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megami606sama · 2 years

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Does Saeran have DID?

TLDR: No, but he has a similar condition called OSDD2

Saeran's personality has been widely discussed, his duality, characteristics and behavior have quite possibly made him the most loved boy by the fandom. However, little has been detailed about his condition, leaving many questions and confusions that I would like to try to clear up in this very long post.

I hope you can sit, drink a warm coffee (or Dr Pepper if it's summer!) and enjoy this analysis, based on the most accepted psychiatric diagnosis manuals, my own knowledge and also experience.

As always, any constructive criticism or talk is welcomed :)

So.. ☆ let's get started ☆

What is DID?

Dissociative disorders are a group of conditions characterized by experiencing a disruption in the person's perception of self. It can also cause a discontinuity in the integration of consciousness, memory, perception and/or behavior.

This can translate into memory loss of important events, or daily life (dissociative amnesia). A sense of not knowing "who i am", or feeling like "i'm someone else" (disruption of identity), seeing the world as "i'm watching a movie" or "inside a dream" (depersonalization / derealization)... All those symptoms are consequences of the same basis: Dissociation.

In Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) dissociation will be experienced in two major alterations: the presence of two or more different personality states and episodes of dissociative amnesia.

Personality is a characteristic of every person, it's the set of traits and qualities that makes us who we are. In people with DID, personality fails to integrate, keeping parts of it fragmented into different identities.

These identities or alters, can be different from each other, harboring separated memories, tastes, behaviors and sensations.

And generally, there are one or more alters that have often the control of the body, we know them as "hosts".

When there's an host switch, the identity that takes control usually doesn't has access to the memories that the previous host had, causing the dissociative amnesia episodes.

Structural dissociation theory

In short words, structural dissociation theory proposes that DID, and some other dissociative-related disorders, is caused by severe trauma during early childhood, when identity isn't fully formed yet.

This theory suggests that children are not born with a unified sense of self, but it takes form from multiple experiences. And, in children overwhelmed by traumatic circumstances, many parts of identity that should have been integrated remain separated.

Complex trauma will cause the child to focus on survival instead integration, keeping their perceptions, memories and experiences dissociated as a protective mechanism.

It is implied that the severity of dissociation may be related to the complexity of the trauma and the age it was experienced.

Saeran's Story

To define if Saeran has any condition or not, and based on what we already reviewed about DID, it is important to summarize Saeran's important life events, the ones that made him who he is.

Both twins were born and raised in a context of severe abuse and trauma, making possible, based on what we discussed about structural dissociation, that Saeran may have dissociated parts of himself from an early age. However, this is not suggested ingame.

It is known that Saeran and Saeyoung lived together till their early teen years, when Saeyoung left to work at the agency, around their 15 years old. But until then, Saeran kept a structured and consistent personality, that Saeyoung described as "kind and tender".

So, with the information provided by Cheritz so far, we can safely conclude that, even if Saeran has evident risk factors to it, he didn't dissociate at early childhood, but later.

And the moment of his first dissociation is explicitly shown ingame: once kidnapped by Mint Eye, tortured by Rika and "cleansed" with the drug they call Elixir.

After prolonged torture focused on making him deny his beliefs, Saeran finally gives in to Rika's manipulation, providing her what she wanted: a different Saeran.

His first identity, differentiated from the Saeran we have met till now, is a "nameless one", who uses the same name, but at the same time behaves completely differently: Unknown, also known as Suit Saeran (but I have decided to call him AS Unknown, for reasons I will explain later)

At the same time, Ray is born as everything that "Unknown is not", merging all the characteristics, fears and feelings that Unknown is not allowed to experience, everything that is qualified as "unworthy", but also as "nice".

Both Unknown and Ray behave, act, think and feel differently. And even if they share some similarities, each has a full sense of identity, almost antagonizing each other.

They're both conscious of each other, and can share some partial inner communication. Even if the other one is fronting, or in control, the "dormant" identity will still know what's happening.

So, after being forced to dissociate, Saeran's identity is mainly split in two: Ray and Unknown, but it is not possible for them to determine who's gonna be in control. They can't switch as they please or because the situation requires one of them to be present, Ray will stay as the main host till a trigger happens: the same one that created them. The elixir.

This dynamic stays similar since the beginning of Magenta till it's fall. In AS, this happens after 6 months; in OS after 1 year and a half. (conclusion obtained considering Rika's death date as the funding date of Magenta, and its fall the time it has passed since then, suggested in both prologues)

In OS, after a more prolonged exposition to the elixir, and more time to settle in, we get to know a more mature version of Unknown, the one most people are used to see; staying as the main host.

And, depending on the route, we'll meet a third identity, one formed after therapy the power of love.

Whether by romantic or filial love, we will meet Saeran again, this time more stable and "complete", inheriting aspects from both Ray and Unknown.

