#oh no george dont do that id be devastated oh no george oh noo pls george oh no

[ilynpilled]

what do you think of valonqar Jaime? Do you think it's going to happen?

This is going to be very long, and will discuss a lot of things. Sorry in advance. Also do not expect anything truly conclusive either.

To preface: Alright, so I am not big on theory crafting and focusing all my energy on predicting what events will or will not happen. I have many different reasons for this. I think a lot of this fandom expects “endgames” to be all encompassing character defining moments. They want easy answers to questions they have set themselves. Even though this is not at all how this series functions to me. Sure, a death and an ending can speak to a character, but it will not be defining, especially in the cases of the major characters. If that was the case, our main and only takeaway from Ned’s story should be how his failure to play the game got him to lose his head because #thisisnotlikeotherfantasies here the #hero #dies, being the honorable protagonist = death. That is clearly not the only point. It is those of who view this story as nihilistic torture porn that believe this. Its realism, that should never be misunderstood as nihilism, does not set out to deal divine justice to all of its characters based on a concoction of all of their moral choices. Especially the PoV characters. For instance, much of the reason I find the theme of “the heroism lies in the attempt” so profound is because it frames heroism as defined by acts DESPITE of this reality. So on a meta textual level, these characters do not act motivated by receiving rewards from the narrative.

“My own heroes are the dreamers, those men and women who tried to make the world a better place than when they found it, whether in small ways or great ones. Some succeeded, some failed, most had mixed results... but it is the effort that's heroic, as I see it. Win or lose, I admire those who fight the good fight.”

This is the thesis conveyed through moments like “No chance, and no choice.”

This fight he is referring is to is the macro, with characters destined to try and enact radical change that truly challenges the very structure of the world that they are inhabiting. But I also think it can be applied to the micro: internal battles. There are so many characters in this series that are battling themselves primarily. George uses the canvas of a feudal society to have his characters carve out their identity in a world of rigid constructs full contradictions. The characters’ heart will always be at conflict with itself, but he aims to achieve the same with the readers’.

I do not think we should expect George to provide us with a completely conclusive answer to what we should take away about some of his ‘protagonists’, or how we should ultimately feel about them. This is why it bothers me that so much of what governs conversations regarding Jaime’s endgame, and the valonqar theory specifically, is the word “redemption”. This need to reduce this complex character and his journey to a word that is essentially a media trope drives me nuts. It always goes on to become an argument of “he is on a journey of redemption” (sure, whatever that means), “no, actually he is on a journey of subverting redemption. the point is that you are being tricked!!!” (ok, feels dismissive), “no, it is a subversion of the subversion!” (ok enough). The way these labels are used all feel like a reductionist idea of an arc. What is “redemption” even supposed to mean here? Why do we expect George to decide this for us and set it in stone? So much of Jaime is about perception, contradictions, and complex moral dilemmas with no easy answers. Why would any part of his endgame or choices of great importance down the line be not that? I think Jaime’s attempts at change, and the decisions he makes in pursuit of redefining his self concept, be it successful or not, should be the ultimate deciding factor for the reader in what they make of him, not just where he ends up (as with most of the characters).

“One of the things I wanted to explore with Jaime, and with so many of the characters, is the whole issue of redemption. When can we be redeemed? Is redemption even possible? I don’t have an answer. But when do we forgive people?” “I don’t know the answer, but these are questions worth thinking about. I want there to be a possibility of redemption for us, because we all do terrible things. We should be able to be forgiven. Because if there is no possibility of redemption, what’s the answer then?” - GRRM

Does not sound very concrete to me. This is an idea that does not even have to extracted from his interviews, it is written all over this series.

