#lopposting

[lopposting]

Sassy P

Bonus: (spoilers)

[ideas-on-paper]

Is Lies of P: Overture the equivalent of Act 1 of The Adventures of Pinocchio?

While waiting for the release of Lies of P: Overture, I’ve been thinking about how the DLC might relate to The Adventures of Pinocchio - before I started playing Lies of P, I listened to an audiobook of the full original fairy tale (because I have such big education gaps that I actually never read the original story of Pinocchio, haha), in the hopes that it would give me a better understanding and higher appreciation for the story.

And it did - I definitely benefited from knowing the source material, and it was immensely fascinating for me to see how the devs adapted certain story beats, delivering something completely new while still staying true to the story’s roots.

The latter part is what I’ve been pondering about, though - if the story structure of LoP is meant to mimic that of Carlo Collodi’s fairy tale, in what position would that put the DLC? Which brings us to the peculiar publication history of The Adventures of Pinocchio…

[Spoilers for Lies of P (main game)]

[CW for mentions of hanging/suicide]

The Adventures of Pinocchio, back then known as The Story of a Puppet, was originally published in serial form in the Giornale per i bambini, one of the first Italian children magazines. After 4 months and 8 episodes, the story came to a close in Chapter 15, with Pinocchio’s rather gruesome execution by hanging at the hands of the Fox and the Cat.

However, the story of Pinocchio turned out to be so popular that Collodi’s own editor forwarded the request to him to continue it. He agreed, adding chapters 16-36, throughout the course of which Pinocchio gets rescued by the Fairy with Turquoise Hair, and after some more misadventures eventually outgrows his bad behavior, becoming a real boy at the end of the story.

The added second part, of course, makes for a more uplifting story more appropriate for children. However, it got me thinking: If the story about the Fairy guiding Pinocchio towards being a better person and his eventual transformation into a real boy are essentially the second act of the tale, did we experience the story of Lies of P backwards? What if the base game is only “Book 2”, but we’re missing “Book 1”? What if the DLC is actually the original story of Pinocchio, as it was initially published by Carlo Collodi?

Now, the interesting thing about Act 1 of The Adventures of Pinocchio, so to speak, is that it ends with Pinocchio’s death - and many people have already speculated that the DLC will cover the events leading up to Carlo’s death, and what we’ve seen of the story so far also seems to imply as much.

In that regard, I’d like to mention the “suicide theory” that @lopposting proposed some time ago. They also noticed that the Nameless Puppet has some strange-looking marks at its neck - so, this briefly had me wondering if Carlo might’ve died from suicide by hanging himself. This would fit in surprisingly well with Pinocchio being hanged from a tree in the original fairy tale, but I’m not sure if Lea’s grief over being too late to save Carlo lines up with this. Idk, but to me, what we’ve seen so far in the trailers makes it feel like Carlo was killed by outside forces.

Speaking of Lea, there are a lot of interesting theories surrounding her character as well: Because of her hairstyle bearing a striking resemblance to Sophia’s, some people have theorized Lea might be the twin sister or mother (which would make her Lady Isabelle) of Sophia.

My friend sebulon, however, suggested to me the idea that Lea and Sophia actually might be the same person, with Lea going through a complete metamorphosis due to Simon’s experiments, eventually becoming Sophia as we know her. This may sound extremely wild, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized just how well it would fit the overarching theme of transformation present in the story. Mind you, this is something literary analysts have also observed in the original fairy tale:

"Some literary analysts have described Pinocchio as an epic hero. According to Thomas J. Morrissey and Richard Wunderlich in Death and Rebirth in Pinocchio (1983) "such mythological events probably imitate the annual cycle of vegetative birth, death, and renascence, and they often serve as paradigms for the frequent symbolic deaths and rebirths encountered in literature. Two such symbolic renderings are most prominent: re-emergence from a journey to hell and rebirth through metamorphosis. Journeys to the underworld are a common feature of Eurasian literary epics: Gilgamesh, Odysseus, Aeneas, and Dante all benefit from the knowledge and power they put on after such descents. Rebirth through metamorphosis, on the other hand, is a motif generally consigned to fantasy or speculative literature [...] These two figurative manifestations of the death-rebirth trope are rarely combined; however, Carlo Collodi's great fantasy-epic, The Adventures of Pinocchio, is a work in which a hero experiences symbolic death and rebirth through both infernal descent and metamorphosis. Pinocchio is truly a fantasy hero of epic proportions [...] Beneath the book's comic-fantasy texture—but not far beneath—lies a symbolic journey to the underworld, from which Pinocchio emerges whole."" –Wikipedia, The Adventures of Pinocchio

