#to set back the timeline where Amane would become a teacher or something

[thelunarfairy]

The ideal present

I've been thinking about the development of time and what would be the ideal present, are we really following the true present? Are you confused?

You may remember that Tsuchigomori said that Amane's future is to become a teacher, but he changed his destiny, something that should have been impossible. If we are following Amane's impossible destiny, it means that we are not in his ideal present.

About the ideal present, what it suggests is that time is trying to reestablish itself. Amane's ideal future is to be a teacher, but the future was changed, that is, he is no longer ideal. We were seeing a bad future for Amane.

It was the present, the present set in a wrong branch in Amane's past. Tsukasa coming back is a paradox, and a temporal paradox is a flaw in time. That's why Kako said the problem is Tsukasa.

How could he come back if Nene only knows him if Amane becomes Hanako? I mean, for Hanako to meet Nene, he needs to have killed 12-year-old Tsukasa and then killed himself, but for Hanako to live with 12-year-old Tsukasa, little Tsukasa needs to come back, and that will only happen when Hanako falls in love with Nene.

Did you see the confusion? How could Nene find little Tsukasa without Amane turning into Hanako? And Amane can only transform into Hanako if little Tsukasa comes back.

Here's the glitch in timing. According to real physics, paradox is a glitch in time, and therefore it is considered impossible. So we can use the grandfather paradox as an example. In physics they say that the grandfather paradox is based on you trying to go back in time to kill your grandfather.

But if you do that, you won't be born, if you aren't born it's impossible for you to go back in time to kill your grandfather. There is only one possibility of this becoming real, if it is in a multiverse case.

You go back in time and kill your grandfather, but a new timeline is born, where you were not born and your grandfather was killed. If there is a paradox, then we are not in the multiverse theory.

So, in fiction we enter chaos theory, a paradox that leads to constant consecutive errors in time and that generate a catastrophic and destructive future.

The school's future is destruction, as we saw Mirai move forward in time, meaning Tsukasa returning is a mistake. Amane, Nene and Kou created this error in time, and it is trying to reestablish itself. Number one is the guardian of time, and having that title, his logic makes sense.

It turns out that Hanako is trying the impossible to keep Tsukasa by his side, even though fate says it's not possible. This explains why Tsukasa must also hate rules, destiny is a rule without exceptions, if you are destined for something, there is nothing you can do to change it, as Hanako himself said.

He knows the rules, but he wants to go over them, like he did with Nene too. As long as he insists, the paradox will continue and worse consequences will arise.

So we're following the wrong present, all because Tsukasa came back. The other future that could be ideal was for Amane to die and Tsukasa to stay alive. If Tsu had never met that creature, Amane would die of the disease.

But since Tsukasa was able to talk to that creature, it means that it was Tsukasa's destiny to sacrifice himself. Just use the same logic that Hanako applied to him and Nene. If Nene managed to summon him, it means she was close to death.

Just like Tsukasa, the only exception would be if he came from a special family, like the Minamotos. We don't know about this in their family, so this hypothesis should be kept aside for now.

Based on the information we have, Tsukasa was destined to die and live alone in the red house, his sacrifice is necessary for the flow of time to move towards the ideal future, for Amane to grow up alone and become a teacher.

Which means that we will probably now follow the twins' ideal present and how things should have happened from the beginning, that is, we will see an adult Amane being Nene's teacher?

[larathia]

TBHK Theory (as of 102)

That's right. Not an analysis of THIS chapter, per se, but an overarching theory of the manga as a whole that incorporates what we see in this chapter, because WHY NOT.

The TLDR of it all is - what if the whole thing's about love?

I'm still hashing this idea out, and I think it may still need a precipitating event - something that would have happened even without the Time Shenanigans, or could have happened without them. At present, I'm thinking that's the real 'curse of the red house' - that the house was trapped in paradox and that's why it drove everyone who tried to live there to madness and death, but …I'm hazy on that idea, it doesn't feel complete yet. Still, it does feel like that's the closest we have, at present, to a true divergence-point in the overall timeline.

Consider this: Tsuchigomori says that Amane was not supposed to die. He was supposed to live, and become a teacher. For that to be the case, Tsukasa's sacrifice has to have happened - and his return from the red house has to NOT have happened. In the red house, little Tsukasa says he "could have left at any time, he just felt like he probably shouldn't". So that's a 'point of choice' - if Tsukasa LEAVES the house, you get the main story loop. If he DOESN'T LEAVE, you get the timeline that Tsuchigomori had in his book.

And what makes him leave? He meets Nene. Who encounters the red house at a point where supernaturals are blocked from interacting with the main world. So it's possible, at least, that Nene encountering Tsukasa in that manner, at that point in time, was a 'time flex' that happened outside of all the others, the one that got the ball rolling.