"If half of an onion is black with rot, it is a rotten onion. A man is good, or he is evil." - Mel vs “A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward. You were a hero and a smuggler." - Stannis

"Most deserve to be forgotten. The heroes will always be remembered. The best." - Loras vs                “The best and the worst."..."And a few who were a bit of both.” - Jaime

I also think another reason I avoid putting much effort into forming ideas of what will happen is because I do not really gain that much satisfaction in guessing an event happening. I much prefer to pick apart the event once it happens. Because these events will be complex with a lot of implications. Knowing the “if” or “it” without the “how” and the “why” is whatever to me. Of course so many of the mysteries are fun to address in your head, I’m just hesitant to come to conclusions about them without actually reading how the events play out and are written.  Also I think a lot of it is just people being more insistent on just pulling whatever out of symbolism and twisting lines into that of vague foreshadowing rather than looking at the grander structure and what would make sense thematically.

Now that that is over with, I am gonna actually tackle this question. This is gonna be Jaime & Cersei endgame discussion, not just the valonqar. 

CW: discussion of abuse, violence, suicide, incest, you know the drill with this topic.

To me, Jaime valonqar certainly leans towards the “how” and “why” rather than the “if”. The main reason I am really leaning towards Jaime is because I really cannot see another as thematically meaningful alternative. I’d personally hate it if it were Loras or some other “little brother” (Aegon, Victarion etc). I think a lot of the parallels that are in the text that are used to argue that Loras is a candidate for instance are primarily there to juxtapose the Tyrells and the Lannisters more than anything. Like I do not know how that would really serve Cersei’s character. After all, that is who this is most relevant to, it would be her conclusion for certain. Tyrion is a red herring for Cersei, which is extremely important. The narrative being in accordance with Cersei’s paranoia about him (she also tends convince herself of it using ableism) would not work for me, sorry.  Jaime is very likely, but if it is not him, I would only really accept it to be Cersei herself. Part of it is the desire to not have her death be her being overpowered and killed by an ex. Obviously, I do not know how that would work, the prophecy would have to become less literal. Maybe she poisons herself with the strangler in an act of suicide, as everything collapses around her, as an act of tragic agency and addition to the poetic nature of her downfall being self inflicted. This route makes me think of Ibsen’s (the father of realism in theatre) Hedda Gabler. I see a lot of parallels between these characters, with how their nature, nurture, and the patriarchal systems they inhabit affect them. This play gradually deconstructs Hedda as both a victim and a perpetrator, whose actions are influenced by the patriarchy that suppresses her identity and inner desires, rendering her inhuman. Ibsen comments on the destructive capacity of static social constructs by creating a character that turns into the devil of the story due to a world that ceaselessly strips her of her humanity, very much like Cersei. An essential aspect in making Hedda into a functional character is not removing her agency. Ibsen demonstrates an understanding that being a perpetrator does not negate her victimhood, and vice versa. She still makes choices. It is Hedda’s stubbornness and power hunger that leave her to her ruin in a world that does not allow her the ‘freedom’ or ‘power’ that she desperately desires (again, much like Cersei). This part could become confusing if you are not familiar with the play, but when Lovborg “loses” his manuscript, Hedda knowingly withholds her knowledge of its location in an attempt to control Lovborg’s destiny (gain control over others bc she has no true autonomy as a woman, again, much like Cersei). Lovborg refers to his manuscript as his and Thea’s child, saying that he would rather destroy it than leave it in evil hands. He says to Hedda: “But to kill his child—that is not the worst thing a father can do to it”. By this statement, Ibsen makes a parallel to Hedda’s life and her relationship with her father. Her father abandoned her and sentenced her to the life of a woman in a world that is restrictive and cruel. This has similarities to Cersei’s relationship with Tywin, and how much of a presence he, his conditioning, as well as how he used her in bridal slavery to gain political power, has in her life. Lovborg continues with: “The devil knows into what hands it may have fallen—who may have had their clutches on it.” The devil’s hands in the case of Hedda’s life is the static social contruct of gender. In the same way that the manuscript is trapped in Hedda’s clutches, she is trapped in a patriarchal system. The dramatic irony of Hedda becoming the devil whose hands the transcript has fallen into demonstrates the results of these static social constructs that turn the victim into a perpetrator. A perpetrator that burns the manuscript representing hope in the story and kills her child in the process of freeing herself from the world through suicide. Hedda ultimately kills herself to not let the men in her life rule over her, shape her into what she is not, and not accept her defeat.  I acknowledge that there are a lot of problematic aspects in framing a suicide as the only means of escape for Cersei from the patriarchy, but I think it would function well thematically.

