#this is an actual problem in supposedly open community trans subreddits | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

love-it-or-its-free · 5 years ago

Text

@dyke-diva

[edited to update pastebin and make links clickable.]

First, just some more context about me: I am a 33 yr old lesbian, butch (in a nerd way) and quite androgynous/GNC.

Until a year or two ago, I was an ardent supporter of trans activism, as it went part and parcel with being a member of the LGBT "Community".

Literally, asking this same question to myself was a turning point for me. I knew I was supposed to hate and denounce anything TERF-related.... but one day I realized, I didn't know exactly what TERFs had supposedly done, that would warrant such seething hatred against them.

Like I said, I comprehend hating Nazis, because I have seen evidence of the unforgivable brutality of the Nazi regime and its supporters. I've taken history classes, read books and original sources, and watched documentaries about it.

Basically, I have seen enough evidence to understand the scope of Nazi evil, so it makes sense to me why some people go around saying "punch nazis." Personally, I'm not the type to punch anybody... and I question whether punching actually fixes the underlying evil... but based on what I know, I totally understand why nazis are so hated.

But why are terfs so viscerally hated that they are directly compared with a mass-genocidal regime? I want to know the truth. If the evidence is out there, I want to see it, to keep my views updated and accurate.

Now on to your response.

I do not believe that you should debate hate groups. I think that doing so will only help spread their hate and

I don't really believe in debating hate groups, either. But I also believe that having a closed mind is a victory for authoritarians of all stripes. I have no problem engaging with people who disagree with me, because I generally believe in having "strong opinions, weakly held" -- I am firm in my beliefs, but my mind is open to evaluating new evidence. If I deem the new evidence convincing enough, I may change my mind or update my views. I value intellectual rigor, so I want to keep my views accurate and up-to-date.

I am severely distressed about the number of terfs in wlw spaces and think that something should be done about it, it has gotten to the point where if it is not stated directly that they do not support transmisogyny that I will often feel paranoid about being in the space.

Honestly, I would love if you could PM me about these "wlw spaces" that are supposedly crawling with terfs. I feel like I'm reading this from a bizarro mirror dimension, thinking... WHAT wlw spaces? Is there really anything like this, outside of a handful of unpopular tumblr tags and a couple of small subreddits?

The only spaces I know of, especially IRL, are bending over backwards to be so "q***r friendly" that actual lesbians are being pushed out. One local activist in my city, started a public speech by claiming, "terfs are lesbians who..." and went on to drag lesbians for not being inclusive enough. Why only lesbians, I wondered??

Singling out and pressuring lesbians that way is not okay, in my opinion. Lesbians deserve to have spaces for lesbian (natal) women only. Lesbians are allowed to be repulsed by penises. None of that is hateful! Lesbians should not be pressured to sleep with anyone they aren't interested in. Unfortunately, I see that happening a lot these days. The "wlw spaces" I know of, offline and online, increasingly pressure lesbians in this way. Not cool.

Now, I can handle those pressures... but I'm really worried about younger lesbians. Being a lesbian is hard enough as it is! We have a right to exist, and to express our sexuality without added pressures.

and finally reason three, trans people who are afab have been seen to dismiss terfs actions and beliefs purely because terfs do not actively threaten their existence like they do amab trans people.

I'm not sure if I follow this part... it seems like you're saying that some FTMs ("trans people who are afab") do not feel threatened by so-called terfs, because the perception is that terfs are more threatening to "amab trans people"? Sorry if I misunderstood, but I would be interested to learn more about this phenomenon either way.

The person who sent this ask had lots of “Terf Safe” tagged posts on their blog and in their likes (though it seems their likes are now private), so I had blocked them, on the post that I made on my @la-joueuse-ultime blog that I quoted above they had asked why Terfs and Nazi’s are being compared, saying “I know about the reasons Nazis are bad, we can study history to see that evidence. But where is the evidence that terfs are comparably bad?” I had responded “@love-it-or-its-free it’s not that their comparably as bad, it’s that they’re bad. They are a hate group that has killed trans people and because of that they shouldn’t get a voice to spread their hate.” I then told them I planned to block them, I had done so and then they sent this ask.

Well, just to be clear, you were the first to interact with my post. It appears that you went looking in terf-friendly tags, found my post, and decided to interact with it. I'm happy to clarify the details of this, but I think your wording makes it sound like I sought you out, when it was actually the other way around. I posted mild terf-friendly content, you directly compared terfs to nazis. I think that's extreme.

I guess it's a good thing I hid my likes, too, because it sounds like you were ready to trawl for "punishable" content. I mean... who among us has not accidentally tapped the heart while on mobile or something? I hope you aren't really intending to police liked content like that.

