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TOYAH IN BACK ISSUE FANZINE 1980

Interview by D. Fischar, A. Brannan, C. Nightingale

DF: What made you decide to star a group after acting on stage and films? TOYAH: It’s something I’ve always wanted to do but never had the guts to actually get up and do it. I lived in Birmingham until I was eighteen and one night at a New Year's party I met some musicians and I said “look, I can write music, would you help me out? We started rehearsing for a year and the chance came to become professional so I did DF: Did the punk explosion play an important part in deciding to start a group? TOYAH: It was important to me because it was a form of recognition of my strange taste of clothes. I used to like wearing weird things. I started off about two years pre-Sex Pistols. I had pink hair and used to wear great big Andy Pandy outfits Punk came along and it sort of justified my taste because everyone thought I should be put away in a mental home. It sort of saved my life. It did help, it gave me a lot of encouragement. I used to doubt my own sanity. I came along and helped me DF: Did you attract a following straight away? TOYAH: More thanks to "Jubilee" (film) than our actual music. The band has always had a following and it’s always been a strong punk following but we don’t consider ourselves a punk band. When we started off I used to be really outrageous. I used to be permanently drunk and I wouldn’t be able to stand up or say anything I just used to stand up and fall over throughout the set and I slowly got myself together because I was just so nervous of singing. The following became a much stronger one. It was much more musically influenced rather than people just coming to see us out of interest

AB: You said you don’t call yourselves a punk band. Why not?

TOYAH: Because what is punk? I’ve never really known what is punk. A lot of bands, which call themselves punk, seem to be into just making a noise or a kind of music to move to, whereas we don't class ourselves as anything because we don’t really know what we’re aiming for yet. We don’t know the sort of music we categorise ourselves under so we like to remain free of categoratisation

We are thought of as heavy punk because I look like it. I’ve got the hair for it but it’s just out of personal taste. I hate black hair, which is my natural colour. If you’re going to dye it why not go the whole way

DF: How did you get the part in "Jubilee"?

TOYAH: I was at the National Theatre and at that time I was causing quite a stir because no one could understand what the fuck I was about. (The director) Derek Jarman happened to appear at the company and he wanted to make a punk movie to kill all other punk movies. I went to tea with him and he offered me the part. It was as simple as that

DF: In your interview with "Sounds" in ‘79 the band said they didn’t like that. Why not?

TOYAH: We signed to Safari in February last year and we had to get an album out and the band as yet wasn’t ready. We weren’t happy with the drummer and we weren’t happy with the bassist so we sacked them both. Due to contractual problems we had to borrow a bass player and a drummer and we weren’t really a band. We were not happy and to us the music sounded terrible

And me personally - I couldn’t sing, not as well as I can now. It was lack of experience. It was also overproduced. Too many ideas were coming from outside of the band. It wasn’t a band creation at all, really. This album we’ve just done, which will be out in May, is going to be called "Blue Meanings" and it's just fucking super against the quality of the A.P (Alternative Play, the EP "Sheep Farming In Barnet") because of the energy there

We’ve managed to put onto vinyl what we are like live rather than trying to be visual on vinyl. I mean there’s no one to look at

DF: Did Safari contact you or did you go to Safari?

TOYAH: Safari came to us after a review of a gig we did at the ICA (Institute of Contemporary Arts, London), which appeared in "Record Mirror". Safari flew over from Germany to see us at rehearsals and we signed that day

We didn’t want to go to a bigger company. We had offers from bigger companies like Virgin and we just didn’t want to go because we were such naive little bunch of kids at that time

DF: What do you think about having your voice compared with Siouxsie Sioux and Kate Bush?

TOYAH: I think it’s a load of shit. I mean my voice is nothing like theirs

DF: You said you hated hearing your own voice. Why?

TOYAH: Because when I sing I sound different. When I listened to it, it destroyed the illusion I had of myself. To me my voice sounds so much like a little girl and I always think of myself as being big and strong. It just breaks down what I think of myself

DF: I think your voice plays an important part in the music, like at the beginning of "Danced"

TOYAH: Oh, right. I mean I’m not just a vocalist stuck in a booth. Another thing about the A.P. is that my vocals are too overindulgent and they block certain aspects of the music. On this present album my voice is more restraint with the band rather than just a vocal stuck on top AB: You said you didn’t want to sign to Virgin. Do you believe in all this stuff about selling out?

TOYAH: Oh, no - I didn’t want to sign to Virgin then. We are going to be moving hopefully within a few years to a bigger record company because you can outgrow a small record company so easily and therefore you are blocking out your own career in other countries

AB: So you think it’s more a stage of growing?

TOYAH: Oh, yeah. If we went to Virgin I think they would have killed us completely. They would have been too heavy for us because we didn’t understand how dirty the record business could be. Virgin would have wiped us out completely. I don’t think Virgin would have been patient with us like Safari have been DF: Don’t you think they’ll make you change your music or style?

TOYAH: No, they can’t. Record companies aren’t allowed to do that now

DF: Will some … (?) big labels because they might be pressurised

TOYAH: Only if that band is not able to get a deal together. It’s a general myth. Record companies do like choosing your producer and the artist to do the cover but if you really objected to do it then you can say “no, I refuse to do that” and you can make the choice. It’s only bands who really don’t know what they want to do that get fiddled about with

DF: I know you admire David Bowie. Does his music influence yours?

TOYAH: He influences my imagination but I don’t go "Bowie did this so I’ll have a got at it". He is the one person that can trigger my imagination when I’m feeling really down and uninspired. David Bowie’s the main influence but I’m really into beat music. Not the reincarnation of Mod but the real beat, musically

DF: I heard somewhere that the album tells a story. Is this true? TOYAH: No, it doesn’t but the forthcoming album will do. The album from Germany was an even bigger embarrassment than the A.P because it is the A.P plus something like three other tracks. A lot of kids were buying the album thinking it’s going to be totally new material, which is a bit of an embarrassment to us

I mean OK, the album sold really well considering. It’s better quality than the A.P but it wasn’t advertised enough that it was the A.P and some tracks

DF: How come it was pressed in Germany?

TOYAH: Because Safari is a German based company and the album was purely for Germany but it was requested to come over as an import so to make it cheaper we had it moved over here so that it wouldn’t go up to £7 or something DF: What’s all this about Nostradamus on the back of the German LP?

TOYAH: It’s all related to WW3. Everything on the back of the album is just things that could possibly happen. It’s just things that make you think. It’s nothing that I'm preaching and saying will come true

DF: Has it got anything to do with the music?

TOYAH: No, it’s just an avid vision

DF: Where do you get your ideas for songs from? TOYAH: Very bad nightmares, usually. I have a fabulous time in my sleep, it’s really bizarre. It’s only a matter of remembering them. Usually a good argument starts off the best in me. It’s usually my life in general. If I have a bad day then I’ll write something really horrible

There’s a number on this new album called “She”, which I wrote when I had a really big fight with this old slag who I really hated. It’s the nastiest piece of music I could have done. I ? on because it was so perverse DF: In the "Sounds" interviews you contradict yourself. In the first interview you said that you help write the songs and in the second you said that you’re there just to sing and the band can do without you at rehearsals

TOYAH: I didn’t say that. The band said that and they’ve been severely talked to for saying that. The trouble with the band is that they are very paranoid that I get all the publicity and when they are included in interviews they just keep blowing it

I wrote “Victims Of The Riddle” and since then the band hasn’t forgiven me for how popular it has been and it’s just a band problem. The band said that, I didn’t. We have two rehearsals. A rehearsal where the band can jam for hours on end and a rehearsal where I come in and we get down to some self-controlled work

DF: How did you get the band together? Were you all friends? TOYAH: No, Joel Bogen (lead guitar) and me are the original members. We formed it about three and a half years ago and then we advertised for a keyboard player. That’s when Pete Bush came along. We completed the rhythm section when Steve Bray (drums) came along DF: Do you prefer singing in front of a live audience or acting in front of a camera? TOYAH: I like both. The reason why I do both is because I like them. I only do what I like doing and I’m not doing it for any other reason really. But I prefer singing to a live audience than in a studio

DF: In the "Sounds" interviews from ‘79 you said acting was your first love and the band was something you did just for fun

TOYAH: Yeah, that’s when we didn’t really have a band together. Now I can equally appreciate the band because it is a band now and not a bunch of arguing musicians - which we were then

DF: Do you still think that (about acting) after considering the band’s recent success? TOYAH: Acting is my first love because it’s so much easier for me. It’s more natural for me whereas in the band I really have to work my fucking guts out because I’m having to keep up with four other men who are so much stronger than me in a way

They’re physically stronger and they can really take more than me but I enjoy the challenge. It’s the challenges that keep me going. I love challenges

DF: When you’re on stage you’ve been described as provocative and blatantly sexist. Do you think this is necessary to sell records?

TOYAH: No. It’s because I’m not a paranoid feminist that has to go “ooh, you’re a man, I hate men so fuck off!” I hate feminists because a real feminist, when she sees a man, freaks out on the spot. That isn’t what it’s about. Women are too intelligent, women are the superior race and women do not have to be so paranoid at the presence of a man

On stage I just take the piss out of men's sexuality by showing them I have no inhibitions. If they want to grab my tit they can but they’ll get a good kick in the bollocks for it. So I just provoke them and teach them that sexuality is nothing. It’s all up there (points to her head) DF: You said you want to change that now because of people who come to see you just because of that TOYAH: Oh, it’s great. They shout “get your knickers off!” and just ignore them and let them get frustrated. I like to think I’ve ripped those people off because they’ve come to see me take my clothes off and they won’t (see that)

DF: Given the chance would you play in big places like Hammersmith Odeon, because most of the gigs are in small places?

TOYAH: We’re not that big. We’re not such a big band really. We haven’t had a top twenty hit, which is what really puts you in Hammersmith Odeon. I’ve never really thought about it. The thought of being that popular really does appeal to me. If we did play the Hammersmith Odeon I’d like to have a big budget. I’d want to put films on as well and really make it a big show

I’ve only ever seen one band at the Hammersmith Odeon, the Pat Travers Band and I just happened to be there at the right time. They were playing and I thought they were fucking awful. I just didn’t like the set-up because I was right at the back and you couldn’t see a thing. I prefer playing colleges to clubs

DF: Because of the atmosphere?

TOYAH: The audiences are so much better. The audience are all on one level and they can all see you because colleges have better facilities whereas in clubs you can jump and knock yourself out on the ceiling. Especially here in London DF: You said you like your stage show to be full of lights and effects. How come you didn’t do this on your recent tour? I saw you at the Harrow Tech (8.2.1980)

TOYAH: Do you know what happened at the Harrow Tech. They had two plug sockets and I spent £200 getting a generator for the night and it could only just power the PA. The lights at the front weren’t allowed because there weren't any bouncers to make sure the audience didn't steal them

We had lot of problems at Harrow and apart from all that I had gastroenteritis. I was running to be sick everywhere. It was a bad gig DF: How come your show at Harrow was so short because people were complaining at the end? TOYAH: It was cut short. I collapsed after that gig. I was in hospital so that I could do the Music Machine (in Camden the next day). I was very ill. We cut out about four numbers because I just couldn’t go on. I was in fucking agony AB: At the gigs you get some Mods because of "Quadrophenia" and you get a lot of skinheads who go round beating people up

TOYAH: I don't know why we get skinheads but we do. In London there’s a thing where you get a certain gang of skinheads who latch on to you (the band) to try to recruit people to the British Movement. It’s quite a big thing. They’ll go round using bands to recruit people. There’s nothing you can do about it because they’re so fucking good at it. It’s a real drag

DF: At the end of the Harrow gig all the black people were getting beaten up. How do you feel about violence at your gigs?

TOYAH: I can’t stand it but you can’t do anything about it. Especially us because we're not a big band. If I had had heavies (bodyguards) - we normally do - then they would have been stopping it. I do fucking hate it

I’d preach about it on stage if we saw it happening. We’re not a political band and we’re not going to get up there before any trouble has started and start preaching that it shouldn’t happen. That’s putting it into people's minds

CN: Did you enjoy making "Quadrophenia"?

TOYAH: No. I hated it but I got this feeling of having to do it. It was another challenge for me. It was the first time I worked with people of my own age. I was physically fucking exhausted throughout the whole thing because we’d been up at five and for doing a lot of riot scenes in Brighton. We’d have to run on average ten miles a day to shoot those particular scenes

We were ordered to run across the street and there was no one blocking the cars. A few people got run over and trampled by horses. I did enjoy it but at the same time it was fucking agony. It was at a time when the Mod movement hadn’t started off, which made it so much nicer and so much better because it wasn’t cashing in on a fashion. It was creating something that happened, like creating history rather than saying “oh look, Mods. Let’s cash in on it” sort of thing, which is what it turned out to be

CN: How did you get the part in it?

TOYAH: Thanks to "Jubilee". The director Franc Roddam saw "Jubilee" the night before he had a casting session and he asked me to to do it CN: Did you find after "Shoestring" (TV series, Toyah played a singer called "Toola" in an episode called "Find The Lady" that aired 2.12.1979) that your success was boosted?

TOYAH: Oh yeah, it was really incredible because I didn’t think anybody would watch it because of the Gala performance (Royal Variety Performance) on the other side. Instant success came for the band more than anything else

The audience capacity just tripled. The audience liked us before we went on and we had to prove ourselves not realising how interested the audience was in us because of "Shoestring"

CN: Did you enjoy doing it because it was a mixture of singing and acting?

TOYAH: Oh yeah, it was fab being able to combine the two because it’s so rare being able to do it. I really enjoyed doing it. Our bass player had pneumonia so we had to have a stand-in bass player

DF: You do remember the songs you played in "Shoestring"? TOYAH: We started of with “Neon Womb”, then “Waiting” and it ended up with “Danced” DF: Do you play a big part in the BBC production of "Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde"?(1980)(Toyah played a servant girl called "Janet", above with David Hemmings as "Dr Jekyll") TOYAH: It’s not a massive part at all. It’s about the same as "Quadrophenia" but more important

AB: Would you like to make a film with the band? TOYAH: Yes, we are going to (do that) in September. It was a film that was scheduled to be made in America and has now been brought over here. I’ve been offered the lead part in it I’ll actually be doing all the music to it with a producer called Steve James, who has done the A.P. and the album which is about to come out and the band will be appearing in it. They might even get acting parts DF: What’s the film going to be about? TOYAH: The film is not supposed to be a musical, it’s a psychopathic murder thriller in which there’s a sort of rapist going round and it turns out to be me. It’s a really fucking good horror story and that’s why we’re doing it. The music just happens to be in it. But I haven’t signed anything yet! It might all fall through! DF: Will you be putting new songs into it? TOYAH: Totally new. We won’t use any of the old stuff. When we re-release singles I hate to release singles from the album and the B-side will be something totally new. So for the film we’ll be doing totally new stuff, which you’ll be able to get separately as a single track DF: How did you get on to the Old Grey Whistle Test? (Aired 4.3.1980) TOYAH: That was thanks to the album “Sheep Farming In Barnet”. You have to have an album to be on that and then you’re invited to it DF: What did you think of your performance on it? TOYAH: Awful. I think it was bad. My voice was terrible on it and also we had the greatest bad luck to do it in Glasgow. It was the second ever Whistle Test done in Glasgow and you got all the Glaswegians going “what do we have here? What knob do we twiddle?” They just didn’t know what to do. And the lighting - we were saying "no, take it down. Let’s have moving lighting and coloured lighting" so it was an incredible battle against these Glaswegians but it was good fun

DF: Do you think being a woman had hindered your success in any way? TOYAH: Well, put it this way if I could start all over again I would come back as man. I’d really prefer it because I hate people saying “oh, you’re a woman” and sitting back and waiting for you to fail

DF: You are obviously succeeding so aren’t you triumphing over them?

TOYAH: I’m triumphing over them but I’d still like to be a man. I always think of myself as a man and when people grab me around the tit I think "oh, God! I’m a woman". That’s how I am on stage - ignoring my sexuality DF: What’s all this about a death wish?

TOYAH: I’ve got this death wish. I like teasing Dr Death and getting away with it. Put me in a car and I’ll crash it and if I survive I survive but if I die it doesn't matter because I have to go sometime anyway. It’s that sort of attitude. I like daring myself and if I fail I’m determined to do it again the next day to succeed

CN: You you dare yourself in the record business?

TOYAH: Oh, totally. They way I keep progressing is by dare that I don’t think I’ll achieve and it’s because of the fact that I’m so frightened of falling I manage to do it and I like that. It’s the permanent adrenaline that keeps you going. You don’t need drugs

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BBC THREE COUNTIES RADIO WITH BABS MICHEL 24.6.2023

BABS: Have you thought about going to see Milton Keynes International Festival? If you haven't, I'm going to give you the best reason that you need to go. I have to be still, my 11 year old self, because the first time I saw this absolute queen on Top Of The Pops it just blew my mind. She was singing “It’s A Mystery”. It was 1981, I think, it was miss Toyah Willcox! Welcome to the show, Toyah! TOYAH: Thank you so much. It was 1981. I remember it well, I think it was March or February BABS: When I was watching the television, but just couldn't get over your whole look, your image, your voice, the power in it. It was like nothing else and it was just liberating for a little 10 year old girl watching. "I want to be her. If I can be anything can I be her, please?" What was it like for you? TOYAH: It was fabulous for me. Going back to 1981 it was unheard of for a female to have brightly coloured hair. It was unheard of to have that absolutely independent image. So when I appeared on the scene on Tops Of The Pops, it had an a groundbreaking effect. Overnight I suddenly was the biggest name in Europe. I just didn't expect it. It changed my life forever That one appearance on Top Of The Pops meant I couldn't pop down to the newsagents anymore. When I was being driven down High Streets doing radio tours, every window on the High Streets all over the UK had a poster of me, which was extraordinary BABS: Oh, my goodness. I mean the fact that you have sustained for all of this time, Toyah, being at the top of your game. If people don't realise I want to just play them a little bit of the Isle of Wight Festival last weekend. Just have a listen to this at home Plays of clip of Toyah and Robert performing “Rebel Yell” 18.6.2023. Watch it HERE

BABS: Oh, miss Toyah! You have them in the palm of your hand! (Toyah laughs) I watched it and I was just like oh, my God! How is she still so brilliant at this?!

