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sweetestpopcorn · 3 years

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Do you really think Daemon Targaryen is an example of a grey character? Daemon is supposed to be 'light and dark in equal parts' but... we never see it? We see him degrade his first wife Rhea and her homeland the Vale all the time (but does try to steal said homeland once she's dead), jape about his infant nephew Baelon dying, child-grooming his 14-year-old-niece Rhaenyra, possibly murdering the son of his greatest ally Laenor, sending Blood and Cheese to kill a perfectly innocent 6-year-old Prince Jaehaerys, and to counter all that... what? What he did that made him a good person?

Hi!

First of all I'm sorry it took me so long to answer this but this required some work on my part so I could give a satisfactory answer (I hope).

Second, I would like to reiterate that I will judge Daemon's morality not according to the current time we live in and our universe and laws, but according to the ASOIAF universe and the time during which he lived (to the best of my abilities). I know, I know, why am I giving this warning this should be obvious... not in the ASOIAF fandom unfortunately.

Third, finally answering the question, I think that issue is far from being a straightforward one. Any character in F&B will be that much harder to judge than characters in the other ASOIAF novels (e.g., Dany, Jon, Cersei, Catelyn, Joffrey...) because we don't get their POVs. We don't even see them as events are unfolding and they are being perceived by a third party whose POV we do get - like we do with Robb Stark for instance - instead we get to read about someone writing about them based on what other people who were not reliable sources, wrote about them centuries before. F&B itself is written in a way where pretty much you get to choose what you believe in from what information you are given, and boy oh boy do we have some wild takes (!) not backed up by facts! But I guess it is interesting to a point that you can choose your version - under certain limits of course that don't directly contradict the facts given (though some people will also do this, but sure why not?).

Daemon, though a vast portion of the story is focused on him, since him along with Rhaenyra are the most developed characters of the Dance, remains a very illusive and mysterious character. Many times you are told what he did but you are told very little about why he did it - hence the ability people have to choose what they want to believe, or what they think makes more sense. I do believe him to be a grey character in the sense that I would argue perhaps the only real "black" characters we get in ASOIAF would be Joffrey, Ramsay, and the Mountain (maybe Euron as well but I am not 100% sold on that yet). These are characters who don't have redeeming qualities. They are cruel, and they like to be cruel. None of them had a fall from grace where they started good and then turned bad, and none of them had any sort of redemption where they could have started bad and then became good. With these three characters from the oldest memories people have of them we see them doing bad deeds and showing no remorse. Some examples I can think of at the top of my head are Joffrey opening a pregnant cat to see her kittens, the Mountain murdering his sister and pressing Sandor's head against the fire, the latter because he was playing with one of his toys, and Ramsay we have his adventures with OG Reek and of course him likely killing his half-brother.

Daemon isn't such a character.

Yes we do see him do some very... reproachable (nasty) things such as the ones you mentioned. But he also did some very good things. I will try to list some of his qualities and good deeds.

Daemon reformed the Gold Cloaks, making them into a true order men were proud to serve in. He inspired so much loyalty that decades after he was no longer their Lord Commander many of the men still remembered him and betrayed the Greens for Daemon - not because they were on the side of the Blacks, or because they thought Rhaenyra was the rightful queen, they did it because of Daemon. It takes a hardworking person, a talented fighter and a true leader to inspire this sort of loyalty, because they were loyal to him, they did not act out of fear.

"Daemon gave us these cloaks, he said, and they are gold no matter how you turn them." (Fire and Blood, pg. 456)

Still about his time in the Gold Cloaks, while his methods were at times cruel, they were effective, so he had (some) sense of justice. And here we see the grey. One on side he did good, on the other, his means were dark and he seemed to like them that way.

"That he made the city more orderly no man could doubt, but his discipline was a brutal one." (Fire and Blood, pg. 355).

As a young man, Daemon also seemed to be well liked by his family. Viserys had fond memories of him and a great love for him - which made him forgive Daemon time and time again - and his grandfather Jaehaerys thought him worthy of Dark Sister. Here it is worth mentioning that although Jaehaerys had had several sons, only to Daemon did he gift Dark Sister. Would he have done so if Daemon was this complete psychopath? This popcorn thinks not.

“Though the king did not wish Daemon to succeed him, he remained fond of his younger brother, and was quick to forgive his many offenses.” (Fire and Blood, pg. 355).

“Though far from being blind to his brother’s flaws, he cherished his memories of the free-spirited, adventurous boy that Daemon had been.” (Fire and Blood, pg. 358)

“(...) Prince Daemon had earned his knight’s spurs at six-and-ten, and had been given Dark Sister by the Old King himself in recognition of his prowess.” (Fire and Blood, pg. 354)

Daemon was also a charming man. Much like Rhaenyra, he could charm those around them and make them love him... when he wanted and could keep his anger in check (again, much like Rhaenrya).

“As charming as he was hot-tempered (...)”. (Fire and Blood, pg. 354).

