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alteregomp4 · 12 days

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Lets talk about Lestat and Gabrielle relationship...

HUGE TRIGGER WARNING: for talks of incest. and spoilers for The Vampire Lestat I guess, but once again... talks of incest.

FYI: In no way am I trying to villainize Gabrielle and if it comes off that way that is not my attention as she is also clearly a victim, I view her as such and her story is an interesting one to also dive into especially with the aspects of gender and how society sees gender identity. But we should also acknowledge that victims can sometimes become perpetrators unknowingly sadly, especially due to external factors and deep seated trauma stemming from childhood or events that have happened to that person that are clearly established in the book The Vampire Lestat and throughout the whole series even if unintentional on Anne Rice part. And once again, this is just my point of view and how I interpreted it. I truly just wish people would approach a topic like this with nuance, seriousness, and finally respect as most of the time in the books these subjects are not.

Possible controversial opinion since people love joking about it and even want it in the show which I think that's rather odd to do or want since like you guys do know that victims of this actual stuff exist as well as the fact they could be consuming said media for multiple reasons but I think people in the interview with the vampire/the vampire chronicles fandom especially book readers and ESPECIALLY those that are also Anne Rice d riders should realize that the relationship between Lestat and his mother was and is emotional incest... something that is not often talked but just as harmful as overt incest. It is also very codependent but I will just be high-lighting the convert incest here, though the two overlap a ton in these types of relationships.

This is something that affects someone for life and isn't really that funny and something that shouldn't be seen as sexy like it has been in media recently due to House Of The Dragon plus some other things that's came out in recent years, it's quite gross how normalized it's getting to find it hot because incest of any kind affects not only the development of the child but how they handle their personal relationships after they've grown. Something that is very clear in Lestat's character throughout the whole series.

I do not think me picking up on this is far fetched since the term was coined in the 1980s by psychologist Kenneth Adamswhen (I will be pulling stuff from a interview he did about the subject which I will link as it's a interesting reading) when people first started looking into the subject and the book came out in 1985, though knowing Anne Rice she just probably had a fetish for this thing as it often appears in her books which is whole another thing on it's own. It appears a lot doesn't excuse btw since the topic of abuse of any kind is not handled well. (also before people start saying that these books are gothic fiction and that incest is a staple of the genre still doesn't excuse it in my opinion since there is better ways to handle the topic than make it obvious fetish work. Yes, art is supposed to make you uncomfortable and I actively consume art that does exactly that to the consumer but there is the line that can be easily crossed when dealing with certain subjects if you at least don't treat them seriously and with care like they need to be.)

Their relationship is not enmeshment, something people confuse emotional incest to be and often mix the two up. But their relationship fits so many boxes of emotional incest that it is maddening I have seen no one else bring up the subject and just chalk it up to plan ole incest because of the kissing as well as blood sharing symbolizing sex for vampires in these works. (Which I have huge criticisms on how vampires are in the series plus I may be biased to not see kissing as inherently sexual due to being aroace and by the time the kisses happen Lestat has already faced stalking, literally being kidnapped by a strange man who had been watching him as well as talking to him through his mind referencing the fact he was known as wolf-killer plus having corpses that looked just like Lestat in a tower that Lestat had to stay in, turned Lestat against his will then watched said man kill himself after becoming a vampire, and sexual trauma from said man as well. So it is not surprising to me that Lestat would seek out some sort of affection from an older trusted figure in his life, even if it is negative and harmful. Most victims do this unconsciously or because the trauma makes them feel like this is the only way they feel like they can seek out validation and affection from others.)

"Any time there is physical sexual contact, and that includes things like inappropriate kissing or touching, we’re talking about overt incest. Basically, you’ve moved past playing a role and into being an object. It can be both, of course. When that happens, usually the overt incest lasts a much shorter time than the longer-term surrogate partner role. I should also state that in cases of overt and covert combined, it isn’t uncommon to see the victims involved as adults with incestuous fantasies – mother and son or father and daughter stuff online, or power differential relationships where a boundary is crossed. Or their lovers tend to be much older or younger, so much so that the age difference raises some people’s eyebrows. So, the incestuous dynamic is played out in some way."

"Frankly, I try not to draw too fine a distinction here because there is definitely a blurry line between things like sitting too close and making a child uncomfortable vs. kissing that child on the lips too long. Either way it feels icky. And the result might be that even though nobody touched my penis or breasts or vagina, when my lover tries to kiss me, I withdraw. That withdrawal is your evidence that something happened that was inappropriate and not welcome."