TOYAH: (laughs) I just loved the Isle of Wight. It was extraordinary. It was really one of the highlights of the year but we're going to have a highlight at Milton Keynes on the 28th of July. We're going to make sure in that beautiful The Stables Spiegeltent that we deliver exactly the same performance for that audience BABS: I think if people haven't seen you, they've got to come. It's very reasonably priced, £38 mark, which for festivals really good value, especially because you're going to be there. And I've got to ask is Robert playing as well, your husband? TOYAH: This is a "Toyah and Robert Show" BABS: Aaah! OK. If people have not seen you and Robert doing “Sunday Lunch” ... it's the best thing ever. Can I say my boyfriend particularly likes you in the gold leaf thing (below) (they both laugh) That was one of his highlights. I want to know how hard that was to do? Toyah has basically covered her top part in just gold leaf. How it's staying on ... I don't even know! TOYAH: I'm very good with gold leaf. I do a lot of crafting and I do quite a bit of artwork where I use gold leaf so it's not that hard to keep on. A bit of olive oil and gold leaf does the trick (they both laugh) BABS: Some of the comments on your “Sunday Lunch” channel are just the best. Some of the men comment on there how lucky they think Robert is … They're amazing those comments and you look amazing! Absolutely amazing! TOYAH: You're very kind. I turned 65 this year BABS: No! TOYAH: I’m just starting to feel ... hmm ... it’s showing now BABS: (laughs) What?! TOYAH: I made the most of lockdown and did these really wacky films while I could (laughs) “Sunday Lunch” has really taken off globally. It’s huge and it's had on YouTube alone over 77 million hits. I think totaling up with Facebook and Tik Tok it goes up to 111 million. It's a very large identity now. We've always presented fun. The idea is that every year is the best year of your life Robert and I, as a team, really want to do is say that life is a journey and it's a very positive journey. Every year we have is an honour and we try to make it the best year of our lives. My husband is 77, we've both got aches and pains, but we're loving what we do. We love music and we just don't see why we should be any different to who and what we were in the punk movement (they both laugh)

BABS: That's what I love about it. It's so unapologetically fabulous. It's in your face. It's sexy. It's funny. Just the two of you together. Here's the most brilliant straight man to you, isn’t he? TOYAH: He's stunning. He's a very clever straight man because he steals the scene every time. His little face when I get up to things (Babs is cracking up laughing) I think he's one of the cutest human beings in the world Sometimes he's just looking at me disapprovingly, which just makes him even more lovable. Other times he's afraid or he's laughing his head off. He just cannot stop being the cutest man in the world

BABS: Oh, this makes me so happy! You're saying you're giving it the bird (the middle finger) to what people think you should be like, at whatever age. You're saying actually, no, this is who we are. We're going to do this for as long as we can and we do not care. And the numbers don't lie, do they? Because you've really connected with people TOYAH: I think a lot of people just wanted to see this. I know so many people of my age personally. We don't feel our age and we're not ready to just stop because of our age. So we're challenging the perception of age If anyone doesn't know who my husband Robert Fripp is he was the guitarist on David Bowie's “Heroes”. He's worked with Brian Eno. He's one of the world's top guitarists. He's produced Peter Gabriel. He worked with Blondie, Talking Heads. He's just worked with everyone in the world and is hugely respected What we're doing on the "Toyah and Robert Show" is bringing classic, timeless rock into the auditorium. The whole idea is that this is classic rock - the way Beethoven, Mozart, Chekhov did. They're all classics, they don't age, they remain in their space eternally. Tthis is what this show is about BABS: There's a little bit of noise about what is this show going be like? Fripp and Willcox. It’s going to have a kind of meatiness about it. When I watched you on the Isle of Wight clip I just went yeah, 100% I'm going to Milton Keynes to watch that! Absolutely! TOYAH: (laughs) It's a rock show. We call it a "Rock Party". The whole idea is we really want people to feel free to dance, to join in or just listen. We want the audience to identify with the energy and the music that we're presenting. I's a large band. It's three guitarists, including Robert and each guitarist is a world class guitarist so it is a rock show BABS: Wow! What's not to love? You've got all of that and then you've got you. What other songs are you going to be covering? You’re going to obviously do some of your own songs?

TOYAH: Yes. We can obviously cherry-pick because there is 50 years of brilliant rock and roll out there. We take people on a journey. We start with quite light-hearted songs like “Thunder In The Mountains”, which is a Toyah song. We do “Echo Beach”, which I put back in the charts in 1985 at n:o 21. We do Blondie, but we also do Black Sabbath and Metallica, Led Zeppelin, Marc Almond So we really mix it up. What we've found is the way we placed the songs - the audience go crazy because we go from “It's A Mystery” into Black Sabbath. It's the most beautiful juxtaposition. It works and the audience just get it BABS: I think it's going to be an amazing show. I must ask, just in general, when you're not doing all of this and you're not doing “Sunday Lunch”- are you still acting and presenting and just in other stuff? Because you're great at that too TOYAH: It's been very busy. Ironically, literally two months before the beginning of lockdown I had three movies coming out, which then came out during lockdown. I won best supporting actress for “The Ghost Of Borley Rectory” In “Give Them Wings” I got the Richard Harris Award for Best Supporting Actress. So it's been very busy. And yes, both Robert and I are presenting. We're in the very beginning of pre-production of our own TV series

BABS: Brilliant! Will it be based on “Sunday Lunch” and will the gold be making an appearance? (laughs) TOYAH: No, it's all about music and the UK BABS: Oh, OK. Is that coming out later in the year, hopefully? TOYAH: Oh, gosh no, it won’t be made in time. This is for next year BABS: OK. It's just been an absolute joy to speak to you. I love “Sunday Lunch”. I've loved you since I was 10 years old TOYAH: Awww BABS: And now the fact that you're going to be on my doorstep next month is just brilliant. I can not wait, Toyah! Thank you so much for your time TOYAH: Thank you and have a wonderful few weeks in between then and now BABS: Thank you, Toyah! TOYAH: Bye!

LISTEN to the interview HERE

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ABSOLUTE 80s WITH CHRIS MARTIN 22.6.2023

CHRIS MARTIN: You're joining us again for “My Absolute 80s”. I'm stoked beyond belief to say that Toyah is my guest this week. Toyah, welcome TOYAH: Thank you so much. It's really good to be here CHRIS: Is this a kimono you're wearing? It’s beautiful! TOYAH: It is really beautiful. I bought it about four years ago. I used to live in Menton on the border of France and Italy. It was on a street stall and it was so out of place four years ago and now it's totally in fashion. I'm really glad I have it CHRIS: Lovely silky green floral thing. You look absolutely fantastic. This show in front of us ... If you're joining us for the first time on "Absolute 80s" every song you hear - Toyah picked them. Every single one for the next hour This is the joy of the show for me, getting a glimpse inside our favourite artist's musical tastes and also to talk about their lives in the 80s. Toyah, shall we begin with song number one? I'm going go for the rather chipper Depeche Mode. “Just Can't Get Enough”. It is a party starter, isn't it? TOYAH: It is a party starter but the thing about Depeche Mode is they always have quite a serious angle within their songs and within their videos. They're so amazing live. I've only ever watched DVDs of them live. I've never managed to get to see them actually live I have so much respect for everything they've done, especially in the 80s. They were one of the first bands to hire their own stadiums and play in America. They didn't think anyone would come and the whole of America came. That really was the beginning of their megastardom. So I adore everything about Depeche Mode DEPECHE MODE Just Can't Get Enough CHRIS: That was back in 1981. What's going on in your head? Where does that take you back to? TOYAH: Well, I ruled the world in 1981. The most successful female singer of the year and in 1982, because of that, I won Best Female Singer at what was the Brit Awards back then. It was an incredible year for me. All my dreams came true. I had my first Top Of The Pops I was touring pretty much non-stop. I can remember doing a performance on Top Of The Pops, which always went out live, and having a little prop plane waiting at a private airport. Flying over to Belgium and doing a TV the next day and flying back It was a remarkable time and it was a very different time. Culturally and technically. We didn't have mobile stones. We relied on everything working on dates being set in the calendar and just turning up. There was no way of taking a plane over to Munich to do a show that we could check in on the way. We just arrived there. We did these enormous festivals and came back. It was very exciting. Very, very young. We were full of energy. We ruled the world

CHRIS: I love the stories of Live Aid where they had the countdown clocks - obviously there was so many acts to get through quickly. Everyone had to be regimented. “Don't start “Bat Out Of Hell” with three minutes to go whatever you do”

TOYAH: I beg for those countdown clocks because even on festivals today, they say "you've only got 45 minutes, you've got to be off". And if they haven't put a countdown clock on the stage you can't look at your watch while singing to 30 000 people. It's rude (Martin laughs). We rely so much on basic things CHRIS: I wonder if you could just go on the mic and say "anyone got the time? I have no idea where we are right now" TOYAH: Oh, I've done that! (Martin laughs) I often work with backing bands I've never worked with before. You run onstage. Everyone has learned your arrangements. You go, this is a “Echo Beach!” and they start playing “It’s A Mystery” and you think oh, my God! What setlist are they using?! I had that three weeks ago. I had to turn to the bass player and say "could you tell me what song you're doing next?" It does happen! CHRIS: Oh, my goodness me! OK, song number two. Let's stay in the early part of the decade. I'm enjoying this a lot already. Duran Duran, "The Reflex" TOYAH: Whooo (excited) DURAN DURAN The Reflex CHRIS: Duran Duran. Were they one of those bands that you looked at their style and went "it doesn't matter what you release. You just look amazing. You're going to be successful"? TOYAH: We're all Birmingham people. I had a show called “Look! Here!” at Pebble Mill and gave Duran Duran their first TV appearance. I was a presenter on this show and became a very famous singer while I still had this series. So I gave Duran Duran their first TV appearance with “Planet Earth”. They were bloody beautiful back then! They were just so stunningly beautiful But what none of us realised was they would take the leap from, what was the normal number one circuit in rock, your Hammersmith Apollo's, all of those big theatres - they would take the leap into stadiums. They did it and they just have never looked back and they deserve every moment of success. They're great songwriters, they are a really good team. That team has stayed together. And they're lovely people CHRIS: Next song we are up to Liverpool, Echo and The Bunnymen. Have you got particularly fond memories of the band or of Liverpool itself? TOYAH: I don't know the band. I've never met the band or worked or been on the bill with the band. But “The Killing Moon” is an absolute cultural classic. Again, I have so much respect for the longevity of this band. Their audience is totally dedicated and they're winning new audience all the time Some of my most exciting experiences as a live performer have been at Liverpool. I remember once turning up to do an interview for Radio City and we couldn't get to the station because there were crowds everywhere. I actually wound down my window in the car and I said “we're trying to get to such and such street”, but we can't. What's going on?" and the whole crowd turned around and said “we're waiting for you!” (Chris laughs) They closed the streets, there was thousands of them. I had to be led by firemen through this crowd into a building, up onto the balcony and I had to go out on the balcony and wave to everyone so that the streets might clear and the traffic could continue to move around Liverpool

ECHO & THE BUNNYMEN The Killing Moon CHRIS: Toyah was just regaling us with stories of being mobbed in Liverpool. Echo and The Bunnymen. That song - it's an exercise in space, isn't it? TOYAH: People often talk about the simplicity of the right ingredients. The Rolling Stones has it. Every song that they've ever released is on the surface simplistic but actually it's brilliant. You've only got the necessary ingredients to make a Michelin star meal and “The Killing Moon” is one of those songs It has everything that is needed and nothing more. But also what is very classic about it is the video. The video is something that helps you remember the song. It's about space and surrealism and it's absolutely perfect CHRIS: Speaking of space surrealism and a fantastic video - should we go to David Bowie's “Ashes to Ashes” next? TOYAH: When I first heard this, the sound design of the song is so amazing. And then Bowie was very clever on the video to use the biggest cult people in London at the time, which was Steve Strange and all of the new romantics that were important. Everyone on that video was an absolute trend leader in London at the time It’s a beautiful video and this is what Bowie was very clever at. The song itself refers back to “Major Tom”, which was his first major hit. (The lyrics) “Ground Control to Major Tom”, (in) “Space Oddity” (1969) It was such a clever link. Clever song. I've been in love with it ever since. It's a song that takes me right back to the 80s more than any other song DAVID BOWIE Ashes To Ashes CHRIS: There’s a sort of thread to the songs you’ve chosen. Pop but there's a darkness to them. Tthat is a real sweet spot for me in music where the darkness lies in pop. The minor chords, the threat There is a brightness too though, to some of your choices. I think this next one is a bit of marketing genius from Prince. It was released about a week and a half before Valentine's Day. Did you know that? TOYAH: No, I had no idea at all! CHRIS: “Kiss”. Clever swine! TOYAH: I believe that he didn't like this song. I believe that he felt it was too obvious. But my theory is that sometimes the most obvious is the cleverest. And as you say this was released just before Valentine's Day The glorious thing about this song is everyone wants to dance to it. Whether you're a heavy metaller, or you're a new romantic - everyone wants to dance to this song. Prince may have believed it wasn't the best song he ever wrote but it's one of the most memorable he ever wrote It's just so simple. “All I want is your kiss”. It’s one word, and it even has only one syllable. I'm a lyricist. How do you make a word like kiss work? It's on the downbeat, it's just kiss. It's simple. It's a brilliant piece of songwriting PRINCE Kiss CHRIS: We’ve talked about what it’s like to be Toyah in respects of presenting and songwriting and the many facets to your life. I have to say your voice has been echoing through my house more than I expected this year. My little boy, who's four, has found “Brum”! (below) (Toyah laughs) I sat down with him thinking I’ve not watched this in years. Wait a minute! They know that voice!

TOYAH: (puts on the narrative voice of “Brum”) “It’s a big day in the city! Brum brum brum!” (Chris laughs) I loved doing that series! It was created by Anne Wood and she went on to create “Teletubbies”. I was the narrator at the top of “Teletubbies” as well. I love doing voiceovers. I enjoy it so much! CHRIS: I enjoy it. I've never had any designs on being an actor in my life. But if someone says "be this type of person, be this character" - you can just have fun in 30 second bursts. Just pretending and playing. It is pure joy, isn't it? It's escapism TOYAH: I absolutely adore acting. It's something I could never ever walk away from. I love working with camera and the whole family of a crew. It's very rewarding and very intense, but you lose yourself in it It's exactly the same experience for me in front of the microphone on stage. It's the only moment where no one can send me an email. No one can phone me. No one can ask me a favour. It's my time and I really love it CHRIS: As somebody, who was quite young in the 80s, I would love to hear your perspective on George Michael and him going solo after Wham! Obviously artists do this all the time. Did you look at him and think yeah, he's got every ounce of star quality. He cannot be anything other than an enormous success ... or was there any doubt? TOYAH: It's a very good question because Wham! was a very beautiful boy band with Michael and Andrew. They were fantastic at what they did. I slightly regret that I never appreciated Wham! because I was a punk rocker - but I do now. We were encouraged to take the mickey out of each other. I reviewed Wham! on one of their last gigs for Radio One at Hammersmith Odeon. I was a great show. It was really a beautiful show Halfway through it the curtains closed and George came out through the curtains and sang “Careless Whisper”. It blew me away. Because at that point you knew he was going to be a world superstar. That was my review. I said “Careless Whisper” is the song that's going to make him a solo artist. As time went on, as the 80s moved into the 90s he started to do the most extraordinary work. But he also started to become very uncomfortable with his fame I was one of these people that wish that he could have appreciated how unique and how brilliant his songwriting and his voice was. I remember Frank Sinatra doing an open letter to him saying “George, take yourself seriously. You are utterly unique”. And now we don't have him anymore. I'm actually heartbroken because he was just so special GEORGE MICHAEL Faith CHRIS: He’s having a great pop career and then just to rock it with an acoustic ... That's just perfect. And looking like that when he did it as well! TOYAH: He’s the most perfect man! CHRIS: He is. To another front man. I know more than a couple of people who absolutely swoon over Michael Hutchence, INXS TOYAH: They were kind of the love child of Prince meets Keith Moon (Chris laughs) Everything was based on beat and rhythmic syllables around that beat and the extraordinary beauty of Michael Hutchence. I feel really protective towards his legacy because he is no longer here to talk for himself. But the songs and the band were utterly amazing. And by all accounts he was a beautiful human being. A wonderful human being that came under attack in public life for his extraordinary beauty There’s a story that Helena Christiansen (his girlfriend at the time) tells about a taxi driver getting out of the taxi and punching his lights out for no reason at all. Now, what you have to remember with really famous beautiful men, they're a threat to every other man on the planet who wants to spread their seed Michael Hutchence had to stick up for himself the whole time. He did it like a poet. He did it like (John) Keats, he did it with words. I think he's a remarkable human being from history that we must never forget INXS Need You Tonight

CHRIS: If you've just tuned in and you've thought this music tonight has been absolutely incredible ... well ... you can thank Toyah for every single song choice. Toyah has joined me for "My Absolute 80s" but also taken on - there's some bravery in this, Toyah - taking on Grace Jones', “Slave To The Rhythm” (above) and executing it brilliantly, I must say TOYAH: Thank you. There is a history to this. My long-term writing partner wrote the original version of “Slave To The Rhythm”. It was then picked up by Trevor Horn and his writing team. Trevor then recorded it with Grace Jones. In between all of that happening, I was the demo singer on the demo that went to Holly Johnson for Frankie Goes To Hollywood to do the song and Holly turned it down So 40 odd years on Simon Darlow and I were in the studio. We've had massive success with the last album “Posh Pop” and we said let's do “Slave To The Rhythm”. We do realise that we're covering a song that is an absolute classic by Grace Jones and Trevor Horn. We’re fully aware of that, and full of respect for it Our version is myself, Simon Darlow and the legendary guitarist Robert Fripp, who I'm married to. Robert Fripp has come on board and we've completely reinvented the album “In The Court Of The Crimson Queen”

TOYAH Slave To The Rhythm CHRIS: Toyah, you've been watching my smile while we've been talking. It has been utter joy doing this with you. Thank you so much. We are finishing up with one final song. A little word on R.E.M’s “The One I Love” to wrap up TOYAH: I'm very lucky to call R.E.M friends. The drummer Bill Rieflin was a long-time friend of myself and Robert. I've made three albums with him. We used to follow him and R.E.M on the road. They’re great friends, Peter Buck and Michael Stipe. Absolutely gorgeous man. These are people in my heart R.E.M The One I Love LISTEN to the interview HERE

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TOYAH AND ROBERT ON VECTIS RADIO, ISLE OF WIGHT WITH NIK AND KIEREN 18.6.2023

KIEREN THOMSON: We’re in the quite a wet marquee, on Sunday afternoon. Myself and Nick are speaking to the amazing Toyah Willcox and Robert Fripp. Good afternoon TOYAH: Hello! How are you? KIEREN: I'm very well. How are you? TOYAH: We're good! We’re pretty high spirited at the moment, which is fantastic ROBERT: Superb audience. I very much enjoyed playing. I was in the mood to rock out today and I think got the chance to do so TOYAH: Yes, we're a guitar band and the audience totally got it, which was lovely. We saw people, who looked as if they travelled from all over the world. Robert is really big in Japan and (to Robert) you didn't see this but I think most of the front row had come from Japan see you (laughs) ROBERT: Ah! TOYAH: I get to see these things ROBERT: You see, I'm really focused on my wife, the playing and the band. Toyah interacts directly with the audience for me. It would distract me from my counting and the next bars. So I listen to my wife afterwards and she tells me whether we went down or not NIK ATTFIELD: You've always had such an amazing energy on stage. I saw you many years ago and you were such an influence on my young life. I'm so amazed. It's brilliant that you guys are together - TOYAH: That I can still move! (laughs) NIK: No, not at all. It's so brilliant that you're still bringing new things musically etc. You performing together came about because of lockdown? TOYAH: Lockdown was so successful for us with the “Sunday Lunch” brand (on YouTube) Over 111 million people visiting. We're touring the “Sunday Lunch” in October. We’re playing music that we feel plays us. This is music we grew up with. Music we love We discovered through “Sunday Lunch” that the audience loves it too. So we're going out on the road doing classics that really fire us up. We're having as much a party as the audience is NIK: Which is amazing, great fun. Do you think if it hadn't been for “Sunday Lunch” you would've ever done this together?

TOYAH: No

ROBERT: I don’t think so, no

NIK: You’ve got one of the most famous marriages in rock and roll. You've been together a long time and had a lot of time apart, I imagine, travelling the world in your separate careers

TOYAH: I think we’d still be having time apart if it wasn't for lockdown. Robert is on the road at least three times a year. I work mainly UK, some parts of Europe but we're never in the same country

NIK: So a great opportunity to bring you together and see that talent together

ROBERT: (shouts) Yeah! Yeah! Did I sound enthusiastic? Yeah!

NIK: Yeah, absolutely!