Now to the actual ask, I believe the reason you can’t find Terfs that have killed trans people is that, well, you’re literally not looking,

I am quick to google anything that pops into my head, so rest assured, I would not pose this question to a tumblr rando unless I had actually attempted to answer it for myself. I'm asking to try and gather more info/evidence on top of what I have seen already.

or you think that they needed to have direct (by direct I mean they physically took part in) killing the trans person. You don’t need to be holding a knife to take part in someone’s death, you can encourage violence against the minority, you can bully and harass them until they take their own life, or you can fight against medical procedures that some of these people need to live. Terfs have done all of these.

Right... but I specifically asked how you can directly compare terfs to nazis. I agree that bullying, etc. is wrong. But I am asking for the evidence you used to make the direct comparison. You are shifting the goal posts here. I'm okay with that shift if you are... because I'm happy to provide evidence of trans activists doing things like sending death threats to terfs (or any woman who is deemed to have "terfy" views) which seems directly comparable to what you are claiming here.

It took a second search to find Terfs encouraging violence against trans women.

I found similarly scant search results... but like I said, I'm willing to evaluate new evidence when I see it.

This post on Reddit (I recommend being careful, tw for violence) is of a screenshot of a Terf stating that “It is a shame that people cannot do this in America” the post contained a picture of a man seemingly attacking a trans-woman for using the bathroom where she was most comfortable to do so. The posts were made on Spinster, a “woman-centric” social media platform that was made by M.K. Fain, a known terf.

So... I'm honestly surprised you would link to that particular subreddit as evidence of anything. But I'll charitably ignore the source for now. What I see, as far as content, is a screenshot of an anon comment on a website. You claim that the comment must be from a terf. Why? 1) screenshots can be photoshopped. 2) Anyone can sign up for an account on sites like that.

Sorry, but this isn't convincing evidence to me. Even if it's real, it's not a death threat, it's not an incitement to violence. It could be "real" in the sense that some troll signed up to the Spinster site just to troll "as a terf". It's just a shitty anon comment. Of course I object to the sentiment behind it (see anti-violence disclaimer to follow)... but I don't believe it stands up as evidence to support your claims.

(aside: I don't want to make this post any longer than it is, but I noticed some not-very-nice comments from that link and collected them in a pastebin here )

Finally, I researched the actual murder case in question. All eight people arrested in connection with the homicide are men... not terfs.

(I'll include this disclaimer here, though I'm bummed out that I feel the need to be pre-emptive/defensive about it:

I am anti-violence. I condemn violence of all kinds. (See above: I'm a softy, not the punching type) I especially condemn murder and homicide, and I do not endorse eye-for-an-eye justice. I want less pain and hatred in the world, for everybody, even folks who disagree with me.

I believe "the Golden Rule" is called Golden for a reason... it's Key! end disclaimer.)

Not only that but I found many articles directly denying violence against trans people, that I won’t link because they were made by terfs for terfs and I do not want to give them a platform. By denying the violence trans people face you are encouraging it, telling the people who enact the violence that they won’t be punished for it.

Yes, "denying violence" sounds like a bad or at least ignorant thing to do. But how is it remotely equivalent to committing violent acts? Unfortunately, if I can't see the evidence, I can neither refute nor accept it.

Trans people have a shockingly high suicide rate, there is no denying it. This article talks about a Terf that targeted a suicidal trans woman to harass, as well as provides a link to an article about Cathy Brennan, one of many who try to directly prevent trans people from seeking medical help.

I read this, but I couldn't figure out the series of events it's describing. I looked around on my own, and found that it seems to be a response to an ongoing feud between Dana Taylor (author of the piece) and at least one other person. For instance, I found multiple blog posts from the "other side" which described Dana Taylor's participation in harrassment and doxxing campagins. Here's one person on twitter, describing their experience with being targeted:

I just googled myself and found this from 5 years ago which said I was going to be watched. I don't think they watched me.

source thread

That's just one example I found. There were many similar tweets and comments about doxxing involving the author of the link you gave. So I'm open to reading more about these incidents, if you have more links. If something bad happened, I would like to understand better. But right now, this at best looks like just one side of a multi-sided internet slapfight.

If you just listened to trans people you would hear story after story of them being attacked by terfs if you just paid more attention you would see them encouraging violence against trans people, and if you just cared a tiny bit more, you’d realize that trans people are human too.

I am listening, or at least I'm trying to listen by asking good-faith questions while trying not to be attacked for it. Are you doing the same, keeping an ear out for stories of terfs being attacked, and listening to their stories?

How would it make you feel if I said, "if you just cared a tiny bit more, you'd realize that terfs are human too." ?

Anyway, that’s the post thank you for being patient.

Same here. I want you to know that I truly appreciate your thorough reply and the time you spent on it.

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