I agree that a lot of the intrigue about the prophecy comes down to Cersei misunderstanding it, and it being Jaime would be something she does not see coming, hence it would function very well. But what if she starts to suspect him too?


“No one knows. We've had no further word of him. The woman may have been the Evenstar's daughter, Lady Brienne." Her. The queen remembered the Maid of Tarth, a huge, ugly, shambling thing who dressed in man's mail. Jaime would never abandon me for such a creature. My raven never reached him, elsewise he would have come.


Like she is currently overdosing on copium, but what if her character goes down a path of complete paranoia when this fact becomes more of a certainty that she cannot deny? What if her paranoia about the valonqar is what drives her to become her own valonqar? I think that irony would function very well too, especially in a self-fulfilling Oedipus kind of way. As for the pronouns subject, maybe it speaks to the constructs of gender that is such a primary focus in Cersei’s story, and how she always craved to be a man, or at least have what a man does in this society. However my issue with this is the “little brother” part. Truly there has to be some major mental gymnastics done here to make that fit neatly. Maybe there are multiple valonqars contributing to her downfall simultaneously, including Jaime? And they are not physically present to kill her, they are just causing the downfall of her regime, “choking her” with their armies? Maybe the valonqar part was never real, and that is the real tragedy of all of it? Do not want to over-complicate this, so I am leaving it here. Again, requires a lot of mental gymnastics to justify this scenario, which speaks to its unlikelihood. 

Thematically, what needs to happen is for their romanticized idea of “one soul in two bodies, going from womb to tomb” to be subverted, because obviously it is a narrative that has been deconstructed and proved to be a belief system they made up to justify themselves and what they gain from the relationship (my post elaborating on it here: link). This subversion can happen with a murder/suicide, Jaime killing her and then living on, Jaime living on and even being potentially destroyed by that decision etc. It can also be subverted by it not happening at all, as in one of them dies alone, tragically reflecting on this very belief, calling attention to their “other half’s” notable absence. So a complete divergence in regards to their characters would also work. I am pretty much okay with literally everything, if it is executed well, except for what happened in the show lmao.

Anyway, if Jaime valonqar happens, it will have to be a very loaded decision. I do not think it will be motivated by angry revenge because of the infidelity, as I do not view Jaime’s anger towards Cersei as exclusively rooted in her infidelity to begin with (plus if that was the case how come he did not do it already). The misogynistic rage is very much present though, I just do not think Jaime would actually resort to murdering someone like Cersei purely motivated by rage as a result of that betrayal, especially in his current state. He makes threats in his head constantly, but like his confrontation with Lancel, they do not come to fruition. "Only a fool makes threats he's not prepared to carry out.” is to me a very ironic line with this man.

However:

"How is Cersei? As beautiful as ever?"

"Radiant." Fickle. "Golden." False as fool's gold. Last night he dreamed he'd found her fucking Moon Boy. He'd killed the fool and smashed his sister's teeth to splinters with his golden hand, just as Gregor Clegane had done to poor Pia. In his dreams Jaime always had two hands (interesting); one was made of gold, but it worked just like the other. "The sooner we are done with Riverrun, the sooner I'll be back at Cersei's side." What Jaime would do then he did not know.

Then two Jaime chapters later:

Ser Ilyn drew a finger across his throat.