KIEREN: You're doing “Paranoid”, “Are You Gonna Go My Way". An amazing track “Rebel Yell”

ROBERT: Oh, there’s a few you haven’t heard yet

TOYAH: “Enter Sandman”, "Kashmir”. We didn't have long enough today

KIEREN: You've got the tour, the opportunity to do a little bit more. You're playing around the UK. You're excited to do that? TOYAH: Yeah KIEREN: Maybe less wet? TOYAH: Glastonbury next Sunday KIEREN: In a more wet month TOYAH: Yeah, but we're in a tent. Then October is the “Sunday Lunch” tour. So we're optimistic NIK: Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to meet you. And we just love you on Vectis Radio TOYAH: Thank you ROBERT: Thank you LISTEN to the interview HERE

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TOYAH AND ROBERT ON BBC BREAKFAST WITH SALLY NUGENT AND JON KAY 21.6.2023

JON KAY: At exactly eight o'clock the gates will open at Glastonbury for the first campers to go in. It's looking dry and sunny for most of the weekend, and that is good news for everyone who's pitching a tent SALLY NUGENT: But maybe disappointing for people who like to go and enjoy the mud ... Some people who are definitely going to be there ... The singer Toyah Willcox and her guitarist husband Robert Fripp, who will be performing together on Sunday. They're here with us now, before you face the mud and the tents. Good morning! TOYAH: Good morning! ROBERT: Hi! TOYAH: This is the first time either of us have played Glastonbury. So excited JON: I'm not sure the dress code is going to work (they all laugh) TOYAH: We always dress like this. Even with our show, the Toyah and Robert Rock Party SALLY: We love it! TOYAH: We’re pretty dressed up. So it's going to be quite an experience JON: Well, that's brilliant, isn't it? You got to be who you are. That's what Glastonbury is all about TOYAH: I will be in six inch heels. Thigh boots, head to toe in glitter. And if we've got to go through the mud, we've got to go through the mud SALLY: I love that. Isn't it brilliant that you haven't played Glastonbury before and now here you are with all these years of experience. You can bring that to the stage

TOYAH: I think we have over 100 years of experience between us (To Robert) You don't mind me saying you're 77?

ROBERT: Not at all!

TOYAH: I'm 65 so it's about time we play Glastonbury and we're really proud about it. We've done huge festivals around the world. My husband opened for the Rolling Stones at Hyde Park -

ROBERT: In July 1969

TOYAH: I've done massive festivals across Europe and in the UK, but never Glastonbury

JON: I can feel the excitement. Robert, what is it about Glastonbury that is so exciting for you?

ROBERT: Well, I realised after the Isle Of Wight Festival on Sunday, which was a blast -

TOYAH: It was amazing

ROBERT: - that I was probably the only person on the site that actually played festivals in the 60s. I was probably the oldest person on the site anyway. In 1967, when I turned professional, we all knew that music could change the world. The the free festivals were a primary vehicle for - today you might say - social transformation

The point is, by getting together with music, a lot of people in these events had such a power. We knew the world could spin backwards and the future you could reach back and grab us

TOYAH:

Everyone you've been talking to, who are waiting at the gates - they want joy, they want music, they want to make friends. And what's so special about Glastonbury it's a groundbreaking festival. Its future forward looking to the whole ecology arguments and how we can change the world. It's a great success. Glastonbury speaks for itself

SALLY: Isn't that interesting? I love what you said there, Robert. It's like the future coming back and picking you up. Showing you forwards

ROBERT: Yes!

SALLY: You have vast experience of festivals. How have you seen them change?

ROBERT: To begin with they were all free. Primarily run by volunteers, including the Hells Angels. Today, the spirit is there but the organisation is much more professional. And if you're getting several tonnes of equipment on the stage, and turning up to an event with hundreds of thousands of people it's very good that the organisation is professional

TOYAH: Isle Of Wight (below) was just unbelievable. It was fabulous! E veryone talks about the toilets at festivals -

SALLY: Yes, we have already mentioned them ourselves this morning, haven’t we, Jon? TOYAH: The people who organise them mostly volunteers. They're absolutely fabulous. The actual audience themselves are a joy to be in front of. So this is a privilege for us

JON: That word joy. You've used the word joy a lot and how we all have this need for joy, especially after the last few years. You spread so much joy during the pandemic with your videos, your social media TOYAH: "Robert and Robert's Sunday Lunch", which were touring in October. Coming back to Manchester, to the Lowry. We realised during lockdown that classic rock changes people's lives and it gives people the chance to visit really good memories. For me it would be David Bowie “Life On Mars, which I first heard when I was 12. Every time I hear that song I'm taken back there And very much the concept of what we are doing, as a very large band, is taking people back to classic rock but also introducing new generations, who have just come from the dance tent, to Led Zeppelin. We're introducing them to Black Sabbath. We're even introducing them to classic Blondie and Robert has work with Debbie Harry and Blondie. So that's the whole concept of what we're doing SALLY: What's quite interesting now for teenagers and young people, they are more aware of classic music because of the new forms of social media like Tik Tok. All the older stuff is coming through again, isn't it? TOYAH: It is and (there's) another beautiful thing about festivals. We played one on Friday, where I was watching a father with his son on his shoulders. The years between them seemed enormous. But at that moment in time, as this father held his little boy on his shoulders, you can see that in 20 years time they will talk about that moment. The bonding, it's so special JON: We heard from Boney M on Monday how their music is reaching a new generation of fans through Tik Tok TOYAH: We easily look out at five year olds and 85 year old audience, all having a good time JON: Looking at the crowds go through the gates at Glastonbury this morning it was really striking that the age range was enormous TOYAH: And let's face it, we should live every year of our lives as if it's the best year of our lives. Age should not be something that we judge. As you say the gates that Glastonbury shows that's really true SALLY: Couldn't agree more. I think the pair of you are the living breathing example of that, aren't you? It just doesn't matter, does it? TOYAH: No, we're still pretty anarchic (Jon laughs) SALLY: Is it your attitude or is it the music? Is it the performance? What is it? TOYAH: It’s the music ROBERT: It's my wife's energy. There is something about her classic repertoire. It’s s not old. It's alive, it’s in the moment. It’s immediate. Nothing ages with the classic repertoire JON: Not going there camping there though, are you? TOYAH: No! (they all laughs) JON: You weren’t temped? ROBERT: No TOYAH: Never done it! JON: Never camped?! TOYAH: No, we drive overnight to avoid being in the tent (Jon laughs) SALLY: I love that! JON: (whispers) There are a few caravans out the back as well TOYAH: Thank goodness! JON: Lovely to meet you! Thank you so much for coming in and enjoy it! You’re going to! TOYAH: We will SALLY: What a moment! TOYAH: Yeah! WATCH the interview HERE

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MY 80s PLAYLIST, VIRGIN RADIO WITH STEVE DENYER 5.5.2023

STEVE: We're going to start off with your first track. Bowie, “Ashes To Ashes”. Is this your favourite Bowie song? Why have you picked it? TOYAH: It's a very powerful Bowie song for me. Bowie always punctuated the points in my life where I felt the carpet had been pulled from under my feet. The first time I heard “Life On Mars”, for instance, I was doing an audition with Phil Daniels for a play on BBC2. I sang “Life On Mars” at my first audition and got the part With “Ashes To Ashes“ - I was already becoming a very cult, famous figure within the punk movement in 1980. I remember going away to write songs with my writing partner at that time, Joel Bogen (the guitarist of the Toyah band). We were just a bit lost. We'd been signed to a record label but we hadn't quite got the full band together “Ashes To Ashes” came on the radio when we were in a cottage somewhere in Dorset, writing, and my whole life changed in that moment. Bowie did that for me whenever I felt lost or broken. Bowie put me back together and “Ashes To Ashes” is one of those songs STEVE: I've always wanted to ask you about Derek Jarman. I heard that he kind of spotted you. As far as the movie “Jubilee” goes, which I've seen - it blew my teenage mind. But he said to you “I want you in this movie. I don't care who you play. I want you in here" Tell me how you met him? How it started out? TOYAH: The actor Ian Charleson, (who was in “Chariots Of Fire”), we were both working at the National Theatre. Ian said to me "you've got to come and meet this director called Derek Jarman. He's making a movie about the punk movement and the royal family". I think the original name of the movie was going to be “Down With The Queen” and it became “Jubilee” Derek and I and Ian and had tea at his apartment. Derek's way of casting a movie was just extraordinary. He said, “look at the script. Pick your role. But you can't play "Amyl Nitrate" because that's Jordan”. Jordan, the iconic punk queen (below on the right) I picked “Mad”. I literally flipped through the script and went for the part with the most lines But then a few weeks later Derek had to say to me that his budget had been cut, and he had to cut down the whole film to four characters. He instinctively realised that I was heartbroken that “Mad” was going to be cut from the script. Then a week later Derek phoned and said “I've given up my fee so that you can be in the film" and he put “Mad” back in That is exactly who and what Derek was. Derek put people in a room and said “do whatever you want”. So if you can imagine, literally, where this building is that you and I talking in now, was one of the sets ... It was an old warehouse. John Mabry doing the sets. Kenny the drummer from Siouxsie and the Banshees was painting the walls You had Adam Ant and myself, Little Nell, Jenny Runacre. We were all together just making this film happen in this kind of family atmosphere, with Derek Jarman giving us sandwiches to sustain us. And it worked. I actually believe that that film was 40 years too soon Now, in today's climate, and with today's revolution of language, of history, of addressing the equality of everyone, and the equality of choice within everyone - Derek was there 42 years ago. Behaving like that, living like that and fighting for those rights. This film, as mad as it is, I think belongs today

STEVE: Yeah, amazing. Also these movies have gone down in cult status now. Blew my teenage mind watching that. I wasn't sure what I was watching, but I loved it and I'd never seen anything like it before

TOYAH: (There was) nothing like it. Very collage and very free thinking. As performers we're all bouncing off the walls with our energy. What I love today is so many young kids, and I'm talking about 16 - 17 year olds, are coming up to me saying “we're studying Derek Jarman. We want to make movies like that” STEVE: Brilliant. What shall we pick next? What would you like? TOYAH: I think Kate Bush because Kate, quite rightly, her catalogue from 1985, which is “Hounds Of Love” is just … It's announced today that she's getting a song writing nomination as a contemporary artist for the Ivor Novello Award. It was absolutely amazing when the “Hounds Of Love” came out. It was groundbreaking. It lifted Kate from the artist that everyone felt they knew with “Babooshka” and “Wuthering Heights” It lifted her into the stratosphere of A-list writers, even in 1985. To have it come back the way it has, and she's being discovered now by a completely new audience, I think is the most perfect trajectory for a career anyone could have STEVE: What do you think about the whole situation with a movie or a TV show picking up on a song from years ago, using it and suddenly ... (makes an explosion sound) TOYAH: I personally would say the record industry as it is today, where we are reliant on download sales ... that doesn't necessarily pay our way. We're all completely reliant on what's called sinks and that is your back catalogue being discovered or even your present catalogue being placed in a movie, an advert or a TV series. We’re totally reliant on it But I feel really, really optimistic that it opens up the world of music. Every genre, every timeframe. 80s, 70s, 60s, 90s, 2000. I mean, it's all possible now and it's all happening STEVE: Did you know Kate? Do you know her? Have your paths crossed? Can you tell me something about her? TOYAH: When Kate had Bertie and the world didn't know about her son, Kate would come to our house. I live on the River Avon and my father would take them out on his boat. They had privacy and could play. So we know the private Kate STEVE: What is she like? Is she otherworldly? TOYAH: She's incredibly bright and intelligent. Otherworldly, possibly, yes. But just a really beautiful human being. Kind. She loves other people. She loves interesting people. She's always interested in what you're doing and what you're up to Always wants a lovely conversation. Kate never sits down and talks about Kate. Kate sits down and talks about you. Very like Derek Jarman. Just a really lovely soul who just wants to be plugged into creativity STEVE: Amazing. How do you think she feels now after the year that she's had? TOYAH: She thrilled STEVE: You know? You’ve spoken to her? TOYAH: Well, we got an email at Christmas and she said "my goodness, you wouldn't believe what's going on!" Kate's very private, and she loves the silence of her home life. She makes jam. She makes cakes. She loves being involved with Bertie’s social circle. I think it amazes her as someone, who tries to stay out of the limelight, that she's increasingly been thrown back into it The most amazing conversation I had with her was backstage at “Before The Dawn” (Kate's concert residency at Hammersmith Apollo) in 2013. She'd just been invited to take the show to Broadway and she said "I just look forward to going home.” I love that! STEVE: You’ve probably answered my next question. Would she go out on tour again off the back of this success? TOYAH: I'm not answering that for her. That's her right STEVE: Do you think she might do a couple of shows? TOYAH: (shakes her head) That's for her to talk about. But what I will say is the most talented people in the world and I've worked with a lot of them - they're not actually terribly ambitious. My husband's Robert Fripp (below with Toyah in 1986). He's the most private, home based person I know. And Kate is very similar. Her values are with love and family, as well as creativity

STEVE: “Hounds Of Love” - what does it mean to you?

TOYAH: When I first heard "Hounds Of Love" I was on a plane going to meet my husband. He was about to propose to me and I was very vulnerable. I was in tears. I was leaving my old life to go to America. So “Hounds Of Love” to me is about the life I was about to enter into. Very broken time for me. I was leaving an old life to start a new life

STEVE: What's the next one we're going to go for?

TOYAH: Well, it's very linked to Kate Bush in many ways - it's Peter Gabriel. I'm going for “Sledgehammer”. His management called me in to listen to his album. I was blown away. I'm very flattered that they wanted my opinion on it. They played me “Sledgehammer” and I thought "this is fantastic!". I have loved Peter Gabriel ever since he went solo

And of course my husband produced him as a solo artist and played on “Here Comes The Flood” (1977,) I believe. So the links are all there. My husband was in the studio hen Peter and Kate did “Don't Give Up”. Peter did about 73 takes, I've been led to believe, and Kate got it right on the first take. My husband was in the studio and he was sitting there thinking “she's got it right. Just stop doing takes. She's got it right on the first take!”

STEVE: The pressure!

TOYAH: So I want to play Peter Gabriel because he inspires me. If ever I need to just open my mind up and feel really creative ... it's “Sledgehammer”. It’s “Us”, the album. Everything he does informs me of what I would like to do

STEVE: Can you remember hearing this track for the very first time because obviously now it's gone down in legendary status. How did it make you feel?

TOYAH: The first time I heard it I felt complete envy. Because this is such a complete song. The production, the vocal. The arrangement is so wonderful. I envy anyone who has that time and that focus to do it. Peter can scrap whole albums and start again but when he gets it right, my goodness, it's there for eternity

I then went to Switzerland to film a TV programme and I was in the Alps, in the snow, sitting on a balcony just looking out over the mountains. "Sledgehammer" was on a loop on my Walkman. I came away from that experience, just an hour listening to “Sledgehammer” and wrote an album called “Ophelia’s Shadow”, which was critically acclaimed in America

It's nothing to do with “Sledgehammer”, but the whole experience of Peter’s voice, his choices of how he sings words, like Bowie, how he'll deliver a line, his timing ... just unlocked me creatively. I just sat there, writing non-stop

My husband watches me do this when we watch TV. When I see Claes Bang, the actor, in a film or a drama ... they unlock me. I keep a pen and a pad next to me. My hand is just writing, writing, writing, writing. My husband says “how are you doing that? You're not even looking at the paper.” I just think certain people open a creative pathway. I never let those moments go and I can come away with 10 pages of ideas

STEVE: Of course we do need to quickly chat about the video to this track because it really is, even now, something special!

TOYAH: Groundbreaking

STEVE: He apparently sat under a sheet of glass for 16 hours in the knowledge that nobody would do that and never come close to doing it

TOYAH: This was at the time when stop frame technology was the only way to do it. There was no CGI at this time. There was no other way of doing it than animation and this is live animation. I just think he knew he was onto a good thing. He trusted the filmmakers

This is what's so beautiful about Peter’s career is that he will go off on really strange tangents that bring something back into the Zeitgeist and he creates Zeitgeist. And that's why he is who he is

STEVE: Brilliant. Which one are we going to go for next?

TOYAH: I would love to go for Marc Almond and “Tainted Love"

STEVE: I love it! Tell me about this TOYAH: I'm touring all of this year with my husband, Robert Fripp. We’ve got Isle Of Wight, Cropedy Festival (above, Toyah at Cropedy in August 2022) and many many other festivals. And then we're touring in October, in homage to our social media hit “Sunday Lunch” STEVE: What happened there? Tell me about that because that's exploded - TOYAH: What we're doing for the tour is we'll have a big screen and the show will have an image and narration of looking back at the “Sunday Lunches”. But basically Robert and I are just doing an absolutely rocking tour. We're going out and doing rock music. It's a live music show STEVE: Have you toured with him before? TOYAH: Yes, with a band called Sunday All Over The World in 1988. But not since then. But we love working together. So people will come up, they will have a fantastic show. The show is 50% British writers, 50% English writers 11 of my songs are in the show but then we pepper the show with great rock. So we have Guns N' Roses, we have Marc Almond - which is why I want to play “Tainted Love”, because that's in our show. I cannot believe this came out as early as 1981 - STEVE: That's amazing TOYAH: Isn't it incredible? STEVE: 43 years ago TOYAH: When that intro begins you just need that first da da and the audience just go crazy! I've seen this. I work with Marc Almond all the time at the “Rewind” and “Let’s Rock” festivals and you just get that first da da and the whole audience is just dancing. Elated! I think that's the power of this production for Marc Almond The video is sensational because it's the first time people wore this kind of lighting technology. So you have two dancers come in through a window and they've got a light suit on. Then they're dancing while there's the model lying in bed and Marc is projected - STEVE: He’s a very attractive young man, if I may say so TOYAH: Oh, he’s gorgeous! The video is just perfection and I think this song is what the 80s is about STEVE: The album version is mixed into “Where Did Our Love Go” TOYAH: Oh, is it? I probably have heard it STEVE: It’s so good. And obviously this is a cover of a song by Gloria Jones. But everybody remembers this version TOYAH: This is the definitive and artists have done it very brilliantly ever since. But Marc - his delivery is vocal. He is a torch singer. You can feel his pain in everything he does. He delivers a very beautiful pain I think it's quite important within popular music that we recognise broken hearts. We recognise relationships that didn't last and all of that. He does it with a such a joyful song STEVE: Which one should we go for next on your list? We could do all of these. Did it take you a long time to put this list together? TOYAH: No, it didn't take a long time to put the list together because I think the 80s has so much to offer. I just don't think it's going to go away. These are storytelling songs. I’ve chosen INXS next, “Need You Tonight”, just because INXS by 1987 were able to strip the production back It was about rhythm. It was about hitting the beat. And you had this gorgeous beautiful adonis on lead vocals, Michael Hutchence. There's such an innocence about what they do and yet he cannot help exude extreme sexuality STEVE: What was it about him?