Let me get back to this. Because it's behind all the rest of it. The question that makes me think this might all be a straight up tragic love story on both sides is - what if it WAS love that set it all in motion?

Like…this.

Imagine you're Amane. You're kind of an outsider. Kind of a nerd. You've got your twin brother, who despite being your twin is…really odd. And yet, he's popular where you're not. And you never meet anyone that would be your friend.

But there's…this ONE girl. This one, beautiful girl.

And you can never find her, but sometimes, just sometimes, she finds you. And it's never when you're at your best, whatever that might be. It's always when you're alone, afraid, Definitely Not Looking Sharp. And yet she's always concerned for you, always kind. And your brother seems to get it (well, you're twins, and he might be weird but he IS your twin so maybe he OUGHT to get it?) And you tell your brother about this girl. And you can't find her, but you'd like to, and he says he can help. So he says make this clock work. You've got to do it within this set time frame, or it's not going to do anything. But if you CAN make it work, you'll find that girl again.

So you do. You put the nerd brain to work and you make the clock go, and your brother's right - you meet the girl. And she loves you. She even tells you she loves you (or otherwise makes it clear - I mean this is the point in the loop we're AT, but the latest chapter makes it look like she may well do this.)

But then there's the price.

Firstly, you've fucked with a Wonder. Your life is going to turn short and brutal. (The Rumors of the First Wonder say that if you mess with the clock, the school's Time is yours to control - but if the Wonder catches you, they steal all the time you would have had.) But secondly, maybe…you don't mind. Maybe you forgive it. Because the reason that clock trick worked at all is that the girl who comes to you, that girl who loves you, ISN'T EVEN BORN YET. And the only way you're ever going to meet her, be with her, is if you throw everything you have now away forever. So you do it. You throw it all away. Including your life, your family's life, your brother's life. And it huuuuuuurts. Boy does it hurt.

And it's still not enough. Your brother warns you, there's still another step you have to take. You can't just be a 'ghost'. You have to be a 'supernatural'. And there's another price to pay for that. But you've already done so much. One more thing is just…one more thing.

So you become a supernatural…and the price turns out to be forgetting the reason why.

(Or: Why I Think Hanako's Being All Spacy Right Now - Poor Kid Might Just Be Starting To Remember.)

[1moremilgram-enjoyer]

Welcome back!!! It’s nice to see a post from you again :)

Something I’m very curious about: in your latest theory, you said “While I don’t think regret is necessary for forgiveness (I’m the “Local Amane Momose Apologist” for a reason), it is important for forgiveness that I can believe they won’t continue to do the same bad thing in the future, which is not the case with Kotoko.”

Do you believe that Amane wouldn’t kill someone again if released? If so, why?

Hey there! Nice to see you as well, I missed you all :D

Okay so the question:

CW Child abuse, cults and indoctrination, murder, psychological torment (Guilty verdict)

So, first, I want to say that the way I worded that was… not the greatest. I made it sound like there’s some sort of hard rules I go by to judge whether someone is forgivable or not, which is… obviously impossible. Forgiveness is a very subjective, inherently biased, complex thing, and trying to set any kind of guidelines for how it works is never going to go well.

With that stated, I would like to rephrase my original wording a bit to try to avoid further confusion. The new phrasing is:

“One of the more important things I take into consideration when deciding whether I can forgive someone for a bad deed or not, is whether or not I can reasonably believe they would not perform the same bad deed again without significant external pressure. Or at the very least, that they will attempt to not do it again”

(I added “without significant external pressure” because everyone is capable of doing really bad stuff out of desperation, so if I didn’t I wouldn’t be able to forgive anyone ever lol.

You’ll notice, though, “significant external pressure” is extremely vague and subjective, which is by design. What counts as “significant external pressure” in my eyes varies greatly depending on the severity of the action, the person who committed it, among other things)

Now it makes a bit more sense to apply it to Amane, who was clearly under significant external pressure both when she killed her mother, as she was being downright tortured, and when she tried to kill Es in her second VD, as she was suffering from the psychological torment of a Guilty verdict.

But that’s not really what you asked, it’s just something I wanted to clarify. You asked if I believe that Amane wouldn’t kill again if released, and quite frankly, I think it’s unlikely (though not outright impossible). Barring extremes, of course. You could argue she would kill her father if he starts doing the same things her mother did, which, fair, but I’m sorta expecting Amane to get sent off somewhere else (and hopefully way better) if she returns from Milgram. She did murder her mother, I would imagine she’s not going to be allowed to live with her father after that (maybe? idk).