While there are undoubtedly parallels to LoP Pinocchio’s journey to the Arche Abbey as well as his “death” and subsequent revival during the Rise of P ending to be drawn here, it’s noteworthy the fairy herself undergoes transformation after supposedly dying: When the fairy first rescues Pinocchio, she appears to him as a young girl, saying that he is free to consider her his older sister. Later, after Pinocchio is freed from Catchfools prison, he finds a gravestone with the inscription that the fairy had died thinking Pinocchio had abandoned her, leaving him stricken with grief. When he arrives at the Island of Busy Bees, however, he stumbles upon the fairy again, only that she is older now and has the appearance of a grown woman. The fairy tells Pinocchio he will eventually turn into a real boy if he abandons his bad habits, which he promises to do, with the fairy adopting him as his son.

Now, the interesting thing is that before her “death”, the fairy acted as sort of a sister figure to Pinocchio, while after her “revival”, she became his adoptive mother. This would mirror how Sophia essentially takes over the role of Pinocchio’s adoptive mom in the base game (an impression further strengthened by the imagery of the La Pietà statue in the Grand Exhibition, with Sophia mimicking the posture when she’s holding lifeless P in the Rise of P ending), while Lea seems to address Carlo the way one would address a brother or peer. The fact that Lea says “Perhaps someday, if we can cross the bounds of time… we’ll meet again.” in the story trailer might give even stronger support to the theory “Lea = Sophia” - because in that case, Carlo and Lea did indeed meet again, in a different time, as different people. (Given Sophia’s time manipulation skills, this also makes room for some interesting speculation regarding the timeline…)

One last thing I find noteworthy though is the instance when Pinocchio first meets the fairy in the novel: While running from the Fox and the Cat, Pinocchio knocks at a cottage a young girl (later revealed to be the fairy) lives in, begging to be let in. The girl, however, answers with closed eyes that no one lives in this house as all its inhabitants, including herself, are dead, and that she’s waiting to be taken away in a coffin.

From a Watsonian perspective, this might be the fairy intending to teach Pinocchio the consequences of his actions; from a Doylist perspective, it would be a metaphor for Pinocchio’s imminent death. (Of course, the realistic perspective would be that Carlo Collodi didn’t initially plan for her to be a fairy as the story was supposed to end at this point.) In any case, it’s interesting in relation to my friend sebulon (as well as some other people) suspecting that Lea will die in the DLC - if and how exactly this would happen, however, remains to be seen.

One of the main differences between the two “books” of The Adventures of Pinocchio, as stated by Wikipedia, is that in the second half, “the maternal figure of the Blue-haired Fairy is the dominant character, versus the paternal figure of Geppetto in the first part.” Assuming that the base game is essentially Book 2 of Pinocchio (and Sophia undoubtedly is the dominant figure of the main game), that might mean we will learn some more stuff about Geppetto in the DLC.

This is actually something a few people have been wishing for, and honestly, I’d be interested in having some more backstory for him as well. I wouldn’t go so far as to say Geppetto ever was a good person at any point, but it’s quite a popular fan headcanon that the death of his wife - presumed to be Camille, judging by the statue in front of the opera house - was the catalyst for Geppetto going completely off the rails. (Actually, it’s quite likely we might learn more about Camille in the DLC, too…)

Lastly, what about Gemini, the one major character in Lies of P we barely know anything about? All we know about him is that he is “special” and different from other cricket guides in some way, and that he appears to have been familiar with Carlo. (Judging by the fact that he has vague memories about the fairytale of Pinocchio being Carlo’s favorite book.)

