#this is why memories of ibrahim and hatice's suffering hurt HIM first and foremost

[mihrunnisasultans]

Have you ever thought what he felt that night when executioners woke him up and wrapped a rope around his neck? And you, what did you feel, brother? What did you feel, sleeping next to his room? (...)  Do you remember what you told me? Your pain will pass, you will forget. You will feel better. A lot of time passed, brother. But I couldn’t recover. And trust me you won’t either; you will slowly burn away just as I did. Hürrem won’t even have a grave. Just like Ibrahim.

Hatice + roasting Suleiman to his face (and to others)

Happy Birthday Plami! @mc-critical

[mc-critical]

I don't know if it was asked before, but what do you think about Valide and Beyhan Sultan? I know she is not her real daughter in history, but in the show she still called her daughter and in episode 102 Hatice said they have the same mother and father. Yet...I think Valide was a little more careless to her if you compare her love for Hatice. Show didn't give us many details about Beyhan and her past, but for a mother who got sick just after hearing her daughter got betrayed (Hatice-Ibrahim), her reaction and care for Beyhan after Beyhan's husband death seemed...low and weak to me. Maybe it's because she is older, or wasn't with her for years like Hatice, what do you think? :)

I never got such an ask before, don't worry. :)

Valide wasn't shown to be that close to her daughters other than Hatice, but this could be more because of their place of introduction - Şah and Fatma got introduced in the third and fourth seasons respectively and that was when Valide was dead, hence leaving us with no chance to flesh her relationship with them out. Still it's weird that they got no more than a passing mention by Valide and that was in her monologue in E58. In the case of Beyhan, I feel it has more to do with Beyhan's prominence in the story - she was (unfortunately) barely around and when she was around, she was usually around for emotional support to other characters, which also didn't truly allow a detailed development. Not to mention that Beyhan was usually supporting Hatice, her most fleshed out relationship which consisted of separate scenes between them and limited even further her interactions with her mother. The sisters so often seemed to be a family that's independent of Valide, even though they consider her a part of it as well, maybe because they can share stuff with each other that Hafsa would reprimand them for or simply not understand. It's like the dynastic family learns to rely on each other first and foremost, something both Şah and Hatice advocated for and Beyhan seemed to be on board with. No matter how strong her will to cut her family out was after the execution of her husband was, she didn't cut Hatice or Şah out, even when she appeared to resent Hatice as much as Hafsa from trying to distract her while SS was executing the punishment of her husband to the point of claiming she would understand only when SS executes Ibrahim, too.

Despite of any and all shortcomings, Beyhan was the second closest daughter to Hafsa. It's true that they didn't get much chance to interact - just like Şah and Fatma, Beyhan was far from the harem and had a very solid life for so long. They were miles apart and she could visit only so much, but still they were always happy to see each other. Beyhan also holds family in a high regard and is shown to be a very stable and mature character for the little screentime she had. It's probable Valide took Hatice in her wing because of the death and misery she experienced, in contrast to Beyhan's relatively calm life far away. There's clearly a strive for protection of the daughter that seemed to have experienced more sorrow and not have a marriage where she could take her own life into her hands. Sure, at first Valide thought that's the reason for her sorrow (and it was, along with her love for Ibrahim, rendered impossible by the customs in the harem in her eyes) and tried to marry her as soon as possible, but there's a hint of favoritism Beyhan is aware of and mentioned to Şah - that Hatice is Valide's favourite daughter, the one closest to her, the one who is inspired by her and the biggest witness of the dynastic virtues Valide had and wanted everyone else to follow. Hatice being alongside Valide the most out of every other daughter of hers would normally trigger another kind of sentiment, different than anything else she had with the others. Being together everyday and being a long distance away does make a difference. And since Valide knew Beyhan was fine (before E21), she had no reason or need to bond with her all the more or visit her that much all these years before E21 happened (Beyhan visited instead). The system encourages the dynastic sultanas to have a separate life outside of the castle and that's something that's considered normal both for Valide and Beyhan, so why would that be of worry? They still had a pretty decent connection for such circumstances. As seen in E14 and E21, Valide and Beyhan were pretty fine until that scene happened.

