#like some people aren't ABLE to be healthy Karen

[xxlovelynovaxx]

Anti-recovery people: hey, it's okay to be unhealthy. That's not always something you can change and it's certainly not something you have to do. It's okay to exist as you are.

"Pro-recovery" people: OMG YOU'RE what's wrong with the mental health community, you BRAINWASHED me into thinking it wasn't okay for people to seek help if THEY wanted it, this is honestly TOXIC AF.

Anti-recovery people: but ... that's literally not what we said. Most people view recovery as this linear progression of milestones that often includes becoming more palatably neurotypical, which is ableist. What we're saying is that it's okay to recover if you want to, but that doesn't have to look like the mainstream abled version of recovery, and that it's okay to not do so at all. Some people also can't recover to those standards and we celebrate accepting your limitations.

"Pro-recovery" people: So it's OKAY to just harm your friends because of your mental illness? You support being a BAD person and not bothering to change? Also being unhealthy is bad and I'm going to assume because I recovered that everybody is capable of doing so, even if using different methods, and just choosing not to bother because of YOU people.

Anti-recovery people: What? No! Hurting other people is not okay! Do you actually think that these symptoms of a diagnosis are what causes someone to choose to harm other people? That's both super ableist and also a fundamental misunderstanding of what causes harmful, toxic, and abusive behaviors.

Anti-recovery people: In the few cases where someone is truly incapable of controlling a harmful behavior, where someone has extremely high support needs, we support them getting the adequate societal support to have someone help them through these behaviors without anyone getting hurt, but more importantly, without exacerbating their own distress that they are very clearly expressing.

Anti-recovery people: In most other cases, conflating the choices and actions of someone who is mentally ill with their diagnosis is super ableist, as is conflating "it's okay if you struggle to brush your teeth" with "it's okay to treat your friends and loved ones like shit with no consequences". I assume you're defining harm as "actively insulting, belitting, invalidating, physically or sexually assaulting you, though, and not just visibly having symptoms of a mental illness or talking about their struggles, right?*

"Pro-recovery"people: . . .

Anti-recovery people: We're saying that it's harmful to moralize health, for multiple reasons. There's that you are not capable of determining if a person is able to recover, for any given definition of recovery. There's that even if a person is able to, them being unhealthy is not actually harming you, and they have the right to make those choices even if you wouldn't make the same ones for yourself. There's the fact that recovery looks different for everybody, and for many, accepting that you can't "recover" to the expectations set by the mainstream IS recovery. ESPECIALLY given that many things that are called "unhealthy" are perfectly harmless and healthy aspects of neurodivergence that have been unnecessarily medicalized by our ableist society and psychiatric institutions.

"Pro-recovery" people: . . .

"Pro-recovery" people: YOU'RE the reason I wanted to kill myself for a decade and didn't bother to do anything about it! Personal responsibility, ever heard of it? Once I left your CULT I started doing yoga and now I'm BETTER and so everyone else can do that too!

Anti-recovery people: ... Do YOU know what personal responsibility is? All the "anti-recovery" in our names means is that we are against the idea that it's morally wrong to refuse to recover, whether that means refusing to conform to the mainstream ideal of recovery, a choice that you make to not pursue recovery, or an acceptance of your own inability to recover. We are not against choosing recovery as a personal decision if that's what you want - in fact, we support those people.

Anti-recovery people: Anyway, you don't know what led up to someone making this choice. Someone with long-term treatment-resistant suicidal depression is not wrong for not continuing to try meds that have not once worked, pursuing expensive TMS they may not be able to afford which is not covered by most insurance, continuing meds that have some effect but worse side effects than the depression itself, or psychotherapy that may have little to not effect, especially if they have at any point been subject to psychiatric neglect or abuse, which is more common than you're aware.