In the novel, the Talking Cricket dies relatively at the beginning (by being smashing by Pinocchio with a mallet) and then later reappears as a ghost, warning him not to trust the Fox and the Cat. Going by that, the most likely assumption would be that Gemini was once alive and human, but got killed at some point with his “ghost” only surviving in the Monad’s Lamp - and since the cricket’s death occurs early on in the book, it’s quite possible Gemini died in the timeline of the DLC.

Based on the description of the Triumvirate Amulet, I also hold the theory that Gemini was, in fact, the “brother” of Carlo, Romeo, and Lea who was killed by puppets. It would make sense since you get the amulet from Romeo’s Boss Ergo, and Lea says “Do you remember the time we all gathered to play this piece together?” in the story trailer, which sounds like she’s referring to herself and at least two other people. Some of the promotional articles for Overture already stated that Lea is seeking vengeance against someone, which fits in well with the “three bodies of one mind” that “sought revenge against the puppets by killing them the way their brother was killed”. Also, judging by the gameplay footage we saw so far, Gemini appears to play a way more prominent role in the DLC than in the main game - so perhaps, we might learn more about his background as well.

One thing that always confused me up until now is that their brother was killed by puppets, when the Puppet Frenzy was instigated by Geppetto after Carlo’s death - however, without spoiling anything, let me just say that with the gameplay footage from the DLC that was published so far, it makes a lot more sense why Gemini would be killed by puppets. In fact, he may have been one of the first victims of the Alchemists’ twisted schemes.

Since Lea is also seen carrying her own Gemini lantern in the story trailer, I consider it quite likely that after Gemini’s death, Carlo, Romeo, and Lea might’ve found some way to save his soul and transfer it into the lamp, so he could at least be with them in that form. The very same lamp later found its way into the hands of P, which is why there are two Gemini lamps in the DLC, as Lea and P come from different timelines. (On a side note, if Lea and Sophia were the same person, it would also make sense why Gemini says that Sophia “woke him up”, as Lea seems to be the one entrusted with Gemini from what we’ve seen.)

Mind you, all of this is just educated speculation. However, the devs did refer to the DLC as the “director’s cut” of Lies of P, saying that with the expansion, the players will finally be able to experience the “complete” story of Lies of P - and if Overture is indeed the equivalent of Book 1 of The Adventures of Pinocchio, this might even be meant literally.

Either way, I’m extremely excited about what the DLC will have in store for us.

[wyldemoon]

I love seeing everyone's thoughts on if Carlo and P are the same person. Its so interesting to see what everyone got from the story, how they interpreted it, and why.

From my experience in the game, we aren't entirely told one way or the other. It could go either way. And I think that's brilliant.

The game gives you many unanswered questions in general and, in a way, leaving you to create a story from what is given.

I love contemplation, and this game is ripe for that, lol.

I've always liked the idea that Carlo and P are the same in the end. Its how I interpreted the story and it really resonates with me in a way I cant really describe.

(Im definitely going to talk about my interpretation later. The brain worms want to be released.)

My favorite part is that this is just as valid as someone saying that Carlo and P are different! Both interpretations are, in their own way, correct.

At the end of the day, I dont think it really matters if they are or aren't the same person!

Everyone is going to look at a piece of art and get something different from it. Be it a painting, song, dance, or video game.

In the words of Choi Jiwon:

"Lies of P harbors a plethora of concealed enigmas and artful subtleties, and there are no wrong interpretations to them. Piece together the scattered fragments and unravel the puzzle to craft a narrative of what is true to you."

(I found the quote from lopposting. It comes from the special release vinyl in 2023.)

And honestly, I love this so much.

[ofgoldandfear]

I've made a slight update to Margot's playlist, with some tracks moved around and a couple added.

I've been switching between this one and the actual game's OST as well to stay in the mood while thinking about the details of Margot's narrative direction.

@lopposting mentioned an interview explaining that the next game won't necessarily be as dark, as the devs adapt the tone to the story rather than the other way around (and I love them for that ngl). However my own inspiration for Margot is pretty fucking dark already (in fact it's based on the darkest iteration of that specific story), so I guess we'll maintain the sad vibe lol besides I think Margot and P can co-exist in the same space, since I'll start with Margot basically being an NPC in P's storyline before having her take a turn at the helm once P's story is wrapped up.