TOYAH: Perfect body. Perfect voice. He was flirtatious with the microphone and the camera. And of course the very famous story about Paula Yates at that time. It was the love story that everyone was intrigued by. Was it at that time or had they not met? STEVE: The love thing with her started on “The Big Breakfast” in the 90s. So "Need You Tonight” … 10 years later they were dating and he passed away in 97' before she did TOYAH: I interviewed her just before she passed away and she was actually in a very good place. Utterly beautiful. Just legendary beauty. Articulate. But she was in a good place She arrived with her friend Belinda, who protected her like a dragon, quite rightly Paula was able to talk about everything. I was super impressed and fell in love with her like everyone did, who met her. But I think something was going on with Michael long before it was public, which is why I've picked up on it STEVE: They were very very flirty on "The Big Breakfast". It was in bed, wasn’t it? TOYAH: I think Michael couldn't believe how forward she was. But they were made for each other. You could see it. I think he's a beautiful man and (it's) a fantastic band. I've always felt protective of him ever since (he was) at the BRITS. He was presented with a prize and the person who presented it said "you're a has-been" Fom that moment on I would fight a battle for Michael. I would fight to protect him because it was disgraceful that anyone, yet alone another artist, should abuse someone in front of such a big world audience like that. So I've always just felt really protective towards him STEVE: What a loss. What a shame TOYAH: A big loss! STEVE: How sad. I watched the Paula Yates documentary recently TOYAH: She was breathtaking STEVE: But it's great to hear what you said because everybody said the same thing that she was in a really great place and that death, if you want to call it accidental or whatever - it wasn't meant to happen TOYAH: Of course it wasn't meant to happen. Looking back at Peaches (Paula’s daughter with Bob Geldof) ... (her death) wasn't meant to happen. The DNA in this family is absolutely brilliant. What would Paula be doing now? She'd just be doing magnificent things. And she was in a great place at that time STEVE: We've done the five songs but let's pick another one because I’m having a great time TOYAH: I would love to pick Alice Cooper STEVE: What I really want to ask you, Toyah ... you were there. It's amazing to talk to somebody who was there at the punk scene. You remember it first time round. Do you think there's a chance that we could revisit anything like that? Do you think the punk scene might come back again? Or is it done and dusted? TOYAH: Oh no, it's not done and dusted. I do the Rebellion Festival (below, 2017), which is a punk festival and that audience is all ages. So obviously we original punks, because I'm about to turn 65 - we're of a certain age. But that audience is all age groups. I think what's beautiful about the punk philosophy is it policed itself. In the beginning it needed to be policed. There was a sidetracking into kind of the wrong image

STEVE: Was it really genuinely anarchic? TOYAH: Yes, absolutely! I was at the National Theatre when I was 18. I think I punked the National Theatre! I was the first punk there and it did shock people even in an establishment like the National, which is a groundbreaking theatre. But what it did for me - I'm not a conventional physical type for a woman in music. I'm very, very small. I don't have beautiful long legs. I'm just powerful. I have a lot of energy and bravado Punk allowed me into the music industry. People really resisted it. People resisted signing me. I probably was one of the last acts signed. I got signed to an independent label called Safari about 1978 and that was quite late to get signed. My sheer will and bravado pushed me into the front runners, as it were. And only last December (the album) “Anthem” (1981) was re-released and it charted again, went straight in at number 22 So I think because I haven't had physicality in my favour … Firstly I was gender neutral at the beginning of my career. I dressed gender neutral. I thought there was absolutely no point trying to win people over by being feminine. It just wasn't going to work

STEVE: Does that mean that you were non-binary? You didn't identify as being a she? TOYAH: I didn’t want to be identified as a gender. It was nothing to do with he or she. I just felt that people were judging me when they were writing about me as not attractive as a woman. No one that they wanted to sleep with as a woman. I found that really insulting that I was being judged purely on being attractive and not really as an up-and-coming artist. So I just started to not go that way STEVE: Did anyone ask any questions because it would seem that people were quite accepting of “you do you”? TOYAH: People were genuinely fascinated that I had the guts to not play the game of being that cute little woman. I was very aggressive in how I moved through my career. Not violent, but strident. People were genuinely fascinated My clothes designer was a woman called Melissa Caplan, who designed for Bananarama, Adam Ant, Steve Strange, and possibly Marc Almond at that time. Her remit was I want to be gender neutral. I am a human being not an agenda STEVE: Tell me about Alice Cooper, and why you want this song? TOYAH: “School's Out”. I love this song. And funnily enough, my husband loves this song. We covered it in our “Sunday Lunch” social media. Oh no, it's “Poison”! STEVE: Just explain what “Sunday Lunch” is just in case people haven't seen it or don't know what it is TOYAH: It’s on the Toyah You Tube channel and every Sunday at 12 noon we post 90 seconds of performance from Toyah and Robert. In the lockdown years this was huge around the world. It's still huge now! STEVE: Is that when it started? During the pandemic? TOYAH: Yes. We did it because we posted one film of us dancing, April the 19th 2020 and we instantly got replies from around the world. From New Zealand, from Bali, from Hong Kong. So we continued to do it every Sunday. We've had 111 million visits STEVE: Wow, that's impressive TOYAH: We're now having a documentary made about us, which is filming for the next 12 months, following us on on our tours STEVE: You do this track? You do “Poison”? TOYAH: On the tour we're going to do “School’s Out”. We did this track on "Sunday Lunch" and Alice Cooper was sent it. He was played it live on his broadcast. His band said “you need to see this.” We were made to watch him watching it live He was like, “Oh, what is this?” I sent a message to him ... “I'm really sorry about this, Alice, but you do not know what you mean to me. As a teenager in the early 70s and today. You've proven to me that you can just go through life being strong, doing what you believe in STEVE: What did he say back? TOYAH: He was so gracious STEVE: Is he lovely? TOYAH: He laughed his head off at the “Sunday Lunch” because I was dressed as a nurse and I think he was really embarrassed by it. But he was really lovely STEVE: An absolute pleasure. Toyah Willcox. Lots of love TOYAH: Thank you. Lots of love and see you on the road STEVE: See you there. Maybe at Glastonbury, maybe not. We don't know. It could happen … I'm getting a look (they both burst out laughing) Watch the interview HERE

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POP, THE HISTORY MAKERS WITH STEVE BLAME 8.5.2023

STEVE BLAME: I want to start with your childhood. We are formed from our childhoods. Your father was a businessman, your mother had been a dancer. What's written in Wikipedia is that she gave up dancing to have a family. Tell me about your early childhood because you were born with a bent spine and had a limp TOYAH: My early childhood was really idyllic. My parents were wealthy. My father was incredibly wealthy, right up until I was 12 years old. He ran a construction business in Birmingham. He had three factories. He came from the Willcox-Lang dynasty. He was a very hard working man. We had a new Rolls Royce every six months I never knew I was disabled. I think the thing about disability is you don't know you have it until other people treat you as if you're disabled. I was born at home. My mother literally prepared Sunday lunch for the family, my brother and sister and dad. She went into labour at about 11.15 The midwife came and she gave birth to me in her bedroom at 11.45 and was back down with the family by one o'clock. This is what life was then. And just to reflect back even further, my father was born at a time of high child mortality. He was one of 13 children and only three survived So there was a toughness about life back then. We didn't have central heating. We very rarely had hot baths until I was about seven and that was normal wealthy British life back then. With my disability, I knew something was up because every six months I was in hospital. Every morning and night my mother had to give me physio, which I really enjoyed This physio included things like painting with my feet, things that I became very expressive with. I could write with my feet. I could paint with my feet. I didn't know that to be called "Hopalong" by my family was politically incorrect (laughs) I thought I was being favoured! STEVE: It was the 70s or 60s (they both laugh) TOYAH: Mainly the 60s. I was a child of incredible braveness and bravado because I was singled out and I thought I was special (laughs) My mother had to buy two pairs of shoes. Small pair on my left foot, the larger pair on my right foot. I would fall a lot. I had raises on my left foot built into the shoes I just had a disability (laughs) It really wasn't until I reached the age of 11, when the corrective surgery started, that I started to be really pissed off with my body because the corrective surgery didn't work. Up until that point I was training to be a junior ice skating champion. I trained alongside John Curry. And then suddenly everything kind of went a bit kaput. I just started to fight against it because I was being labelled and I didn't like it

STEVE: Well, that's what I wanted to come to because children can be very unempathetic and any differences highlighted. At school, if you were any different in any way to other people, then you would be a target and there would be name-calling. I would think that to a certain extent that difference would also change you. So did been seen as different change you?

TOYAH: I think I was very liked at school, but also people picked on the speech impediments (laughs) I’m only laughing now because it's only in recent years I've seen with clarity how others saw me. I had no idea. I was dyslexic and had a very unique use of language and it made people laugh and I would get bullied. I’d get bullied because I was sensitive. I was easy to make me cry But the most extraordinary abuse I ever had was when I was about four and a half. In our class there was a Wendy house (a doll house) and two girls would take me into that Wendy house. They would remove their shoe laces and strangle me till I lost consciousness. I didn't know this was abuse. I didn't tell my parents. I didn't tell the teachers. Then I started to get abused because of the way I sounded rather than the way I moved And again, I didn't see it as abuse. But one day, after a night of no sleep and anxiety at home, I walked into the class and I picked a chair up and I smashed it over the bully’s head and that changed my life. After that point I became a bit of a leader in my school STEVE: You've also got a lisp, which I have. Some of the things that we have and we possess and people see as difference provide our drive in life. So in a sense that negativity can become later on. You've got to go through the shit, but later on it can be a positivity. Abuse wasn't only from other school children - your mother was quite abusive, wasn't she? TOYAH: My mother was severely mentally damaged by a childhood experience, which we only learned about three years ago after her death. ancestry.com showed us press cuttings from a court case that involved her when she was about 16 She'd witnessed her father murder her mother. My mother was illegitimate, which terrified her. Putting the pieces together I can see why my mother was the creature she was. My mother would have been terrified of people discovering not only was she illegitimate, but a member of her family murdered somebody

My mother was the absolute double of "Hyacinth Bucket" from a comedy called “Keeping Up Appearances”. So as children we weren't allowed to talk to anyone who had an accent. We weren't allowed to misbehave or even talk in public. She was very strict and my father was very strict and my schooling was very strict. But my mother's greatest fear was her history being found out When my father met my mother, she was touring with a comedian called Max Wall. She was 18. She'd already been chaperoned since the age of 16 and my father never understood why the chaperone was with her 24 hours a day. A female chaperone, who was with her even right up untill the wedding night The chaperone would never let my father be alone with my mother. We've now discovered that my mother's father, who murdered her mother in front of her, got out of prison within three months, and the chaperone was there to protect her from her father So my mother was living in constant fear. She didn't want to talk about this in our lifetime, not even to my father, who she was married to, or to my brother and sister. She carried this for the whole of her life. So my mother would fly off the handle with the greatest of ease She had real emotional difficulty, but as a very beautiful dancer and a woman who was a beauty queen in her teens, had given birth to a daughter with a physical defect ... she had a real problem with it. But also, she was abusive in that she couldn't control her emotions My sister, who is eight years older than me, has no memory of her childhood. My brother and I do because we remember my mother chasing us around the house with a carving knife shouting “I'm going to kill you!”. With me, the abuse was she felt I had no future. So every time I achieved something, the abuse was in the way of “don't believe in it. It's not going to happen” I when I won Best Female Singer in the equivalent of what is The BRITS in 1982 (below with Leo Sayer (on the left) and Dave Lee Travis), I phoned her and said “I've won”. And she said, “Well, don't brag about it. It's not going to continue”. And I said, “but I've got this beautiful trophy”. “Oh, you will fall on it and it will kill you” Everything to do with happiness, everything to do with joy, everything to do with eating was going to kill us. As soon as we put food in our mouths, she'd say “you will choke on it”. Every time I said “I'm going for a walk” ... “You will be murdered” was the reply We were tough children. My parents never knew how they had the children they had. My brother was a Harrier fighter pilot. One of only three to actually fly that plane at that time because it was so complex to fly. My sister is right at the top of the NHS. One of the runners of the accounting in the NHS In the July the 7th bombings (London, 2005) my sister is the one that emptied all the double decker buses, filled them with oxygen, got them into the underground and saved all those people. She made that decision above everyone else. We are tough children and my parents were the complete opposite

STEVE: That's amazing. My my father never loved me. I found this out from my mother after he died. She told me that she had a third child to keep him and of course because of that he never had anything to do with me in my early years I ended up being a presenter on MTV to get, I presumed, what I felt would be love from the whole world, which will compensate not having love from my father. When you hear me say that - this word compensation - do you you instantly know that this is what your fight for a career was as well? TOYAH: I was loved. I do believe I was loved in their way. I don't know about your dad, but my father had spent six years away at war, World War Two. And my mother is obviously going through a complete lack of education and a complete lack of support. They loved me in their way But their negativity always baffled me. It broke me. It meant that I could never experience joy, because they have programmed me to suffer when I experienced joy. I think my fight for survival is the industry never accepted me on a particularly large level. Mostly because I'm minute. I'm barely five foot tall, but I'm not proportioned like a model or like Kim Kardashian So I was always fighting for my presence as a viable woman. Every barrier I come up against, I will push back. I will push that barrier down. And I do think yes, you're right, that the contribution to that is my upbringing. But also my upbringing taught me to see injustice towards women. It taught me on a level that is deeply subconscious because my mother didn't use that language My mother was breathtakingly beautiful. When she delivered me to my first party with boys when I was 13, the whole room went quiet and a boy said “I want to snog her” and pointed to my mother. So my mother's breathtaking beauty got her through her life. But psychologically she was deeply broken STEVE: You mentioned that when you got the equivalent of a BRIT award back in 1982 you called your mother - TOYAH: Well, I was really calling my dad but my mother answered the phone (laughs) STEVE: But it's also looking for confirmation, isn't it? TOYAH: Oh, God! Yeah! STEVE: That's another thing that we look for in our lives ... the wounds that we have in our childhood - we look for the confirmation, but we never get it TOYAH: You don't get it. I got it in a very strange way that in the five days before my mother left this world she was screaming for me. She only wanted me with her. My mother had no faith, but my mother could see that I saw something different. I sat with her for the five days as well as the other family members But she knew that if I was there, I could help her get through those five days and release. Because it's just so bloody obvious. We never stop. Our consciousness is a continual thing. She only saw that in me or acknowledged it in the end. With my father it was the same. My father wanted me by his bedside. But they acknowledged it in the end STEVE: How difficult has it been for you to touch, in your life, on this trauma over your life? I've been trauma therapy. It's therapy where it's about how you hold things in your body and it's affected your health because of what happens in your past and then it's really trying to go deep inside It's a very painful process, but it's an important process. But I just wondered how you have dealt with that throughout your life. Just with other people on your own or with therapy?

TOYAH: The one person who saved my life is my husband, Robert Fripp (above with Toyah in 1988) He just saw it immediately. As soon as he met my mother he saw the problem. Robert’s had trauma in his life and I've had trauma. We sit down and we talk through everything. We sit down at least for an hour to two hours a day and just talk He helped unravel how I was physically responding to the experiences of negativity. He pointed it out. He said “what your mother has just said is just not logical”. I was suicidal after every time I met her. We were fighting until two weeks before she died! My husband would sit me down and say “you know what she just said is illogical”. Still, after 30 odd years, she would make him a cup of tea and he'd say “no milk, no sugar”, and she would deliver a cup of tea with milk and sugar. She would do completely the opposite So I'd say “I'm so excited! I'm going to be playing “Calamity Jane" in a national tour!" and she'd say “well, it will close in the first week and if it doesn't, you'll break a bone”. It's absolutely illogical! And I would hit the f***ing roof I started fighting back with her when I was 12 and eventually I was sent to live with a gorgeous Hindu family in Edgbaston in Birmingham, who just saw that we were going to kill each other. So we've had a long relationship of causing trauma to each other But Robert is the one that helped me deal with what I call career abuse - which is ironically the way my family treated me, calling me "Hopalong" - reflected also in my career with critics and reviews and general comments in showbiz press. It reflected, it was there. It was as if I was showing it on my shoulders Robert and I will often sit down and talk about why would a reviewer a lie. We had a review once from playing The Roundhouse with our band called The Humans. We volunteered to open a festival at 6 pm knowing that the ticket said it started at 7 pm. A reviewer said that no one was there to see us. “They decided not to come till 7 pm. The music was awful” and a reviewer wasn't even in the f***ing room! So we've always had to deal with dishonesty in the press and we talk about it a lot. I would say as a creative human being, my relationship with dishonesty in the performance field, I've had to deal with more than my parents. It's only since my parents passed and I learned my mother's history that I've been putting two and two together as to why I was treated the way I was treated And actually it's given me a feeling of being very well grounded. My survival instincts kicked in and I just see that the problem was theirs. So it wasn't mine. It was nothing to do with my disability. It was nothing to do with the fact that I'm small. Small people do get kicked. I am a survivor anyway. I'm a strong person STEVE: You just said that you moved in with a Hindu family. My father left when I was about 13. There were enormous rows. He was a market trader. He would throw money - we had these wooden panels that looked a bit like East Germany after the war and eventually they would be pockmarked because of all the money flying around I remember going around to a friend's house and his mum and dad sat on the sofa holding hands and I said to him “what are they doing?” because my only vision of a relationship was dysfunctional, horrendous I didn't see them in the early days, when, I presume, they were in love. I only saw them in the period when I was there. It's very hard not seeing and not having that feeling of love that you obviously didn't have from from your mother when she was alive TOYAH: I did. I did have love but there was part of her that was so broken it was like a split personality. She did give love and she did protect but it came with extreme outbursts of very confusing anger and despair. I said that my parents were very wealthy till I was 12. When I was 12 my father lost the entire family business in a stock market slump. We went from having Rolls Royces to having no food by Friday I think one of the reasons I am such a survivor and I'm so educated and I self-educate about everything, from money to investing to stocks and shares is because I saw my parents lose everything. So by the time I was 14 I was lying to get work so I could bring money into the house. But what really destroyed my parents and you've got to keep in mind that my mother was living a lie anyway about social status - for them to lose their money ... they lost their social status

Very wonderful people stepped in and gave them money. One is still alive. He's my uncle and not a blood uncle, but we call him uncle and he's 100 this year, and he stepped in. A very wealthy man and gave them a fund to live off Then I started working and I started to be able to fund them. Eventually I bought the family home off them and then I bought them a new home. I was giving them more money a week than I was earning when I was at the height of my fame. They were in that much shit financially. To watch two people be destroyed, who were so hooked on social status taught me a lot It meant that when I was being knocked and being criticised and being treated like the cheap version of Kate Bush in the press, I had to survive. I had to keep my parents alive. I had to keep them in a home. It did nothing but make me tougher and more determined and more self aware of how utterly f***ing brilliant and unique I am. I'm the toughest you can ever meet. That's what my upbringing did to me

STEVE: That's wonderful. I think that power that you have is incredible. The 70s were an era of unbelievable sexism, misogyny, racism and homophobia. They were everything. I was 13 in 1972 so we are the same age, I think. And as a gay teenager, along came David Bowie and suddenly there was this world where I felt I could belong. David Bowie played a similar role in your life TOYAH: His career trajectory was a gift to every artist because he struggled! He really struggled up to “Space Oddity”. He was just struggling to find his place. He was obviously phenomenally creative. Then after “Space Oddity” he had to deal with prog rock coming in, heavy rock coming in. It confused his writing. But I think “The Man Who Sold The World” is one of his best albums Then he found his place within “Ziggy Stardust” working with Mick Ronson, working with Tony Visconti. There's a producer called Scott, I can't remember his full name (Edit: Ken Scott), who really brought Bowie out. That career trajectory that then brought him into the most remarkable 10 years of any artist’s life is utterly inspiring to someone who wants to create something new every time they write but would really like commercial success with it. Bowie never let go of what he believed in and that was himself STEVE: One thing that was really very particular about Bowie was the fact that everything he did was imbued with different cultural aspects from books to art to dance to mime. It's all in there. When I first encountered Bowie on TV as a teenager, I wasn't aware of all those factors It was only later as I got to know his music and then realised there were other, including William Burroughs colour technique or whatever - there was other things within it. When did you become aware that there were so many cultural things within his music? TOYAH: I think the NME and the Record Mirror made it all very clear with excellent interviews with Bowie around 1972, possibly 71. Those magazines circulated in my school. But there was a brilliant Alan Yentob BBC documentary on Bowie, which explored his writing process and by this time he was already “The Man Who Fell To Earth” STEVE: That was “Cracked Actor”, wasn't it? TOYAH: “Cracked Actor”. Absolutely brilliant. At that point he really ignited the potential in me because I never fitted in. I didn't fit in with the education system because of my dyslexia and dyspraxia, but I saw a way I could fit in. He introduced me to more literature than my school did. The literature he read was high class I've only recently got into a surrealist artist called Leonora Carrington. She put a play on call “Penelope” about 1934 and the male lead has “Ziggy Stardust” makeup on. I only discovered this two months ago and I ran to my husband with a picture (and said pointing to the photo) “Ziggy Stardust!”. This is how he got his makeup! He got it from a surrealist artist called Leonora Carrington!” I thought that is just so brilliant! He was a fisher of culture. He threw the fishing rod out with the hook, pulled it back, and he made it work for him STEVE: What culture and books were you into as a teenager? TOYAH: All the typical ones. “Lord of the Rings”, which took me about three years to read. That led me on to “The Hobbit”, that led me on to all of J.R.R Tolkien's writings. A girl I went to school with called Angela Power, her father was Canon (Norman S) Power. He wrote similar literature to J. R. R. Tolkien and his books didn't break but these books are wonderful. He used to give me his books and I loved them I was also reading Mary Stewart, which is kind of romantic, legendary mythology, but I really loved the darker stuff. If I could pick up a Dennis Wheatley book from the library then I would. I loved things that led on to “Dungeons and Dragons” and all of that culture. I really loved it I also loved Black Sabbath. I loved Hawkwind. I went to see Uriah Heep but didn't quite get the music, but I loved being in that audience. I was only 11. I used to break into these venues. I love Moody Blues, and I probably would have loved King Crimson if I knew they were playing. There were probably many times I've broken into venues when my husband was in that venue STEVE: How did you break in?