In SE we'll see a more Unknown-ish Saeran, while in AS, a more Ray-ish Saeran. But in both cases, the process is the same: trying to be one again.

Is this Saeran the same Saeran he was as a child, before dissociation? Is he the result of integration? or maybe a third identity? It is not really clear, but we know that both Unknown and Ray are not completely gone, they still persist in his inner world. Which means that certain dissociative elements are still there.

By this reason, and for Cheritz's provided information, i believe that GE/SE Saeran is most likely a bridge for integration, the result of him accepting both of once split parts of himself: an still healing Saeran Choi.

This coincides with the 3 identities officially recognized by Cheritz.

Being that said, all other "versions" of Saeran met in the diverging routes and endings, would be one of those three under different scenarios.

So... let's go to the main question:

Does Saeran have DID?

Let's compare DID diagnosis criteria with what we have seen about Saeran:

A. Disruption of identity characterized by two or more distinct personality states. B. Recurrent gaps in the recall of everyday events, important personal information, and/or traumatic events that are inconsistent with ordinary forgetting. C. The symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in important areas of functioning. D. The disturbance is not a normal part of a broadly accepted cultural or religious practice. E. The symptoms are not attributable to the physiological effects of a substance

As we can notice, Saeran does have a disruption of identity; yet he doesn't suffer from major dissociative amnesia. He can recall what the other identity has done, even if he can't control it while it's happening. He remembers his past pretty well, and so his daily life.

His dissociation does cause disturbance in his normal life, but since his first dissociative episode was caused by the Cleansing ceremony, and is mainly triggered by the Elixir (as Unknown said himself, he needs the elixir to wake up), he does not fit in the last criteria either.

It is important to point out that, despite him suffering from severe childhood trauma, it isn't implied that he showed early dissociative symptoms, and even if dissociation can be manifested at any age, it is most likely that this was caused by Rika's torture.

With 3/5 criteria, we cannot diagnose DID, which forces us to look for a differential diagnosis.

Saeran does not have DID.

What is Saeran's disorder then?

With DID ruled out, we're still left with a wide variety of diagnoses when it comes to dissociative disorders. The WHO recognizes 10 entities within this family:

Among these conditions, there is one that fits surprisingly well to all the circumstances described in canon: Other Specified Dissociative Disorder Type 2, proposed by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, DSM-5.

OSDD2 is a clinical diagnosis where the subject experience dissociative symptoms manifested as prolonged changes in their identity, that might be accompanied by a disruption on their consciousness and/or memory; as a consequence of indoctrination, torture, brainwashing, and/or being recruited into cults.

The longer the brainwashing, the longer the symptoms prevail, which may worsen this identity disruption across time.

OSDD is an entity that has less strict diagnostic criteria, which can be summarized as:

Experience dissociative symptoms

Not fully meet criteria for other diagnosis

Identity disruption is a consequence of brainwashing.

Saeran meets these three criteria, which allows us to say that he very likely has OSDD2.

Unfortunately, OSDD2 is a very understudied and underreported condition, so it is very difficult to find more information about it other than its diagnostic criteria.

Finally, as I will explore in the conclusions, it is important to keep in mind that there are details that we do not know about Saeran. Elements about his past, future and evolution, which perhaps, in case new canon content is revealed, will make us reconsider this diagnosis in favor of a different one. But for now, with the information and evidence provided in this same post, i can safely conclude that Saeran has OSDD2.

Other, yet less likely, possible diagnosis: Partial Dissociative Identity Disorder (also known as OSDD1) as the second most fit to him, since he only doesn't meet 1 criteria (it is stated it can't be caused by drugs).

Much less, yet also likely, possible diagnosis: Secondary Dissociative Syndrome, Unspecified Dissociative Disorder.

Conclusions

It is always important to keep in mind that diagnoses are a consensus made by experienced people, who find similar patterns in certain ones and associate them with a syndrome or condition. Disorders as such, describe a group of people, adapting to them, it will never be the other way around. Diagnoses don't have to fit people's situation, not perfectly at least, and that doesn't mean their circumstances are any less valid or painful.

Diagnoses are meant to adapt to people, people don't have to adapt their situations to fit into a diagnosis.

Despite everything, Saeran will always be one person. Each of his fragments forms part of him, and therefore there isn't a Saeran less valid than other, or less "real" than other.

Lastly, if Saeran does indeed have OSDD2, with time and therapy love, it's very possible for him to become a single identity again. One of the characteristics of OSDD2 is that, since the person's identity is already structured beforehand, the traumatic event generally only manages to disturb it and not fragment it (since the age where structural integration consolidates has already passed), so recovery is very possible.

However, this is not an absolute. If dissociation continues to be encouraged for some reason, it will be difficult for him to reintegrate. Hence his need to be in a healthy, supportive environment that allows him to heal.

