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thirdmagic · 6 years

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giant rambly walls of text post of headcanons and theories and general thoughts on david, roman and solomon ft lots of extrapolation

first of all, i basically think of archer david as like... if 'lazy cheerful mcdonlads loving manchild in a yukata dad' kerry got summoned into the body of his child self and went 'oh wow this is before Everything in my life went horribly wrong it almost feels like all that never happened!!' and got into it enough to try to recreate what he was like as a child. which i realize is a hilariously weird mental image but a close enough comparison. it's just in this case the difference isn't '30 year old and 10 year old (at most)' but '60-70 something very old man and late teens/early twenties'. on the surface level this david is much more David The Humble Nobody Shepherd Boy Who Beat A Giant then David The Anointed Powerful King, because most of the stuff this version draws on in his NP and skills are from this aspect of him. but it's also clearly very much not the same case as other younger/child servants. most younger versions are aware of their older selves and what happens to them in the future but aren't those people and haven't personally experienced these futures. but nearly everything david does talk about, experiences he calls back to, people he talks about, is stuff from his time on the throne. he talks about this time as something that happened to him personally. so this isn't really baby shepherd david even though his servant container draws on these aspects of him, it's David The King in the body of baby shepherd david.

but what i find most interesting, is that he seems to really play into this image/role... like it's a deliberate choice/preference on his part or something consciously cultivated. there's what he says is tamacat's interlude, but also his my room line that outright has him saying 'sure i used to be a king, but don't worry about it, it's whatever, i'm just a shepherd now and i want to take this chance as a servant to be just that'. the impression is that he's very much trying to distance himself from his king-self and that entire part of his life which is... in its own way a lost cause and he probably does this knowing it's a lost cause, given that's what he spent the majority of his life doing and how everything he calls back to is from that life. that shepherd boy is just not the person he is anymore and hasn't been for a long time, but i think that's why he prefers to be summoned in this specific physical form and in this specific class that draws on this part of his life- the servant container/class makes it easier to act the part, to put that undesirable aspect of himself aside. so long as he's not summoned as a king he doesn't need to act like one nor feel like he has the responsibilities of one. and being a king clearly kind of sucked as far as he’s concerned.

now i mentioned before that biblical david is super kerrycore so while i don't know how much fate would even want to incorporate this side of the original version... idk, i'm really into the idea and think it's just potentially super interesting to take this parallel full circle and for david the king to be the figurative equivalent to cold blooded assassin magus killer kerry. it gives extra weight to why he'd want to just put aside this part of his life and lean in fully into a whole other role/identity that has nothing to do with kingship and why he acts Extra carefree and frivolous: because he spent most of his life as everything but that. because he couldn't be this way so long as he acted as king, because the responsibility and the role demanded that he had to suppress this aspect of himself and also that he act in ways he might not have really wanted to even as he understood that it was needed. he was good at doing the dirty and unpleasant stuff and he understood the necessity of it; he had a talent for it, in a sense, even if it wasn't a talent for something he liked or enjoyed. it goes well with him talking about how he dislikes battle in conjunction to how he was a very military focused leader-- something he never wanted to engage in or do, but that the role of the king demanded of him.

because his biblical depiction is from the very start, from the first goliath story, more of a cunning politician and warrior than anything else. he's subtle, sly and calculating, not afraid to get his hands dirty and do undignified things to get where he needs to, and very conscious and aware of all that goes around him, including how he's seen by other people and how he needs to act as if he were in front of an audience. he finds creative and subtle ways to get around most problems, but he also knows when a problem is best solved violently and doesn't hesitate to commit to that solution. (most unlike fate david though, he's also super hot-tempered and fairly quick to Stabbity Stab if someone pissed him off lmao and has to be talked down at least once from Doing A Murder)

