#sometimes it looks like he rewrites his own moral code to justify his actions

[diamond-rings-and-gutter-bones]

the thing about "saving people, hunting things" is that one of them thinks of the job as saving people. and the other thinks of it as hunting things. and which one is which, changes, but it's usually dean who saves people and sam who hunts things. which i found surprising when i realized it

[lokiarsene]

I know modern fandom folks--mostly young adults--go into moral panics about “problematic” characters, which is really just shorthand for characters who aren’t one dimensional mouthpieces that in no way contribute to the necessary drama of a story. And I think this is a really pointless way to look at and work with pieces of fiction, especially a game like Persona 5, whose main cast of “heroes” are intentionally made to be by default non lawful.

If you look at what they do removed from context, you have the following: a group of people invade the most personal, private spaces within the human consciousness in order to trigger a dramatic mental and psychological change in someone they’ve deemed a fitting target. They do this regularly in Mementos, and are basically little more than hired mental hitmen thanks to the Phan-site giving them suggestions of who to find next. If successful, the target suffers physical and mental distress, sometimes to the point of requiring hospitalization, and a complete emotional breakdown when forced to face up to the severity of their actions.

All of that is fucking terrifying!

Most of their targets were horrible fucking people so I waste no tears or sympathy on them. And while I as a person would totally support these methods if they were possible in real life, I also recognize that to study P5′s characters and analyze them, you have to set aside your personal moral code to look at what is the story’s moral code.

And the moral code is large swathes of gray.

Nobody in the main crew of Persona 5 is purely “innocent” (in the sense of puritanical fandom’s concept of innocence). None of them. By default the PT are lawless, and if you go by the D&D morality alignment (which isn’t about how moral your actions are from an outside perspective, but what the character’s personal morals and behavior are) they are chaotic good at best.

What the PT do is justified in the sense that corruption is so deeply entrenched in society that they can’t rely on adults or the justice system to bring about true justice. The ends (change of heart) justify their means (forcing a change of heart), and that’s borderline Machiavellian thinking. What stops them from being purely Machiavellian is the fact that the PT are also driven by empathy and a sense of morality. We see them struggle against vain things like self-interest while also working to uphold their original goal of bringing society’s corrupted adults to justice.

I really think this is one of the major things that people in the P5 fandom on here don’t get, especially if they have some weird hate fascination with Akechi. It’s absolutely hypocritical to point fingers at Akechi for what he did and yet completely overlook everything the game set up to remind you, the player, that the PT are doing risky, dangerous shit and forcing themselves into someone’s consciousness. Akechi spends half the fucking game talking about how questionable their methods are! Did you think that was just put in there for shits and giggles? There’s a reason why it gets under the PT’s skin--because it’s not far from the truth!

They are forcing a change in people who, yeah, shouldn’t be doing what they’re doing, but that doesn’t change the fact that the PT are the ones conducting a mental and moral breakdown that forces a confession. And you know, when I put it like that, you know what that sounds like? Ren getting beaten in the interrogation room, drugged, and forced to sign a confession.

The game repeatedly draws lines between what the PT does for “justice” and what they’re trying to change because they’re comparable methods with different motives. But they’re still the same (or similar) methods! We can talk for days about whether this is morally justified or not, but the fact still remains that the game is drawing these lines and it is foolish to overlook them.

That’s another reason why Sae’s final words to Ren are what they are--she asks them to leave reforming society in her (and adults’) hands now. That’s the end result of all the efforts in P5: you can’t and shouldn’t take the law into your own hands. If you want to see change happen, you need to be a part of it from within. You have to contribute to the change, instead of force it. I wonder how P5R will add on to that theme or even change it, since a big thing this time around seems to be wishes/dreams coming true, “stealing” those dreams, and whether dreaming itself is even a good thing if all it does is lead you to retreating from reality. Maybe that’ll be the third semester’s plot point?

Now. I mention.... all of that because one of the other things I think people miss is how Ren isn’t some pure uwu cinnamon roll, either. He was falsely accused and unjustly labeled a criminal, but he’s also the ringleader of a group of people who invade and force changes inside people’s subconsciousnesses. He constantly forms bonds and makes deals with people on the fringes of lawfulness themselves (with very few exceptions--which is weird to me, because those exceptions stand out as functionally pointless in a story like this). He’s the Trickster, the Wild Card, the core of the PT’s spirit of rebellion. Those words and descriptions aren’t just for show, y’all. Plus his Velvet Room is him locked up in prison! It reflects his view of himself as a criminal! So if Ren sees himself as a lawless outcast, why are there people in the P5 fandom who can’t see that themselves?

I think it would’ve been far more satisfying (and more overtly establish Ren as morally gray) if Ren remembered Shido from the beginning, and had his end result goal as finding a way to Shido to make him pay. Knowing Shido’s identity from the start removes that pointless “twist” at the end about him being bad, but it also sets up a really fucking strong rebellious motive for Ren from the start. Everything he does with the PT would be about taking apart Shido’s web of informants, sycophants, and puppets without that “you can see it coming from a mile away” ~twist~ of Shido being evil all along.

There really isn’t any point in messing with Ren’s memory--it doesn’t add anything to the story. If his damaged memory is a result of trauma, it’s never addressed or handled in any way. So just get rid of it and have Ren know all along who he wants to go after, he just doesn’t know how. Which would add so much drama and tension to the already dramatically satisfying Ren/Goro stuff the game gives us. Because Goro is nothing but honest about his goals: getting revenge on the adult who ruined his life. He might be hiding his other plans, but the main motive and his main focus isn’t hidden from the PT at all.

Now just imagine the conflict that Ren would have to go through when he realized not only was Goro trying to trick them, but they were both going after Shido all along. Aren’t enemies of your enemy your friend? They were both going after the same man who ruined their fucking lives--wouldn’t that make them allies (of a sort)? And as if that weren’t enough, all the time they spent together, all they shared and learned of each other--all that Goro confided in Ren--would make for an even more dramatic and painful conflict of trying to trick Goro before he can sell them out. Because it’s not like all those moments together were for nothing. They still happened, they still mattered, they still changed Ren because it was significant enough to be a Confidant link for Ren. But wouldn’t Ren, being Ren (empathetic, determined, stubbornly selfless to a fault), want to at least try to get Goro to change his mind? Talk to him? Listen to him and still offer that hand to help? Y’know, the thing he does in Shido’s Palace?

This could have happened earlier if Ren knows his target is Shido, deduces that Shido, or someone close to him, is Goro’s target too, and does a desperate attempt to appeal to him--to ~steal his heart~--before it’s too late. And hey, they can still do a twist in the Palace and have them pretend to be enemies, since the writers love twists instead of satisfying writing like they’re a Marvel movie.

I was thinking about all that this morning, and how I actually wish Ren had remembered Shido from the start and what that would do to the story and his relationship with Goro. I don’t really know why they mess with Ren’s memory and do that whole ~remember your bonds~ thing during the interrogation, since it doesn’t make sense. Especially since they had him do that later during the Yalda fight, where it makes more sense (and it’s something the previous games have done). They try to pass it off as Ren struggling to remember the truth, but then the whole first three acts of the game are him clearly remembering everything he did since he got to Shibuya, and telling it to Sae in the interrogation room. If they just removed his damaged memory entirely (both wrt Shido, and wrt the truth serum), I think the story would be far better off for it.

I’ve always said that this game really needed a second draft and a partial rewrite, so I’m hoping that’s what P5R ends up being.