The story I want to tell is another take on grief and loss, with an added layer about girlhood and motherhood - while P has a creator and has been technically alive for three days, Margot has had a whole life by comparison, she's an actual human being, born and raised by her parents. Still, whether you're an unbound Puppet or a young woman who managed to disappear completely, there's still choices to be made.

If you wonder what the inspiration for Margot is, I've been laying it on pretty thick in her introduction, so go check it out. And expect a lot of hints everywhere, layers in layers. Even when I'm being not-so-subtle, I'm still not going to handout replies without having people think about it first.

Back to her playlist, the one part I am not looking forward to write about it the part that'll require "Pull the trigger". Oh boi what a scene it's going to be. I'll probably have to take a short break after that one.

[ideas-on-paper]

Looks like there might actually be something to @lopposting's theory about the Blue Blood's Tailcoat originally belonging to Carlo... 🤔

I do wonder, though: The coat from the trailer is black and red. Pinocchio's coat is blue. So... did the coat change color or something?

On that note, the color red appears to be associated with the Legendary Stalker, and the color blue is associated with Sophia. Could it be that the change of color is meant to symbolize the "transitioning" of Carlo's soul into a new existence?

Also, there's the theory that the Legendary Stalker/Lea is Sophia's twin sister, so it's possible they both have time/reality altering powers.

IT'S THE SAME COAT. DON'T TALK TO ME. I AM UNWELL. GONE.

[lopposting]

i really love how in all the promotional pics P is presented with this PIERCING STARE under furrowed brows

like neowiz really wanted to market this game as Pinocchio but hes DARK and GRITTY with EDGE. LOOK at this MURDER MACHINE HE IS SO DANGEROUS its ABSURD

and then you play the actual game and pino is like

Pino, Clueless: Oh man my dad is so awesome and loves me so much, he would totally never lie to me or anything

[lopposting]

Look, P, I know it's our job to help this guy and everything, but I think this guy is a lost cause. He's obviously made up his mind, why don't we just cut our losses, and get out of here?

[lopposting]

Pino on the outside:

Pino on the inside:

you know what I've been thinking? you know how pino loves music, and that he gets more vocalizations the more human he gets. I think he would start to sing :)

[ideas-on-paper]

Honestly, implementing the very important lore information about Romeo's creation exclusively as a loading screen tip was... probably not the best decision, to say the least. xD

I've actually shared a theory about the exact meaning of "saving multiple lives" before; in the same discussion, I also go over a possible course of events that might have led to Romeo's creation (it was in response to a post by @lopposting about the "incident" at Monad Charity House, so it mainly revolves around that).

Back then, I assumed the Puppet Frenzy hadn't started by that point, but the opposite might as well be the case. The only precondition that has to be met is that Carlo has to be dead for Geppetto to release the Frenzy, since the entire purpose of that was for P to have enough Ergo to collect. (Maybe P didn't exist at the beginning, and Geppetto originally intended to do the same with the Nameless Puppet; however, he had to change plans after the NP turned out to be too unstable.)

So, the point at which the Frenzy started really depends on when Carlo died. If Carlo died during the Monad Charity House incident (as proposed in the theory above), it would have to be after. However, Carlo might have also died from suicide prior to the incident - we honestly don't know. (I have to say though, the game's timeline is giving me quite a bit of headaches; on one hand, the dates and order in which things happened are very vague, and on the other, the whole backstory must have taken place in a really tight time window, since Krat's economic boom seems to have happened during the course of just one or two generations.)

Regarding the topic of how Ergo works and if people are really the same if they get revived as puppets, I've written my personal take on this some time ago (apologies for all the link dumping; it's just easier for me than to type everything out). It goes pretty deep into philosophical issues, but basically, the gist of it is that for the personality to remain intact, you need to make an Ergo/heart transplantation while the person is still alive, and Carlo was already dead when Geppetto transferred his Ergo to the P-Organ.

