#thats about all i should say without spoiling half the series and ending up somehow explaining the logistics of time travelling ball pits

[suddenlymicah]

"is it necrophilia if the corpse consents" is something i didnt expect to be texted to me at 12:30 am in the year or our lord 2023

[ouchmaster6000]

RE that zim/anpanman post - while Anpanman doesn't get as dark in tone, Baikinman regularly tries to kill people and has done things like tear pages out of an anthropomorphic book and make food-based characters spoil and rot. Not as gruesome as doing it to "real people" characters but that's not the point really; the idea behind it is still there, so Japanese kids are just very accustomed to an alien being that sadistic within the context of their series

First of all, I should point out I agree that Japanese kids are probably used to seeing more intense stuff on TV than american ones. Alot of shows like Yu-Gi-Oh, One Piece, Digimon and even Pokemon occasionally are known for having stuff edited out of the english dub. A pretty decent number of shonen series just flat out get marketed to an older audience in the states (stuff for kids in japan being aimed at middle schoolers here, stuff for teens being aimed at adults etc.)

Hell, I’m fairly certain Dragon Ball Z and Tenchi Muyo probably would have been marketed to adults in the US if it came out today too (Former for the violence, latter for the sexual stuff) and only got away with as much they did because they were on cable, and the idea that kids anime could appeal to adults simply hadn’t occurred to most western producers at that point.

I just…. Dont really think Anpanman is a good example of this? I also dont agree with the original poster’s Zim comparison. Granted, I suppose I probably should watch the show, but from everything I have seen of it, such as discussions on Bogleech’s website, it doesn’t seem that much edgier than standard kids show? Definitely a bit weirder and more violent than most preschool shows in the states, but overall, I doesn’t sound like Baikinman is much worse the your average kids cartoon villain.

I mean for starters, its pretty standard in kids media for killing and mutilating for non-human characters to be allowed, especially if said characters don’t have blood or flesh.

The obvious example is robots. Star Wars, Transformers, Doctor Who, Superman, Green Lantern, Teen Titans, Xiaolin Showdown, Age of Ultron,  - There are way too many shows, comics and movies to list that eithor aimed at kids or families, that have robots and cyborgs being torn apart in ways that would be pretty graphic if it happened to humans or animals.

Digimon is a related example - The only reason the franchise is allowed to have as much death as it does is because 99% of the fatalities happen to digital lifeforms that dissolve into pixels upon death.

Hell one of my favorite movies as a child was the original Toy Story, and all the scenes where Sid was mutilating and blowing up his toys would have gotten a hard R rating if he was doing it to people. I’ve heard a lot of people compare Sid to Dr. Frankenstein, but with toys, but at least Dr. Frankenstein used parts that were already dead (as opposed to tearing/cutting apart still living people) and put them together in a shape roughly resembling a human. Really, Sid’s toys are less Frankenstein and more human centipede.

I also remember Fosters Home for Imaginary friends having a similar reoccuring theme of “food friends” meeting a worse fate than Anpanman. This included half eaten, traumatized anthropomorphic food dreamed up by kids in stuck in fat camp, or a talking pizza dreamed up by the bully character and eaten and killed just seconds after being “born”

So, although obviously dark comedy, Baikinman doing those things isn’t really anything new for childrens media. Neither, is trying to kill someone, since a lot of cartoon villains have made serious attempts to kill people, they just never succeed.

But Zim successfully mutilating and removing the organs and body parts of human children is definitely not normal for a kids show.

Another issue I took with Revretch’s post was that she wasn’t just talking about Zim the character, she seemed to me to be claiming that “Invader Zim” the TV series wouldn’t be seen as edgy just because the main character is similar to Baikenman… but thats not really how it works? You can’t necessarily tell the tone of a show, just from the nature of its protagnist.

Like, by that logic, Courage the Cowardly Dog should be one of the most light hearted and kid friendly shows out there, but in actuality the world he inhabits is much, much darker, scarier and more surreal than Courage himself is.

Its true that, though the writers/network let Zim do much worse stuff on screen, there are plenty of other childrens cartoon characters whose personality is pretty similar to Zim, or whom are a lot creepier and more threatening. Mojo Jojo and HIM from the powerpuff girls are good examples of both of these, respectively. 

In fact, Powerpuff Girls, Xiaolin Showdown, Codename: Kids Next Door, Danny Phantom and plenty of other childrens cartoons all have both villains that are similar to Zim, and villains that are considerably more evil, creepy or serious than Zim ever was, but the tone of these shows, overall, is a relatively more optimistic one, where the main protagonists have more or less happy lives and good always triumphs over evil in the end.

Hell, even Gravity Falls, with its use of creepy horror imagery, occasional forays into adult humor, and having one of the most infamous big bads in childrens animation (and easily my favorite from the last 10 years) remains a fairly optimistic show at its core, about family and summer adventures.