Beyhan confronting everyone after her husband's execution is a very important scene for her, because all of her familial ties seem to be breaking apart. She is shown to be a big emotional support to everyone else afterwards, but here, it's like no one fully understood what she went through. Similarly to the way they were trying to help Hatice get over Ibrahim in S03, here Beyhan appears to feel the same Hatice felt. They were trying the way they knew how, but they weren't helping. And what's worse, while with Hatice they were mostly saying that it would pass, with Beyhan they try to justify SS's decision. They're right, yes, because the audience knows that he was a continuous traitor, but Beyhan didn't and couldn't see it that way (at least not yet) and they didn't understand. Only Hatice tried to understand, but to Beyhan that all was just empty words, because Hatice was trying to empathize, but how could she empathize when she doesn't know the actual extent of that pain? Valide also didn't understand. And she couldn't understand. She wasn't truly willing to go beyond what had to be done and consolation while justifying the object of Beyhan's rage would in no way work at that moment. Beyhan was indeed disappointed by everyone then, which caused her to detach herself to all these alleged familial values, because that was almost fully destroyed. And while SS was the most culpable in this aspect and Beyhan was aware of that, Valide (and Hatice) also plays a part in this with her bad attempts to console. And Beyhan's actions are totally understandable.

Still, we should note that Valide didn't react in the same way she did when she found out about Ibrahim's affair, because the situations were inherently different. Ibrahim's infidelity seemed to be both a bigger and more personal issue than Ferhat's execution. Or actually, Ferhat's execution was a necessity regardless, in spite of Beyhan's feelings, something that needed to be done for "the order to be kept" after so many betrayals from the pasha, while with Ibrahim we have a situation with a whole cascade of consequences and many, too ruthless executions. It would not only hurt Hatice's feelings, but it would distort all the balance and piece of the dynasty in a massive way. We once again circle back to Beyhan being more stable as a character, we see that, but Valide also knows that and she may not have expected Beyhan to want to cut herself out from everyone like that. She expected her to understand the necessity of the execution anyway, but with Hatice she knew that wouldn't be possible because of all she suffered because of Ibrahim and the fragile state of her mind. Beyhan was different in that regard and even though they lived far from each other, I believe Valide knew that about her daughter. And we see that Beyhan did the right call in cutting herself out for a bit and took things far better than Hatice did when it came to her husband's death because of it.

We should hand it to Hafsa for still trying numerous times to stop Ferhat's execution before it happened. It showed that she was perfectly able to take and did take the feelings of her children into consideration, because she knew that would hurt Beyhan in some ways and used that as an argument in front of SS. This even made him wait and postpone the decision as much as he could. But really, Valide took account of Beyhan's feelings, but I feel her reaction went past her worst expectations. There is also the angle of Valide's motherhood and value of family being in conflict with her immense care for tradition. (both layers of her character were in accordance in Hatice's case.)

And ultimately, Beyhan realized that a punishment for her husband was in order (but exile, not execution!), reunited with Hatice, regretting her earlier words to her, and came to mourn Hafsa after all, but the wound still remained and I don't think she let it go completely. She didn't come in the harem (except for E84 when Hatice called Hürrem out for the entertainment), which could mean that there's a part of her that would never go back there because of the lingering memory. And that included both SS and Valide.

[mc-critical]

hey, welcome back! hope your exams and stuff went well, and that you're doing fine now.

i wanted to hear your opinion on nigar hatun. i remember seeing one post of yours in which you said that she wasn't a favourite of yours like you favoured other characters and honestly, same. i didn't really much understand the fascination with her. she was an interesting character, but i can't imagine having her as a favourite when there are so many more characters who are far more interesting. i wish they gave her an alternate arc. idk what it could be, i'd like to hear your opinion on it. one alternative ending i came up for her is that she was extremely angry at ibrahim for toying with her and hatice for keeping her sweet little esmanur from her so she joins hurrem to defeat them? which hurrem did try but it didn't really go anywhere and nigar was against hurrem for killing ibrahim which just was kinda frustrating. they literally give hurrem no ally in the harem [except mihrimah later on but mihri is overall varying in terms of power] so it would be good for her to have some support in the harem from people who actually hated her enemies like her. she had actual political support from iskender celebi, rustem, and ayaz pasha and all, sure, but she didn't have much support in the harem, like all powerful women of the harem were against her. nigar obviously wasn't powerful like a sultan but she was an old member of the harem, was respected and even though she kinda lost her dignity with the scandal, she could've regained it with hurrem's help. sumbul was there later on but he was just a very faithful servant and didn't really have any real motive to harm any of hurrem's enemies except for out of his loyalty whilst nigar could've cultivated a hatred for hatice and ibrahim. this is a basic plot but i would've kinda liked seeing it. there can be many more ways her character could've ended but it would be good seeing a woman who didn't bow to her feelings all the time. the sultanas couldn't really control their feelings when it came to love because they were princesses who were used to getting what they wanted most of the time but nigar was a servant who also suffered the hardships of slavery and it obviously would've made her tougher as a person so she could control her feelings better; idk, i feel like this is an aspect of women they could've explored [or if they did explore it, i don't remember it lol my memory lapses a lot so i don't remember the show 100%] anyway, would like to hear your thoughts on nigar. thank you. welcome back again <3