"No," said Jaime. "Tommen has lost a brother, and the man he thought of as his father. If I were to kill his mother, he would hate me for it . . . and that sweet little wife of his would find a way to turn that hatred to the benefit of Highgarden."

Ser Ilyn smiled in a way Jaime did not like. An ugly smile. An ugly soul. (very interesting part of the quote, read this wonderful meta about what Ilyn represents and you can come to your conclusions about it: link, not getting into it here)

Of course, taking Jaime’s words at face value is not how it works with him. This goes both ways, good and bad. Jaime is a character that often purposefully deludes himself. That in itself is a major character flaw, but it is different from taking all his words and thoughts at face value. Things that actually bother Jaime tend to be things that he completely represses and forms different narratives in his head for, to cope. The reason he does this is because he feels doubt about them. They are things that actually threaten his view of the world (like the amoral nihilism he justifies himself for having bc contradictions, flawed moral constructs, the impossibility of being a true knight, life being shit, his romanticization of his relationship with cersei etc) and most of this guilt or things he is in denial over he only manages to actually start to confront in dreams, a way of his subconscious mind to communicate with his conscious mind (attraction to Brienne, guilt over Rhaegar’s children, his concern with how he is perceived, the death of his mother, what he and Cersei became.) Before he can confront them consciously, he often does so subconsciously. This applies to his violent anger towards Cersei. The self-deluding can also apply to his attachment to her, that I think is still there, and his reasoning for not killing her is not exclusively what he claims here. If it was, and that is what is stopping him, Tommen is soon to be dead anyway. melrosing’s interpretation also rings true to me though regarding the themes of the futility of vengeance that is so prevalent in ASOIAF, and how a lot of his thoughts of vengeance seem to come to a dead end. It would not make him into a person he is thriving to be, but a person of the likes of The Mountain and Aegon the Unworthy, as he subconsciously points out. His loudly proclaimed future revenge against Vargo Hoat & co. also went nowhere for him (the brutality of what happens to Vargo Hoat kind of disgusts him, in fact, “somehow revenge had lost its savor ”- Jaime III, AFfC). After all, it is not gonna bring his hand back, I fear. Neither would just killing Cersei and closing that relationship make him a good person. Currently, a feeling represented in his actions regarding Cersei’s possible death and the letter is disillusionment. There is an acceptance that she has been spiraling and that their fates are not entwined. There is also an aspect of grief, if you read the snowflake in that one line as a tear. But it is not complete detachment. She is still lingering at the back of his mind in ADwD. Could be argued that this is a force of habit that he manages to push away for the first time, and then chooses to go in a different direction all together, away from her. The point is, Jaime has notably changed. So did Cersei. And so did their relationship. Jaime being so hung up on her cheating currently to me also speaks to his reluctance to face that this relationship was always very broken in its foundation, and that so many of their justifications and acts to sustain it were abhorrent. Jaime’s really has to come to terms with how this reflects on him as an individual.

"The things I do for love," he said with loathing.

"If I'd let kingslaying become a habit, as he liked to say, I could have taken you as my wife for all the world to see. I'm not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I've done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell . . ."

“They fought for half the night . . . well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank. Past midnight, the queen summoned me inside. The king was passed out snoring on the Myrish carpet. I asked my sister if she wanted me to carry him to bed. She told me I should carry her to bed, and shrugged out of her robe. I took her on Raymun Darry's bed after stepping over Robert. If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then. He would not have been the first king to die upon my sword . . . but you know that story, don't you?" He slashed at a tree branch, shearing it in half. "As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, 'I want.' I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead." The things I do for love. "It was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . ." The pockmarks on Ser Ilyn's face were black holes in the torchlight, as dark as Jaime's soul.

There is certainly an awareness in Jaime about the vile things he has done. He has self hatred about it, this to me is clear. He justified it to himself in the name of this relationship. But as he changed, as the relationship was deconstructed, and as he learned of the infidelity  (which represents a hole in the illusion he made inside of his head), it fully crumbles. Now he has many more things to reflect.