This is not the case with Invader Zim, which is a show where humans as a species are portrayed as so comically stupid and mean spirited that, even if Zim somehow successfully killed or enslaved them all, it probably wouldn’t come across as a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

A show where the Irkens are depicted both commiting genocide, and electrocuting a disobedient slave on screen, and whose society is such a dystopia they are forced to udergo intense military training from birth and generally assigned roles for life based on genetics.

A show where the elementary skool is portrayed as a collection of all the absolute worst aspects of public school, both in terms of how its run, and how the kids treat each other, exaggerated to an absurd degree.

A show where a reoccurring joke character is a homeless man, who got taken advantage by a fast food chain, paid in free pizza and a room in the back of a resturant, became morbidly obese (Yes, this is Bloaty’s canon origin story) and was last seen in the original show sobbing uncontrollably because he hates his life.

Also, although this was obviously changed significantly in the comics and the Enter the Florpus special, in regards to what was portrayed in the original show, its really not difficult to make the argument Dib’s own dad and sister don’t give a shit whether or not he lives or dies.

Of course, this was all done for very dark laughs, as well as to create a setting that was just the right balance of humor and nihilism that the viewer could choose to either root for, laugh at or sympathize with either Zim or Dib without really worrying about the actual moral implications of either sides goals.

I’m not saying Zim is the edgiest show out there, comedic or otherwise. With stuff like Warhammer, Berserk, Venture Bros, Metalocalypse and all manner of gritty 90s anihero comics, Zims pretty light hearted and goofy in comparison.

But for childrens animation? Aside from some of the 90’s “grossout” cartoons like Ren & Stimpy and Cow & Chicken (which varied a lot in quality, imo) I can’t really think of any others that come close (Maaaaybe Billy & Mandy, but I think its too tonally inconsistant, with a lot of episodes being pretty standard cartoon slapstick.)

Wow, I sure did type a lot. Sorry about that. But Invader Zim is one of my all time favorite shows, and fictional villains one of my favorite topics, so I feel like I have a lot to say about them.

[tamersa]

I’m thinking  about W and OOO a lot lately (writing fics rewatching some parts etc) and I like OOO as a series more. Still I wanted to know why so I made this VS battle for my own amusement:

MAIN RIDER: Battle between Eiji And Shotaro: Its hard one, both are interesting, have good plot twists, their characterization so nicely made and they both likable. Yet it is Shotaro win here: so relatable, and his range of emotions is great to! The Thing is Eiji was made to be”dried up” and thats the reason why his mental and emotional behave is like it is. First round winner : W THE ONE NEAR MAIN RIDER (LOL): So now it is Ankh and Philip: This one is bit easier. Ankh has way more screen time and is it written so much better. They do have some similarities: both are mind power of the dynamic duo, have some issues with the previous families, crazy hair style and have doubts about their Rider ( or other half) intelligence. The thing is Eiji takes almost no shit form Ankh when he cross the line too much. The Birb man has to pay for his mistakes and sometime the price is huge. Philip on the other hand has his  tragic background but his mistakes are sugarcoated by his partner and not addressed at all. Because of that with more modest screen time his character is not as fleshed out as it could be. Mor rant on Ankh below hehehe Second round winner: OOO FEMALE CAST: In OOO we have: Hina, Chiyako and Satonaka, while W give us: Akiko, Wakana and Saeko. I like Hina I really do, but they didn't use her gimmick as good as they could. She should have throw more barrels or something! Also bit too passive sometimes? Chiyako is spot of supporting chara, funny warm energetic. Yes, good. Satonaka has her good points too: taking no shit from anyone and treating her work as well, work and not some life mission. But then we go to W side and oh boy, Akiko, my love! She is just the best  Rider lady I even saw! Funny, dorky, has more to do, has the slipper, is actually useful even if not have special powers. Well thats debatable too, that wand made from slippers did work lool. But yes even if she is mostly comic relief, because of her Xtreeme was possible! Also She found that devil's tail. And got that name in her dream. She has guts has flaws also but really. I love her to bits. Wakana is interesting too: spoiled princess who suddenly has responsibilities. And Saeko: the dark lady with twisted desires, helping her hated sister in the end. Undoubtedly this round has one Queen:

