#massive immersion approach is usually pretty chill because its flexible

[rigelmejo]

sometimes it is a bit frustrating how purist some language learning forums can be about their learning method being best and unquestionable, unable to find resources from more. like, i get liking a study method that works for you, we all do! i do not get shooting down resources that can and already helped someone, just because they didn’t help you personally (or you don’t like using them particularly), so it makes it hard for another person to find those resources and discourages using them in the first place.

the post (featuring some interesting links) by Strong-Philosophy-46 : https://www.reddit.com/r/Refold/comments/n09cxk/i_think_shadowing_should_be_used_in_the_early/

from all what I've read, shadowing seems to improve phonemic awareness (the ability to hear phonemes), listening comprehension and even pitch accent in Japanese. Which all seem to be the whole point of doing an only input/no output period in the beginning.

I was on the Refold reddit again (used to be massiveimmersionapproach). And someone mentioned that shadowing may have benefits earlier on in language study - compared to Refold, which does do shadowing but not until you are basically passively able to comprehend most things to all overall things in a language (so 1-2 years into study at least). Refold insists it is efficient (I would argue while it certainly is, it amounts to srs flashcards to speed up memorization and lots of comprehensible input and ambiguous input which generally will help learners at any stage improve comprehension skills). And that its goal in mind is to learn effectively.

I sort of think, to a degree, some people who do Refold appreciate the fact there’s no encouraged output early on - either they don’t like talking, practicing with people, don’t feel comfortable writing grammar until they have a much more solid foundation compared to when textbooks make you from day 1 (that last reason’s a big reason I tend to put off output until I know more grammar). Now its great to do what you prefer! Because it will get you to KEEP studying, and that’s always more effective and efficient than what makes you give up/avoid the language. So in that sense yes avoiding output until later, if you desire, is probably the more effective choice to make. 

But at the same time? Refold encourages NOT doing output sooner, even if you feel the urge and even if some Refold studiers outputted sooner, the general consensus is ‘you will mess up accent, build bad habits, sacrifice your eventual output quality’ so people tend to discourage it. By earlier I mean like 5 months, in 10 months in - not day 1 of study. So if research happened to find, that shadowing at those earlier stages of 5 months etc actually Improves long term output skills? Then that’s great! It shows Refold’s tendency to discourage output until excellent passive comprehension fluency is achieved is unnecessary, and if you desire to output sooner (and it will motivate you, since what’s most effective is always what you’ll DO versus quit), then it would be great to know shadowing is something you can do sooner! And that it may even help your goals faster!

As I mentioned, Refold still eventually encourages shadowing after you’ve reached a high level of comprehension fluency - and at that point, you still have to do all the same shadowing techniques and work (you don’t get to skip steps, though the sounds might be more familiar). So ultimately Refold does use shadowing and already knows its helpful. I do wonder though if some people feel they need to justify their desire to not output earlier as ‘its better for my skills to Wait.” When like... in some ways that sounds to me just like perhaps a textbook/classroom learner who refuses to try to read target language novels for 2 years because they haven’t learned “the skills yet” and might misinterpret the grammar of what they read or reinforce fuzzy understanding - even though no matter how long its put off, immersion in target language content will eventually have to happen and be practiced. 

Like, the unwillingness to do shadowing earlier even if it proves to be more effective - especially if the arguement is “oh well despite proof i think it will be less effective” just rings to me like people trying to avoid what they dislike. And i think its fine to avoid what one dislikes, because for an individual it IS going to be more effective always than quitting. I just also think that Reason is good enough on its Own - there is no reason to belittle other learning approaches and strategies as less effective (especially if its proven they are more effective, but even just if someone finds them useful they’re effective to the person who will do them), when your reason of ‘i prefer not to yet’ is really good enough. Its good enough.