Also, there is a clear set up of paralleling Cersei with Aerys, doubt that is not building up to something. Do not think this would not play a part in the valonqar situation: “Even in the baleful glow, Cersei had been beautiful to look upon. She'd stood with one hand on her breast, her lips parted, her green eyes shining. She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said. The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him.”

I also believe that AFfC, the letter burning, them being “effectively estranged” according to George, could be about how their relationship had moved past a point of return, rather than closing completely. Like this does not mean to me that they will no longer hold relevance in each other’s narratives, or that they will not meet ever again. I think the romantic aspect is over, but I also think they will need to ‘conclude’ their relationship in some form and meet again with this change being the new normal. Hence she is still present in his thoughts in the ADwD chapter. Though I very much understand the preference to have that conclusion be him just no longer associating with Cersei anymore, for both of their sake.

“And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

The strangling certainly has very violent implications, but I genuinely have no idea about the logistics of a one handed man wrapping his “hands” around her neck, if we are meant to take that literally. There is the hand of the king chain theory, which has merit (like his offhand threat of strangling Sybell with her seashell necklace when he is angry about Jeyne and her situation), but I think that would require Jaime to be her hand, to make the chain “his”, which I do not see happening at this point considering where their relationship is, unless Jaime tricks her. There is, again, also the strangler (poison), and that could be his weapon of choice. It could also be worded in such a way so the major point of it is the idea of intimate betrayal, with the technicalities holding less relevance, as it is more metaphorical. I also have my gripes with this part of the prophecy, and do have a desire to have it be subverted in some form. People already want her to get a brutal dehumanizing death, if it turns out to be in anyway overly gratifying (really doubt it, but let’s acknowledge that George’s writing of Cersei is not flawless when it comes to this, and Lysa’s death falls under this too) it will leave me pretty bitter.

The issues within their relationship will not be excluded from it though, like it will not JUST be a pure kingslayer 2.0 situation, that I am certain of. Like you cannot extract the history of that relationship from such an act. I also do not really want it just to be a purely heroic mercy kill where we put down the mad woman like old yeller, for very obvious reasons. Anyways, regardless of the circumstances, then we might be left with Jaime and the aftermath, as this will no doubt impact his character if he lives on. 

Some people remove the potential of the kingslayer parallel from it by moving it away from KL (and the caches of wildfire) to Casterly Rock. I know of the theory that the twins will die like the Reynes, and that is when the valonqar will come to fruition. Not really sold on it. Read a post that put it similarly: I completely get the thematic appeal of Tywin legacy collapsing upon itself, but I just do not think that holds as much weight character wise for the twins. I don’t think it is as monumental in Jaime and Cersei’s narratives. Jaime actively rejected it, and Cersei’s desires and arc are located at KL, her status as queen and her children dying under the weight of their crowns, so I think it is more fitting for her eventual demise to be there. I just feel that the two of them left the place behind them multiple times with the choices they made, unlike Tyrion who is very fixated on it, and whose character it holds a lot of significance to. Him near destroying it will serve just as well for this idea of Tywin’s own children bringing his legacy to a ruin.

Anyway, what I want for the Lannister siblings is a more of an active role in destroying the Lannister legacy (be it with the intention of doing so or not) rather than just going down in flames with it. I also think a lot of this theory relies on a very literal read of Jaime’s weirwood dream, which is primarily metaphorical and about his conscience anyway, not to mention the way that dream goes does not really fit with it either because JC end up separated in it, as in she leaves/dies before him, at least that is how I read it. It also does not completely rule out the possibility of dying with Cersei after killing her, again it is very open to interpretation in my eyes.

The reason I am hesitant to believe that they will die together is a combination of things, the dream included. I am certain everybody already covered this, but I am putting it in here for the sake of practicality. It will be surface level analysis so bear with me, I just want to speed through it.