In the book we are shown things that check off boxes on known clear signs of emotional incest, and this is the first few pages of the book when Lestat first starts talking about his up-brining. Before I list five signs that I think fit and how I see Lestat and Gabrielle relationship as well as explain why I feel that way but let us learn what emotional incest aka also known as convert incest is.

"Covert incest describes a relationship between a parent and child in which the child feels more like a romantic partner. Typically the parent is motivated by the loneliness and emptiness of a troubled marriage, so he or she turns the child into a surrogate partner. There is not necessarily any kind of overt sexual touching, but the relationship feels too close for comfort to the child. The boundaries are such that there is an incestuous feeling. The child feels used and trapped, the same as with overt incest."

"Later on, covert incest victims tend to continue functioning in the role of a surrogate partner where they’re overly enmeshed with the parent [or] over-involved as a caretaker, even though they may have long forgotten the icky part that was present early on — usually during adolescence. As adults, instead of feeling icky, they might just feel frustrated, angry, obligated, and way too involved. This type of enmeshment is very common in terms of the adult-life characteristics. Basically, enmeshment describes the nature of the ongoing relationship; covert incest defines the earlier sexual inappropriateness."

In the first few pages after the opening of The Vampire Lestat once he begins to work on his novel we learn that his home life as a child and upbringing was not great to say the least. An abusive father, living clearly in poverty, brothers who couldn't care less if Lestat lived or died, and finally a mother who was often emotionally absent, avoided showing physical affection towards her children, and that also hindered her children's skills of being able to read as well as write out of spite because of the unfilling marriage she was forced into as well as life that she had to have because of being a woman in 1700s society. Also I feel the disconnect she has from motherhood and being a mother affects her relationship with Lestat from the start as it is clear that she lives vicariously through him due to him having gotten most of her features and traits unlike his brothers, also because of her own struggles with womanhood as well as how society sees has always seen women and what it is to be a woman.

This situation is just brewing for a codependent relationship to happen, especially between mother and child as it's clear they both hold resentment towards the father. A simple codependent relationship can quickly turn abusive especially in a household like this and most of any kind of abuse that children can face is commonly more likely to be from family or people they know than strangers.

The five signs I wanted to point out that really struck me of fitting the two (only doing five as this post is already so long and I do not feel comfortable on trying to score points on it like how psychologists do for cases like these as I am clearly not one.):

Talking about sexual encounters or even dreams of one with your child: Gabrielle in page 39 of the book shares a dream she has of basically having a train run on her by the whole town, this is just after Lestat has opened up about his fears and nightmares he has of killing his brothers and father like he did to the wolves earlier in the forest. That he isn't the same Lestat he was and has come back as a killer instead of her son. He is still in the bloody clothes that he killed the wolves in when she shares this.

"'You know I imagine,'' she said, looking towards me again. ''Not so much the murdering of them as an abandon which disregards them completely. I imagine drinking wine until I'm so drunk I strip off my clothes and bathe in the mountain streams naked.'' I almost laughed. But it was a sublime amusement. I looked up at her, uncertain for a moment that I was hearing her cor-rectly. But she had said these words and she wasn't finished. ''And then I imagine going into the village," she said, ''and up into the inn and taking any men that come there-crude men, big men, old men, boys. Just lying there and taking them one after another, and feeling some magnificent triumph in it, some absolute release without a thought of what happens to your father or your brothers, whether they are alive or dead. In that moment that I am purely myself. I belong to no one." - Page 39, The Vampire Lestat

This is something really weird to just open up about with your child, especially after they open up about their fear of harming others and feeling like they aren't the same person they were after a traumatizing experience. I understand that she was trying to relate in a way about how she also feels these types of feelings towards Lestat's father and brothers but I full on had to put the book down out of pure shock that this was written right after a character was talking clearly about intrusive thoughts with your own ones that inherently sexual in nature, especially to your own child for that matter.

Sharing responsibility for adult decisions such as finances, employment, or where to live: Lestat and Gabrielle are the sole providers for the household. Lestat being the one that often brought in food due to finding comfort in hunting after being taken out of church as Gabrielle provided him the tools like his pet mastiffs, guns, and horse while Gabrielle was the sole reason they had any sort of money in the first place due to coming from a rich family, often selling her own jewelry to help get gifts for Lestat and just have money for the family. With this she also helped him run away to Paris with Nicki.