However, it also might be that Carlo just had lost his will to live - there is the suicide theory I mentioned above, and I once made a comment that the reason why the NP's moves are so ferocious in Phase 2 (when the strings get cut) and why it almost destroys Carlo's heart might be that Carlo subconsciously wants to die. I also recently proposed another variant, that every time a person gets revived to their Ergo, their personality gets slightly altered - this might not be very noticeable at the point of the first reincarnation, but the more times someone gets revived, the more their personality deviates from the original. (My interpretation is essentially inspired by the way the game treats time in general - Sophia can rewind time in the game, but despite this, each individual moment exists only once on the scale of time. Literal definition of "You can't repeat the past." *depressing Great Gatsby music intensifies*)

This is part of my own post-game concept, but my take is that Romeo would be revived to alleviate the disarray the puppets are in. The puppets may have been programmed to serve him, but like you said, they do so many things that wouldn't make sense if it was just that - the Parade Master caring about him, Fuoco's faith, and the puppets mourning him all suggest that they legitimately trusted and cared for Romeo, so the puppets at least partially serve him out of their own free will. (It's hilarious because Geppetto has to use force for anyone to obey his orders; I think the puppets' loyalty to Romeo might have been due to him caring about them as well, and them repaying his kindness.) After the game's conclusion, I could imagine Venigni taking pity on the surviving puppets' state, so he decides to bring back their leader to give them some hope.

I've been studying the game's text for a few months now, and I don't think Pinocchio ever gets mentioned by name? Like, the fairy tale book is an obvious reference to Pinocchio, but we don't even know if the in-universe fairy tale (or the character from it) is called Pinocchio. xD

Yep, it's definitely complicated to figure some things out, but at the same time, I'm glad the game gives me this opportunity. Many stories tend to serve their lore to the audience on a silver platter, but in Lies of P, it feels more like having to cook the food yourself - and tbh, I think I kind of like that a bit more. xD

After reading this comment I was trying to think about how or why he’d have this unique heating problem, and came to the conclusion this was probably a feature rather than a bug. Now with this in mind on my fourth time around on the boss I realized something pretty insidious that pretty much confirms it for me.

There is no exit point for the boss, and the chest plate that fell off was held on with 2 large bolts on both sides. What looks like a hinge is actually a spiral decoration for his shoulder pads’ chain to connect too.

Romeo didn’t come out to meet face to face at first because he couldn’t. P was never actually supposed to see who was inside the King, and was only a consequence of the damage it received. That was the risk that had Geppetto worried enough to show up in person.

After he gets out Romeo talks about how he feels like he’s burning, and for the second phase(of his second phase) he lights his scythe off his own body(sick and metal). Romeo was rigged in there to die by overheating if by some off chance he were to ever somehow escape.

In support of this I would like to note all the machines seem to have a certain threshold for that type of damage and that Romeo isn’t actively on fire at first, just damaged. Also when he says “everything is going up in white hot flames” white flames do exist and they’re the step past blue flames, and I think he’s talking about the sensation of his systems overclocking to such a degree that he starts smoking and emitting fire.

[lopposting]

So, I have some mixed feelings about the Rise ending. I don't know, it's complicated. At the centre of the game seems to lie a father-son relationship and the lengths of approval. You are "punished", in a sense, if you decide to hand your heart to your father. But it does still technically "reward" you with approval in the good ending with his acknowledgement. I thought it would've been really interesting if Geppetto says the exact same thing as the Free from the puppet string ending ("I knew it, you're just a useless puppet") in the Rise ending, but in a different tone.

[I know this is a complicated subject, and I'm sure that many people may have some personal perspectives on this, but I hope people get what I'm trying to get at]

But after some time, I think that the apology is not really for the audience, it's for P. The apology is a worthy inclusion, not because Geppetto needs to be redeemed, but because without it, the only "wrong" option is to seek his approval. Maybe his acceptance isn't the "right" thing to want, or what we "should" want [I don't mean in a moral way] - but Pino isn't wrong for wanting it.

Or maybe he is, I don't know. But I think, despite everything - it's still what Pino wanted. and I think it does provide him with a bit more closure and peace than something else. (And it can do this while also not portraying it as the "healthiest" thing to want.)

