#there isn't even the excuse that 'fiction influences reality' or 'this will normalize problematic behavior'

[ljf613]

On Ships With Age Gaps

I've thought about writing a post like this for a long time, but I always decided against it because I don't feel the need to justify anything I say (or do, or enjoy, or ship, or write) to the good people of tumblr.

However, I do think that there are some people on here who, rather than being actively cruel or hateful towards certain shippers/writers, are just really confused or grossed out and don't understand why we people like these things and don't want to just assume that we're all degenerate freaks, and that maybe they might benefit from learning my story.

(Note that this is just my story. Other people may or may not have their own stories, which may or may not resemble mine-- the point is that these stories exist, and that just because you don't understand doesn't mean there isn't a reason.)

I was in middle school when I first realized that I had a (very normal) problem: I was attracted to guys, but boys my age were obnoxious. (Every heterosexual female reading this is nodding their head in sympathy.) Many of them made rude jokes, and said nasty things, and most of them were just generally immature and irresponsible and not-at-all crush-worthy.

Adult guys, on the other hand, were nice and sweet and smart and mature (*insert laughter here*). They knew how to be responsible, and how to treat girls right and take care of the people who mattered to them. They were ready to get married and settle down in a house with a white picket fence and 2.5 kids. (You get the idea. Give me a break, I was, like, eleven or twelve and most of the men in my life really were great guys in happy and stable marriages.)

So, like many other girls my age, I fantasized about attractive twenty-something-year-olds falling madly in love with me. (I can not hammer this home enough: this is perfectly normal behavior.)

But at the same time, I knew that this sort of relationship was obviously something I was not in any way ready for, and, in any case, I didn't actually know very many attractive single guys in this age range. (Because why would I?)

So, instead, like any normal kid, I gravitated toward stories I could live vicariously through. Stories about about girls my own age (or maybe a little older) who fell for guys who loved them back. Guys who were willing to wait for them. Or at the very least guys who treated them like equals, and, once they were old enough, might start seeing them in more of a romantic light.

The very first relationship like this that I remember falling for was Sesshomaru and Rin from Inuyasha.

(Actually, my first real adult/minor ship was probably Lux and Eric from Life Unexpected, but after that dumpster-fire of an ending, I didn't want to think about anything related to that show ever again.) (Although it did introduce me to One Tree Hill, which is still one of my favorite shows of all time, so I guess it did something right.) (And Nathan and Haley probably also fit the bill-- Nathan wasn't an adult, but he was mature and responsible and ready to settle down. TV really should bring back teen marriage plotlines instead of endless cycles of love triangles.)

I discovered anime in seventh grade, and Inuyasha was my second real anime. (In case you're wondering, Fairy Tail was my first.) I quickly fell in love with Rin (who was an example of what would become one of my favorite character archetypes), and her relationship with Sesshomaru fascinated me.

Here you had this demon who hated humans, only to be bewildered when one try to help him, leading him to use a part of his heritage that he'd been rejecting until now in order to save her. And then she just. Follows him. And he lets her? And he just spends the entire series treating her like an equal and letting her do literally whatever she wants?

(To those who read them as father and daughter: uh, if I saw a parent with this sort of laissez-faire approach to child-raising, I would be very concerned. He treats her like a traveling companion and constantly defers to her wishes. She gets kidnapped and he only comes to rescue her when he's sure that's what she wants? Very parental of him.)

And then when he's finally about to reach the goal he's been working towards this entire time, he gives it up the moment Rin gets hurt. ("Nothing was worth losing her?" ICONIQUE, nobody is doing it like him!) And then in the final battle, he fights alongside the same people he was trying to kill when we first met him. All because Rin has taught him that humans have worth, that weakness isn't a sin, that there are more important things than strength and hatred? Are you kidding me?

I've already gone into my love for this ship here, so I'm not going to repeat the whole thing, but I will say that I loved what we saw of them in the finale-- the two of them separated, so that Rin could grow up and decide what she wanted out of their relationship. Because he was willing to wait for whatever choice she decided to make.

