#the only other ones i've gotten to vote on were mikoto and kotoko and those were landslide votes so there was less to think about

[archivalofsins]

Hey now that some folks are out of bounds- "LET'S PARTY"!

Gunsli what do you mean? Remember when I said I haven't talked about what verdict I've personally wanted for Kotoko. That's because I couldn't care less, I like both options when it comes to the narrative of Milgram.

I am in no way condoning Kotoko's behavior I'm solely saying this from a narrative perspective.

Let me explain through exploring how I view the options~

So why would some want Kotoko Guilty?

Well the reason for that is simple she jumped some people's favorites and could do it again if voted Innocent.

Haruka and Mu are still sitting at Guilty. Their fans have a vested interest in not indulging Kotoko's mindset further. Secondarily she threatened to kill Mikoto. Thirdly she's shown through her second voice drama and song that she no longer believes in Es' judgment and is vying for the role of guard herself. Anyone who recognizes any of these things and are opposed to them happening will vote her guilty.

Meaning fans of Haruka, Mu, and Es all have a reason to be wary of Kotoko getting a second Innocent verdict.

Though in the words of Utena,

"But was that really such a good idea?"

Kotoko's trials are questioning the degree of separation necessary needed to excessively punish another. Because no one knew her victims when this started it was easier to forgive her behavior. I mean we only have one side of the story and she's so passionate against evil doers. Why would anyone not take her at face value.

So, what will be gained from saying I'm okay with you jumping strangers who I viewed as in the wrong without knowing a thing about them based solely on your word. Yet, I know the people here I know them well and I think some of them are nice. These people didn't deserve the way you treated them.

Though what makes the prisoners better than any of Kotoko's victims? Is it such a good idea to present that people only matter dependent on how well we know them? Is that any different from for example Shidou's mindset.

"Someone’s value cannot be the same as another."/"Should choose between superiority or inferiority."

Is there a sense of equality if one were to instead just,

"Hate evil as the evil that it is."

Or are both ways of thinking to binary and rigid to fully be acceptable. Are the audience hypocrites in finding Kotoko Innocent for killing killers we don't know and then finding her guilty for simply harming some killers that some of us feel like we know.

That's the question of her trials. Do people hate the sin or just the sinner? That's the question of Milgram overall. How much can another person judge someone. Over what ammount of time will one become more lenient or forgiving on someone.

And should one even be more lenient on another person just because of how long they've known them or how well their beliefs allign with their own?

In the same vein people would want Kotoko innocent for the same reasons she stated she dislikes. Not because they believed what she's doing is right or acceptable but just because they like her. She would be innocent for no reason other than being a killer we've gotten to know. Enforcing once again that she is no different from anyone else here. A thing that she has been shown to be upset about and afraid of through her second mv.

She'd just be innocnet because the majority would think they know her well enough. That's she's good deep down, she just made a mistake, was a little too extreme. Even though her actions were bad it doesn't mean she is. To be forgiven under those circumstances. Oh, she'd really hate that I'd imagine.

Simply because she wants to find others that understand her mindset and behavior people that view these things in the same and truly believe she's right. Finding her Innocent while still stating her actions were wrong in this case finding what she did forgivable wouldn't be enough. Now she could assume that everyone found her innocnet because they agreed with her so hard.

However she was innocent by a pretty large percent last time and her mv still shows her anxieties around her own innocence... So, I personally doubt that'd be the case.

So I feel like being innocent again would just strengthen her feelings of being treated like the rest. Especially considering even more people are innocent including Mikoto. It just doesn't seem like it would give her the feeling of drowing in the knowledge that she's right that she's stated to want from the jump.

So, I think in response she'd do exactly what she's doing now and what was implied she'd do from her first cover Anti Beat. Lash out in order to hide her own insecurity and take some control over the situation. The best way for her to do that is to put herself in Es' position to prove how above the others she really is.

Which that outcome would be pretty cool too actually.I would like to see how they'd follow through on the foreshadowing in Yonah if she were Innocent. Even if I do have a good idea on how they would.

Personally I just think she'd lash out even more just to prove to herself that she's better. Because she simply always feels inferior on some level. Like it's not difficult to tell that she doubts her own feelings and philosophy. Especially since she seems to need to be told she's right because she already feels she's wrong but she hates being told she's right. because she knows better than anyone how wrong she is.

So, she'd just keep stepping over the boundaries of others and put them in a position beneath her. The same thing we see her try to do with Es over the course of her second trial just to assert that she's doing what must be done. She's doing what others are too weak to do themselves all to stregthen her own feelings of vindication.

It's a lose/lose situation no matter how I look at it. That's what makes it so lovely. When nothing can be right that in turn means nothing can be wrong. These are just events that are happening att that point. The label of good and bad is completely up to the observer.

That's the best part of Milgram. It goes exactly where the audience is willing to take it.