And I think that's what they're showing us with the extra shot of him looking over the balcony. There's no other purpose of this scene [I mean other than establishing the next scene for the audience], and In his reality, it would've been completely silent. He's just looking at the view. Not even listening to music. And then he finally goes to sleep.

[lopposting]

far fetched, but something i thought of. (more crack thoughts)

There are a few specific parts that the Nameless puppet, or Carlo's body, is missing.

Namely, Carlo is missing his:

Face

Legs

Heart

Brain

and of course, his left arm.

If we look at the cast in the Wizard of Oz, the goals of the four cast members very roughly correlates to the parts that Carlo is missing:

Tin man, who is missing a Heart

Scarecrow, missing his Brain

Cowardly lion who wants courage (Face?)

and The legs (feet) upon which Dorothy wears the ruby slippers (or the silver slippers if you go by the book.)

[It doesn't mean anything lopposting. go to bed]

[lopposting]

look

the michelangelo symbolism again

also its a reversed left hand image instead of the right the left hand obsession is real in the actual painting the right hand of God is-

it doesnt mean anything lopposting. go to bed

[ideas-on-paper]

Antonia's dialogue about the Gold Coin Tree

Thanks to a post by @lopposting, I learned about Antonia supposedly having some extra dialogue about the portrait you find in the hideout of the Black Rabbit Brotherhood, provided you talk to her first after obtaining it. I was curious to see this for myself, and since I'm currently on my NG+ run, I used the opportunity to check.

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get Antonia to share any bonus dialogue about the painting, so if it's there, I don't know how to trigger it. (If anyone does, please leave me a hint!) I did, however, coincidentally stumble upon some dialogue Antonia has about the Gold Coin Tree and the Alchemists that I was completely unaware of until now.

To get this dialogue, you need to unlock the Gold Coin Tree (take the lift in the Malum District Town Hall) and then go to Antonia and speak to her. (During my first playthrough, I made the mistake of picking up the portrait in the town hall and turning around as soon as I saw the lift, since I thought it would take me to an unknown area. As a result, I got the conversation where Antonia gives you the key to Rosa Isabelle Street first and ended up missing this one.)

Upon talking to her, you'll get the following dialogue:

Now, this dialogue is very interesting for a variety of reasons, especially since it might support certain lore theories I've seen around. I'll put the more detailed discussion under the cut, since it goes into spoiler territory.

[Spoilers ahead!]

So, the first thing we learn is that Antonia was aware that the tree was there all along - makes sense, considering she also knew about the hidden underground tunnels. In fact, I'd be more surprised if she didn't know it was there, since Antonia knows more about the hotel's secrets than anyone else.

More interestingly, Antonia mentions there was infighting among the Alchemists:

"The Krat Disaster caused the Alchemists to fight amongst themselves. Many people died or went missing. That's the real tragedy of the Rose Estate."

This dialogue has led to the theory that the mysterious Rose Estate incident was a coup instigated by Simon Manus to dispose of Valentinus as a leader, and having seen the full dialogue for the first time now, I feel inclined to agree. Also, I'm not sure, but since Antonia says the "Krat Disaster" is what caused the Alchemists' internal conflict, does that mean the Puppet Frenzy and Petrification Disease outbreak already occurred before the Rose Estate incident?

Regarding the Gold Coin Tree itself, Antonia says it reacts to Ergo somehow - I guess that's why P can pick fruits from it? (But if you need large amounts of Ergo to harvest the fruits, how was the Black Rabbit Brotherhood able to steal them? Then again, they do mention the Gold Coin Fruits aren't easy to get in their notebook…)

From both Antonia and Sophia's accounts, it's obvious that the Alchemists wanted to do something with the Gold Coin Fruits - the question is just exactly what. Perhaps it has something to do with the Saintess of Mercy Statue. The notebook of Alidoro (presuming it was written by the real one) mentions the tree being "used on humans". Could that mean that the fruits can be used with the statue to revive dead people somehow? (I wrote some stuff about that here, and how Giangio/Paracelsus might fit into this.)

Either way, I get the feeling there's more to the lore of the Saintess Statue...