This was a game changer for me. It was exactly what I hadn't realized I was looking for. I needed more. What followed was a love for various other wholesome bonds between protective/traumized men and the girls who taught them about love.

Naofumi and Raphtalia of Rising of the Shield Hero (talk about clueless guys-- he seriously managed to convince himself that he only saw her as daughter because he had no other frame of reference and had been so traumatized by the last girl he liked), Kyoko and Katsuya (dude was more than willing to wait for her and only stepped in when she needed him to be there for her? Find me another man this swoon-worthy) and Kureno and Arisa of Fruits Basket (I normally don't buy love-at-first-sight, but for these two cuties I'll suspend my disbelief), Zack and Rachel of Angels of Death (the age gap is the least problematic thing here), Mamoru and Haruka of Until Death Do Us Part (the man literally laughed the idea of their relationship off until he couldn't anymore. And then, again, he let her go and waited until she was ready), Satoru and Airi of Erased (the soulmatism!), Accelerator and Last Order of A Certain Magical Index (alright, fine, I've never been able to decide if I prefer these two to stay purely platonic or eventually fall in love, but whatever they have I adored), and many, many others.

But the thing here is that none of these relationships are the main focus of their respective series. I wasn't going out and actively looking for these ships, but when they showed up in the stories I loved I would certainly enjoy them. (Love stories were cute and all, but magic and adventure were way more interesting to middle-school me.)

It was only when I was in high school and I started getting more into romantic stories that began actively seeking out the sort of thing I was looking for. Seiji and Shiharu of Love So Life are still near and dear to my heart (my guy buys her a ring, tells her he'll never want anyone else, refuses to let her reciprocate, and doesn't go near her for almost six years to make sure that she doesn't choose him until she's really ready. KING), Mao and Hiro of House of the Sun will never stop being adorable (Taamo's drawing style is so stinkin' cute), The Start of Niina is as heartbreakingly lovely as ever (the gift and trauma of reincarnation!), and Faster Than a Kiss is a gem (another great guy who does his best to take care of the girl he loves but won't lay a hand on her until she's ready).

And it wasn't just age gap stories. Because the age gap wasn't the real point-- the point was mature guys who were ready to commit and smart girls who knew a good thing when they saw it. Which is why I also devoured stories about teens getting married (please bring these back, western media) and arranged marriages ("we may not have wanted this but we are going to make it work"). The World is Still Beautiful remains one of my favorite fantasy-romances, Absolute Peace Strategy is hilarious, I really need to reread Prince of Silk and Thorn, Dawn of the Arcana is fantastic, Taisho Maiden Fairytale is super-cute, etc. etc. (This is not an exhaustive list, btw-- feel free to DM me or drop an ask if you're looking for more in any of these genres.)

Once I discovered fandom, fanon, and shipping culture, it was a given that my love for these dynamics would cross over into media where such things weren't canon.

(And, for the nth time, all of this was perfectly normal and understandable behavior for a girl my age.)

These were stories and tropes I adored. But they were stories. Fiction. They were not reality. And even at the very earliest stages of this interest, I understood the difference.

When I was in seventh or eighth grade, there was an incident involving one of my female classmates and a twenty-something-year-old male student-teacher. I was not directly involved (I barely knew the girl) and I wasn't exactly asking for details (I've always prefered to stay out of real-world drama if I can), but middle school girls are loud and I have good ears, so I was pretty sure I got the gist. (Years later, I spoke with one of the other teachers who'd been involved with handling the aftermath, and she confirmed and added some more context.)

To simplify, the teacher in question had somehow gotten a hold of the girl's phone number and had been sending her texts that were not appropriate for a grown man to be sending to a thirteen year old girl. This made her highly uncomfortable, but she was too scared to say anything-- it wasn't as though there was anything explicit or overtly sexual (he told her how pretty she was, and how much he looked forward to seeing her every day, and I do not know or want to know what else)-- and she didn't want to look like she was make a big deal out of nothing. But when her friends found out, they immediately said "this is not okay," and marched her to the nearest female teacher to confess the whole thing. (Good for them!)