Of course, these are mostly assumptions, since reaching an accurate and definitive conclusion would require talking, studying and working with Saeran himself, and not with the limited information we have about him.

Finally, after all this, we can summarize this analysis in:

1. Saeran doesn't have DID 2. Saeran most likely has OSDD2 3. This may change with time and circumstances he could face in the future. Since by the end of the game, he has just begun his healing process.

If you managed to read this till here, I hope you enjoyed this analysis as much as I enjoyed writing it. Any comments will be appreciated ♡

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References

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, American Psychiatric Asociation 5° edition, 2014.

ICD-11 International Classification of Diseases for Mortality and Morbidity Statistics, World Health Organization Eleventh Revision, 2022

El Yo Atormentado. La Disociación Estructural Y El Tratamiento De La Traumatización Crónica. Onno Van Der Hart, 2011.

#mystic messenger #mysticmessenger #mysme #mm saeran #choi saeran #mysme saeran #saeran choi #mysme ray #mysme unknown #mm unknown #saeran after ending #se saeran #choi twins #did osdd

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marshmallowprotection · 9 months

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Mystic Messenger 7th Summer Event

I was on the money with my speculation. I was right on the money and there is nothing you guys can do to stop me from talking about this photo in its entirety. Oh, my God. I am frothing at the mouth at this very moment because Cheritz gave me everything I could have ever wanted in a photo.

It's Ray DRESSED as Unknown, and that is someone I never saw coming.

See, I have egg on my face because they said Ray in their post last night and I never thought they were going to throw this at me. That's because they've never done something like this before. Usually, when he is mislabeled, it's just one of those things that happen now and again because of marketing or trying to avoid spoilers, but in this case, they actually went out of their way to bamboozle me.

I never could have expected something like this. I am most definitely not complaining because this isn't something I didn't know I needed in my life. Unknown and Ray are my favorites so the fact that they are combined in this situation is sending me. I didn't know I needed this but I'm happy that I have it.

On that note, does anybody have commissions open because I need more Idol Ray in my life? I want my MC to be in the audience cheering him on with a penlight.

When I tell you guys I cried when I saw this, I am not kidding about that. I cried. There are a lot of reasons why I cried and we'll get into that in a second. First I think we need to appreciate this for what it is. I think this is the first time in a long time my speculation has been 100% accurate.

This photo is split into three different parts just as I expected it would be, Rika is trying to pedal the soda, and V is in his believer robes which I joked about because the color was accurate but I wasn't sure if they would actually go through with it, and Ray painted his fingernails and that's sending me to Heaven.

V cannot believe what he is seeing. Need I remind everybody in this fandom that his mother was a musician and knowing that fact makes this a hell of a lot funnier when you consider this was Rika's plot. I would not put it past her to have thought about using music as a ploy to mess with him, not only because it's something they shared with her love of Zen, but because she wants to use everything she has against V.

The context in this situation is amazing. I don't know if any of you have seen the new Twitter thread but I'm going to share it with you.

[Link]

When I tell you guys I screamed, I mean it. I screamed because Ray was so smug when he said he has a cute face. That was a lot of confidence in a short amount of time, and if he looked at me after saying that, I would have melted and done anything he told me to do. I mean, I would already do that in general, he knows what I am.

She literally decided out of the blue that she was just going to sell him out because he has a cute face. I mean, she's not wrong, but that's such a Rika thing to do. After all, it's not the first time she pushed him into being an idol.

So, what I'm going to say here is a little silly. I have to tell all of you the implication of what this photo means. This is Ray and he is dressed as Unknown. He has no means to be able to dress that way without us helping him.

That means the MC is the one that chose his wardrobe for him.

That means we are the ones who looked at him and his princely attire and decided he needed to look like he just walked out of Hot Topic. See, my favorite type of character is a toss-between princely and edgelord, so that's even funnier to me. Saeran Choi is my full package deal when it comes to aesthetics, I swear.

I wouldn't want to change Ray out of his magenta coat to dress like Unknown. Well, I say that, but if I tell him to wear that and he takes off the jacket, then I can put it on... oh, yes. That's the best way to get a boyfriend's sweater.

But it is the single-handed thought that the MC is the one that put him in this outfit that is sending me to another plane of existence. Can you imagine doing that to him? Because that is way more funny to me than the idea that Ray chose to wear that himself. But it is always possible that he did choose to wear it himself because he often says that his taste and clothes are nothing like the outfit Rika gave him.

I also need to point out that that tattoo would have had to have been drawn on with Sharpie or temporary ink. He doesn't have the tattoo in Another Story. That is a fact that a lot of people get confused about despite the fact that we are shown a visual of him in the shower that proves he doesn't have a huge tattoo.