this is compounded by how, in general, the narrative very very often leaves us in the dark about what he's really feeling or thinking in a lot of pivotal moments and leaves us often to wonder about his sincerity and true motivations. his story in the bible is essentially the unraveling of this kind of hyper competent and skilled person as he gets more and more exposed to the reader emotionally and personally, as we see more and more of his weakness and vulnerability and his real flawed and imperfect core is revealed. the narrative is at once both critical of him while still remaining firmly on his side and sympathetic towards him, and the main thing that keeps him sympathetic as a character in this way, through his darkest moments and most questionable behavior, is that he's 1) unquestionably devoted to God and nearly flawlessly pious, which is for obvious reasons a significant virtue for both the original writer and the original audience the narrative was meant for, and 2) very good at handling criticism, accepting that he made mistakes, and making amends/fixing things when he needs to. which he does a lot of.

so basically, yeah: ruthless stabby killer who's a clever and sly pragmatist, but also a Sad and vulnerable dad. that's what i meant lmao that's the exact same aesthetic as kerry.

and something you'll find pointed out very, very often by any literary analysis or any analysis at all, is his humanity; it's something that can be ascribed to many, many biblical characters but is applied to him as a defining trait in particular. and that's.... even better and gets even more interesting for fate david specifically when pitted against solomon, the perfect, flawless inhuman king. there's a consistent thematic thread in fate of being an ideal vs being a human being, especially for kings and other types of leaders, and in this context i think you can do a lot with david as someone who, instead of giving in/fully committing to one at the expense of the other, went for a balance between the two-- and struggled with that balance. he succeeded in many ways as a king and was good at it, but in some ways he lost that struggle because he failed to find that balance and gave in to humanity at the worst of times, and it's those moments which led to both his biggest mistakes and his biggest tragedies. it's interesting to me because it's different from the patterns that characters like kerry and saber establish, and it offers a perspective on this dilemma that also explains why people like them commit to this all-or-nothing approach to it.

and it's also interesting to me to compare to solomon, but especially the fact that when put in context-- that god sees david and decides to make solomon the way he is seemingly in response-- the implication is one of a background 'story' that's very consistent to an interesting pattern about god in genesis: that he's always trying out new ways to interact with this world he created through humanity and having to retry after each one attempt doesn’t quite go well. he started with adam and eve and they disobeyed him, when he tried to with all of humanity and when they turned away from him and degenerated morally he had to destroy them all with the flood. then he tried to create this connection/interaction through just one person and then just one nation from this person, and that's how he came to form the covenant with us. humans are constantly ruining his plans and he's constantly having to adjust and try or test new things. and i like the idea that he's also trying to do something similar with the kings and leaders he appointed to this chosen nation; he tried with the judges who were all scattered leaders that couldn't unite the tribes, then tried with saul who was just kind of a weak leader and king in general and couldn't handle it, tried with david, and then looked at him and went, okay, i did pretty well with this one, he's served me well but it's still not what i need. so, god reasons, if his problem is that his humanity was what got in the way then clearly the problem is that i look to humans as my representatives in the world. so clearly i need someone who can interact with humans and the human world as one of them but won't have their flaws. and so that gives us some background to and explains solomon's circumstances.

now in fgo itself the exact circumstances of solomon's birth and why he was born as he was are kind of vague, and i haven't seen anything in materials or other canon sources to elaborate (Dark Nasu, Show Me The Forbidden Solomon Backstory) but the one, somewhat cryptic line we're given to explain is that he was offered by david to god to make him into a greater king than he was. that's not exactly what happened in the original story but not really wrong either. it's a fairly legit and logical take on what happened there imo. what we're told is that god looked at baby solomon and went 'oh yeah, this kid seems pretty legit, i like this one' (when he was already born, not before that), and through a prophet, gives him a second name that literally means 'friend to god'. then, many, many chapters later, when david is old as balls and senile and slowly dying and there's a succession crisis blooming, nathan (who was the one that gave solomon his second name, as this part of the story’s acting prophet) has bathsheba resolve it by, ahem, 'reminding' him that he promised her that solomon will succeed him. and it's kind of Highly Conspicuous that we have never seen nor been told that this promise happened in the one part of the narration where it would have been most relevant to include so it's not out of the question that nathan had her persuade him of something that never happened because he was kind of very malleable at that point and with shit going down in court they needed a fast solution.