Thank you! <33 Yup, I'm fine and the exams went well. Happy Pride month to you, too! 🏳️‍🌈

Hehe, I wrote that post years ago and while Nigar still isn't one of my absolute favourite characters, I've warmed up to her quite a bit. And honestly, now with the wider experience in the fandom, I can say that she isn't all that loved as it looks like. I then was under the limited wrong impression that the BG Mamma forum was a metric of all the popular opinions and yes, they loved Nigar a lot and I was sometimes confused as to why, but really, that and the Russian fanbase are the only places I have encountered that appreciate her all that much. There are characters I find more interesting than her, that's for sure, but she has her charm and I'm firmly against people reducing her to "evil" or "manipulative" or "weak after she fell in love with Ibrahim", so forth.

The thing she sets her first impression with is her intelligence caused by her relatively high experience in the harem. The advice she gave to Hürrem opened the path to her whole goal (as she herself acknowledged in E41) and that makes for quite an impact for a more recurring character. Despite of this, I never viewed early Nigar as someone taking an open side, hence I didn't find her supposed betrayal to Hürrem surprising in the slightest: she is also trying to survive in this environment in any way she knows how and she can't really find a fully comfortable position, because she is well aware that everyone is thinking for their own gain in the end. Including her. So the only choice she has left is to direct herself to where the wind is blowing and get advantages for herself once she gets the chance. Because all the experience has taught her to repress her feelings (E10 to Hürrem: "In this castle you can't show weakness."), opt to be the more level-headed person and seek for the more pragmatic solutions.

And yet she is very sensitive and perceptive to people that are different than the others or that are in need and is willing to lend them her hand. She adviced and helped Hürrem because she found potential in her, because she wanted to see her succeed, but not through endangering her own self or other people in the process (she told Hürrem that her game had gone too far again in E41), but through negotiation, compromise and adaption, to know when to start and when to stop and be respectful to those above her, no matter how hard or limiting that may look in Hürrem's eyes. Hürrem had the tendency in viewing every sign of support that came to her as granted, she still had that naive part of innocence in her in S01 and early on was in a desparate need of someone to lean on and unconditionally follow her path, that's why when Nigar diverted from that path, it hurt and took her a while to start trusting her again. But I didn't see Nigar as all that attached to Hürrem as Hürrem herself thought she was, especially with how Nigar became stuck between two sultanas later in S01 and that rendered her lost and more insecure than usual.

That's also why I don't view her as a two-faced or hypocritical double-crosser. Because for the longest time, Nigar was the one character in the series before Rüstem appeared that was clearly thinking about her own benefit and survival first and foremost from the beginning when darting between the powerful people in the harem and was the one well aware that she simply can't cling to a single side in her own position. Positions aren't permanent and can always change in such circumstances, so why can't she take advantage of this? Because who cares as much about the feelings for a Kalfa they can still order around after all? She has faced disregard from Mahidevran, Hürrem, Ibrahim and even Hatice. It is pretty understandable that she's going to seek the best opportunity for herself.

That whole facade breaks when she falls in love with Ibrahim. During rewatch, I found myself to have a soft spot for this character deconstruction, especially in S02. I know that it came to pass because of her falling in love with a man that doesn't share the same feelings and there were moments where it looked like she overdid it, even in S02, but for me, the whole thing nicely added a new layer of depth, while still feeling true to Nigar's character. Her future relationship with Ibrahim had been building up back in S01, when Ibrahim (both inadvertently and not I fully believe) played a part in helping her solve the first internal conflict she had (that is the struggle between the two sultanas). Maybe this didn't mean that much to Ibrahim, maybe he was simply trying to be helpful, but it meant a lot to Nigar - that was probably the first time someone seemed to take her feelings into account and actually listen when she couldn't help, but crack under the pressure. So it is only natural that she would search for this source of comfort once again, being ready to face every risk in the process. When she is appointed to Hatice and Ibrahim's castle, when she's practically left alone with Ibrahim, she decides to take that chance, to taste the forbidden fruit. He gave her something she never received and due to her not allowing herself to show weakness and having to cave to everyone else's demands before that, every ounce of affection Ibrahim shows her, it means the world to her. Thus she begins to idealize what she has with him, to the point of denial and delusion, and centers her loyalty completely on him. But that loyalty never seems to falter.  She began to resent and/or hate everyone who could possibly stand in Ibrahim's way, something she wouldn't have ever done before. She keeps her level-headed self and intelligence (I don't think that this plot line reduced it in any way, not even when she was at her worst.) and she's ready to take any opportunity for herself (case in point: her marriage with Rüstem.), but now her softer sides and her wish for affection are showing all the more.

