#sysdiscourse tw

[lifeafterpsychiatry]

Sorry not sorry but being anti endo is violently and uncritically pro psych like what do you mean the only valid atypical experiences are exactly as dictated by the DSM and that anyone who claims to experience in this case identity compartmentalization outside that exact context are faking or wrong. What are you, a cop?

[lifeafterpsychiatry]

hello locely, im not gunna be on anon (not bc anyone would care who I am lol) I just wanted to say person to person im sorry I have to unfollow you for supporting "endo systems". they fill DID/OSDD spaces specifically to attack us (like specifically me as a DID system soooooooo many times over many years) and call us fake for our trauma that caused my DID. I just want to make it really clear that syscourse started with endos wanting to be quirky and spreading a TON of pure misinformation and false info (like blatantly false scientific "info") and attacking DID/OSDD systems so that they could claim the use of the word "system". systems retaliating in defence of our actual trauma is now seen as us being ablest? (not saying you said that kat!) I've followed you for so so so many years and ik you don't care and im just a rando but you've been a wonderful person to follow for so long im just personally saying goodbye and I wish you well but it's just too insanely painful to see support on my dash for people who basically claim to have PTSD without trauma since its literally only a traumagenic disorder (like DID/OSDD). I wish you genuinely well kat and that you find all the kind care and support you need and everyone that follows you does as well /gen

This is an anti psych blog, so if you think the DSM is an apolitical bible of objective facts and that any atypical experience not explicitly defined within it is inherently invalid and fake, this is absolutely not the place for you. Of course I don't support harassment or invasion of specifically traumagenic communities or whatever else you are talking about here as examples of why the "endos" are bad, but the main argument against endos still comes down to only accepting atypical experiences exactly as dictated in the DSM, which is not a position I can support or entertain. Of course there are genuinely shitty people on both sides of this discourse, but it's not like I haven't also seen traumagenic systems be horrible towards random "endos"

[lifeafterpsychiatry]

If it isn't a bother... what is the anti endo rethoric? Asking out of genuine curiosity. I've heard about endogenics systems and never understood what's the problem with them?

I don't think there's a problem with them, but the rhetoric I'm opposing is that there is only one possible real and valid way of experiencing identity compartmentalization (the experience of having several separate identities within one body) and that this is DID and OSDD as defined and diagnosed in the DSM-5. And while I do recognize that people with these disorders likely have specific experiences that don't apply to all experiences of plurality, and recognize their need for community around these specific traumagenic experiences of dissociation, I strongly oppose the idea in explicit anti-endo rhetoric that experiencing any degree of plurality in any other context for any other reason is fake and impossible, and that people who claim to are faking and appropriating the only possible "real" experience of being multiple and are bad people for doing so. I don't think all experiences of plurality are basically the same, but I don't think declaring some atypical experiences inherently invalid and fake because they aren't in the DSM-5 is progressive or okay behavior

[lifeafterpsychiatry]

Heeey fellow schizophrenic with random headmates! I think it's funny that it's like..

Cold take: schizophrenia means multiple personalities

Normal brain take: schizophrenia is not the same as DID and has nothing do to with multiple personalities

Galaxy brain take: schizophrenia is a disorder that profoundly changes the way a person sees themself and interacts with the world, and experiences of multiple selves or a multifaceted self is actually common within this community!

Thank you for saying it as it is!!! With the nuance this discussion definitely requires! 👏👏👏👏👏

- Erin

[lifeafterpsychiatry]

I'm gonna admit I went through a stint where the anti-endo argument was something I really held onto privately. Untilllll I realized I was holding onto it so hard BECAUSE I was terrified of those same people pointing at me, someone who also experiences psychosis, and trying to essentially take away something (my system) that I relied on to handle that, my trauma, and just life itself. I was afraid of my own trauma with psychosis.

Eventually I realized that it doesn't matter where it comes from. It really doesn't. The coping methods work, then they work, and that's what's most important. Can I deconstruct my whole system to the bare bones roots of structural dissociation? Yeah maybe, but I also don't care to anymore. We don't need to. It's also just more stressful to have to fit in into that box and obsess over making sure it stays there honestly. It's good when you can be wiggly and flexible. You heal more when you're fluid like that I feel.

So true. Like sure build community specifically around traumagenic dissociative disorders if you (general you) want to but these communities should be about educating, relating and coping and not about hating on endos like what the hell guys

[lifeafterpsychiatry]

No, I am more pro-self diagnosis due to my stance on endo systems. I am not saying you are not mentally ill, in fact, I urge “endo” systems to properly educate themselves on what systems are because they most often are either discrediting their own trauma and therefore believeing they couldn’t possibly have OSDD/DID or are experiencing something else that is not OSDD/DID and should be receiving support for their actual issue rather than something they do not have.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be anti endo. If you want to align me with anti self diagnosis individuals i’ll also assume you believe in harmful endo talking points like the cultural appropriative nature of tulpas and bs like system hopping.