[ideas-on-paper]

I was thinking the same thing when the guy suddenly said: "I'm... sorry, you want to know the year?"

Like yes??? Please?!? I'd love to be able to actually understand this game's super vague timeline!

Given that we see what looks like a younger Spring, I also agree that it can't be too far back - I also think that the Petrification Disease had been a thing in Krat for a longer time, though what does make me curious is the existence of Ergo monsters. I previously had assumed these might have originated from the Charity House/Rose Estate Incident, or at least Simon's experiments - however, this max-size durian thing we saw in the trailer that looks very much like those at the cathedral/Lorenzini Arcade might be located in an experiment chamber of the Alchemists, judging by the background. (You can see one of those stone statues that are typical of the Arche Abbey.)

Also, some additional things to note about the winter setting: In the very first trailer of the game, they also showed Krat in winter - and, just as it happens, we see Geppetto putting the Nameless Puppet (Frankenstein Carlo) to the test in that trailer. (At least that's what we can assume given that Geppetto is dragging around the same suitcase he kept the NP in.)

Second, the lyrics of the song "Someday" - which is headcanoned as Romeo's song by some people (which I feel inclined to agree with) - actually mentions "snowflakes shining in the night sky", and the record's description says it's a song about "waiting for a departed lover". (Here's the full translated lyrics, for reference.)

I'm aware this might be a bit of a stretch, but... What if the DLC transports us back into the time shortly before Carlo dies? What if Carlo left for some reason and Romeo was waiting for him, but he never came back? Also, this would mean that the Puppet Frenzy/the Absolute Apocalypse™ occurred shortly afterwards, since it's still winter at the point of the first teaser. (Which would fit in with the theory that the Puppet Frenzy is a fairly recent occurrence.)

It's quite likely that the Legendary Stalker also had a relationship to Carlo and Romeo - the line "I wish I'd got here sooner..." has been previously interpreted by @lopposting as her personally blaming herself for Carlo's death (like if she got there sooner she could've prevented it), an impression that's further reinforced by the trailer.

What's interesting to me though is that the Legendary Stalker - Lea, as she's officially named - seems to know that they were thrown back in time (as she wants to avoid making the same mistake again). So, how does she know this?

Also, given that she's fiercely determined to prevent his death, that must mean Carlo is still alive at this point. Now, this sort of brought me back to my old idea of Pinocchio meeting the former classmates of Geppetto's son - just imagine the absolute chaos that would ensue if Carlo and Romeo were to actually meet P. (Romeo: "Hey Carlo! Um... What's up with your arm?" Carlo: "What the fuck is that?!?")

Oh well. At least it looks like we're going to meet the actual Alidoro in the DLC - which is pretty cool, ngl. :-)

I have many thoughts about the trailer - I do love it when we get a tone of infos without context so we're baited into putting things together. How to get a community invested 101, really, please more of that, this is one of the rare things in life that give me dopamine.

One thing I'd like to point out is the mention of a year. Will we have a clearer understanding of the timeline? It being messy in games kinda makes sense between the sudden, incredible violence that can make people feel like a week is a whole year, and Sophia's time manipulation that blurs everything.

I would LOVE to get a clearer timeline, because I do like to keep my events in proper order.

Seeing the Legendary Stalker in this context, aside from making me tear up on first watch (and yes, I had to refrain from screaming in the office but I also stopped working solely to rewatch it multiple times lol), makes me wonder. If we're having more time shenanigans, some details to note: it mustn't be TOO far in the past because Spring seems younger (smaller and fuzzier, like a young cat/kitten), yet the Petrification Disease must already very much be a thing if we meet the Legendary Stalker at that point in time, based on her "not being late" line (THANKS FOR THE HEARTWRENCH NEOWIZ - btw they did have a quarantine area as well when things started going to shit with the puppets, so it'd make a lot of sense to have the Petrification Disease predate it too, although it wasn't clear for how long that specific issue has been on-going).

I'll share more thoughts later, after multiple rewatches, and also because if I don't get back to work now, I'll get yelled at by a pesky manager.

[ideas-on-paper]

About Geppetto and the Nameless Puppet, I thought he calls it "my son" in the pre-battle cutscene?