"Pro-recovery" people: See, I was toxic like you but unlearned all of that so now I'm no longer toxic. Btw I'm currently actively harassing disabled people because they're not 'working hard enough' or using 'better coping skills' and them being unhealthy is a personally harmful to me and everyone that ever interacts with them. What do you mean that's not okay just because the disability is a mental illness?? That's ableist!!1

Anti-recovery people: Okay, so, you haven't even bothered to deconstruct the moralization of healthiness and how that ties into ableism, I see. It's actively bigoted to expect someone to meet certain standards of health when they have a CHRONIC HEALTH ISSUE. This is no different than expecting someone with a chronic illness never to eat or drink anything unhealthy, to exercise regularly, have perfect sleep habits, and otherwise be a paragon of healthy choices or else it's "their fault" for just "not caring enough to put in the work to recover. Of course, you likely also do those things, in which case the comparison is lost on you, because ableists are so rarely ableist against only mentally or physically disabled people and not the other.**

Anti-recovery people: You also seem to believe that you're ontologically incapable of doing harm - you say that it's an "ongoing process" but then your actions show that you haven't bothered learning to listen when people say you're harming them and have just changed your targets to be people who have less societal power than you so they're less able to stand up for themselves and you're less obligated to listen to them. Are you just trying to find a justification for bullying people that others will accept?

"Pro-recovery" people: . . . STOP HARASSING ME!!1

Anti-recovery people: *Looks into camera like they're on the office*

*I have actually harmed others in the past in ways that were influenced by my mental illness. OCD, of all things, was the one that most directly impacted my actions, and I owned my mistakes. That being said, they were still my CHOICE. The mental illness played a role, but it didn't cause the harm I did. You know what wasn't my choice, though? My overreliance on my friends for essentially trauma-dumping and for getting my emotional needs met because I was actively being abused and the system was neither providing me ANY way out nor even adequate mental healthcare (as if that's possible when being ACTIVELY ABUSED WITH NOT EVEN A BROCHURE OFFERED ABOUT HOW TO ESCAPE ABUSE.) I was a drowning person clawing at them for survival, and it was neither of our faults that the system is primed to actively keep disabled people in abusive situations. So don't @ me.

**I would know, I am both multiple physically and multiply mentally disabled.

[cosmichighpriestess]

Chosen Ones, Cursebreakers, Black Sheep, you are exactly where you are supposed to be right now. You may still be close in vicinity with your abusers, but know that God has you there for a reason. It's out of your control. Don't beat yourself up for being exactly where you're supposed to be and doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing. You are right on time at all times and God will move you to where you belong at the right divine timing. Right now your enemies aren't receiving all their karma. Because if they did, they would take out their irritations on you and you don't deserve that. They think their luck is bad now? They have no idea what happens when you leave the premises for good. The Universe has to balance out the scales. They have no idea. Oops. You fucked with the wrong one. Oops. We're not your punching bag anymore.

But you cannot make other's comfortable with who you are, that is not your responsibility, to lower yourself, to make yourself smaller, more digestable, more like them, to people please, your authenticity is the key to all your happiness, all your success, all the things you want and desire will only come from being yourself. That's your purpose on Earth, is just to be yourself. Sometimes people can only meet you as deeply as they have met themselves. You cannot make other's think and feel as deeply as you do because you can understand them deeply, but they cannot understand you. It's a blessing but it feels like a curse. It hurts to be looked at and never seen but the ones who do see you will be able to take you in and love you loud, love you intensely, love, appreciate and value you because you are extremely valuable, whether other's treat you that way or not, it does not matter, it only matters that you value and appreciate yourself and you will see reflections of that in time and you will continue to meet more versions of yourself you never knew existed.

Oops we're not your scapegoat anymore. Oops its the consequences to your toxic actions. They thought they were handling a sheep with no army when they were dealing with a wolf with an entire army behind them. Not only our ancestors but their ancestors warned them not to mess with you anymore. They decided to roll their eyes at that warning. God is laughing at them. God wanted to see how far they would go to destroy you. Now they will be forced to deal with the same irritations and aggravations that you had to deal with because they didn't have healthy coping mechanisms to deal with their anger. All their anger went onto us, and we were their human punching bag for years some of us decades. Now they have to deal with that type of energy on their own without having a human punching bag in their vicinity to take it out on. And what do you think they will do when they don't have their scapegoat around anymore? They will go to the closest person to them or an innocent person near them even regular people just doing their jobs at their work. (But we all know they are Karens who do that anyways to innocent people, not only us.) That other person may not take that kind of toxic behavior lightly and they may even see their true colors for the first time and start to believe you.