Again, I was not directly involved. I did not discuss the subject with any of my classmates, I was obviously not present when the school staff spoke with the guy, and I have no idea what exactly the school policy was for this sort of thing. All I saw from my end was a crying girl being comforted by her friends as they dragged her off, and within the next day or two we were told that this teacher would be ending his postion early (he'd been supposed to leave soon, regardless, as he was only a temp). I never saw him again.

And there was never a question in my mind that this man's behavior was deplorable, that this story should never have happened, and that this girl was a victim of a horrible injustice.

(I have a vivid recollection of being outraged when another teacher-- who happened to be related to him (probably how he'd gotten the job, I don't remember ever our school having had a student-teacher before or after)-- told us he was being forced to leave earlier than planned like we were supposed to be sad about it, and then insisted we make a good-bye card for him (while making snide comments under her breath about how some people needed to learn to keep their mouths shut). (I honestly don't remember whether or not I helped decorate the stupid thing, or what the girl did while this was happening.) I was not old enough or mature enough to fully realize that what this other teacher did was also hideously inappropriate and ought to have been reported as well, but I did know that it was nasty and underhanded and I didn't like it. (This was not the only time when this teacher behaved obnoxiously or passive-aggressively insulted a student for bringing a complaint to the school staff or doing something else she disliked (I was on the receiving end at least once or twice, but that's another story), and she did not return the next year. Good riddance.))

In any case, despite the fact that age gap stories (and even the occasional teacher-student romance) were something I liked seeing in media, I recognized the clear distinction between fiction and reality, and what was right and wrong. I didn't even need to think about it. Even at thirteen, when I didn't fully understand what was and wasn't appropriate behavior for a teacher, this was something I understood perfectly.

And to anyone reading this and saying, "alright, fine, so you liked age gap relationships as a kid because they let you vicariously live out your perfectly ordinary teenage fantasies, but you're not fifteen anymore. Isn't it time you moved on?":

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Y'all still read/watch the same stories you enjoyed as children-- that's why you're in these fandoms to begin with. If you can understand still loving those things as adults, it shouldn't be much of a leap to grasp me liking the same sort of fictional relationship dynamics I did in high school.

(Which isn't to say those are the only kind of ships I like. They never were. But I'll probably always have a soft spot for them.)

TL;DR: I initially got into age gap ships because they let preteen me fantasize about a hot older guy sweeping me off my feet. No, this did not prevent me from recognizing predatory behavior from real adults. No, I'm not letting go of the things I liked as a kid just because they make you uncomfortable.

[desperateground]

since we're doing anti discourse i guess: the antis ive seen on their own blogs (as opposed to other blogs askboxes) seem more concerned with media that portrays pedophilia in a positive light, as that very much can influence people into thinking it isn't THAT bad. If portrayed as the bad thing it is, they dont mind. Personally, do you see a difference in something that goes "heres an adult in love with a child, how sweet" as opposed to "heres an adult in love with a child, isnt that fucked up?"

under a cut cause this got long

I would love to be on the internet where you are, because it sounds a lot more reasonable than the one I live on, where stuff like this just makes me go ???

the thing is that fiction actually does influence people’s perceptions of reality, and we ought to care about that! if a person grows up watching movies where cops break the rules but it’s OK because they’re the good guys; or where stalkerish and manipulative behavior counts as “grand romantic gestures” that obligate a woman to date a man; or where Black people are depicted as uneducated and violent, of course that is going to color their opinions of the world.

and there are a lot of really good conversations being had about issues like that, and we absolutely need to have those conversations about responsible media creation and consumption. this power can be used for good as well as for evil. many people cite shows like Will & Grace as helping turn the tide of public opinion against seeing “homosexuality” as deviant and instead seeing gay people as “normal” and “lovable” and “relatable.” superman was a beloved enough All-American Hero that a storyline where he fights the KKK is credited with helping turn the KKK from a mainstream fraternity into something seen as a fringe hate group.

so i would agree that a giant wave of media with positive depictions of pedophilia would be concerning. 

however, we do not currently live in a world where “here’s an adult in love with a child, how sweet” is a major issue in media narratives such that people are absorbing the attitude that pedophilia is fine, cool, and good.

in fact, pedophilia is such a hated subject that we have a whole political movement in my country based on people calling anyone they dislike a “pedophile” and accusing them of all sorts of depraved shit involving children. most people who have sexual inclinations toward children are fully aware that these desires are at odds with society and that they will become pariahs if these desires were known to others.

