale – it was first and foremost Kösem’s story, moreover a story that needed to be abridged.

However, as I said, Turhan is a real-life historical figure that actually did good things for the Empire, continued Kösem’s legacy and had her achievements, that’s why historical Turhan can never be simply a destructive force in my mind, and it’s probably the highest divergence between historical figure and show figure I have in my mind as far as MY&MYK are concerned.

We see some glimpses of Turhan actually taking her responsibilities seriously in the final episode – she decides to spare Mehmed’s brothers (which actually serves pretty much as plot twist taking into account how her character has been portrayed) and declares she intends to take care of the state. Ironically, while Kösem paid for politically training Turhan & introducing her to political world with her life, at least even her ultimate enemy wanted to honour her legacy & obey anti-fratricide law & was prepared for ruling. It was a posthumous win for Kösem here.

Of course the way historical Turhan took power from Kösem was questionable – it was full of brutality, purges, and it’s hard to imagine it was all without knowledge of her and her closest associates. /Still we know that Turhan likely didn’t kill harem girls that served Kösem, but got them married off instead as Kumrular writes in her Kösem biography/. However, she also proved capable in taking care of state and dynasty and since Mehmed was pretty much an obedient momma’s boy, she had much easier task than Kösem to for example persuade him not to kill his brothers.. honestly, try to control someone like Murad, it was a huge success Kösem managed to save Ibrahim.

I think that the portrayal of Turhan and her people may stem from not only brutal purges that followed Kösem’s death, but also from the period after Turhan appointed Köprülü the Grand Vizier – Peirce compares some of his methods to Murad’s and this period to Murad’s reign. While it was Köprülü who used bloody methods, we can guess that Turhan would have not let him stay GV if she had not accepted it. It is curious how Turhan/Murad emerged a pretty popular crackship in MYK… I was always like “they gave us Turhan who seems like a perfect match for Murad”.. just that her ruthlessness does not stem from anger, but more from cold detachment (fire and ice LMAO). I know some like to refer to Turhan as “Iron Lady”, so I suppose it was  what MYK creators intended. /There is of course some anger in her too - when Ibrahim told her that she was just a coward hiding under his mother’s skirts… you just knew she would NEVER let it slide and prove to him & the rest of the world she didn’t need Kösem to stay on top./

The more I think the more I’d really love to see Müge Boz as Turhan, since Turhan wasdescribed as pretty unassuming and that was also why she was able to rally supporters. It would be cool to see Kösem facing a girl looking like young her, but not innocent… yet using her innocent image. And again we should have seen more of her showing care for state. I’m actually glad we didn’t get the simple Kösem turns into Safye and encounters an innocent Anastasia that we all expected. Now I think we needed something more complex, and as I mentioned it Kösem truly didn’t turn into Safiye, while many of Turhan’s actions (like mass slaughter in harem) resemble Safiye more – yet later her son is truly in danger, so there’s some rationale in that and we see some of Kösem’s legacy in her declaration to spare Mehmed’s brothers and take care of the state. 

Likely it was intentional to make Turhan so much like the opposite of innocent Nasya.

But in the end, while there are hints of Kösem legacy being preserved (Turhan clearly wants to obey anti-fratricide law), Turhan pretty much served as a symbol of future fall of Empire because the final images of slaughtered people and her smirking on balcony in her slay kween (pretty pretentious) attire, accompanied by the above mentioned monologue, pretty much give a glimpse of apocalypse. /And LBR she claimed she had started the whole conflict for her son… then why the fuck she stands shouting to “bend the knee or die” & “show no mercy” or grins on the balcony instead of sitting with her son or at least checking up on him?/

It’s kinda fitting end for Kösem story, where she was the protagonist, especially when we see how yellow filter & fairytale elements from first episodes of MYK (which gradually become less bright) to the total darkness and atmosphere of doom of final episode. Still, as I said, Turhan Sultan is a historical figure that deserves more.

In a way, we were by default robbed of a satisfying depiction of Turhan by the mere fact that Ibrahim’s regin was abridged to 4 episodes – we should have got her early days in harem, her growing up etc., but I think at this point I decided to stop crying over spilt milk, I think, even though the mere fact that some fake princess got 22 episodes and Turhan 4 is always gonna hurt.

- Joanna