with that in mind i think fate goes under the assumption that this promise was actually real, and that the only major difference here outside of the magic/nasuverse specific elements is that solomon being chosen this way was something that happened before he was actually born, so it connected the two and combined them with how he's characterized in the chapters afterwards as the Good Flawless King and then with all sort of external sources that i can't really speak of since they’re not my area. the other main difference is the implication that david actually played a part in solomon's divine kingly destiny and planned on him being king from the start and specifically offered for god to raise him as such. and there's precedent for something like that with samuel who basically got offered by his mother to be raised as a divine prophet/judge, and the circumstances are more or less similar. samuel was offered by his mother to be in service to god and was raised by priests, which is close enough to being raised by god i guess? but he was totally separated from his parents, and he was definitely absolutely not inhumanly flawless lmao. so i think what david offered is roughly to the extent of 'i will give you my son to raise as his father instead of me, so you could raise him into the kind of king i couldn't be, while i'll stay out of his life so you can do your thing with him as you need'. and with samuel as an example for a similair offer/deal, i think he was expecting a normal human child, just one who'd grow up into a very skilled, competent king and without david's own flaws. and i imagine he was not planning on how it actually turned out for everyone involved.

and as for the reason why he even made the offer in the first place, i chose to look to the promise as the hint to the answer: at least part of it should likely be piousness and sincerely wanting to provide god with the kind of person he couldn't be, but it also means bathsheba, who became his wife under less then ideal circumstances and who lost both her husband and the first child she ever had and that should have been her husband's to his actions and his punishment, has guaranteed protection under her status as the king's mother and isn't thrown to the wolves when he dies, which is the issue she appeals to when she asks him to officially appoint solomon as his successor. being the king's mother gives her control and power in a world where she'd otherwise be in a very precarious position. theeeeeeeeennnn there's also some tradition-- i don’t remember much but i know it exists-- that claims she was his Favorite of his wives, probably for shallow reasons, though i don't think there's much internal textual evidence of that, but that's also A Thought. (i'm just saying, if they ended up developing an actually good connection and ended up loving each other for real that'd be a fascinating and very nasu twist but idk if i'm officially adopting that as my hc yet)

then there's the question of david's relationship to solomon.... there's different takes on it, from what i've seen in fancomics and stuff that does have transltions, and what i managed to understand from untranslated stuff. one interesting one is that david emotionally distanced himself as a result of the trauma of losing the baby from his initial affair with bathsheba, so he kept this distance from the second son he had with her so as to avoid something like that again-- -out of fear he'll lose him again if he allows himself to get emotionally attached. it's a trauma that would certainly be compounded after he lost tamar, amnon and then absalom and how that entire incident really broke him. i don't know if i totally subscribe to that but i think it's on to something.

in general i think of david as not a cruel or abusive father but definitely an emotionally distant one and not very actively present in his children's lives. the struggle of balancing being a king and being a human being had a wrench thrown in it when among all the roles he had to play came up the role of a father, which he just had zero understanding of how to approach or how it fits in with that balance-- the inhuman role of a king and the very human role of father are far more difficult to separate in the world of politics and the court, for him. drawing in from the source text, even in the bible you get the strong sense that he's not very attentive at the best of times, but the moment he loses any of his children, his grief is almost always overwhelming and unsubtle, even if it always manifests differently. in fgo materials their relationship is described as an indifferent one, which is to say, it's not a bad relationship because there's not much of a relationship at all to be good or bad, and i think it was sort of the case with most of his relationships with his children. of course, i also doubt there were absolutely no feelings or affection involved and that it was a totally apathetic one-- on david's part at least. solomon would have been given no room for human attachments such as family or the involved feelings, which means he'd also not feel the pain of the absence of such a thing or the need to have it. if he was given room to feel any sort of familial affection, it's likely a very shallow, vague one.