TOYAH: I would get someone going in through the front and say “please go around to the back, there's a fire escape, just open it. I’ll get in quickly and close the door”. There would always be about 20 of us there It's a habit we kept going when we were touring as punk rockers. We would let people in at the fire exit once we'd sold enough tickets to pay our expenses. It was a culture back then, the fire escape entrance. People were very generous and they'd let us in STEVE: One thing that I read about is that you experienced a ghost. Another being from the other side of your bedroom. You used to communicate? TOYAH: Very special STEVE: Can you tell me about that? I had an experience when I was 45. I was in this hotel room in Luxembourg, actually. This family used to visit me every night and eventually I had to move out because it's freaked me out so much TOYAH: Tell me what they looked like? How many of them were there? STEVE: It was a nuclear family. It was two parents and two kids and they would hold on to them a bit sort of like the "American picture" TOYAH: What year was it? STEVE: This would have been 2001. I just wondered if that hotel was on something or whatever, but everyone thought I was a nutter by saying it the next day. No one wants to believe you. I really found it fascinating that you've also had similar experience TOYAH: Geographically where were you? STEVE: I was in Luxembourg TOYAH: Oh, that's very interesting. If you told me you were in Seattle, or you're in Minnesota, I would have said it was a shaman coming to teach you a lesson. We used to live and write with a musician called Bill Rieflin, who was the drummer in R.E.M and I had a band called The Humans with (below, live at Bush Hall, London, 2011) The month he was diagnosed with his terminal cancer I was at his house in the spare bedroom I was woken up by white man, he came in through the window. He was in a loincloth. He woke me up and he said “I’ve come to teach you how to die. It's like peeling off the layers of an onion. When you die you will go through a process where each layer of your life comes off and the purity of your soul is all that's left.” I woke up and I thought what the f*** was that about? I told Bill and he was then diagnosed with terminal bowel cancer. It freaked Bill out because I don't think he believed in the afterlife. I've realised now that I could pick up the energy of the shaman but Bill couldn't and the lesson was for Bill. So sometimes you meet these experiences because they're lessons, which is why I've just told you that story With me - I was 14. My sister, my father and I always had very bad poltergeist experiences, which freaked my mother out. My mother used to lock herself in a room at night because she didn't want to hear what was going on. My sister, who's eight years older than me, was training at Dudley Road Hospital in Birmingham They trained the nurses back then by putting them in the terminal cancer wards. My sister was emotionally destroyed by this but it made her very strong. She would come home in tears because her favourite patient would have passed away One night all chaos broke out in the house when my sister was woken up because the duvet was flying around the room. Then my father was woken up because his duvet was flying around the room. And my bedroom door was slamming. We went through a period of about four years where the house was like this. We’d experience things like the wallpaper just flying off the walls, soaking wet My mother felt that it was I was the nucleus because I'd never been christened. So I then went into religious education and I was confirmed by the Archbishop of Canterbury. I was locked away for three weeks until I was christened and confirmed. And then slowly - I wouldn't say it stopped - it became under control

When I was about 14, I had something that would be explained as a dream, but it's the most tangible thing I've ever experienced in my life. I've had this experience four times and I yearn for this experience. Because it's as if the layers were taken off me and the true part of me was taken out to be taught something. You read about this a lot. A lot of people have had this experience. It's part of a culture. It's a cultural, mythological, repeating experience throughout time I woke up and at the end of the bed was about a nine foot tall silver man and he was standing in a breeze. Everything was moving. His hair was moving, his clothes were moving. He was incredibly thin. He was dressed in long gowns. He put his hands out and he said “come with me” I lifted out of my body and he took my hand. We travelled right through the window and we kept travelling. The stars was zipping by. Zip zip zip zip! We suddenly stopped at a gas nebulae. We went into the gas nebulae, and there were these huge, colourful spheres. The most beautiful colours I've ever seen. They passed through each other and as they did they made different notes Within this space was a monolithic building. Absolutely monolithic, three towers. I don't know why that was there. But I do know that the spheres were souls. And he said “this is your true self. This is your soul”. And then he brought me back, put me back into my body The next time he came I was about 15 and this is where it's really strange because I'm dyslexic. He took me out of my body exactly the same way. He took me up into the stars, but this time into the blackness amongst the stars. He gave me an equation lesson. He said “I want you to learn this equation”. And he wrote it out. There was algebra, there was Pi. There was everything. I remember thinking “why the hell are you teaching me this? I can't do maths or algebra” And then he brought me back. So skip right forward to the age of 45. He came back here to this house. He just stood at the edge of the bed and he said “are you okay?” It’s astonishing. Every time this happened, I felt more real and more in place than I do in this body

STEVE: Wow. That's amazing. Have you been around someone at the moment of death? TOYAH: Yes. My mother. It's can be a very beautiful experience if the person is willing to let go. It's very beautiful. I've been in hospices with people who've died. The nurses have the same experience. You see a transition, and you know that the consciousness is there for at least 14 hours

The nurses say “open the windows, let the soul free itself.” It's very important at that point that we accept we need to leave this body. It's like watching a mirage

STEVE: I was very close to my mother in the end. I spent many years as her carer. The last few weeks I had a hospital bed in the front room and I slept next to her and did everything that a carer does It was incredibly tough to witness the death of someone that you love so much. But at the same time, it has these aspects to it and one of them really threw me completely because my mother used to sit in a chair and watch the birds in the garden That was her favourite occupation and all the birds she liked came back on the day she died. It was really bizarre and it was noticeable. For me that was this moment where the environment in which we live connects to us on the deepest levels TOYAH: It really does. We're just not encouraged to see what's going on around us. Also the loss is tougher for you. I believe once you're in the process of going you understand what the process is. I think we are hardwired for survival in this biological body. That's our experience. Personally, I have absolutely no fear of death. I only fear how I die STEVE: I'm exactly the same. Dave Simpson wrote a book on the on the Sex Pistols. I interviewed him not long ago. In that book, there's this wonderful quote from you. You'd gone to see them at Bogarts in Birmingham in 1976 and you said “it was fantastic. I'd already dyed my hair bright pink and I was wearing bin liners because I couldn't afford clothes. I'd been ridiculed for the way I looked but I walked into the club and suddenly I wasn't alone anymore“ TOYAH: It was a tribe. I walked in and I thought “where have you all been in my life?!” I’d been making my own clothes since I was 12. By this time, I was probably 15 or 16. I'd always be ridiculed on the street for looking different. I was a hair model so I used to have different colour hair every week. And even though I was still at school I looked outlandish I walked into Bogarts and there’s 350 people who all look similar to me. Not uniform, but they have all made their own clothes and they all had different colour hair. “Oh, my goodness! Why have I never met you?” It was fabulous!

STEVE: This was the community that you were looking for? TOYAH: It very much was the community but also it sparked something quite competitive in me in that these people look really good and they look really sophisticated, some of them. I was thinking "I want to look like that. I want to take this further." None of us knew how to behave at the gig. We didn't really understand what pogoing was So we just stood there, and we're kind of ingesting what we were seeing. Johnny Rotten found us profoundly boring and kept going off stage. But we were just learning. We were eager, we were hungry. We were learning what this new movement was and it was extraordinary STEVE: You really notice it in his book that for so many artists at the famous Sex Pistols Manchester gig it was the moment that they decided they wanted to do that in some form. Their own version of that. Was that it with you? TOYAH: Yeah, exactly. I saw what looked like a pretty ramshackle performance. Full of energy, full of excitement and incredible attitude. But I saw it and I thought “I can do that. I'm going to do that. This is what I'm going to be”. It was very releasing Considering I'd come from a background where people were really accentuating that I wasn't pretty, I wasn't tall, I wasn't slim. I was never going to fit into show business. I suddenly saw how I could do it. I saw my place and that was amazing Having seen Bowie do “Ziggy Stardust” you were looking at a bird of paradise. You were looking at the most perfect, most complete human being you've ever seen. But then you looked at the Sex Pistols and they were performing as broken people and I thought “I can do it!” It was fabulous

STEVE: I always remember that era because I think it affected me such a lot. As a gay man I got beaten up by the police coming out of a gay nightclub, snogging some guy. I got beaten up by football supporters. All these events. Having different coloured hair, being a different sexuality. You also define yourself as a third gender, don't you? TOYAH: Third gender, yeah STEVE: But being different was being a target in that era. How did that make you feel? TOYAH: I'm very sorry you went through that. One of the most extraordinary experiences of me being saved ... I was walking down the King’s Road about 1977 and some football fans beat up the gay boy I was with. He was called Howard. He's a boy because he was a boy. I'm not using slang. Very beautiful boy. They beat him up and then I was protecting him. So they started to try and throw both of us through a glass window. A big sheet of glass and they were flinging us at it Derek Jarman saw this happen, because he had an exhibition at (the shop) Worlds End. He got a broken chair leg. He ran out of the exhibition, across the King's Road and started to hit the shit out of the football fans and save us. It was extraordinary! Gentle, beautiful Derek Jarman, who I've never seen be physical with anyone was beating the f***ing shit out of these footballers. He dragged us back to the exhibition and looked after us STEVE: Well, I love him even more TOYAH: Yeah, made me love him even more. I used to get laughed at. Buses in Birmingham wouldn't let me get on. A very common thing you'd hear ... “what are you? A f***ing clown?” Taxi drivers wouldn't give me a lift. But extraordinarily when I moved to London walking down Oxford Street I’d get spat at because women from other cultures just could not understand why a woman was dressed this way. They instantly thought I was a sex worker or something. They would spit at us. They'd throw dogshit at us if they could It was extraordinary because I was dressed like that and I thought "I'm really quite a nice person. I want to get to know people. I want friends. I don't want to dress like this to make enemies". That was quite a dilemma for me. The aggression was extraordinary But it also created my career because directors wanted to meet me. Directors knew that I wasn't afraid to be experimental and wasn't afraid to do different things on stage or to look, what a very beautiful actress will be called, looking demeaning or bad. It didn't scare me so it led to my career STEVE: It's the Jean du Plessis “tub of Vaseline”, isn't it? Jean had a tub of Vaseline in his prison cell and the prison guards would beat him up and he realised that this object had power. This is what pop stars are able to use. They have their objects, which can be their words, their image, their music and that is their power. And that was your power. That was probably the a moment where you realised that power

TOYAH: Absolutely. Am I a power player? I'm incredibly empathic. I don't like to hurt people. I don't like aggression. But because of my past if people try to either hurt me or be aggressive towards me, they meet a tidal wave of well practised self-survival But I really like to be part of the team and I like to be a good friend and I like to be supportive. But sometimes when I stand on a stage where you're in front of an audience who haven't specifically come to see you, like big festivals, then I can turn that power on

STEVE: I've heard you talk about stories where your anger has been incredibly excessive, if I can use that word. It's been enormous. Have you understood that over the years and been able to live with it rather than actually tried to deal with it? TOYAH: I haven't done therapy because my husband is really the greatest person I can talk to. I hope I'm a big help to him as he is to me. I don't really bottle things up. But what I’ve really enjoyed doing in a really perverse way … there are certain types of snobby literati types who will always attack me

My passive anger, violent response … I love it. I really get off on it. It gives me the deepest thrill to walk in front of them and be f***ing amazing. It really does. They don't know that they're feeding my ambition. And that probably has come from my childhood STEVE: You have had these two distinct passions in your life, acting and performing, singing and so on. How did they work at the start? Because you said you saw the Sex Pistols and that's what you wanted to be. That was it. But you were at drama school, I presume, at that time? TOYAH: Yeah, I was at drama school studying plays, dancing and stage singing. My acting career took off way before my music career, but my heart was in music and that's a youthful choice. I knew if I was going to be the musician I wanted to be I had to start as soon as possible I was spotted because to be a punk rocker back then was really rare and people were talking about this girl on the streets of Birmingham, who was dressing in her own clothes and had peacock hair And two brothers called Bicat heard about me. They're a playwright and a musical writer. They work together doing their own stage and TV plays. They ended up tracking me down and casting me in a play about a girl who wanted to be on Top Of The Pops and breaks into studios. That led to me writing two songs with a band called Bilbo Baggins for the TV filming. That led to me joining the National Theatre, which led to me being able to form a band STEVE: That was “Glitter”. Your character lusts after Midge Ure TOYAH: I'm not good in the play. I’m a rough diamond. I've never been on camera before. But by coincidence, Kate Nelligan, the actress, watched it when it broadcast three months later, and said to the superstar German film star Maximilian Schell, who was directing her at the National Theatre ... “I want that girl to play “Emma” in “Tales from the Vienna Woods”” And four weeks later I was living in London, socialising with Brenda Blethyn Warren Clarke, Elizabeth Spriggs. I was launched immediately into the glitterati of London Theatre. I had five astonishing years where angels were just throwing stardust in front of my feet. I managed to form the band and get a recording deal and build a huge audience STEVE: That was it. You were in “Jubilee”. You were in “Quadrophenia”

TOYAH: “The Tempest” (as "Miranda", below with David Meyer as "Ferdinand")

STEVE: You were in so many acting roles that gave you an enormous profile. You were clearly an absolute workaholic, weren’t you? TOYAH: I still am. Back then it was really frowned on to do both acting and singing. If an actor did a voiceover or a TV advert they would never work again in theatre. It was that bad. And theatre actors didn't talk to film actors. Film was considered the worst back then. So it was quite renaissance to do both. I'm a workaholic and you've got to remember I supporting my parents financially Making money and being creative were almost equal because making money represented survival for my family. I loved every bit of work I ever did. I really loved it. I love the closed environment of the film set. I really did like working at the Royal Court and the ICA and those highly prestigious theatres. I loved being on stage with a mad punk audience pogoing away. I felt really lucky STEVE: Are you someone who was really concentrating on developing yourself and your knowledge of the things that you were involved in? Or were you just living? TOYAH: Oh, no, I was in full development, and I still am. Part of that is because of my physicality. I always have to work on my physicality. I always have to keep my legs working. That's just something to do with the journey from my brain to my legs. So I'm always working on my physicality. I will never ever get to a stage where I'm as physically controlled as someone like, let's say, Madonna or Lizzo or anyone that uses dance in their their musical interpretation - because I do have disability Also with my memory, I have a very strange memory. You could stand outside a door in London and I'll tell you the address. I have visual memory. It’s absolutely bizarre! I can tell you exactly what I was wearing 12 months ago to the day, and I can tell you that right up until I was about 15 But tell me your name, or tell me a fact in literature … (that) I will have to keep relearning, relearning, relearning. For me, when I'm writing songs, I have to keep relearning the eighth notes A, B, C, D, E, F, G. There's something not in that neural journey going on So I have phenomenal experiences and knowledge of some things and on the basics I am permanently frustrated that I cannot remember faces and names. I know this so I can work with it and I can do the exercises I need to do to keep the neural connections. But I will always be learning and that's because of how my body is STEVE: So you're in London, you've been involved in these amazing stage plays and in these films and in your heart is still music. How did the music part then come about? TOYAH: It was tough. I put the toughness down to my physicality. When record companies came to see a female singer, they wanted to lust after her. When I made “Quadrophenia” I made a conscious effort to lose about three stone in weight and change my appearance. That was because up until that point I'd had two years of us not being signed to a record label We had enough for a set, we were doing regular touring, we were drawing 2000 kids into pubs they couldn't fit in. They were surrounding pubs yet we were still not being signed. I made a very physical decision that I was going to have to change my appearance so people saw me differently. During “Quadrophenia” I was also making (the TV series) “Quartermass” (below as "Sal" with Ralph Arliss as "Kickalong") with Sir John Mills so I was working day and night I just took a lot of speed and I lost three stone. That helped me readdress how the industry saw me because by the time I started gigging again, after making “Quadrophenia”, I was a completely physically different person

STEVE: It also made you ill TOYAH: I was so ill! I think the longest I've ever been without sleep was 10 days and the longest I've ever been without food and water was three days. I was on a two week shoot of “Quadrophenia” while working at Wembley Stadium on “Quatermass” My agent didn't put two and two together that I was actually working 24 hours. So I wasn't eating and I wasn't sleeping. The makeup lady was watching me get smaller and smaller and my clothes hanging off me I had a very bad cough and she saw blood in what was coming up and she literally slammed down her brushes, grabbed my wrist and said “I'm taking you to the hospital. Now.” And she walked me the hospital and said “test this girl now!” I had pneumonia. So I was put on antibiotics and lots of things to support my lungs. I carried on working 24 hours … (laughs)

STEVE: Pneumonia ... it takes a long time to get over

TOYAH: It scars your lungs. But I just carried on. I carried on with taking speed and just working 24 hours (laughs) I love that! I absolutely love it. I love that athletes can run 24 miles. I can't do that but I can push my body to work hard STEVE: You were really in the epicentre of music at that point because you were in “Mayhem”, the warehouse. Lots of musicians were hanging around. Tell me about that and tell me how it felt, because in a sense they were already successful but you hadn't been at that point TOYAH: I was cult. I was definitely ascending. But the people that gave great reviews to most of the bands didn't review me kindly. I definitely had an audience. What made me impossible to ignore was my audience was enormous and also my output was enormous. So “Mayhem” was a British Rail warehouse (in Battersea) which we converted into a venue. We weren't supposed to. It's completely illegal A man called Keith was the main developer and keeper of it and I came in as a rent payer, investor. Aam Ant’s wife Eve was there. A music journalist from the NME, John Hurley, and his brother Kevin were there. We ran this place and it became incredibly popular Steve Strange would take it over from Fridays to Mondays for four day parties. Spandau Ballet did their first gig there. Iggy Pop, rehearsed “The Idiot” there. John Cale was there. Bowie came to visit. It very, very successful. It was grotty, it was dirty, it was cold, it was dark. It had one toilet. It was totally underground. And it ran and ran and ran. It has now been knocked down. When it was about to be knocked down there was protests that it should be preserved because of the history of it STEVE: Earlier when we talked about the Sex Pistols, you said this was your community. When people came to see you in pubs in the early days what do you think they saw you as? Was it also their community? TOYAH: Yeah. I think what they saw in me ... I was definitely fancied by the boys and girls. All that was going on, but I think they saw the underdog that made good. I was brought up within my family as an underdog and I think to a certain extent in the industry that still goes on a little bit But I think the fans that I talked to I had similar childhood experiences to you and me. People that were too scared to come out as gay. People who totally identified with my not wanting to be identified at all as a gender because it led to me being belittled. I wasn't a supermodel and I wasn't pretty and slim. My gender meant I was being undermined and criticised the way God made me So when they came to my shows I think it gave them strength to answer back. It gave them strength to believe in themselves. Believe in their instinctive internal voice, which is our true voice. Follow who and what they are meant to be and not be told to be something else by others. That's always been my message. I believe that's how I built my audience STEVE: What were you learning on the way to have the success that you had by playing these gigs? What was lacking in terms to get to the next stage? TOYAH: I've always been my worst enemy. Always. Because I would never do the obvious. There were times if I did the obvious I could have prolonged experiences. When “Anthem” came out, which was a huge album, gold, multi-seller. There was obviously six singles on that album, but we decided it would exploit the fans if we released more than two off the album If we went with four singles, we could have prolonged that success into putting me into arenas. I've never ever really gone that way. I've always gone against formulaic ways of moving, formulaic ways of writing So every album I'd have a different style. I realised that I was my own worst enemy by doing that. I can see that now, when I create, that what people want and need from me and my natural way of creating music and writing is to do it with energy. I am not a balladeer. I'm not a love song person. I'm a person that you come into the room to see to have your energy lifted. So it's taken me a long time to see, respect, trust and honour that When I was a lot younger I would just go off on tangents that confused the industry. So I'd make an album, then I'd go and do a stage play. I’d then go and do a film. I was always moving because I felt each of those communities were making me more creative. I think it did work with me, I think it's made me a more interesting artist. But I needed to learn what the industry needed at a certain level