Third round winner: W SECONDARY RIDER Terui Ryu vs Date Akira and Gotou Shintaro. Well its two vs one and  it shows. Terui has that tragic background, and his bitterness fades away so he could be true city defender. Yet for me it was done bit clunky. There could be put more emotions and struggle into it. He looks cool in the red leather tho. Also he and Akiko are cute together. On the other hand Date and Gotou dynamic is so pure. Also Date is hilarious as hell! Both him and Ryu use Rider suit for other purpose than defend others at the beginning ( well money and revenge), but Date is somehow nicer since the beginning. And Gotous is cute guy who has his own little expansion ark. So yes, sorry red boy, those housbandos  win this one. Fourth round winner: OOO VILLAINS On one side we have Sonozaki's and X foundation, On the other well Greeeds. It looks like one side  have more villain types so it would  win but... Sonozaki family makes Gaia Memories to make super humans and then let only them to live on this planet because some Earth tears or something. Experiments, no one knows who will live. Ryubee  is just laughing old man wit terror, his older daughter is psycho maniac with bad taste for men, younger one is spoiled and doesn't know whats going on at all. It works somehow but not as smooth at it should. Some things are not explained enough some are over explained. And then suddenly some X foundation. Bit messy. For OOO we have Greeeds : incomplete beings who want to be complete but it is impossible so they will destroy everything  to try it anyway lool. They have  different approach to it and later have Dr Maki as weird hybridish psycho who wanted to end the world while is still beautiful. Sounds as messy as W but it is so much better. It is more consistent, we see the twists and dynamics between Greeeds, and the m Maki. I don't like him as a chara but he is made that way to don't like him: sociopath who killed his sister while still a kid, but have issues with her, creep who talks to a doll on his shoulder. He is both comic relief and terrifying at the same time! What a wonderful blend! Also his and Date dynamics are so hilarious I just couldn't stop laughing. Psychodelic af XDXD So because he is consistent in his doing, is a creep is funny dangerous and interesting even if you want to kick him in the balls. Fifth round winner: OOO PLOT Both have interesting stories, not too complicated on the surface, with some twists, with some plot holes and mistakes. OOO has however less of the plot holes ( most of them are from the past stuff like from 800 years ago), the story is more fluent, so fluent that it is hard to see chara development without going 10 episodes behind for a moment and the realization hits you), also there are none “new villain at the end!” no, we know who will be the  ultimate baddie and want to know how it goes. One of the main twists was Lost Ankh. It was interesting and heart breaking. In W main plot is Philip past, his connection to the Gaia Memories and Sonosakis. Plot twist can be predicted quite early but it is still fun. But because of little screen time for Philip and his actual development some moments feel weaker or bit rushed. Yet Shotaro reaction to those are top notch!Still, Eiji and Ankh dynamic story  flow etc is just better in OOO for me. Sixth round winner: OOO OPENING Music is important too and opening is the most characteristic piece of audio for most series. Here you can be biased and I will be. W is more pleasant to the ear, I like the video for it more too. And I mean both what you see in the series and official one. The vocal is more clean in W opening for me too. What to say more? Seventh round winner: W FAVORITE CHARACTER A war between half-boiled and angry birb. I love them both character wise. Are complicated have their flaws as good sides fleshed out, are interesting... but the birb... ah the birb! His story ark! His struggle,  his ambiguous state towards other up until the end. His mannerism (his bird like movements and way he eats lool, he drinks tea with soup spoon! XD), way of thinking and all the changes. They way he goes from treating Eiji as and accessory to fight to having him precious enough to help him fight Maki at costs own existence/life. And he is so relatable. Not for literal stuff ( I don't think any of you is greeed) but  in general: the feeling of not fitting into a group etc. Shotaro is very relatable to don't get me wrong, but his character development is not as deep as Ankh. Both have great  clothes yes! Eight round winner: OOO

SUIT AND MERCH ASCETICS As for looks of  suits of the Riders and gimmicks it will be short: I like  standard double more over TaToBa OOO, but I don't like Extreeme much but I love TaJaDor. Bike looks better in the W animal robots are cute here and here too. Second rider suit is good enough, but henshin gimmick is more interesting in OOO (the medals and  mixing them) So a draw! ENDING

OOO doesn't have that 49th episode and it shows. But with that we have 2 very different vibes endings and both are so good. OOO is bittersweet but gives hope, W I just... god I'm so happy for Shotaro, this soft man deserved the ending. And somehow Eiji deserved his too: you should talk to your birb more Eiji! And shipping aside W should have proper hug and  not that weird thing at the end. Both give satisfaction both are great and not disappoint! Another draw!! BONUS ROUND: BACKGROUND STORIES I could write about all support cast etc but those are equals and we don't need another draw. So I'll will do one more thing as a bonus: background of the charas. Especially our main Riders. In W we know a lot about Philip and what he did in the past yet some thing are presented in chaotic way, we are not sure about important things ( like if his family was dysfunctional before or after Philip's accident), but about Shotaro? Almost nothing. Just that he was bit deliquentish in high school (we are not even sure if it wasn't middle school lool) and that he was with boss  some time before Begins Night. And thats sad because Shotaro is developed in interesting way and his past should be show more to understand better why he was like that. On the other hand we know what we should about Eiji, what made him as he was, why he is living this way. It wasn't long exposition but good enough to understand his ways. For Ankh its bit more messy (because what we hear and what we see on the screen doesn't add up well) but still it is all understandable. Winner of eleventh round : OOO So in all OOO won but not by that much. W is still very good series and both deserve to be watched (and then cried over, and made 1245643 chapters and one shots and drawings to them GAH)