Just to emphasize, I’ve seen the exact opposite - traditional learners claiming ‘refold’ is ineffective and should be avoided and it ‘slows’ progress and is inefficient and a waste of time. I really do think those kinds of discouragements just keep learners who might learn or simply prefer to study DIFFERENT from you from finding wonderful ideas/materials/resources that may suit them much better, simply because a person would rather shoot down offering more resources rather than just say “well that’s useful to someone, but for me I hated doing it so I do it this way since it works better for me/I can stay motivated.” 

When I started studying chinese, I looked up lots of “how to read chinese” articles and forum posts. Since I wanted to read asap. I found some good advice. I also found a lot of angry posts. There were some people on chinese learner forums who insisted one must learn up to HSK 6 vocabulary (some were huge proponents of using anki, some hated anki - i relate to the can’t do flashcards crowd lol). And then even after that, start with graded readers, learn 3000+ hanzi before being able to tackle target language novels made for natives with a dictionary. Its pretty clear from what I describe, they probably had a personal preference for little ambiguity when engaging with chinese (too much incomprehensible input would cause them to want to quit/burn out and that’s perfectly understandable since most people generally don’t like tolerating under 95-98% comprehension). 

They were very opposite of the Refold method’s idea of immersing in content from day 1, so huge amount of ambiguity for many months. Well these people on this forum really insisted reading in chinese even with a dictionary was an insurmountable task without years of study. I obviously ended up not following their preference. But they didn’t talk about it like “oh I dislike ambiguity so I prefer to prepare this much to make the material tolerable to immerse with” they instead talked about it like “doing it any other way is hopeless and will result in needing to do this anyway.”

I ended up following the advice of people who wanted to learn like I like learning - I found examples of people who did it more like I would, knew they succeeded so I’d have some success, and copied them. There really are all kinds of methods for different people and needs/wants. I read an article of a guy who read some radical basics (me too), learned 2000 common words in memrise with a linked deck (I did it too it took 2 months, but I spread it out over 4 months of a month on then a break then another month on). Then they said they just started reading, with a dictionary, learning more words from there. I did that too - it worked for me too. I also knew from prior japanese study I needed hanzi learning help so i read a reference for maybe 500 hanzi during those months. I knew from french prior study I did better reading a grammar summary ahead of reading, so I did that too (before the common words, it took 2 weeks). I did NOT end up having to wait for years, to learn up to HSK 6, to start reading with a dictionary (my initial goal). It took about 8-10 months for the grammar to click enough that vocab lookup became the only issue, and one month burst studying about 500 more hanzi in a Hanzi Mnemonic Anki deck to quickly learn some hanzi I was running into in reading and just wanted to remember easier. So about a year in, I could move to just reading for enjoyment and looking up words with a dictionary without new hanzi frustrating me (learning them the same as words now just looking them up) and without grammar confusing me. So that base goal, that some people’s experiences learning up to HSK 6 I read - they could not even tackle some graded readers by HSK 6. 

I think part of what held back their progress there was just... not wanting to immerse and insisting it would be ‘too hard’ to try sooner. While its fine if it kept them studying, for people like me who need to engage right away? It could’ve been discouraging and caused some people to feel less motivated if they happened to be setting up such expectations. I still don’t know a lot of HSK 6 words, and about 2/3 maybe of HSK 5 words? After HSK 4 the common 2000 words I studied didn’t match up as much to HSK, and also I started picking up words mainly in my reading and shows so now what words I know is much more related to the genres I engage with.  I’ve read some stats that The Little Prince has a low unique word count but about 50% of the words aren’t in HSK - so if you learned only from HSK without outside sources, its still not necessarily 98% comprehensible. Whatever smattering I learned from must have shared more words than 50% (though not 98% either I don’t think - not quite that easy). 

My point is just like... yeah I am aware the lack of listening i did in french held me back, the lack of shadowing/producing in chinese is now my weaker area. I know i avoid them more because i’m less interested and mainly just would not be as motivated to write a journal/talk regularly right now as i am in other things. But i also think if people learn differently? Things may work better for them, we all have different preferences. Anything useful, that might get someone To study, I think is worthwhile to share.