#like sorry but that argument reads to me the same as anything george rr martin has said about the series with just a feminist veneer

[wizardnaturalist]

I hate readings of eowyn that are "of course the only woman interested in battle and glory decides she actually just wants to be a wife at the end of the story 🙄" bcs congrats, you have spectacularly missed the point!

yeah, eowyn decides she no longer wants to be a warrior at the end of the series, but that is the overarching theme of Literally The Entire Story. lord of the rings is not, and has never been, about epic battles and great fighters and glory through combat. war is continuously framed as a horrifying consequence of the greed and selfishness of powerful people that ruins the lives of everyone involved

aragorn is not accepted as king of gondor because he won the battle of pelennor fields, he is accepted because of his skill and care in healing the wounded afterward. boromir's desire to use the ring as a weapon is what allowed it to corrupt him so easily, despite his noble intentions.

and yes, eowyn wanted to fight. she got to see firsthand the "glory" she sought. she got to see her uncle die in her arms, and herself and her best friend greviously injured and almost killed themselves. the whole point is that there was no glory. there was no great triumph on the battlefield. there was only struggle and horror and death.

and how could you see eowyn best one of sauron's top minions, someone even gandalf feared, and think the ultimate message was "obviously she belongs in the Home :)"

[esther-dot]

“The things he has told us time and again over the course of years that he told D&D? The things the fandom wants to believe are strictly their fuckery? Like say, Stannis burning Shireen, King Bran, Dark Dany?”

Can you share where George told us ‘time and again’ that he told D&D about Dark Dany? Because from what I know, the three things George RR Martin confirmed he’s told D&D were Stannis burning Shireen, King Bran and the Hodor moment. I don’t remember him saying anything about Daenerys’ ending, I’d be happy if you enlightened me, I’d love to see the interview/post.

Oh, I’m sorry. I wasn’t careful enough there! Martin has said many times over the course of years, that he has known his main endings and plot points for years/decades. He has also said he shared these with D&D, that he expected the show to have the same endgames, and before and after s8 he has spoken of how faithful an adaptation of ASOIAF Game of Thrones is. Obviously they have huge divergences, but I think those are in the how the endgame is reached, less the what. That’s the part of “he told us time and again” that I meant, not that I have heard him explicitly say, “Dany dies a villain.”

But, he did say this of the infamous Meereenese Blot Essays:

Then he went on to add that sometimes there's an essay or even a series of essays that "really gets it right". He specifically cited the difficulty he had with the Meereenese sections of ADwD, trying to figure out the POV, and he called it the "Meereenese Knot." He admitted being annoyed when some turned it into "the Meerenese Blot", but someone made a series of essays with that title. "I read those when someone pointed them out to me, and I was really pleased with them, because at least one guy got it. He got it completely, he knew exactly what I was trying to do there, and evidently I did it well enough for people who were paying attention." Of course, he added that some other essays depress him when people get everything wrong, and when people get everything wrong, well, whose fault is it? It could be his fault because he didn't write it well enough, but who knows? (link)

Here are some quotes from those essays:

But when you look past the unreliable narrator and POV-character bias, Martin’s aim becomes clear. The whole plotline is designed to maneuver Dany into a mental place where she’ll decide to sideline her concerns for innocent life, and take what she wants with fire and blood. Martin’s triumph is in handling this character development in such a natural and organic way. He gives Dany as much agency as he can — her hand is never truly forced by the Harpy or slavers. He presents her with incredibly difficult situations, places her core values into conflict, and makes her choose. Her choices first go one way — then another.

Now, the transformation is complete. The Dany we knew at the end of ASOS is gone. The one who reaches Westeros will be a very different person. The dragons are now unchained, and the gloves are off. (link)

and

In parts I-IV of this essay, I’ve laid out my main argument that Martin has designed Dany’s ADWD plotline quite deliberately to focus on her struggle within herself. She tries to be concerned for innocent life, and fears unleashing her violent impulses. Eventually, she sacrifices a great deal for peace, and achieves it. But she turns out to hate it, and in the end rejects it, in favor of “fire and blood.” 

and

In contrast to Daario, Martin tailors the traits of Hizdahr zo Loraq to represent the path of peace through political compromise. Dany’s feelings toward him are exactly how she ends up feeling toward the peace — like the peace, Hizdahr is unsatisfying, frustrating, not what Dany truly wants, and cannot make her happy — and instinctively, she wants war more. 

and

Dany’s sexual satisfaction is a metaphor — the reality of peace can’t truly satisfy Dany, only war can (link)

So, no, Mr Martin didn’t look into a camera and say, “Dark Dany is real and everyone who says so isn’t a hater or partaking in a ship war.” But I’m not sure how you read the essays and what he said about them and deny that’s the path she’s on?

I also think the way he regularly included “the major beats” in his discussion about endgames being the same in the show and books indicates the burning of KL was always in his mind, but even if he didn’t say so, I don’t think it’s a weird conclusion to come to. Not if you relate Dany entering a funeral pyre because she is blood of the dragon and emerging with her dragons to the later quotes about Aerys wanting to turn KL into a giant funeral pyre so that he could be a dragon. It’s just not much of a leap at all to realize, oh, the author is building to something here. (link)

My words could have been clearer, but I think Dark Dany is just like Stannis burning Shireen. It makes sense, it’s foreseeable, but fans like Stannis so they refuse to believe it without seeing the words on the page. Fine. But it doesn’t mean it wasn’t where Martin always intended to go. His quote about Feldman’s essays is from 2015.

The other Martin quote that seals the deal for me regarding Dark Dany is the fact that he called her a threat and compared her to the Others:

MARTIN: Well, of course, the two outlying ones — the things going on north of  the Wall, and then there is Targaryen on the other continent with her  dragons — are of course the ice and fire of the title, “A Song of Ice  and Fire.” The central stuff — the stuff that’s happening in the middle,  in King’s Landing, the capital of the seven kingdoms — is much more  based on historical events, historical fiction. It’s loosely drawn from  the Wars of the Roses and some of the other conflicts around the 100  Years’ War, although, of course, with a fantasy twist. You know, one of  the dynamics I started with, there was the sense of people being so  consumed by their petty struggles for power within the seven kingdoms,  within King’s Landing — who’s going to be king? Who’s going to be on the  Small Council? Who’s going to determine the policies? — that they’re  blind to the much greater and more dangerous threats that are happening  far away on the periphery of their kingdoms. (link)

I just don’t think he accidentally called her one of “the much greater and more dangerous threats” if in his mind she wasn’t, ya know, a threat to the people of Westeros. That quote is from 2014. There’s also the oft referenced the dragons are the nuclear deterrent quote which I can’t find the original source for at the moment, but I take the above as confirmation of what Dark Dany enthusiast have long argued. Martin reading this quote:

“the reality of peace can’t truly satisfy Dany, only war can”

and saying, He got it completely, he knew exactly what I was trying to do there…well, it feels like an answer to the Dark Dany question.