“What place is this?” “Your place.” The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who’d lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father’s voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they’d made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.” “Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness.” Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go. “Stay with me,” Jaime pleaded. “Don’t leave me here alone.” But they were leaving. “Don’t leave me in the dark!” “The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.” “Sister!” he shouted. “Stay with me. Stay!” There was no reply but the soft sound of retreating footsteps.”

This segment represents the Lannister legacy. Cersei abandons him to join the Lannisters, all of whom named are dead at this point. She as a character does not attempt to distance herself from the Lannister legacy, and more-so embraces it, because it is the only way she knows she could attain and sustain the power she craves. With Jaime, his relationship is more complicated with it. (Here is some analysis of color symbolism to elaborate on it: link)

“In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought. In this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.”

A new light and a new purpose is made for Jaime. That purpose being Brienne and the example she represents. His character is established to have purpose past his relationship with Cersei. He made Cersei his “maiden”, co-dependently making her his purpose. She was made into an ideal, an ideal that covered up the flaws that the Lannisters represent: power hunger, apathy, exceptionalism, brutality, etc. His story might not end with hers. However, now Brienne is the new ideal. I think the context of these two relationships are very distinct, so I do not think his romanticization of her is the same. I also think how he views Brienne and her ‘pure morality’ will be challenged through LSH, when even she will be placed in situations where she must make choices that bloody her hands. This will probably lead to the more nuanced conclusions on morality and knighthood. Long Night: I am not sure how this will go, how long Cersei will live etc. However, I am fairly certain of Jaime having involvement in the Long Night. The fact that George spends time on him training again as a competent fighter feels like a chekhov’s gun that will have purpose past a LSH confrontation, not to mention the whole Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail thing for JB. Widow’s Wail, which was just an #edgelord naming by Joff, also feels like a rather ironic name considering valonqar.

Anyway, when we look at the prophetic weirwood dream, a lot of Jaime’s trauma is presented with imagery of the Long Night and fighting The Others. Sure, it is metaphorical for his internal battle, but the packaging is deliberate:

“They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. ”

“The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. ”

“The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne’s burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.”

Another instance from his second ASOS chapter:

In his dreams the dead came burning, gowned in swirling green flames. Jaime danced around them with a golden sword, but for every one he struck down two more arose to take his place.

Same is the case for Brienne’s own dreams and how her trauma is conveyed:

“she dreamed about the men she'd killed. They danced around her, mocking her, pinching at her as she slashed at them with her sword. She cut them all to bloody ribbons, yet still they swarmed around her . . .”

After all, “the night is dark and full of terrors, and so are dreams.”

So yeah, flaming swords are just the tip of the iceberg.

In terms of Jaime’s ending: The weirwood dream certainly hints at him not surviving, but it is also very intentionally open. His ‘prophecy’ certainly feels less set in stone than Cersei’s. Especially with Cersei’s words being plural, with only his flame going out at the end: “the flames will burn so long as you live” “when they die so must you”.

“The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne’s burned, as the ghosts came rushing in”

Whether that be literal, as in he falls in the fight against the Others, or metaphorical, that he succumbs to his conscience and self hatred in some way (“ghosts” of his past, the impact of valonqar can be relevant here). The point is that Brienne’s light is still burning. She will carry his legacy, with a next generation of knights. That legacy will be the conclusion of the series’s deconstruction of knighthood, that Brienne carries with her. A conclusion they came to together through their journey. (my metas about it: link, link)

If he lives, I would be fine with him taking the black, or being attached to a duty that he does not desire to serve the realm for the rest of his life as atonement. Wouldn’t be crazy about him living happily ever after on Tarth because I do not think it would fit with the series, nor do I feel like that is necessary for the romance between Jaime and Brienne to be incredibly meaningful and thematically fulfilling.

And that concludes my thoughts. Hope this satisfies you, anon. I am never having another thought again, this took all the energy out of me.