I suppose you could read this as a bonus AU where in some universe, Ray is the one who gets the tattoo first... which, ouch, I don't know if I can handle that... "I proved myself, body and mind, to my Savior so it isn't possible she'll throw me away. If I brand myself with the cause of Mint Eye... I'll... I'll be safe."

But, what that also implies is that there is a picture of him with that tattoo drawn in some capacity lingering in his room at Magenta. It also means that despite the fact that he and Suit Saeran inevitably disappear after not being able to live up to the potential the Savior wants them to, Unknown stumbles across that design.

Ray: QUICK, I HAVE TO DESIGN SOMETHING EDGY FOR THIS OUTFIT.

Ray: A dragon!

Ray: ME for Mint Eye!

Ray: This certainly won't effect anything later in life!

Two and a Half years later...

Unknown: I don't know who designed this tattoo but it's sick. I need it on my body.

It is so gut-wrenchingly painful for me to think about that. It means that a piece of Ray still exists. Unknown does not even know where that tattoo came from nor does he know who designed it. Because he doesn't get to know Ray one-on-one since I personally believe he isn't Suit Saeran. I view Unknown and Suit Saeran as separate people, after all.

The reason why he has the tattoo is because Ray drew it. I have long wondered where he came up with the idea for the tattoo, and it turns out it wasn't Unknown at all. Ray was the one who drew it and I don't know what to do with that information other than cry.

The Savior only gave him a short amount of time to figure out how to be an idol and he said I'm going to have a tattoo. Sure, should we just assume this is an Easter Egg and the artist might not have known all the details involved in the story of Mystic Messenger? Sure, you can think that, but for the sake of my enjoyment, I'm going along with the theory that I'm right, lol.

That's something that an idol has. Ray says. He draws a sick dragon and a twisted ME. That tattoo is so large and ridiculous, but I love it dearly. Ray, honey, You Are My Forever Babe. But I don't know what to do with you sometimes.

[If you want to know how I think Unknown gets the tattoo, I have a post on that.]

Rika looks amazing here and there is no lie about that. I actually really like the outfit she's wearing even though we can't see a lot of it. It speaks to a music festival because of how simple but trendy it appears. She's trying to be that friendly face that can do no wrong. She wants you to buy her homemade soda, and you should do that.

You should do that right now. It's good for you. There's nothing wrong with it.

A little bubbly soda won't hurt you. What do you mean it's burning your throat as we speak? It's not doing that at all! You're just excited by the electric energy of this concert! Drink more soda! I think the important question to ask ourselves here is how many cans of soda did she bottle and does she think it's going to work out as well as she thinks it does?

I don't think we need to talk about the fact that she is wearing a cross necklace. I don't want to unpack her religious trauma right now. I don't have time to do that right now but I will say it made me laugh my ass off. On a side note, her hair looks good here and I'm jealous of it.

This man looks like his soul just left his body.

I don't know what he's thinking at this very specific moment in time but I know he's not happy to realize that Rika has decided to sell out Ray as an idol. I mean that's probably the last thing he expected to happen. But, it makes sense, Rika loves music and if she thought it would work, she would absolutely push Saeran, Ray, Unknown, etc, into doing that for her. But, it hurts to think about V... to think about those complicated feelings he holds about his mother...

He kind of wanted to learn how to play the violin to get closer to his mother... He's already got complicated feelings about musicians and I don't know if his adopted son here being an idol is doing much good for him. It reminds me of the bad ending in the RAE.

He wasn't particularly comfortable in that situation either and this just reminds me of that. Which is a shame, because that ending is so horrible. It is one of the worst endings that you can get in this entire series.

I don't think we need to get into that in general, but just know that if you want to hurt yourself, aim to get that bad ending. If I can say nothing else, I'm really happy to see his long hair because I think it's the most attractive aesthetic for him. I've always liked that style on him a lot more than the traditional one. I don't know what it is about that look for him but it just works. He's like a wet kitten in a cardboard box.

I can't believe she decided to hold the concert at 7:00 p.m. I mean, I can most certainly believe she would do that, but it feels like spitting in Ray's face. Why would you do that, Rika? I know it's just a cute little Easter egg to remind us of his brother but oh my God that's awful.

I don't think anybody I've seen talking about this has pointed it out but the background colors are literally the same as Ray and V's hearts. It's the magenta and teal hearts. I thought that was a good touch. I do know that it's also in homage to the fact that it's Mint Eye and the building is called Magenta. It's a 2-in-1 package deal. Just like the fact that I got to see Ray dressed as Unknown. This is a two-for-one deal!

I do think it's interesting that they chose to make the penlights white. That means his image color is white. Oh, yeah, idols have image colors that correlate to those penlights so those things are very important! I didn't expect white. But, I didn't expect him to be an idol ever again after that bad ending. I mean that ending is horrible but he has great hair in it so like we're winning and losing.

Best day of my life. I won Unknown and Ray.

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