See, your abusers felt justified in treating you badly because they and everyone else who already envied your spirit labeled you as a "bad" person. They had no problem throwing you under the bus, spreading lies because they were already looking for fault in you and reasons to not like you. Because they felt threatened by you, because they were insecure in themselves. You didn't and still don't deserve any of that bullshit. The constant lying on your name, the constant bullying, the constant crossing your boundaries, the constant abuse, neglect, resentment, attacks, projections and negativity they throw at you you didn't and never deserved any of it. They severely underestimated and misunderstood you and who you are. All superficial false perceptions of who they think you are, not the truth of who you are. Your presence is healing for those with an open heart but triggering for those with many inner unhealed wounds. You trigger healing for those with a closed heart. They had closed hearts that refused to heal because they were afraid of facing their own triggers.

Your abusers can either play the victim or they can own their realness and rawness and observe neutrally at what they've created. They either want positive change or they don't. If it's not bringing true happiness and passion into your life then what's the point. Hold yourself accountable for your actions. Humble yourself. Embrace your ego deaths, they serve you. God is removing you from their life and God is removing them from your life, you don't have to worry about anything, you are covered. Now their test is, can they handle their karma, can they ground themselves and be emotionally mature and not project it onto others or are they going to lose control of themselves and project it onto innocent people? The more they fail these tests the more tests are going to be sent their way. Either way, I suggest you stay in your own lane and keep it moving and keep focusing on your own happiness because they made their bed. We the chosen came into this world for the evolution of humanity and we will continue to and we cannot and will not be stopped.

[wizzardhat]

I haven't seen anyone talk about this and it drives me up a fucking wall so I'm just going to rant about it really quickly I guess

Nobody's brain works the same way. we can all agree on that right? then it stands to reason that no two people experience the same neurodivergence or mental illness the same way. this should be obvious, I think, but i guess it isnt, because if i had some $$$ for every time i heard "you can't use depression as an excuse for everything" from my friend who HAS DEPRESSION, or "you aren't trying hard enough to find ways to work around your adhd" from my mother who ALSO HAS ADHD, I could buy a fuckinUHHHHHH NEW BRAIN, PROBABLY.

HAVING THE SAME MENTAL ILLNESS, NEURODIVERGENCY, OR TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCES AS SOMEONE DOESN'T GIVE YOU A FREE PASS TO THROW AROUND THE SAME TIRED "you're just not trying hard enough" BULLSHIT THAT WE HEARD FROM EVERY FUCKING BODY ELSE.

it's so invalidating to hear from someone who is supposed to be able to understand how you feel, that no, your symptoms really ARE just personal shortcomings.

It's not a crime to become frustrated with someone-- my mom has depression, and even on antidepressants, she is significantly less functional that i am, and my depression isnt being medically treated. Of course I get frustrated with her, and wonder why she can't just develop healthy coping mechanisms like I did? why she can't get the same growth out of therapy that i did? how she can call out sick so often and let her responsibilities go so long intended to? I don't know! And, I will never know, because I DON'T KNOW what's goin on inside HER head! What kind of presumptuous insensitive jackass would I have to be to decide "oh, she's just lazy, unlike me, the Model Paitent" and then SAY THAT TO HER FACE?

so uh in conclusion. We Can't All Be Good At Not Being Neurotypical, Karen. stop acting like you're an expert on other people's brains just bc you have one arbitrarily classified cluster of symptoms in common.