(In fact, this level of ostracization can put people at a higher risk of offending, because they feel hopeless, have nowhere to turn for support, and figure if they’re going to be a pariah anyway, they may as well do the one thing they can think of that feels good. Forcing conversations about this to go completely underground means that you end up with awful groups like nambla dominating the conversation and convincing lost, lonely, frightened people to hop on board with their dangerous attitudes. if the only people safe to talk to about this stuff are people who will excuse, justify, encourage, and promote offenses against children, it makes sense that people would end up in their grip. You can read more here and here.)

much of the “media” that these “antis” are up in arms about is fan created content intended for a small population. the people creating content that riles up antis generally recognize that this is not mainstream content and use things like tags and content warnings to set it aside from other content. the notion that certain tropes in fanworks are going to bring about a massive cultural shift is a bizarre slippery-slope argument, and i think people's energy would be better focused on problems that are actually currently existing rather than a potential future where a few tags on ao3 have become dominant themes in network television and blockbuster movies. 

another issue here is that when an “anti” uses the term “pedophilia,” it’s completely unclear what they are actually referring to. a reasonable person would assume that they mean “a sexual relationship between an adult and a child,” but the definitions of “adult,” “child,” and “sexual relationship” have gotten so blurry within this discourse that it’s impossible to determine what’s being discussed. i’ve seen people claim that any relationship is inherently “pedophilic” if the characters have any sort of age gap, if there is any sort of power imbalance, if they both belong to the same “found family,” or even if one looks younger in appearance.

so when someone says “fictional narratives that depict pedophilia in a positive light,” they may actually be referring to “fictional narratives that depict any relationship I don’t like,” which is such a vague and meaningless statement that it becomes completely useless.

finally, your actual question is whether I personally see a difference between stories where the narrative perspective seems to critique the relationship vs stories where the narrative perspective romanticizes the relationship. i think your question is...hard to answer, because there is just too much there.

first off, it’s not always easy to tell whether a story is “vilifying” vs “glamorizing” something. people watch movies like fight club and take away very different thematic messages about whether the protagonist is someone to admire and emulate. if we say that depictions of abuse are only “good” or “allowed” if the narrative clearly portrays the abuse as “fucked up,” then we’re going to have to establish a High Court of AP English Teachers to determine exactly what narrative devices are employed and how, and that’s just...not...workable.

also, some people like the “fucked up”-ness of these stories; if you’re trying to say that something is bad if people “enjoy it” or “get off” on it or “indulge” in the darkness of the content, then it doesn’t matter if the story itself is wagging its finger at the naughty, naughty reader. the taboo, the erotic, and the deviant are, and have always been, wrapped up in each other. you can depict something as “bad” and yet still “fun;” it becomes a useless distinction when talking about sexual content. 

do i personally see a difference, when it comes to my own enjoyment? yeah, absolutely. i stopped watching game of thrones not because it included rape, but because the way the cinematography, musical score, etc. made it clear that the show was expecting me to feel a certain way about those images, and i didn’t appreciate that. i also didn’t appreciate the directorial decision to give more dignity to a dog’s death by cutting to black than to violence against women. i would probably not enjoy a book or movie that’s just about how awesome and fun it is to hurt people; though i did like clockwork orange - i found the narrator abhorrent, but interesting.

but i think trying to split hairs about what does and doesn’t count as Problematic or Allowable Content, or trying to tell people that what they create and/or consume is Bad and they are Bad for doing it, because its inclusion of dark themes is Doing It Wrong - it’s not helpful. it’s impossible to develop a standard for what is “doing it wrong vs doing it right” that makes any sense, and even if you did, enforcing it through campaigns of hatred and social vilification is not going to be effective.