STEVE: So what was it about Joe Bogen (the guitarist of the Toyah band, above in the middle, 1981) that you connected with and him with you? What was this symbiotic relationship in terms of writing? TOYAH: The word symbiotic is exactly what worked between us. We had a great understanding, like brother and sister. I've never laughed as much as when I was with Joel. And perhaps there’s similarities with Joel. His upbringing and my upbringing, but also how people physically responded to us. I think there were similarities. I have no idea why Joel trusted me or even liked me. No idea because we never had those kinds of in-depth conversations But we were very creative together. We were creative in a way neither of us expected to go. Joel loved jazz. I loved energy and expression and performance. I think it made us create something very unique. I think “Sheep Farming In Barnet” is one of the best albums on the planet. “Blue Meaning” is stunning. It's stunning “Anthem”. Recognised. Stunning. One album that did well but not as well as “Anthem” ... “Love Is The Law" and also “The Changeling” but “Love Is The Law”… It’s a breathtaking album! We can hear that influence in the rest of the 80s. We definitely were influential. I think with Joel and I part of it came from the fact that we laughed so much. I have a similar relationship with my current co-writer Simon Darlow. We go into a room and things happen It's a deeper experience. It's not a formulaic experience. It's to do with whatever the base chakra is. It connects. We have a bond that connects and things happen. I've been in writing situations with many great writers and just thought “what am I going to do with this? There's no chemistry” and then you find someone and the chemistry is irresistible. I think it's a deeper, psychic, animal instinct level STEVE: You said at the beginning of this interview that Robert Fripp saved you. Where were you mentally in your life when you met him? TOYAH: Before I met Robert, there was no one in my life that could explain the psychology of my relationship with my mother. So I was in a really bad place. My mother would call me a slag because I'd had three boyfriends. “You're a slag! When are you going to get married?” So I had nothing and no one protecting my identity. Joel tried. There were situations where Joel had to protect me. Nigel Glockler (above on the far left), the drummer on “Anthem”, definitely protected me. But when he left I felt that my world had gone because I was totally alone I was living in a situation where I was in permanent fear. Joel did what he could to protect me and Robert came along. Robert had heard from the management about my living conditions and he bought me a ticket to America. He said “pack a bag, a car will be waiting around the corner and you're not going back” He just really helped me from day one. It was a violent and very unsettling time. It put my parents life's in danger. It put everyone's, who knew me, lives in danger. I stayed in America till it was safe to come back STEVE: He instantly knew that you were the one, didn't he? TOYAH: Yeah, he knew immediately. He knew before he met me. He was living in New York. He said “my diary is empty. I'm going back to the UK. I'm going to meet my wife”. He knew. You may think I'm wacky and the experiences I've had … Robert is exactly the same. He's exactly the same. He's had the same psychic and spiritual experiences STEVE: So if he saved you ... did you save him? TOYAH: That's a question only he can answer. I think I'm a handful for him. I think the way Robert looks on it is I'm his spiritual work. Because Robert comes from a background where you work on things that make you uncomfortable. You work on things that you disagree with. I think I'm his spiritual work. But you'd have to ask him that question

STEVE: This year you're also going to be playing at the Isle of Wight TOYAH: We're doing everything this year! STEVE: It’s amazing but the Isle Of Wight is a big one! TOYAH: There’s an even bigger one … You can't broadcast this. Do you edit any of this? STEVE: No. Tell me afterwards TOYAH: We’re doing the biggest STEVE: Oh, well, I've got it already (they both laugh) TOYAH: (It has) not been announced yet STEVE: Oh, wow! TOYAH: Believe me, to be invited back to the Isle of Wight ... because I played it last year (above) and it changed my career. We were broadcast on Sky Arts. It changed everything. It was a magical performance. The camerawork was fantastic. The audience were rammed! We were in the big top, which takes a good 8000 ... you can see them rammed all the way outside! It was a magical day and we've been invited back STEVE: You said also during the interview that the critics would be very mean to you over the years TOYAH: Well, they tried. There's certain types that are just mean and victimise anyway, but I've won a lot of critics over STEVE: You mentioned the Isle of Wight gig last year. Do you feel that all that past has been overcome and you're now seen in the way that you should be seen as someone who was really responsible for the way of the 80s in so many ways? Musically, visually, your attitude, the third gender power and so on. Do you feel that you are now at the point where that respect and that love has finally really showed itself in a grown-up way? TOYAH: It's lovely to be acknowledged. There's definitely a sense of relief in certain areas. A lot of very powerful female writers have picked up on my career journey. The Guardian has been remarkable to me in the last three years Robert and I now have another hurdle that both of us have to face and that is we're being seen working together. Our social media, “Sunday Lunch” and “Upbeat Moments” are phenomenally popular and are really well loved. But we now want to bring to the stage a perfect rock show I think that this year is going to be us having to prove ourselves again in many ways, even though both of us are at the height of our artistry. I never feel settled. I never feel I've arrived. I've never feel I've been accepted but that doesn't matter, because as an actress those are wonderful things to have in the back of your head while you're creating a character It would be lovely to just feel “oh, I've made it“ but I don't feel that and I'm not sure I ever will. People acknowledge us as creative artists, and in America for the first time during lockdown and now, we're viewed as performance artists in a really respectful way. That it's very satisfying STEVE: I find it wonderful. I wish you continued success. I love your story because it's tough. It's hard and it's got these really deep moments in it that are tough to hear, actually. But it has created you. In the last few years, because the world has changed and it's opened up people are more much aware ... I think this is the era, in a sense, where you are now allowed, finally, to be Toyah. You've been a big part of my life and I just want to thank you for your creative contribution to our culture because it's been massive. And you're also a lovely person (laughs) TOYAH: Thank you, Steve. Thank you so much. What I will say is love was always there. But love and hate are two very close partners. I think sometimes people just love you in the wrong way When I’ve experienced violence in my life it's because of jealousy from someone else. Or with my parents they just didn't know how to love but they believed they were loving me. That's where forgiveness comes from

You can watch the interview HERE

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TOYAHZINE BY LAURA MARSH 23.4.1981

This is an interview by Laura Marsh, who published five issues of the fanzine in 1980 - 81

Download the interview as a PDF here

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A LIFE IN THE DAY OF ...

Sunday Times Magazine 2.11.1980

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THE LATE EDITION, E4 WITH MARCUS BRIGSTOCKE 24.3.2005

MARCUS: The fabulously taut Toyah Willcox! TOYAH: Fabulously taut, eh? MARCUS: The fabulousty taut Toyah Willcox and I don't mean your education (Toyah laughs) You look fantastic! TOYAH: Thank you very much. I should hope after that amount of money MARCUS: How much did it cost? TOYAH: 11,000 Euros. So at the point of exchange, it was about £7500 MARCUS: Money well spent! TOYAH: I think so MARCUS: Yeah. And you've written a book which is moving and scary and at points a sickening account. It's very graphic about exactly what you went through

TOYAH: I hope to put people off as much as tell people what goes on. There's some women you will never stop having it done like me, but I hope that the book actually puts the weaklings off. It takes a bit of kind of mettle to go through with it MARCUS: There are some who would say it takes more mettle not to change how you look TOYAH: Bollocks! (the audience laughs) MARCUS: Fair enough. Why bollocks? TOYAH: Because I think sometimes women – and I’m talking from a woman's point of view - and I know men to this ... look at Dale Winton, obviously MARCUS: Not for too long (the audience laughs) Those lights bouncing off that brighter colour, you can actually damage the retina

TOYAH: Sometimes you do it for yourself. It is a selfish act sometimes and I did it because I wanted to do something. Having a facelift doesn't stop you ageing, you're going to carry on ageing. Nothing will stop that but hopefully I will do it a little more attractively MARCUS: Right TOYAH: Am I boring you shitless? (Toyah and the audience laugh) MARCUS: No, not at all! In all honesty I'm trying to be delicate or I had intended to be delicate but you're talking in a far more - TOYAH: Don’t be delicate because you're a sweetheart! MARCUS: OK, can I feel behind your ear? TOYAH: (moves towards Marcus) If I can sit on your knee MARCUS: Oh my good God! (feels behind Toyah’s ear) There’s almost nothing there! TOYAH: See! It’s good work! MARCUS: I'm not going to grab it and pull TOYAH: Oh, by the way, I've had my arse done. Could you feel that? MARCUS: Yes, I could (the audience laughs) And I want to say for the record, I'm not bored now! (Toyah and the audience laugh) And if Thatcher was here he (sic) could measure things. There have been some real horror pictures, haven't there? Let's have a look at that (a photo of Jocelyn Wildenstein) TOYAH: I have to tell you about Jocelyn Wildenstein. She's one of the richest women in America and this is body dysmorphic disorder. This is when you don't see the truth of who are MARCUS: Yeah, you see, that's the thing. I think if you look at lots of the elements of her mashed face, they look OK individually. It's just when you put it all together you just think oh, my God! TOYAH: It's like Burt Reynolds and Julian Clary married together. I mean, it really is quite bizarre! MARCUS: It is a hideous mess. Let’s have a look at the next one. Joan Rivers TOYAH: Sorry, when I'm 73 I want to look like that woman

MARCUS: Yeah, that's taken a lot of surgery, hasn't it? TOYAH: Yeah, there's about three facelifts there. That's my guess MARCUS: Looks like she's got a beard coming up eventually (the audience laughs) It’s an oldie but a goodie. There are women, I think, who were very critical. I mean, Melanie Phillips who writes in The Daily Mail absolutely tore a strip off Anne Robinson when she had her face done TOYAH: And do you think Anne cares? MARCUS: I know that she does. It didn't hurt her but she was angry and she wanted to get back at Melanie TOYAH: I think if anyone gets back at anyone it’s going to be Anne because she's rich and she's powerful. But I do think a time comes when you do stand up and go "see, Melanie's kind of had a go at me, that's fantastic! I’ve arrived!" MARCUS: Has Melanie Phillips got a point at some level that unless women are allowed to grow old on screen - because you're someone who's who's very much in the public eye ... If women aren't seen to be growing older it will be impossible for them ever to grow older TOYAH: OK, I totally agree women must be allowed to grow old on screen and it's been an actress's dilemma for since the TV's been going but from the age of 35 to about 50 women weren't finding jobs. Caroline Quentin has broken that mould and parts are being written for her But the biggest problem that I predict is that it's going to become about those who have the money to have the really good work and those who don't have the money to have any work at all. And it's going to be like them and and us so a huge social divide MARCUS: I think it is enormously difficult to have a career particularly in presenting if you're a woman of advancing years. I make absolutely no judgement. I've thought about surgery myself. I've got quite a long, narrow face, and I'd quite like it shortened and made more round (Toyah laughs) Whether I shall ever actually have that done I don't know. It would mean removing bone from here to here. Quite dramatic! But nonetheless, I think your surgery has made you look sensational. And I'd like to thank you very much indeed for joining me this evening. Toyah Willcox! TOYAH: Thank you! You can listen to the interview HERE

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THE DYSPRAXIC HELP 4U PODCAST WITH BILLY STANLEY 10.10.2021

BILL: Welcome to the podcast, Toyah. How are you? TOYAH: I'm really good. Thank you very much. It's nice to have some normality back in life BILL: I must start by asking when did you learn that you were dyspraxic? TOYAH: Very early. I had a very remarkable teacher when I was in infant school and it was about my second year and she realised I was very, very bright and very creative. My very first year at school when I was four and a half, we were allowed to work with colour and crayons. So when we were taught mathematics, we had different coloured bricks, which represented numbers I (was) top of the class at that. Then with using crayons - top of the class with that. And then when we moved to the following year when I was five people very quickly realised I could not pick up the normal standard training reading and the normal standard training of numbers. They were just gobbledygook to me

So I was put on phonetic writing - the “Janet and John” books I was given in phonetics and then I could immediately read. But once I was six, none of that was available to me. It was completely taken away and treated as if I was lazy, treated as if I wasn't making an effort. I think part of the problem was is the school didn't like me having special treatment. They didn't want me being singled out to be someone special. I went from being top of the class to the next 10 years being bottom of the class until I left BILLY: Did you have the support of your immediate family and friends? TOYAH: They didn't even support me when I was an international megastar! BILLY: Did you struggle to conform to social norms and the trials and tribulations of being neurodivergent and did having a personality suppressed throughout your mainstream education somehow mould you into the person you are today?

TOYAH: I think I felt very alone. But teenagers generally feel alone. School for me was tedious and it was boring. I should have been at a drama school where I would have excelled or a music school where I would have excelled. I just did not fit into the conservatism of my education. So I would say in answer to your question that I became quite insular and incredibly independent because of it because there was no one I could rely on There was no one I could go to and say, ��why can't I do this? Why don't people listen? Why don't people see me as me?” So everything I did I was told I was wrong and I was told I was being the wrong person. So no one saw me in my true natural state and my true nature. So I think it actually made me who and what I became as a star BILLY: Dyspraxics often say that they play the fool as a means of masking our differences. Do you consider yourself to have been always the master your true persona?

TOYAH: I tell you one thing that I did do was I covered up brilliantly in social situations, where I knew what was coming because of culturally where I came from. I had a bad speech impediment and at that time I had a limp because I was born with a twisted spine and pelvic dysplasia, which is all been corrected. I knew that people were going to make a joke out of me. So I knew how to cover this up. I knew how to bluff my way. When I went to my first job interview, I just lied and I'm a great actress. So I just lied and I got the job Interestingly, the director Derek Jarman, who I did two movies with, who used to come and see me sing - he said to me “Toyah, you’re still acting”, and he understood that I had to create these layers. I think the most frustrating thing that I found - it wasn't really until I met my husband at the age of 25-26 where he was so crystal clear about my cognitive issues. Up until that point, I just went with being highly individualistic and deliberately not fitting in. But I thought that was part of my personality rather than my inner internal neural pathway wiring BILLY: Given that dyspraxia is a lifelong disability, has it impacted you more throughout adulthood?

TOYAH: My my dyspraxia has got worse as I've got older. When I was younger, say from when I was born until I was about nine I had no idea I had disability. No idea. I led a perfectly normal life. I was being trained to be a junior ice skater alongside John Curry, the Olympian. I had a very normal life and then once my corrective surgeries started, I realised that this was a disability that was going to be with me on a certain level all of my life People made me aware of the limp, which I was never aware of and people made me aware of my speech impediment, which I was never aware of. I just thought I was being treated like the village idiot all the time, which is what culturally happened 55 years ago. So my dyspraxia has definitely got worse as I've got older but in lockdown I found the most incredible teacher who has a military background and he studied my movement. And by studying my movement, he was able to reverse my dyspraxia so I can now play keyboards and I can now play guitar. I've written 30 odd albums and I've never been able to play one instrument There are ways of connecting those neural pathways and he did it through physical exercise. In 2000 I did the “Dore Programme” which is highly controversial. The government have tried to sweep it under the carpet. I did this for three months and went away and wrote two books. That's all about connecting and firing the neural pathways in the front cerebellum through movement. Through spinning, through disorientation and balance

BILLY: Without the intervention of a family friend do you believe you would have gone on to achieve the career you've had? And as such did the lack of awareness and support for your respective disabilities in adolescence hold you back in some regards later in life?

TOYAH: It's a very good question. I think if people saw and accepted and realised what was going on with the relationship between my brain development and my body growing rather than giving up on me I would have had a far more advanced artistic career. No doubt about it. But I was written off very early as purely baby making material. I never had children and I think instinctively I knew I was carrying a gene that had this disability So it's such a good question, because when I was about 14, and this is just a story of complete luck, a man that ran BBC Pebble Mill had a boat next to my parent's boat down on the River Avon. He said to my parents "you know your daughter is incredibly talented. You've got to get her out of the school system and put her in drama school" and he nominated me into the Birmingham Old Rep Theatre School. I never looked back. I just excelled! I was put in the right environment. So up until the age of 14 I was never in the right environment BILLY: You had an early interest in dancing. Did you encounter any difficulties such as a lack of spacial awareness?

TOYAH: I took up dance when probably about 14. I earned my own money, I paid for my own dance classes. And again, anything to do with movement will trigger the neurons. What I didn't know back then was dehydration and the neurons not quite firing goes hand in hand. I was never given water at school. I drank one glass of water a day. Now I drink five litres of water a day. The brain cannot function in a state of dehydration, neither can your heart So I never knew this at school. We never had water in the classroom. We never had water available to us until lunchtime, and then again when we got home. So all of that is a perfect storm. When I was dancing and even still today, I think it's why I'm never still when I move my neurons - I can feel the fireing. I can feel my brain activate. You want to feel good, just move. We’re water, fat and electricity. So connect with all of that BILLY: Dyspraxics often struggle to learn new information at a rapid pace and have weak short term memory. We do however seem to have fantastic long term memories. Has this been the case for you?

TOYAH: It's a great question because I can give you two examples. I did a play in London called “Trafford Tanzi” about a female wrestler. I‘d pick the fight sequences up on first show. The fighting instructor, a judo Olympian showed me the fight sequences for this two and a half hour play. He never had to show me them again. They were there. When you give me a script, and I have a reading technique where I'm very, very slow but it’s there But give me a dance routine in a West End musical (Toyah in "Cabaret" in 1987, below) it takes me months because I need to connect the counting to the music score and I feel music as as a kind of heartbeat. Musicians feel music has 1234 1234. I don't feel music that way. And dancer’s choreography - they build dances through counting. It's hopeless for me. Hopeless. So I excel at some things and other things I have to find my own way in and that can take time

BILLY: Did you encounter any difficulties such as the lack of spacial awareness, poor balance and where you're also impeded by needing to wear a raised shoe? TOYAH: The thing is most of the time I wore a raised shoe on my right leg. My right leg has now been made the same length. 10 years ago I had surgery to make my right leg the same length. So when I wasn't wearing the raised shoe, my balance was affected and also my gait. Limp is called a gait and I had an emphasised gait. But again, I'm incredibly muscular so I can cover these things up But I think my movement is very individualistic. And it's not what I'd call feminine movement. It's strong movement. I move like a gymnast. I'm very, very strong and very supple, and that’s partly because my tendons are just too long for my joints. So I overextend but my movement is quite unique BILLY: You've had numerous operations in the past to help with your physical disabilities, unbeknownst to your fans and peers. Would you say it was a conscious decision and what impact does all this have on your dyspraxia?

TOYAH: No, I wouldn't because I managed to disguise it. So up until about the age of 30 my life was pretty normal. I'd had joints removed in my toes to stop them growing and I'd had corrective surgery on my right foot when I was 11. But after that I had a relatively normal life other than I could never wear lovely shoes and still can't because I have a club foot. When I was 30 my right hip socket wasn't formed. It was a shallow socket and it developed a very bad abscess when I was 40 that hollowed out the thigh. There was a huge hole there For 21 years I had to live with that and that was done through pain control. So when I say pain control, that's physiotherapy, it's not drugs. I was allowed to carry Co-Codamol (painkiller) if I needed it, but I managed not to use it. They didn't want to do the surgery on me until the prosthetics were fully developed So when I was 51, a very wonderful incredible surgeon called Richard Villar designed a prosthetic for me. It's very, very tiny. He took the hip joint out and put in the metal plate into my hip, pelvis, and then this tiny prosthetic goes in to the hole that the cysts formed. I couldn't walk for three months. I was off my my legs for three months while bone grew around that. And I've had a normal life since

So from the age of 30 until I was 50 I was under pain control management. That was all done through extreme muscle. I tell everyone this, if you've got joint problem problems you've got to be built like Arnold Schwarzenegger, because this muscle helps that tendon function through a dysfunctional joint. Then you can support that joint and you could probably live with it for your whole lifetime. By the time Richard Villar did my right hip he said the whole area had completely disintegrated. He had no idea how I coped and I said “I've just had to do this all my life. I know how to mask” So I found - once I had my hip replacement at 51, I'm now 63 - my dyspraxia became worse because my brain had to adjust to a different leg length so I became clumsier. And I'm now dealing with that. It has actually taken about eight years to deal with it BILLY: Is there anything in particular that you've struggled with when it comes to masking?