[trombonesinspace]

The diner scene in ".380" makes for plenty of interpretation. Was Frank telling Karen that it's better to put up with being hurt by someone you love (like Matt) than not have them at all? Or was he telling Karen to understand that pain is inevitable in a relationship as people simply aren't perfect and things won't always be perfect between her and Matt?

More the first one, I think. He’s definitely saying that a painful relationship with someone is better than not having them at all. But it seems to me that he goes further than that. I think he’s saying that the fact that Matt hurts Karen is the reason why she should stay with him, that the pain is in itself proof of how close they are, and that she should welcome it and hold onto it.

I think Frank is one of those people who believes that passion is the single most important factor in a romantic relationship. Plenty of people think like this—I think American culture encourages the idea, in the love stories we tell ourselves, our popular music, etc. The whole idea of romantic love itself is rooted in the primacy of feeling over all other considerations. But it can easily lead to the idea (and sometimes even explicitly states the idea) that strength of emotion is more important than the quality of the emotion, that passion trumps respect, and justifies pain. That intensity of feeling is how you know it’s true love, even if your partner is tearing you apart.

I do not agree with this. The way Frank describes his relationship with his wife gives me chills, and not in a good way. To me, it sounds terribly unhealthy and damaging. Under the circumstances, since his wife is now dead, I can understand him saying he’d cut his own arm off to have it back again, pain and all. But that isn’t the way he frames it—he never says he loved her despite the pain—he really does sound like he’s making the argument that pain is how you know it’s real.

To be fair, we know from Frank’s trial that he’s in a state of constant heightened emotion since his brain injury. His emotional patterns are disturbed by chronic stress. But really that just means that his current views on emotion are not something that anyone should take as serious advice.

I think that Karen takes the healthy view, when she says that people who hurt you are the ones you don’t hold onto. But Frank disagrees.

K: He’s the kind of man who hurts people. Not like you, but…he damages them. Breaks them.

F: Sorry, is that supposed to mean something?

K: So those are the people that you get out of your life!

F: Is that right? Look, I might generally be considered out of my skull, so this might not mean much, but this could be the craziest, most batshit thing I’ve ever heard in my life.

Really, Frank? Kicking to the curb people who break you is the craziest thing you’ve ever heard? Sounds like basic self-preservation, not to mention self-respect, to me. Karen’s not just saying they’ve had their differences, she’s indicting Matt on much stronger terms, and Frank’s response is “So what?” and “You’re nuts!”

The one point I will grant to Frank is that someone has to be close to you to be able to hurt you that much. In that sense, sure, the pain is evidence of Karen’s feelings for Matt: if she didn’t love him, then none of this would hurt so much. But that’s the most I can give him. It’s simply not true that love is all you need, not when your partner mistreats you. Matt’s choices have consequences, and Karen is perfectly justified in deciding that a few kisses and some empty words aren’t enough.

Of course, I also want Karen to be with Matt, but boy, not for Frank’s reasons. And not until Matt has done the necessary work to make amends for his mistakes. Frank telling Karen to hold on to him as things are at this point is not good advice.

Acknowledging those mistakes is the first step–telling Karen the truth is the single best choice Matt could possibly make. All his problematic behavior toward her stems from that one big mistake of hiding the truth from her, and by telling her, he’s admitting he was wrong. It doesn’t magically make everything better, but it’s the necessary first step toward things getting better, and it’s the only way there’s any hope of her ever being able to trust him again.

Well, okay, it probably won’t cure his protectiveness. But I think protecting people is Matt’s love language, he wants to protect anyone he cares about. It’s a thing they’re going to have to address, to build a strong relationship based on respect, but it’s not as bad as all the deception.

So yeah, I think Frank Castle’s Advice for the Lovelorn is basically terrible, with maybe one or two grains of truth buried in it. I understand why Karedevil shippers think it’s so great that even Frank ships it, but he barely knows Karen and knows Matt even less, and only briefly saw them interacting; and he’s filtering what he did see through his own feelings for his dead wife, and, IMO, the toxic idea that any pain is worth the Passion of True Love. Karen has more self-respect than that, and should hold out for better.