The main reason why is that Amane is only shown as openly hostile when she’s under pretty extreme psychological stress. She’s usually pretty patient, even with the people who annoy her:

[Timelines 13/6/20]

Shidou: If everything about MILGRAM is true… why did a child like you have to become a murderer? Just imagining what sort of circumstances must have led to that, it makes me so sad…

Amane: *sigh*. Is that right. I don’t think I’m going to get along with you, Shidou-san. […] Please give me back my test. It seems you don’t have the concentration levels required to be my teacher. I’m going to get Kotoko-san to teach me instead.

Not to mention her first VD, where Es constantly annoys her in one way or another and Amane doesn’t react negatively until the end, where Es forcefully grabs her. Basically, Amane is pretty good at keeping a level head when things aren’t going her way, especially for her age.

And even after the Guilty verdict, she’s only hostile towards those who’ve slighted her personally. Amane wouldn’t kill someone just for breaking doctrine.

Let me use Fuuta as an example. He’s someone who very explicitly went again Amane’s doctrine, having received medical attention and thus having “ran away from God’s trials.” He also enjoys frivolous things like social media, which Amane’s cult might consider “vulgar,” breaking Gozake’s ordainment. Not to mention he’s a murderer (though it’s unclear how much Amane knows about his situation), which obviously goes against Riyone’s ordainment.

And yet, despite him breaking doctrine so blatantly, Amane still wants to help him.

(T2) Q12: What do you think of Kajiyama Fuuta?

Amane: He is lost and in pain. I should help him.

Of course she does, she wants everyone to be happy. That’s one of her main motivations as a character, it’s why she covered Positive Parade (I made a post about that)

[Magic]

I hope, I hope everyone can be happy and smile

Yes, her methods are misguided and harmful, they can cause a lot of damage if left unchecked. But ultimately, pretty much everything she does, she does it because she thinks it will make people happy, either in this life or the next.

However, generally speaking, murdering someone is seen as somewhat counterproductive to their happiness. Which means Amane isn’t very keen on it, usually. Things have to go really wrong for her to really consider it, and even then she’d only consider it if someone offends her personally.

A Guilty verdict counts as “things going really wrong,” of course, and both Shidou and Es have offended her in different situations. But even when she’s subjected to constant psychological torture, she still has some patience. Not much patience, mind you, but it’s there.

[Timelines 24/10/22]

Amane: Kirisaki Shidou. How long do you plan on continuing this foolish behaviour?

Shidou: I wonder what you might be referring to there. I’m just doing what I need to do. If anything, I’d be happy if you would lend me a hand.

Amane: I warned you. I can no longer turn a blind eye to this wickedness taking place right in front of us. You’re bringing ruin unto yourself. Do you understand?

She warns Shidou instead of attacking him outright, which isn’t great… but it’s not murder! Yet.

A similar thing happens with Es. In Of Blessedness and Punishment, Amane begins relatively calm, and doesn’t get violent until Es denies the concept that they’re talking to anyone but Amane, which she (they?) see as an insult.

[Of Blessedness and Punishment]

Amane: But we are generous. For now, let us make some time for a conversation with you. After all, our history is one that is built on dialogue.

Keep in mind, this is with the T1 Guilty.

So let me put it this way. Everyone has a certain limit of “shit they can take” before they decide to murder someone. Everyone, no exceptions. We’ve seen Amane reach that limit in her home life (perfectly understandable imo) and in Milgram. The question is: were she to be released, would Amane face anything bad enough for her to reach her limit again?

Call me an optimist, but seeing how patient she usually is, I like to believe there’s a solid chance she doesn’t. I’m not sure what Amane’s future outside of Milgram holds (provided she’s not already dead or anything like that), but as long as it’s better than the Hell Prison Guilty Verdict, I’d say there’s a solid chance she doesn’t kill anyone again. Especially since she’s still very young and could potentially become better at regulating her more murderous tendencies with age. Better than she already is anyways.

(I don’t have any way of knowing whether or not that would happen, I just see it as a reasonable assumption)

Again, I do think it’s possible she would murder again if things get pretty bad, but there’s really no way to know how bad things have to get before that happens. After all, again, anyone would murder if things get bad enough.

That’s why ultimately (and quite ironically), a lot of it comes down to how much faith you have in Amane, how much faith you have that she will get through life without murdering again. We simply have no way of knowing for sure whether or not she will. But I like to assume the best in people, especially children for obvious reasons (yes I’m pulling the child card again you can’t stop me), so for now I’m assuming she won’t kill again.

I don’t know if that was perfectly coherent, but I hope that answers the question regardless! Take care!