Because of this Lestat and Gabrielle have been sharing sole responsibility for adult decisions in the household and especially financial ones, which no child should be or feel responsible for.

Missing out on child-appropriate activities such as extracurriculars or time with friends: Lestat life was sheltered. To the point he didn't know how to write or read till he went to the church to study under the priest. The only friends he has had outside of his family up to this point are the people at the church, his dogs, the traveling theater company, and soon Nicki.

"I loved the monastery school. I loved the chapel and the hymns, the library with its thousands of old books, the bells that divided the day, the ever repeated rituals. I loved the cleanliness of the place, the overwhelming fact that all things here were well kept and in good repair, that work never ceased throughout the great house and the gardens. When I was corrected, which wasn't often, I knew an intense happiness because someone for the first time in my life was trying to make me into a good person, one who could learn things. Within a month I declared my vocation. I wanted to enter the order. I wanted to spend my life in those immaculate cloisters, in the library writing on parchment and learning to read the ancient books. I wanted to be enclosed forever with people who believed I could be good if I wanted to be. I was liked there. And that was a most unusual thing. I didn't make other people there unhappy or angry. The Father Superior wrote immediately to ask my father's permission. And frankly I thought my father would be glad to be rid of me. But three days later my brothers arrived to take me home with them. I cried and begged to stay, but there was nothing the Father Superior could do. And as soon as we reached the castle, my brothers took away my books and locked me up. I didn't understand why they were so angry. There was the hint that I had behaved like a fool for some reason. I couldn't stop crying. I was walking round and round and smashing my fist into things and kicking the door. Then my brother Augustin started coming in and talking to me. He'd circle the point at first, but what came clear finally was that no member of a great French family was going to be a poor teaching brother. How could I have misunderstood everything so completely? I was sent there to learn to read and write. Why did I always have to go to extremes? Why did I behave habitually like a wild creature? As for becoming a priest with real prospects within the Church, well, I was the youngest son of this family, now, wasn't I? I ought to think of my duties to my nieces and nephews. Translate all that to mean this: We have no money to launch a real ecclesiastical career for you, to make you a bishop or cardinal as befits our rank, so you have to live out your life here as an illiterate and a beggar. Come in the great hall and play chess with your father." - Pages 20 and 21, The Vampire Lestat

"When I woke up the next morning, she was gone and so were all the players, and my brothers were there. I never knew if my friends had been bribed to give me over, or just frightened off. More likely the latter. Whatever the case, I was taken back home again. Of course my family was perfectly horrified at what I'd done. Wanting to be a monk when you are twelve is excusable. But the theater had the taint of the devil. Even the great Moliere had not been given a Christian burial. And I'd run off with a troupe of ragged vagabond Italians, painted my face white, and acted with them in a town square for money. I was beaten severely, and when I cursed everyone, I was beaten again. The worst punishment, however, was seeing the look on my mother's face. I hadn't even told her I was going. And I had wounded her, a thing that had never really happened before. But she never said anything about it. When she came to me, she listened to me cry. I saw tears in her eyes. And she laid her hand on my shoulder, which for her was something a little remarkable. I didn't tell her what it had been like, those few days. But I think she knew. Something magical had been lost utterly. And once again, she defied my father. She put an end to the condemnations, the beatings, the restrictions. She had me sit beside her at the table. She deferred to me, actually talked to me in conversation that was perfectly unnatural to her, until she had subdued and dissolved the rancor of the family. Finally, as she had in the past, she produced another of her jewels and she bought the fine hunting rifle that I had taken with me when I killed the wolves." - Pages 34 and 35, The Vampire Lestat

Alternating feelings of love and hatred for your parent(s): This is shown in the first book as well as in this one, but now we get to see these feelings he has towards his mother rather than his father as well as brothers.

"She was silent for a while. And as I sat there, looking past her at the fire, I wanted to tell her a lot of things, how much I loved her particularly. But I was cautious. She had a way of cutting me off when I spoke to her, and mingled with my love was a powerful resentment of her. All my life I'd watched her read her Italian books and scribble letters to people in Naples, where she had grown up, yet she had no patience even to teach me or my brothers the alphabet. And nothing had changed after I came back from the monastery. I was twenty and I couldn't read or write more than a few prayers and my name. I hated the sight of her books; I hated her absorption in them. And in some vague way, I hated the fact that only extreme pain in me could ever wring from her the slightest warmth or interest. Yet she'd been my savior. And there was no one but her. And I was as tired of being alone, perhaps, as a young person can be. She was here now, out of the confines of her library, and she was attentive to me. Finally I was convinced that she wouldn't get up and go away, and I found myself speaking to her." Page 25, The Vampire Lestat