And speaking of Daemon’s niece, let’s not forget he was able to win her affections and keep them through I would argue all of his life. She became enamoured of him while she was just a child, he managed to get into her smallclothes prior to her sweet sixteen (extensions to this incursion can be debated concerning which version, or which mixture of the versions people believe) and if you believe Septon Eustace - which given what happened a few years later makes the most sense - made her want to marry him. And let’s not forget he regained these affections even after she married Laenor (against her will) and had a “special friendship” with Harwin Strong and had three children, with the two getting reacquainted with each other quite soon after both his wife and Rhaenyra’s on paper husband, and dude who actually performed the duties of a husband, passed away, resulting in them marrying and having a baby - I will let yall decide which happened first. This was an incredibly bad call on Rhaenyra’s part since it did not help with her reputation and honestly whenever I see someone say she married him for “political reasons” I laugh until my face hurts. Sure, “political reasons”.

“Princess Rhaenyra was also enamoured of her uncle, for Daemon was ever attentive to her.” (Fire and Blood, pg. 355)

“Princess Rhaenyra was a different matter. Daemon spent long hours with her, enthralling her with tales of his journeys and battles. (...) Rhaenyra insisted she was in love with her uncle and pleaded with her father for leave to marry him.” (Fire and Blood, pg. 368)

“King, court, and commons were all outraged by the news. Neither Daemon’s wife nor Rhaenyra’s husband had been dead even half a year (...) Septon Eustace claims that Rhaenyra knew her father would never aprove of the match, so she wed in haste to make certain he could not prevent the marriage. Mushroom puts forward a different reason: the princess was once again with child and did not wish to birth a bastard.” (Fire and Blood, pg. 384)

Why am I bringing this up? Let’s compare Daemon for instance with someone like Joffrey, who I argued is a full black character. Could he win Sansa Stark’s affections? Yup. Did it last? Nope. Because dude was a total psycho who could not hide his nature for too long. Could Daemon keep Rhaenyra’s affections and inspire love? He could if we look at the text, just look at how Rhaenyra speaks about him during the Dance:

“My prince would ne’er lay with such a low creature.” (Fire and Blood, pg. 493)

“Only then shall my prince be freed.” (Fire and Blood, pg. 494)

Note that she does not refer to him as “the prince”, or “the prince consort”, or “Prince Daemon”. She calls him “my prince” twice and I don’t believe this was an accident.

Still about Rhaenyra, we see another core element of Daemon. He was loyal. Loyal to her and her cause, just as he had once been loyal to Viserys during the Great Council of 101. Whatever his reasons behind it, it remains that he stood by her side to the end. Even in his killing of Prince Jaehaerys, he did it as a revenge and the way it is written does imply that at least to a small extent, he did it for her.

“(...) whilst Daemon Targaryen, a hot-tempered and quarrelsome young man of twenty, had gathered his own band of swords in support of his brother Viserys.” (Fire and Blood, pg. 344)

“As the black council sat to consider how to strike back, a raven arrived from Harrenhal. “An eye for an eye, a son for a son.” Prince Daemon wrote, “Lucerys shall be avenged.”“ (Fire and Blood, pg. 422)

Even concerning Nettles, while he did not let her be killed as Rhaenyra commanded, he did not speak one word against his queen. In fact, was Daemon a completely selfish and self-serving character and he could have simply said “Well f_ck this b_tch”, get on top his dragon and go live somewhere far with Nettles. Instead, he sent her on his way and faced Aemond, likely knowing it would be his last battle.

Was he tired of living? People might argue so, and I do see merit in the argument, but there’s no clear evidence of it in text. Furthermore, what is clear is that while Aemond lived, Rhaenyra’s throne was in danger as they knew that the war would not be done until Aemond was gone. I am absolutely certain that Daemon also knew that had he left, he likely would be condemning his niece and son to death. No one but him was strong enough to be a threat against Aemond. Was there more behind it? We can argue so and I do think there was but facts remain he did not left Rhaenyra or her cause.

And still about Neetles we see another important side of Daemon. His mercy. For whatever his reasons might be, he helped a young girl escape an unjust death sentence. Was he a black character, do you think he would have cared about this chick he was banging/was his daughter - depending on the version you believe - for a second? He would just not give two f_cks. But he did.

I could go on and there’s more right at the top of my head such as his affections for Mysaria and for their unborn baby, but this is getting way too long and not even I can stand myself for such a prolonged period of time. But all in all, though Daemon remains an illusive character people love to hate or hate to love or sometimes both, I do stand by the fact that he’s neither black nor white, but grey. A man who did great things and terrible ones too, written by people who had no love for him, but through whom the Targaryen line continued. And friendly reminder that all his children (that were born alive) made it through the Dance and went on to further the lines of several houses ;)

So long live Daemon Targaryen, the Rogue Prince, and most important of all Daddy of our Lord and Saviour Baby Cheeks Aegon aka Aegon III!

#daemon targaryen #the rogue prince #the princess and the queen #fire and blood #popcornanswers

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