Going by this, one could possibly interpret Geppetto's comment "Were you going to destroy Carlo's heart?" as a way of saying "You're not my son; that's not how he would act." (Or rather, how he believes he would act; I'd imagine that old man loses it whenever something is not going exactly how he thought it would.)

But then again, judging by the context, he might also be talking to no one in particular (since he's talking about retrieving the heart in the aforementioned cutscene, maybe it's meant like "my son, who will soon return to me" once he has Carlo's heart).

Also, regarding the stuff about the Triumvirate Amulet, does the description actually talk about Carlo, Romeo, and the mysterious Stalker? Not that I want to debunk the theory, I'd just like to know where it's coming from. To my knowledge, the Puppet Frenzy didn't occur until Geppetto caused it with Romeo as a catalyst, and that was after the creation of P (at least, that's how I understood it). So, assuming they want to take revenge on the puppets for murdering their brother Carlo, why would any puppets at this point go crazy and murder people in the first place (other than Arlecchino, that is)?

@lopposting Anyway, I actually would be very interested in hearing your take on how Carlo died - combining the information we have, it seems like Carlo contracted the Petrification Disease, but didn't die from it directly.

Also, I'm curious at what stage the disease was - aside from his arm (which may have been severed in a fight), we can see that Geppetto also replaced the Nameless Puppet's legs. I wonder if this is because the flesh got rotten over time or because they were already deformed due to the Petrification Disease, though...

@accidentallyheartless

That's an interesting point about the workstation. It made me realize we do see this place here in the opening cutscene. hmm.. And Geppetto being involved in Carlo's death in that way might have fuelled his regret in that kind of engulfing madness that made him the monster he was. [Tbh though, I don't think he was a good person to begin with, even pre-timeline]

@ahhlito

You mean the loading screen, right? [unless I missed some other word-of-God confirmation about Carlo] I know that's what the game tells us - but I and some others in the fanbase have doubts about the truthfulness of that particular screen, given what we see in the sand memories; even though, logically he must have had the disease because we have his Ergo. Basically, I'm wondering if he had the disease, but ultimately died maybe due to the blood loss from losing an arm or some other kind of attack. I'll try to explain my reasoning for that the best I can in another post

Some of braveheart's post here:

IT’S NOT!!! It directly contradicts what the game tells you in the story!! Your memories show Carlo on the ground with the Stalker over him wishing she had arrived sooner. If it was the disease? Then she would have been no help, so why regret not being there? 

And for the nameless puppet, it is a bit odd. my thoughts are that Geppetto doesn't see the nameless as Carlo either, and therefore doesn't bother ("Were you going to destroy Carlo's heart?" instead of "Your heart"). Also that maybe it did originally look more like Carlo, but without enough Ergo to properly preserve it, decayed over time, forcing Geppetto to replace large chunks of it.

Perhaps it shows how dead-set Geppetto was on going through with his plan with the arm of god and the frenzy, because why maintain the puppet at all when Carlo could be revived anyway? [which he does in one of the endings]

And I think, "narratively" [I don't think I'm using that word right lol], it shows how desperately Geppetto is clinging to the past, the literal corpse of his son, even as it's falling apart in his arms. The guy who brought upon a new age, Krat's new dawn of technological advancement - can't seem to move forward

@ideas-on-paper

[I LOVE reading discussion about this game] 

I remember someone somewhere pointing out that when the strings are cut, the first “human” thing nameless puppet does is grab its head like it’s in pain :O [I can’t remember where i read that im sorry ahhh] 

and also what’s really crazy about that theory is that the piercing hatred amulet tells us

"If this puppet could feel only one emotion, it would be hatred."

IF.

They could’ve just easily told us whether or not the puppet could FEEL, being the game and all

but instead they choose to say. “We don’t know”

[also PS: omg i HAVE to watch evangelion. i've been meaning to watch it for YEARS. but also. like actually. im too scared]

[milli-string]

BAHAHAHA YESS!

Look, P, I know it's our job to help this guy and everything, but I think this guy is a lost cause. He's obviously made up his mind, why don't we just cut our losses, and get out of here?