roman, i think, probably just has a lot of very complicated feelings on it that he's not sure what to do with and doesn't himself really understand. i also think this distance also means he never really understood david or was given the chance to, or, due to his own nature, been given any reason to want to. the absence of this relationship is something he feels in this new human life and understands that it was there and that it was not a good thing, but in a very vague way he's doesn't have the words for; he feels disconnected from it all because even as solomon he was very emotionally disconnected from his family and all that happened in it. and now there's the amount of time has passed and how long ago it would have been for him and how overall irrelevant it all ended up being for him... that david wasn't much of a father to him ends up not mattering much in practice because everything would have turned out the same even if he was, and it's hard to miss something he never felt he ever actually had. he knows there's an absence but doesn't feel it because solomon didn't feel it, and roman never got to experience any of it as roman.

and then he actually gets to meet david again thanks to chaldea. which is completely different as a human being with, like, Feelings, when you have all this knowledge in mind, and to look at a real breathing living human (figuratively speaking) right in front of you and for that person to register as Father in your head is a completely different experience then. it goes from a sort of vague, disconnected regret to a real, emotional understanding of what it is to have a father you never managed to connect to and who kept a distance from you for reasons you don’t understand, and then having the chance to form a connection, all while trying to figure out what the heck is going on with him because he's nothing like what you remember in life.

basically i think the first thing roman thought when he saw david was roughly something like 'whomst the fuckest is [waves hands vaguely] this guy because that is so not my dad', and it slowly segued into 'okay no now i see it, that's closer to the sort of things he'd say or do, but still, what the fuck'. he starts seeing david in an entirely new way on one hand after being exposed to this completely different side to him, but it's also confusing to re-contextualize with all his memories of him and how different he is. the last time they talked, david was on his deathbed giving him a list of people he wants him to murder the shit out of, and another list of people he absolutely does not want him to murder, and his last words were basically 'i leave it up to you how you'll do it legally but i need you to kill that motherfucker dead'. his last moments on the earth he still spent not as a father speaking to a son, but as a king to his successor. ... which suddenly he can also bring himself to feel actual strong feelings about when all of this begin to feel much more personal and much less distant, and also makes the absence of this relationship actually feel tangible, including the feelings of vague regret, maybe a desire to reconnect and to really develop this relationship now that he has the chance to actually know his dad, maybe even some kind of affection for the man-- and when it starts going there that's when he panics because he was not asking for this and does not want these feelings they're really bad and horribly inconvenient this is literally the worst time to be awakening to them!!!!!!

it's all a moot point, of course, because he can't even if he admitted to himself that he wanted to; he can't afford the risk of anyone that's not da vinci knowing, much less someone like this person who he doesn't really know or understand and wouldn't have his trust even under normal circumstances. but and in between all these considerations, he looks at david and wonders about him, wonders how to talk to him-- he knows how to talk, as solomon, to His Majesty The King or to his father the king, but he doesn't know how to talk as a human being to someone he knows to be his father, person to person. he's both familiar and a complete stranger, and talking to him is just a source of headaches not just because of his general personality but because of this particular dissonance. and it's worse because he's also completely undecipherable and he can't tell what he's thinking at least half the time. as easy it might be to dismiss him and think there's nothing beyond what's going on on the surface, he still knows his dad well enough to understand that this is just not the case. and there's a lot of hindsight reflection over his childhood memories and of everything he does remember and in some way putting these things in a new context.

in practice how this manifests is really mostly that he just sort of hovers just outside his orbit, wanting to approach but avoiding at the last second, thinking all these things but not really doing anything beyond that, at one avoiding him and still being unable to resist the urge to engage with him anyway.

.... anyway this post got way way too big and i'm not sure how to end it, but these are almost all the thoughts/hcs i’ve developed for the past year or so. maybe a few minor things i missed or forgot.

#fgo tag #what if we made the emiyas more tragic #thinky thoughts

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