The problem I have with Nigar's character, writing-wise, and now that I think about it, the main subject of why I didn't get the deal with her back then (along with considering her S01 self bland.. somehow?), is her S03B characterization. While her falling in love with Ibrahim plot-line became an important part of S02 Nigar's storyline, I don't think it overshadowed or dominated over her other characteristics, making for a neat balance of traits and an interesting, nuanced character. In an attempt to keep her for longest time possible in the story, S03B flanderized her in every possible way and overexaggerated her biggest strengths and flaws until they became stale and unbelievable. Her love for Ibrahim read as а near obsession narratively and her opportunism coupled with her will for revenge, which put her into many repetitive intrigues. At one point I even felt she was reduced to a plot-device (the moment Şah Sultan appointed her as a spy) and she felt a little too purposeless and to have totally outstayed her welcome until her last moment in the series.

The root of this problem is again, that they just didn't know when to stop with Nigar. To be brutally honest, she had no long-term role left to play after Ibrahim's death and it was time for the writers to let her go and maintain her generally strong characterization. The ending I would've chosen for her is to simply have Matrakcı give her Esmanur's location and for her to live with her daughter in piece. I know that because of the tonal shift, the show seemed to be already inclined that everyone had to have a tragic ending of sorts, to underline the growing ruthlessness and cruelty of the themes, but I fully believe that Nigar was one of the only characters that were terribly forced through their tragic endings. She didn't need, nor deserve a tragic ending and I doubt it would've been such a problem for the half-season if she didn't get one. I find a happier ending to be perfectly fine for Nigar and I would've loved to see it, if only for a freshness in ideas for character endings. I loved her Esmanur storyline and to witness her finding happiness with her, the only solace she had left, would have been a great wrap up of her S03 plots and an amazing send-off to Nigar's character.

I appreciate the thought you have put into your ending for her and to be fair, your proposal would be much better than anything S03B gave us. It would nearly correspond with the revenge plot of hers they were going for and it would be something more original at the same time. Hürrem's principal lack of allies doesn't bother me as a fact alone, because all her enemies have understandable reasons to be against her, but what bothers me however, is when the writers try using it to dumb her enemies down and make them doom themselves through their own failings or outright use it to put forced (often soapy) conflicts to make the audience sympathize with Hürrem. Or to make everyone "mistitle" her (is that a word? probably not.) or disrespect her on purpose again for sympathy points (that go beyond the part of her motivation that wants to feel respected and does stuff out of fear not to fall under a less favorable position once again.), without changing the status-quo until say, S04.

It is so deliberate it becomes annoying and seeing something else for a change... honestly, gimme! While I personally prefer a happy ending for Nigar, I would live for Nigar and Hürrem to work together again, while keeping what's become her central motivation intact. It may seem a little OOC for Nigar to work for Hürrem by that point, because she's channeled her loss of the most precious people into rage on those that have taken them away, but it would be a decent shifting of gears and a reverence to her opportunism to work to eradicate those she hates for good, even if it means doing so with one of your bigger enemies. After all, after the mission is fulfilled, she could still work against Hürrem in some way, right?

[Tell me if I got what you meant wrongly, but there is an example of a dynasty sultana putting her love feelings behind and by that I mean Şah Sultan. Her love is in the past by the point she arrived in the castle and her love for Ibrahim is only used as a conflict between her and Hatice, which they get over relatively quick. Sisterly love and ambition are a much bigger priority of Şah's: she cared about Hatice past any resentment she may have harbored over the years and agreed to share her life with Lütfi for the advantage this may bring, even though she didn't love him at all. She divorced him only when he offended the pride of a woman and her own personal pride. Other than that, we indeed didn't have a female character in MC that puts her feelings behind in design as far as I recall, only ones that end up clinging to them completely like Nigar here or ones that let go of them eventually like Mahidevran. Characters that have this design by default are more present in MCK like Safiye, or Turhan, or especially Gülbahar, but as I've said many times, MCK is more ruthless, while MC is more about the personal feelings of the characters, hence every motivation they have is somehow tied to them.]