TOYAH: You see it in the hands. It's a classic sign that when I'm acting and when I'm expressing my hands kind of freeze. So now I've trained my hands so you will often see me - I will not spread my fingers. I've taught myself not to do that. So my hands are always closed fingers now BILLY: I strongly believe that through dedication and perseverance one can overcome adversity to achieve success. Was there ever a time when you felt like giving up? TOYAH: I'm not someone who gives up because in my upbringing, even though my family felt they loved me, it was so unnutritious on my soul, my body and my heart. I was brought up to be a failure, everyone reflected back at me failure. So because of that I'm the toughest fighter you will ever meet. I just don't give up, I will fight to the death whatever the subject matter is. And that's partly my upbringing, because I was always told I was going to fail So when I reached 30, I had to disguise the pain. That was the biggest thing, disguising the pain, so no one knew and I think there must have been times when people wondered why I was tense rather than relaxed. It's as simple as that. I was always masking pain. There are certain things and I can only explain this through a performance. I was playing “Puck” in “Midsummer Night's Dream” about 1994 (above). So I would have been about 36 and I masked the pain by working on skateboards, roller skates and a penny-farthing so I didn't have to run

So I could get my sweeping movements on stage by using the skateboard as a body board. So I would run in the wings, jump onto the skateboard onto my body and curve around on the stage and then stand and deliver my lines. That was a way of masking pain because I knew the pain built I could do shows but by the end of the show the pain would be building to intolerable. When I did “Calamity Jane” in the West End, which was incredibly physical - the irony of that was because it was so physical I didn't experience any pain in the whole year because I was so physically tuned up and that helped. Except on one night and an actor dropped me and it did my back in. But that’s the only time I've ever had an injury So it's been a very interesting journey and I would say to people you just don't give up. You just have to keep learning any kind of mild physical disability, which is how I say I am. Just keep working with it. You don't give up because everyone around you is is telling you to give up. You just don't BILLY: There is a common misconception in society that dyspraxia affects intellectual ability. We generally struggle to absorb information that has no bearing on our intelligence overall

TOYAH: I'm a complete sponge. I'm ahead of everyone in the room, which I think is what confuses people so much. I'm very, very small. I have a slight lisp. I have a slight gait. My malatropisms are frequent in every sentence I say, but I'm ahead of everyone. So I think it's this super intelligence. It has absolutely nothing to do with the condition in your body. You're still intelligent. I read every newspaper every morning within an hour and maintain that information. But there are certain areas that I can't maintain information on I would never make a politician because it just makes no sense to me what politicians do. If you're not helping someone earn a living, have food on the table and be healthy you're not doing your job and as far as I can see everything politicians do is illogical and just help CEOs get big fees in big companies So when I see something illogical and there's so much in the world that isn't logical I can't work that out. It will never make sense to me. But on other levels I have super intelligence and I don't mind patting myself on the back with that. I'm ahead of everyone in the room

BILLY: How are you when it comes to reading between the lines both in your personal and professional life? TOYAH: I have to study myself all the time in mirrors. Going up for a part I have to change the way I move. I have to deal with the hands. I'm incredible at reading people. You get people that do face recognition for the police. I can read someone literally in five seconds because I’ve studied myself so much. So I'm a very good reader of personality traits BILLY: After many years as an actor and a musician touring, can you withstand the constant changes of the lineups and surroundings? Are longtime colleagues supportive of your neurodiversity and the way that you work? TOYAH: It's a good question because in the following week I'm working with three different groups. I've always kind of ended up with different bands. The Toyah band, what's fabulous about the band is we've been together for 18 years. They know how I need to learn something and they know when I can't learn something. They know the route in and we have kind of eye signals and hand signals on stage when I've lost the count. I anchor by the downbeat. Now, most musicians don't need a downbeat, they can work around that downbeat (makes a tsk tsk tsk noise) I need the boom, boom, boom, that's how I recognise music

So the Toyah band make that very easy for me. As a solo artist - it's important to me to be a solo artist because it's important to me to establish who and what I feel I am rather than what other people feel who and what I am. I'm not a person that lives by others opinions. And I think that makes some people … I'm difficult to be with for some people because I won't let people tread on me. It's all my upbringing, it's all survival. It's all how dare you tell me that my precious time isn't how I perceive it BILLY: Is it fair to say you're still fighting an uphill battle with acceptance and credibility as a neurodivergent woman in the entertainment industry? TOYAH: I’m fighting the war and I'm a woman and you've got that as well - being a woman in the music industry. There's quite a war going on all the time BILLY: I discovered via your blog on toyahwillcox.com that you are also dyslexic. As a fellow dyslexic myself, I am in awe of the fact that you've penned two books and have co-written nearly 30 albums throughout your impressive career to date. Have you ever felt like you've been at a disadvantage in comparison to your peers?

TOYAH: There are some authors I will never be able to read because they have a way of thinking that I believe is brought to them through their education and it's quite an elite education. There are some authors like Stephen King - I can pick a book up and read it in two hours. But there's other authors I have to go through with a dictionary. I have to go through each paragraph three times There is an elitism in writing and because I read the newspapers - the simpler writing techniques like The Sun and The Mail - I can read those in five minutes. If I'm going to go to The Independent and The Guardian and The Observer I'm like oh, I don't understand that. So what do they mean? Why have they said that? Three sentences later, they're saying that … I just have to go over and over and over it BILLY: Do you find putting pen to paper easy and does it play a big part in your day to day life?

TOYAH: Both books are a stream of consciousness. I don't know about you, but I think about my life like a diary. So say that's a diary (rustles some paper) Every single note of every single day is in that order in my brain right through virtually to my first memories. I could tell you what I was doing a year ago and what I was wearing, and that really freaks people out So when I'm in a situation and I was in the situation two days ago rehearsing the tour band for “Posh Pop”, which is the new album. They wanted to change an arrangement. So that in my head is like taking the ABC and just throwing it at the wall. It's literally like that. I can't hold it down. I can't sequence and I'm saying sorry, I'm having a brainstorm here I'm going to have to stop everything, write it down in its order, learn it, see it, photograph it in my brain to get the line still. So sometimes when I look at print, the print becomes a black block. Impenetrable. You're just looking at a blank block or it's like confetti firing off and I can't control the images

So reading books … I know a good writer Alice Sebold, “Lovely Bones”. That is an intellectual book. I read it in two hours, because she wrote it as a stream of consciousness. So with both of my books “Living Out Loud” and “Diary Of A Facelift” - they’re streams of consciousness. But because my consciousness is so ordered, when I write something it has that order in it BILLY: Your incredible acting career has seen you star in a cult classic film “Quadrophenia” and opposite Laurence Olivier in “The Ebony Tower”. You've also tread the boards in big West End shows and have appeared in TV shows, both as an actor and presenter. What impression did the people you've worked with leave on you? TOYAH: I’d say in “Quadrophenia” we were soul brothers and sisters, we're all the same. There was one standout, absolutely brilliant intellectual and that was Sting. He could do anything with such eloquence and brilliance, but the rest of us we were of similar mental ability and function Laurence Olivier was exceptional and I think part of this exceptionality was his generation. Seen two wars, have had to survive, gone without food, not knowing waking up every day and I think not knowing made exceptional human beings. I'm not saying it's good but Katharine Hepburn, Lord Olivier, Sir John Mills, Diana Dors, exceptional human beings. They shone

BILLY: What did it feel like working with Laurence Olivier? TOYAH: I came out of “Trafford Tanzi”, which was a massive critical success so I was pretty confident when I worked with Laurence Olivier (below, with Toyah in "The Ebony Tower") What I was aware of that he was in the latter part of his life and he wasn't well, but I absorbed him like a sponge because he had done so much and he had fought so much for what he believed in. The National Theatre was not an easy thing for him to do and then to be put into a Hollywood system when really he was passionately in love with the stage was not an easy journey for him The Hollywood system messed up his wife, Vivian Lee, and I witnessed this with Katharine Hepburn that the Hollywood system of the golden era of Hollywood was a cruel system. So I was looking at another survivor and recognised that and just was absolutely in awe of all of them. Huge respect

BILLY: You've got the same fight and spirit that those stars of yesteryear had. Does it hold you in good stead? TOYAH: I've got my limitations. My physicality gives me limitations as an actress. I was looking at people who were seen as chameleon who could be anything. So I didn't actually hold myself in the same regard as them. But I am still a fighter BILLY: In 1984, you had the honour of being invited to make a speech at the Women of the Year in the presence of Diana, Princess of Wales (above with Toyah) Your speech expressed views on how being disabled incites creativity. What was the driving force behind your speech? TOYAH: It was a huge honour, Woman Of The Year celebrations. It's so motivationally important and you think well, why in a time today but it's incredibly important. To be invited to do that was just amazing. I wanted to just say that because I've been perceived educationally as a no hoper - and even my husband Robert Fripp, one of the world's greatest guitarists - then two weeks ago, (he) said to me and my guitar teacher "Toyah is unteachable". Even he thinks I'm unteachable

I felt it was an opportunity to stand up and talk about the people I attract in my life, who seem definitely to have some form of disability. And the question is, is it disability or is it a different perception and experience? All are viable So in this speech I talked about two deaf male friends in an audience at Shaftesbury Avenue Theatre. I think 1982 or 83 where I was giving a concert and they were sign languaging the lyrics to each other. I realised they couldn't actually hear the music, but they were experiencing it. So I told this story In 1987 that's was revolutionary, we were just beginning within music theory to understand that people who are locked into their bodies but can't express themselves were still experiencing life and experiencing emotions. So this was all revolutionary and has come a long, long way since then I gave this speech and I just wanted to say that we need to see disability as these people have rights of access to everything but their disability doesn't stop them being phenomenal. So how do we use the word disability? I think we've come a long, long way in those last decades to making everything accessible and possible for everyone and that if we're educated at school, to know that we are all utterly physically unique, then we develop languages and connections no matter who and what we're connecting with It crosses boundaries, we need to cross boundaries and I think that's what that speech was about. If you read it today, I was probably using politically incorrect language but all of that is being ironed out and I'm certainly learning every day about the new language and the new acceptance and what can be said and what shouldn't be said (Watch the speech HERE)

BILLY: As a 31 year old with significant hearing difficulties I applaud you for taking a stand and making the speech that resonated experiences you'd had at the time. Every generation must play its part in spinning the wheel of change for the greater good with the best of intentions

TOYAH: Every generation must have the right to change the world for good. Every generation must do that. Our present young generation who’ve had 15 months of COVID now deserve the mantle, they deserve the right to change the world for good and it's quite an extraordinary time to be alive. I think it’ll only change if people are taught about this So when I work with my band and if a firestorm starts in my head, I tell them. I say "could you just stop talking while I sort my head out?” Because sometimes you're having a firestorm and you just need to put everything back in place and conversation can be exhausting. I just educate them about what I need Three years ago, I was in a play (as Queen Elizabeth I in "Jubilee", 2018, above) with a profoundly deaf actress. Sophie Stone, breathtaking actress and she said to us if we talk away from her she's not involved in the conversation. We had to learn to socially interact in that way to make sure we were always facing Sophie. But another thing she said that after eight hours of rehearsal, of reading sign language and doing sign language and reading lips, she was exhausted and she needed to be alone So it's all about interaction and learning and acceptance on a social and a work level. If we're not given that time, or we're not given that journey, the integration and the acceptance and the equality of it hasn't got a chance. So we need to learn this from the dyspraxics and the dyslexics and the hidden disabilities as well

BILLY: What coping strategies do you use for dyspraxia and dyslexia? Awareness of dyspraxia pales in comparison to other hidden disabilities. What do you think is the cause for this? TOYAH: It's always been a big problem for everyone in my life that I am so capable of sitting in silence for weeks on end. I've actually gone months, well, let's say a month without even uttering a word. Silence and solitude for me is as informative creatively as it is for people in a nightclub. I think part of that is I have exceptional hearing. It's a massive problem. I am three doors away from the street and I can hear people talking on the pavement outside So everyone that comes into this house who knows me is aware that my hearing is exceptional. Because of that I do get very, very tired. There's a lot of information coming in all the time. Socially I say to people, let's get together, let's have a cocktail hour. If it goes to two hours, great. But after that I'm not good company. I get very, very tired by overstimulation of being social. And it's not criticism. It is just how I’m made BILLY: During the pandemic, you and your husband Robert kept the fans entertained while uploading many short, humorous videos online, going viral and racking up billions of hits. You've evidently helped people throughout the past year to keep a smile on their faces, but how have you coped mentally as a neurodiversive person?

TOYAH: By doing exactly what you just said. I can't really do nothing. The first three weeks of lockdown I was in silence. I was meditating. I was actually praying a lot. Praying for my friends. We had a lot of people pass from cancer in that first three weeks. We lost two musicians. That first three weeks were very, very hard and then after that I realised that we were all in the same boat I wanted my husband to move and I started to teach them how to dance, which he hated. And then we started to do these crazy little films which he absolutely loathed in the beginning. But the messages coming back with “thank you, you saved my life. I'm alone in a single room apartment and I don't know what to do.” So all these messages were coming from around the world Slowly we realised that we'd hit on something that neither of us had ever touched upon before - that is our music was actually really affecting people's lives in a good way. So for me, the lockdown has been the busiest part of my life creating Toyah YouTube. But it's also kept me sane because I'm a performer and a performer needs an audience and it's as simple as that BILLY: Did it feel like you were personally letting fans down when having to cancel gigs despite it being out of your control? Did the move on to YouTube reassure your fans that all is well and normality will resume eventually?

TOYAH: Not only that. People who bought tickets didn't know when they were going to see you and people can't give up that money easily in a lockdown if they're not being furloughed, but they're out of work. You want to protect your audience, you want your audience to know that you see them, hear them and honour them. I had three tours cancelled and I wanted people to know that they hadn't lost that ticket money. So the whole of the connection through internet became vital and very, very precious BILLY: I am very much looking forward to seeing you live on tour in March 2022 TOYAH: Oh, that's fantastic! Good! We’ll know what we're doing by March. Completely new lineup, completely new sound BILLY: The “Posh Pop” tour gets underway in autumn of 2021. performing songs from the new album, hits and classics with electro acoustic band. Thank you for appearing on the The Dyspraxic Help 4U Podcast TOYAH: Thank you and thank you for understanding the process Listen to the podcast HERE

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TOYAH ON GET SET FOR SUMMER, BBC1 WITH PETER POWELL, JULY 1982

PETER: Toyah, come and join us down here if you can TOYAH: Hello! I like your microphone! PETER: Do you want to hold this? Just sit down here. Take a seat. Folks, it’s “Pop A Question”. Thank you for the 1000s of cards on Toyah’s behalf that came in to this part of the programme. And it's when we put you under the thumb TOYAH: Put to the test PETER: Yes, we got to find out all about you TOYAH: Oh no! (Peter laughs) PETER: Steven has written in from Norfolk TOYAH: (the kids next to her are restless) Be quiet there! PETER: You keep them in order (Toyah laughs) Steven says “Dear Toyah, I'd like to know where you get all your energy from?” Here she is huffing and puffing! (Toyah pretends to collapse, the audience laughs) and “how do you keep yourself so fit?”

TOYAH: It takes takes a lot of sort of determination to get up very early or go out very late at night and do lots of running PETER: You go to a gym, don't you? TOYAH: Oh, yeah, I do lots of gymnastics. I'm sort of like very supple PETER: And every time you do a tour you go and have a workout for three weeks to get yourself - TOYAH: Oh, yeah. Really have to PETER: Good for you. It's important we want to keep fit I think. Robert from London wrote “my question to Toyah is, which is more important to you - acting or singing careers? Or are they both equally important?" Thank you for the question TOYAH: (Puts on a phoney 50’s American accent) Well sincerely folks, they're both very important. I mean, they really are important to me. I love doing both of them. I only believe you should do what you love doing. You shouldn't be forced into doing something you don't want to do

PETER: Alison here (points to girl next to him) has a question for you, don’t you? Let’s take the mike over here ALISON: What was it like making “The Blue Marigold”? (above) TOYAH: I made it well over a year ago, and actually made it when “It’s A Mystery” first hit the charts. So I was very sort of happy and very up but it was a challenge because I had to age considerably. I sort of had to like - don’t laugh at me (laughs) wear these great big wigs, which is always a challenge to wear a wig sometimes because it feels like a hat PETER: (Touches Toyah’s hair) This is real, isn't it? TOYAH: This is, yeah! People think this is a wig. I know it looks like one PETER: Another question here I'd like to ask. This is Alison from Somersert. “I would like to ask Toyah if she wore outrageous clothes and had funny hair do’s when she was at school?” A lot of people wrote in about this question

TOYAH: Well, I don't want to get into trouble but basically yes. I started cutting my hair before I started wearing sort of weird clothing. I mean, teachers don't like it. I don’t think they ever will. But I think it's always very nice if you can sort of look normal for school and then come home from school and you can actually actually buy sprays to colour your hair that can wash off. And I advise kids to do that more than anything, but I was pretty outrageous at school PETER: Your look is very hyper important to your image, isn't it?

TOYAH: It's not done totally for image. It's done because that's actually how I like to look PETER: Can we do a close-up on Toyah’s eyes? They’ve changed haven’t they? Why did they change? TOYAH: Well, the new album is called “The Changeling” and the changeling means when the elfin folk snatch a human being away from society and put a fairy there. Now, I'm not saying I'm a fairy (the audience laughs) I thought the only way to sort of portray that word is to have black eyes (pretends to hit herself) Bang! PETER: Another question from Callum in Glasgow. “What inspires most of your songs, Toyah?” TOYAH: Well, (with) the new album it's been mainly dreams. I have terrible nightmares and what I do is I wake up and I write everything down. And also I've been abroad a lot in the last year. I wrote a lot of songs while I was in Hamburg and places like that, which are very inspiring PETER: That's good. Toyah, thanks for answering the questions TOYAH: Pleasure

PETER: Do you want the rest of the cards that were sent to us? TOYAH: Yeah! PETER: You can look at them and find out what people really want to know about you TOYAH: Yes, thank you! Watch the interview here HERE

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TOYAH ON HARTY BBC1 8.3.1983

TOYAH: (accidentally knocks off Russell’s notes of the table when she sits down) Sorry! (laughs) RUSSELL HARTY: That’s the notes down then. Not only are the audience carried away - my notes are carried away as well TOYAH: Sorry about that RUSSELL: You’ve had to train very hard in this play called “Trafford Tanzi”? (below, Toyah as Tanzi) TOYAH: We only had two weeks of rehearsing. So that gave us natural adrenaline to get the show ready for the public in time - RUSSELL: But I mean physically you had to train quite hard? TOYAH: Yes, I did a lot of judo. A lot of traditional wrestling, a lot of weightlifting (shows her biceps, laughs) Which I'm stuck with now RUSSELL: For the rest of your life (A clip of “Trafford Tanzi” plays) There you are wrestling with - TOYAH: Ah! Neil McCaul. He played my husband. He was wonderful! I mean he could fight with his mouth whereas I fought with my fists

RUSSELL: Was this (Toyah’s pulling and throwing Neil) your husband until the end of the show? TOYAH: No, not at all- RUSSELL: But the way you’re behaving I’m not all surprised at all TOYAH: But he was brilliant -

RUSSELL: It's a story of what? A battered baby? TOYAH: It's about a battered baby brought up in the north with the traditions of being a woman. The fact that women are taught to take the step behind and not want to work, only want to get married and have babies. Within the play Tanzi gets married to a husband that's unfaithful to her So to prove herself, her pride and everything, she takes up wrestling and in a heated argument with her husband says “right, I'll take you on!”. And she takes him on. It's a 20 minute fight and she ends up KO’ing him (knocking him out) RUSSELL: You’ve now landed with these rock hard things for the rest of your life (touches Toyah’s arm) If you let them go they’ll … (the audience and Toyah laugh) ... the flab will fall down and you'll have very big fat hands won’t you? TOYAH: Well, I found what’s very healthy is I do 50 press ups a morning and if I've still got it in me I’ll do 60 before I go to bed RUSSELL: Were you ever fat? TOYAH: Very! When I was a kid I was incredibly fat RUSSELL: What did you look like? Describe yourself TOYAH: I looked like an ape (the audience laughs) RUSSELL: Did you? TOYAH: A real ape. I had very long black hair that was very, very bushy. I looked like a cavewoman. And (puts on a lisp) I talked like this, I had an exceptionally bad lisp and I walked with a wobble and I was like everybody's failure. So I had a lot to fight at RUSSELL: (talks with a lisp) I think your lisp came in quite useful (the audience laughs) through a programme called “Kick Up The 80s”. Did you see that? TOYAH: I deliberately avoided it because I like Tracey Ullman. I thought if I saw it I’ll kill her! RUSSELL: I hope we have a little piece of this because in that programme there is Tracey Ullman actually imitating your lisp (Toyah laughs)

(A clip of “Kick Up The 80s” plays) RUSSELL: That’s Miriam Margolyes and Tracy Ullman doing Toyah Willcox

TOYAH: It’s very good actually!