"And she almost laughed herself. Maybe in her own quiet way she was laughing. Curious moment. Some almost brutal sense of her as a human being quite removed from all that surrounded her. We did understand each other, and all my resentment of her didn't matter too much." - Page 27, The Vampire Lestat

Your parent(s) turned to you, instead of their partner or another adult, to unburden any feelings of emotional distress they experienced: Gabrielle is only open and shows any emotional towards her children if it is Lestat that she is talking to, she is closed off to everyone else in the household but him due to own her contempt and feelings around of being a wife and a mother. He is the first and only person to be told that she is sick and dying, that she doesn't expect to make it through another winter at best. This is a lot to put on anyone at any age, especially someone who is your child and after they have opened up a bit as well as their own traumatizing event.

"I made some little anguished sound. I think I leaned forward and said, "Mother! " "Don't say any more," she answered. I think she hated to be called mother, but I hadn't been able to help it." - Page 27, The Vampire Lestat

"I just wanted to speak it to another soul, " she said. "To hear it out loud. I'm perfectly horrified by it. I'm afraid of it. " I wanted to take her hands, but I knew she'd never allow it. She disliked to be touched. She never put her arms around anyone. And so it was in our glances that we held each other. My eyes filled with tears looking at her. She patted my hand. "Don't think on it much, " she said. "I don't. Just only now and then. But you must be ready to live on without me when the time comes. That may be harder for you than you realize. " I tried to say something; I couldn't make the words come. She left me just as she'd come in, silently. And though she'd never said anything about my clothes or my beard or how dreadful I looked, she sent the servants in with clean clothes for me, and the razor and warm water, and silently I let myself be taken care of by them." - Page 27, The Vampire Lestat

"I began to feel a little stronger. I stopped thinking about what happened with the wolves and I thought about her. I thought about the words "perfectly horrified, " and I didn't know what to make of them except they sounded exactly true. I'd feel that way if I were dying slowly. It would have been better on the mountain with the wolves. But there was more to it than that. She had always been silently unhappy. She hated the inertia and the hopelessness of our life here as much as I did. And now, after eight children, three living, five dead, she was dying. This was the end for her. I determined to get up if it would make her feel better, but when I tried I couldn't. The thought of her dying was unbearable. I paced the floor of my room a lot, ate the food brought to me, but still I wouldn't go to her. But by the end of the month, visitors came to draw me out." - Page 27 and 28, The Vampire Lestat

"She did not laugh often. She could look profoundly cold. Yet she had always a little girl sweetness. Well, I looked at her as she sat on my bed-I even stared at her, I suppose-and immediately she started to talk to me. "I know how it is, " she said to me. "You hate them. Because of what you've endured and what they don't know. They haven't the imagination to know what happened to you out there on the mountain. " I felt a cold delight in these words. I gave her the silent acknowledgment that she understood it perfectly. "It was the same the first time I bore a child, " she said. "I was in agony for twelve hours, and I felt trapped in the pain, knowing the only release was the birth or my own death. When it was over, I had your brother Augustin in my arms, but I didn't want anyone else near me. And it wasn't because I blamed them. It was only that I'd suffered like that, hour after hour, that I'd gone into the circle of hell and come back out. They hadn't been in the circle of hell. And I felt quiet all over. In this common occurrence, this vulgar act of giving birth, I understood the meaning of utter loneliness." - Page 24 and 25, The Vampire Lestat

Finally to conclude this post, this is just my point of view on their relationship and how I interpreted it but I really hope the show handles something like this with care instead of making a joke out of it or making it seem like a normal vampire thing since that's what Anne Rice did. I would love if they went at with this angle of emotional incest or even just a strong codependent relationship between mother and son as I feel like it could open a lot of great conversations on the topic as bring it more into the spotlight which could lead to others realizing their not alone. But we'll see when season three is released.

Important links:

Kenneth Adamswhen interview

RAINN

#iwtv #interview with the vampire #the vampire lestat #vampire chronicles #lestat de lioncourt #gabrielle de lioncourt #if this post gets to the wrong side and people don't know how to have a civil conversation i will be muting stuff for my own peace fyi #i am also not afraid of just stright up blocking as well #nervous as hell to post this #love writing up stuff like this though as i find deep diving into characters fun #alteregomprambles #amc iwtv

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