You can’t just say the two are the same because you personally feel offended by it

Your arguments are not new to me, but the thing is that I am coming at both the anti self diagnosis crowd and the anti endo crowd from an explicitly anti psych perspective, which is why I don't care exactly why and how you are bootlicking the DSM and the system behind it, I just don't agree with it either way

[lifeafterpsychiatry]

I mean the amount of people who follow me while having "endos and supporters DNI" somewhere on their blog kinda amuses me. But hey, don't look at me, last time I looked YOU were the one doing the interacting

[lifeafterpsychiatry]

Just curious: you had a recent post about people who have “endos dni” on their blog following you. What does endos mean in this context? (I’ve only ever seen endo as in short for endometriosis.)

It's endo as in "endogenic system" in the context of the syscourse about who gets to validly identify as "plural/multiple/a system" (as in the experience of having several separate identities in one body). An endogenic system is someone who has such an experience outside the context of a dissociative disorder

[lifeafterpsychiatry]

why cant anyone just think about the fact they wanna share spaces....its not the exact same experience no of course not but theyre both types of systems.....also the person who said theyre "taking shit from actual traumatized people" (paraphrasing) is kinda shitty, like...you have no idea who is and isnt traumatized! people can still be heavily traumatized and be a system for reasons unrelated to osddid!!!! im sorry everyones being such assholes man. Sorry about all the pro-psych(?) people too

It's not like clinical DID and OSDD are in fact the only possible reactions to "real" trauma. The world isn't neat like that in real life

[lifeafterpsychiatry]

Sorry you're getting so many pro-psych asks. I really hate that people just take psychiatry/psychology as gospel and refuse to acknowledge just...how complicated the brain is and how it just does things one might not understand. It's okay to not understand things but you can't use that as a cudgel against others you don't like, that's not okay (not you specifically) endogenic systems r just ppls& with different experiences but they're still just beings, not things you can attack and belittle and invalidate

It's okay, I can handle it. Especially now that you've showed me kitty cat!

[lifeafterpsychiatry]

What the hell is endo

An endogenic system is someone who experiences identity compartmentalization/plurality (being several separate identities in one body) outside the clinical context of having a complex dissociative disorder (DID and OSDD) caused by trauma

[lifeafterpsychiatry]

Riddle me this: if endos are not "DID/OSDD without trauma," then why are they always demanding attention in DID/OSDD spaces? Either these experiences are different, and they shouldn't be taking space from heavily traumatized people, or someone is full of shit.

I don't support the ones who do that in the way you present here, but in my experience the majority of explictly endogenic system aren't actually trying to "invade DID spaces" in this manner. But I'm not opposed to traumagenic only communities at all, I'm just opposed to telling people that their experiences aren't real and valid because they aren't exactly like yours.

[lifeafterpsychiatry]

the icd-11 literally recognises the existence of non-osddid systems** so idk why people try and argue that its impossible. the thing with the anti-endo crowd is they think endo systems are claiming to have osddid without trauma, whereas endos are actually saying "hey im a system but i DONT have osddid"

** under dissociative identity disorder (6B64), header Boundary with Normality (Threshold): "The presence of two or more distinct personality states does not always indicate the presence of a mental disorder. In certain circumstances (e.g., as experienced by ‘mediums’ or other culturally accepted spiritual practitioners) the presence of multiple personality states is not experienced as aversive and is not associated with impairment in functioning. A diagnosis of Dissociative Identity Disorder should not be assigned in these cases."

^ with the above it obviously doesnt apply to every endo system, but i think its worth noting that even one kind of non-traumagenic system is acknowledged.

Actually I really don't care if it says that ind the ICD-11 as I don't think an atypical experience has to be defined and diagnosed by the institution of psychiatry to be real and valid and worth building community around but yeah

[lifeafterpsychiatry]

Sorry but most of us don't view endos as liars or fakers. A lot of us believe that they're simply in denial about their plurality. Personally I think believing that your plurality stems from something other than deep childhood abuse is a great way to avoid dealing with what you need to. I know it stopped us from properly dealing with it.

We consider ourselves endo-neutral. Not because we believe that plurality can exist outside of CDDs, but because we don't want to add hate to those who are clearly still in denial.

Well that's not better. I think it's equally inappropriate and disrespectful to think that you know more about any random strangers mental health or trauma history than they do themselves simply because their lived experience doesn't fit into YOUR worldview. You don't get to tell random people online that they must be "in denial" of severe trauma just because they claim to have experiences you don't personally agree with or believe in. Have you considered that maybe YOU'RE "in denial" about the variety and complexity possible within the endless variations of the human experience?

[lifeafterpsychiatry]

sorry if this is a weird ask, feel free to delete tbh.

but one of the positivity posts you reblogged comes from a blog that genuinely believes people can't form systems or identity compartmentalizations without trauma. they're 'anti endo', they genuinely think blogs like yours are fakeclaiming it in some form. i advise rbing from them bcs it promotes their heinous opinions about people.

Well, in that case you can be sure that this means that I do not follow them/know of their opinions. And I don't think it's fair OR realistic to expect people to check up on OPs opinions on everything before reblogging a single post of theirs, if the post itself isn't problematic.

[lifeafterpsychiatry]

Wait do you have did???

No. We don't have DID. We experience some identity compartmentalization in the context of Kats schizophrenia, which is uncommon but not impossible. So we're basically what's commonly referred to as an "endogenic system" even though we prefer to avoid that term

- Erin