Oh but Gunsli you wouldn't want Kotoko to run the prison and Es to just defer to her would you? That could be bad. You wouldn't want Mikoto to possibly die? You wouldn't want anything bad to happen to Haruka and Mu the only two guilty? It's not about what the fuck I or anyone else wants.

It's about the characters wills after the last bell tolls everything that happens next is up to the sort of people they naturally are.

Isn't that exhilirating. Isn't the most equisite kindness a story and author can give. The opportunity for the reader to enact their own will on the media and the media enact its will on the audience in kind?Isn't there something so miraculous about that. It's a thing of immeasurable beauty a once and life time experience. At the same time isn't it also the most disgutsting thing one could ever do to others and themselves.

Doesn't everyone want to see it- What lies at the end of Milgram? The culmination of all these choices all these clashing wills. Kotoko's trial is so engaging to me because it sets the stage for trial three perfectly. It's interesting because Innocent or Guilty the cog will still turn.

The worst part is the question what is judgment? What good does it do? What would Innocent serve? To be told you're right or acceptable just because someone assumes they know you and sees the good in you. That they know what you'd do and who you are deep down. It's soul crushing isn't it? It can be painful can't it? Even heartbreaking.

The hero some see are they real was the victim? If a person doesn't push what can they learn? What will one do when the things they don't yet know become things they can't unknow? Will they lash out in anger saying this wasn't what I thought it would be? Will they dig themselves in even deeper? Try to force that thing into being the shape they wanted it to be?

To me the fact is with this case Innocent and Guilry are quite frankly the same thing. If she's guilty she's no better than the others she judged and if she's innocent with the rest of them that still means she's no better than they are. She'll never be drowning in that feeling of being right unless everyone is guilty except her.

I find that mindset of Kotoko's that insecurity which ultimately stops her from accepting any kindness. So, very touching and human. Though it's ultimately going to fuck us all over no matter the outcome. It's tragic she was last in line. So tragic that she was put there-

Jackalope must be laughing about that placement choice just a bit. The same with Muu who wanted everyone innocent. Maybe if they just showed up a bit earlier the things they desired would have been possible.

Too bad, so tragic... I wonder just who put them there again.

Regardless of if one knows the outcome. Despite what one speculates. I wonder... Should ones morals change based on that sort of thing. Personally I think a person should do what they'd regret least. That's usually how I do things.

This isn't a post I spent days on or anything just some thoughts on the verdict outcomes for Kotoko specifically. Plus what I think the logic around it is. I personally think both choices lead to bad things for each prisoner not just Kotoko. So, this isn't the only trial like this but it was funny for it to be the one where this is most apparent to me.

I'm really interested in both options because I'm the sort that would like to have both if possible. It's so incredibly unfair that there's no way to see it all here.

[thinkin-bout-milgram]

More Haruka Verdict Thoughts

Sorry, I’m going to be insufferable for a while here while I’m trying to figure out my whole verdict thoughts.

T/W: mentions of suicide, serial killers

I’m still torn on the verdict. I thought I’d landed solidly on innocent, but I was talking to some people in youtube comments, and now I’m not so sure. 

On the one hand, I do believe that voting him innocent is the safest vote in terms of keeping people alive through the second trial. It’s more predictable, and it doesn’t risk harming his safe space or fragile mindset. 

However... I feel like if we vote him innocent here in the second round, we’ll be locking him into a guilty verdict for the third round. Even if I do forgive him emotionally, I don’t know that I could, in good conscience, clear him with an innocent verdict. Haruka shows, like, all the signs of a young serial killer, so I don’t think we can really release him into the wild without doing something about it first. Maybe a guilty verdict would be what he needs to correct his path.

But, if I’m right that he’s at risk of committing suicide if we give him a guilty verdict, then it doesn’t really matter, does it? I’d rather keep the door open for an innocent verdict than guarantee his death. In which case, I’d pick the safer option.

But it’s not a guarantee that we lose him if we vote him guilty. That’s just a theory. At the same time, we don’t know that it’s a guarantee that we can’t help fix his mindset if we vote him innocent. And, even if we vote him guilty, and even if he survives this round, we don’t know that we’ll be able to redeem him in the end. In that case, wouldn’t a guilty verdict be needless suffering?

Would Haruka even be able to succeed at a suicide attempt? We don’t know exactly how the restraining works. If he’s restrained enough that he couldn’t actually hurt himself, but he was still emotionally suicidal and had to sit through it, would that change my verdict, or would it just be cruel? 

I guess the big problem is, either way, we’re not going to know what would have happened on the other path. If we vote guilty and he commits suicide, we won’t even know what happens in the third trial. If we vote him innocent and his behavior and outlook opens and we have to vote him guilty in the end, we’ll never know if we could have changed the result by flipping his vote, if he could’ve been helped. Whatever happens, the result is going to haunt me if anything happens that feels like we got it wrong. And, assuming our results aren’t flawless, that’s going to happen.

Sorry for the rambling, this vote’s just making me think a lot.

-Venus