RUSSELL: Are you flattered or annoyed by that? TOYAH: I'm told by my father I should be flattered but in the early days, I just was genuinely insecure about it RUSSELL: And cheesed off a bit? TOYAH: But I'm not that insecure now I don’t think RUSSELL: Is there's a core of steel inside this tough lady? TOYAH: I hope not! RUSSELL: This tough exterior? (the audience laughs) TOYAH: (flirtingly) Not at the moment (giggles) RUSSELL: I mean of resolution and of ambition and the energy? TOYAH: I’m still ambitious. I'll always be ambitious. There’s so many people I want to work with. I'm very lucky with who I've worked with up to now. I've got ambitions to work with people like Spielberg. He might let me be the monster in his next movie RUSSELL: (Makes monster noises) Well, if he doesn't, you can KO him and throw him over. Now, you're going to sing us a song. A song that you've written? TOYAH: Yes, it's our latest single. It's called “The Vow” and I wrote it with my lead guitarist Joel - RUSSELL: What is its subject? TOYAH: Its subject matter is we all know our mistakes, but we never know how to correct them. And love can be so close to the destructiveness and I think within what the world is going through now and 2000 years ago, Jesus was supposed to have come down and told us, you know "get your act together" and we haven't. And “the Vow” is saying I love you I love you, but I could hurt to protect you, which is the contradiction RUSSELL: OK, “The Vow”, Toyah Willcox

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LIFE AND TIMES WITH VANESSA FELTZ BBC1, 2000

VANESSA (voiceover) : From punk rocker to Shakespearean actress, distinctive sounding singer to religious programmes presenter Toyah Willcox has had a surprisingly varied career. Toyah was born in 1958 into a middle class family in Birmingham and had a difficult start in life TOYAH: When the midwife delivered me, apparently the first thing my mother said “is everything there?” and the midwife said “yes ... but” because the right side had developed and the left hadn't so it was just overdeveloped. I had longer legs, longer arms. Clawed feet So everything was turning in like that (twists her arms) and a twisted spine, but relatively easy to deal with. I apparently went into plaster for six weeks. That was to set the spine and the legs. And then when all that came off, it hadn't worked. So it started 10 years of physiotherapy which my mother was taught to give me VANESSA: It's quite amazing to hear somebody describe themselves as non-perfect. I think most people don't even have to grapple with the concept of whether they're perfect or not. They just are

TOYAH: I wasn't aware of it until I went to school and then I became known as Hopalong. Because of the gate how I walked and also because my speech impediment was very, very bad then. I could hardly speak at all. And apparently my tongue used to hang out of my mouth, which was comical. So people were very, very cruel and it was only when I was with other children that I was aware of my imperfections. Otherwise, I was quite happy (laughs) VANESSA: What you are as a little kid, who, as you say, is not quite perfect and of course you were, as I suppose could have only been expected, quite badly bullied at school

TOYAH: I was badly bullied, but I was an incredible tomboy. I've always loathed being a girl. My fight against gender started very early. So at school I was incredibly boisterous. I was the one who was always breaking bones, always smashing my teeth I can remember, at the age of five, climbing a climbing frame in pouring rain, mud below me and tight rope walking this climbing frame. I came off it, smashed my nose, smashed my teeth and then started to play with the blood. I really was a very weird kid. And I think even though people bullied me they were slightly wary of me VANESSA (voiceover) Even at a tender age Toyah was starting to rebel against society's views of what the future held for her as a woman TOYAH: I was brought up in a time when women had expectations about their future forced upon them. And I loathe every angle of those expectations. Marriage, children. If you're lucky you could be a secretary, or you may go to university and be a doctor, but you would retire and have children and you would settle down and you'd run the house. I'd rather be dead than have any of those things

VANESSA (voiceover) 1970: Toyah’s mother was taken into hospital with a serious illness TOYAH: It was my 12th birthday. I got out of bed and no one could find her. She she wasn't in the house, which was completely unusual because she always drove me to school - otherwise I wouldn't go. And she always made us breakfast. She’d disappeared. Couldn't find her VANESSA (voiceover) Toyah’s mother feared that she was dying and didn't want the children to see her in such pain TOYAH: I got a phone call at the school. The headmistress called me into the office to tell me that my mother was possibly going to die. She'd been found hiding under my brother's bed where her bladder had burst because of a gallstone. Imagine the pain! So I wasn't allowed to visit her even though I was told that she was dying. And within the month or two months she was away I changed. I changed radically

By the time my mother got back she was unrecognisable. She'd probably gone down to about six and a half stone. Clothes were just hanging off and I walked in the house and dad came out of the kitchen and said “there's someone here to see you”. And Mum walked out and I really really wanted to hug her and I didn’t and that was the end of our relationship for a long time VANESSA: Have you hugged her since? (Toyah shakes her head) Why not?

TOYAH: Umm … Not a hugging family. There's big barriers. (Toyah’s visibly upset) But we know we love each other. (Above, Toyah with her dad Beric and brother Kim) VANESSA: So at this point punk arrives on the scene. For you it must have been a gift from heaven because it must have been all you were looking for in some kind of rebellious expression TOYAH: It was fantastic because the first time in the world I realised that wasn't alone. I went to a club, I went to “Bogarts” - this was in Birmingham and I heard that the Sex Pistols were playing. I thought never heard of them but I'll go anyway and I walked into this club and there were 300 people in this club that all looked like me VANESSA: How did you look at the time? TOYAH: I had black hair but I had green and yellow at the front and the back was all yellow. So I was very punky and I was dressing in bustbin liners and I had a little kind of Andy Pandy (a 1950's children's TV series) suit which I dyed black and I was wearing that and up until this point I'd be laughed at in the street, buses wouldn't stop for me and taxes wouldn't take me home

VANESSA: Explain the appeal of something which is so, on the face of it, unattractive and repellent TOYAH: I disagree! VANESSA: Unappealing! TOYAH: I just I thought I looked really beautiful VANESSA: Oh, you thought you looked gorgeous? TOYAH: Yeah, I thought it was the best way I could look. And up until that point I'd always wanted to look different because I felt different. My expression of punk was I wanted to show how I was feeling internally - that I didn't feel part of the norm. I didn't feel part of everyday life. So I wanted to express it. And this gave me a licence to do it and I did it with a vengeance and I felt extraordinarily beautiful What I liked about this was it made the kind of gender statements that I have been desperate to make all the time. And that was I am not a woman. I am not a man. I am a person and it works

VANESSA: It's around this time in your teens that you become involved with the Old Rep Theatre and do you start thinking "I want to be an actress" yet? Have you sort of always had that thought? TOYAH: I knew I wanted to act and sing the first time I saw "The Sound Of Music" with Julie Andrews running up that hill in that opening sequence. When I started the Birmingham Rep Theatre School I was 14. I started going Friday evenings for my dancing lessons. Saturday morning for drama I knew exactly what I wanted by then and I wouldn't be swayed. Even a visit to the careers officer when I was 15 - I sat down in the office and she said “what do you want to be?” and I said “I'm going to be an actress and I'm going to be a singer.” And she said “yes, of course” and then put some leaflets about nursing in front of me. I just left the room and I said “just remember my name because one day everyone will know it” VANESSA (voiceover) 1975: Toyah left school with one O-level and started full time at drama school and she soon got a job as a dresser to actress Sylvia Syms TOYAH: I loved it. I'm very good at being subservient in a perverse sort of way. As soon as I walked into Sylvia Sym’s dressing room on the Monday - she was on tour, she arrived at the Alexandra Theatre in Birmingham and I walked in and I said “is there anything I can do for you, Miss Syms?” and she said “oh, I was starving!” So I went off and got her a sandwich and I said “when do you like your cup of tea? And how do you like it?”

So she always had a cup of tea at the beginning of the show, in the middle of the show and then at the end, and it was absolutely fine because I had the privilege of standing in the wings watching her work, which taught me more than any theatre school could ever teach me. I loved dressing. I dressed Simon Williams, Sylvia Syms, the whole of Dad’s Army, which was a difficult experience because I was madly in love with Ian Lavender, who would not wear clothes when I was in his dressing room. So that was my first experience of lust VANESSA: There must have been something remarkable about you. I mean obviously there is because you were a dresser and suddenly you're kind of discovered. Somebody sees you and realises that you're not just going to be a dresser. You're going to be an actress

TOYAH: I was paying my way through drama school by dressing and also doing extra work. My very first day’s extra work at Pebble Mill BBC I made £12. And it was on a retro play about a 1950s rock band with Kate Nelligan starring in and all I had to do was sit at the cafe table watching the band. But little did I realise that everyone was watching me. And I was getting all the close ups in the scene even though I didn't have to talk So the next day I get a call at the theatre school from a director who'd heard about me and wanted to meet me. He was called Nick Bicât and he was trying to cast a young girl in a play. The story was this young girl wanted to appear on Top Of The Pops so badly she breaks into the studio. So Nick came to the drama school to see me and that was it. I got the part, a lead in play ("Glitter", above) VANESSA: Just like that TOYAH: Just like that VANESSA: I know the drama school kept saying “no, audition all the others” -

TOYAH: Yeah, they refused to tell Nick who I was. And they refused to let him see me singly because I wasn't the best student. And so Nick came. He knew who I was immediately. He said I just stood out in the crowd and I went down to London and auditioned but he just knew I'd got the part A clip of “Glitter” plays TOYAH: A wonderful irony from this was that when it showed on telly three months later, Kate Nelligan was watching it, not knowing who I was and that I'd been an extra that day in her play. And she said to Maximilian Schell, who was directing at the National Theatre - “that girl has to be in our play” So I was called down to the National Theatre and joined the company. I was the youngest member of the National Theatre Company in 1976 VANESSA (voiceover) Offers of work flowed thick and fast for Toyah. Derek Jarman cast her in the role of “Mad”, a pyromaniac in his punk film “Jubilee”. And in sharp contrast, she worked opposite Katharine Hepburn in the film “The Corn Is Green”

1979 was the year that Toyah played the part of “Monkey” in the film “Quadrophenia”, and on television the part of “Sal” (in "Quatermass") TOYAH: When I got “Quatermass” I was finishing off “Quadrophenia”, so I was night shooting “Quadrophenia” and day shooting “Quartermass”. So I actually got pneumonia halfway through that. Sir John Mills was in it and I was playing this kind of tribal love child who was wanting to go to another planet in a spaceship

VANESSA (voiceover) Despite her success as an actress what Toyah really wanted was to be famous for her music. She formed a band but the rock and roll lifestyle took its toll on her health TOYAH: I formed the band and I realised that if I wasn't sexually attractive to the audience, I wasn't going to be doing the band any favours VANESSA: Through your teens you did balloon and get quite potch TOYAH: Yeah. When I was 20 I was a good three stone heavier than I am now. Purely I think because I was lonely, therefore rather than doing what normal people do at night I was eating VANESSA: Was it an effort to to lose weight ultimately? TOYAH: I started taking diet pills but I've taken them recreationally. You could buy them in the bags and just you know, pop them away. And it would mean I'd go on average three days without eating, have a meal, three days about eating, have a meal

Why I'm still alive I think is a miracle. Because I was taking about five of these really strong amphetamines a day and not sleeping. Drinking an awful lot of alcohol to try and come down from it. And I went from being about 11 and a half stone - and I'm only five foot tall - to being seven stone I was just a person of extremes and I do have an addictive nature. I like my habits. I like extremes. I like danger. I'm a real adrenaline junkie. So the whole attraction of popping amphetamine and frightening living daylights out of people because I’d do the most stupid things like climb roofs, climb cranes, steal cars. (It was a) really mad time in my life VANESSA (voiceover) 1981 was the year that propelled Toyah to stardom with her first hit “It's A Mystery”. Finally her childhood dream became a reality TOYAH: It was heaven. The day before, just lounging in the bath at midday, and the phone rang and it was the record company saying “you're on Top Of The Pops tomorrow” and I said “how?! Why?!” And they said “It's A Mystery" has gone straight into the Top 40” I was like “nooo!” (pulls a face) because I hated “It’s A Mystery”

I thought it was the worst song I've ever recorded. And they said “no, it's true.” And when I turned up, at BBC Wood Lane … oh, I was just so excited! I can't tell you how wonderful it was. And in retrospect, it was probably the most boring day of my life. You just sit around in the dressing room all day and then do your song I was bullied about everything … Everyone ridiculed me for saying I wanted to sing. Here ... I had the flag and I was putting it on top of Everest for the first time. It was fantastic! (Below, performing "It's A Mystery" on Top Of The Pops 19.2.1981)

VANESSA (voiceover) In 1983 things went from strength to strength for Toyah. Her music career was booming and her fame began to escalate TOYAH: “It’s A Mystery” moved me into the league which was commercial success and being an international name. And not being able to drive down any road without seeing posters with my face on in every shop window VANESSA (voiceover) Just when she thought it couldn't get any better she was offered a part alongside Sir Laurence Olivier in a TV drama (Below, "The Ebony Tower", Toyah with co-stars Laurence Olivier, Roger Rees and Greta Scacchi) TOYAH: I wasn't in awe of working with Laurence Olivier because I'd worked with Katharine Hepburn so many years earlier, and I knew what to expect. That generation of actors has an etiquette that you must keep to. You either call them Sir or Madam or Lord Olivier. And with Lord Olivier ... we just sat and talked hour upon hour about when he formed the National Theatre, when he worked with Marilyn Monroe, when he met Joan Plowright, when he married Vivian Lee

We got on incredibly well and as for working with him, the hardest thing was that he and Katharine Hepburn worked at a different pace. Modern style of acting is much more natural, it's much more quicker, it's much more throwaway. So you had to just bear in mind that you're making those two generations meet. But it was a really fabulous film to work on. We were treated like stars VANESSA (voiceover while a clip from “The Ebony Tower” plays) Toyah had to strip off completely during some of the scenes TOYAH: As I was maturing, I wanted to be a sexier person. So part of me really wanted to do those naked scenes, yet the rest of me was aware that I was kind of kneeling, therefore my breasts weren’t going to be seen from the best point of view and my thighs weren't going to look good So it was worrying and I starved myself two months to do those scenes. But once you're actually doing it and your director has actually kindly stripped off to be naked with you, there is a kind of enjoyment about it

VANESSA (voiceover) In 1985 at a charity lunch Princess Michael of Kent introduced Toyah to rock guitarist Robert Fripp from the band King Crimson (below with Toyah) TOYAH: He approached me to do a charity album with him. So I moved down to his studio in his house near Bournemouth and worked with him and within a week he proposed! VANESSA: What made you say yes to him so very quickly? TOYAH: He is the most extraordinary human being I've ever known. He's kind, spiritual, super intelligent and does not manipulate you in any way through fear or intellectualism. He straight down the line. He's truthful, to the point of hurting but you can't help but admire someone like that. And I knew as soon as I met him that this was someone that I could take that journey with where you grow, where everything is an event. I thought this will make a really good marriage VANESSA (voiceover) And on “This Is Your Life” Toyah’s husband made his feelings for her extremely clear after hearing “Freedom”, the track they wrote together (Clip of “This Is Your Life” plays: MICHAEL PARKINSON: Robert, that music really did come from the heart ROBERT: (tearfully) I fell in love with my little wife when she sang that and I haven’t fallen out of love with her since)

VANESSA: They look like tears are the most acute love. I've never seen anything like it! (Toyah laughs) He's just sobbing at the sheer vista of you being there, isn’t he? TOYAH: He's extraordinary. He really really loves me. At the same time he’ll go go off on tour for a year and he will phone me up in tears every day telling me how much he loves me. He's an extraordinary pot of juxtapositions. He really loves me, but we see very little of each other

VANESSA: I was just going to ask you about that because this is a dynamic that fascinates everybody whoever holds fort about the subject of your marriage. Why does he have to be away so much? TOYAH: He’ll never be at home! He'll never do it VANESSA: What's he doing all the time? Why is he always away and why don't you just go with him? And why aren't you together more? What’s it all about? (Toyah laughs) TOYAH: I refuse to be a rock and roll wife. My career has always been my priority. And it's the same with him. We're nomadic, basically. We are both nomadic and the distance between us actually holds us together VANESSA: You don’t want to be separate! You want to be together! TOYAH: You do in the beginning, and I think then children come and children hold that mesh together. But we we didn't have that in the equation of our relationship VANESSA: It's not an accident that there are no children. You took the decision to be sterilised and it's what you wanted to do and yet having done it, you immediately felt, you say, robbed of your femininity

TOYAH: Yeah. Very, very odd feeling. Knowing I didn't want children, knowing I didn't want to accidentally get pregnant and go through all those decisions of whether you keep it or lose it. And there was another factor - because I don't have a full socket in the hip on the right side that can dislocate. I have to be very, very careful with dislocation So pregnancy would have meant that I'd have to spend the last three months of the pregnancy kind of in a chair or lying down. So I got sterilised. There's no problem in me making that decision, but when I woke up after the sterilisation I thought “what have I done? I've I've actually played with God's decision of who and what I am”. I felt very strange about it. Now I don't at all, but for the first year of being sterilised, I felt weird VANESSA: So no part of you now thinks, oh gosh, I wish I’d just left it to chance or happenstance?

TOYAH: (Shakes her head) I really am very, very firm in knowing that I don't want children. Obviously now I'm 42 ... I mean, I suppose I could, but I've never had those feelings or that calling never VANESSA (voiceover) In 1991 Toyah started presenting television programmes. (Back at the interview) This is yet another unexpected incarnation. By this time you've been so many people and done so many things. Classical Shakespearian actress, you've been an absolute top selling singer and suddenly you’re a TV presenter. Did you ever dream of doing something like that? TOYAH: No! Never dreamed of doing Panto either! (Vanessa laughs) What happened was I was in Los Angeles visiting Robert who was working on an album and a phone call came from England. And it was my agent and she said, “Oh, you really don't want to do this. But there's this programme that's asked you to present it” and I said, “well, actually yes, I do!”

Because I'd never done it and I wanted the experience and it was the Midlands version of “01-For London”. It was called “First Night” and I spent a year doing that. It taught me how to present, taught me how to interview. taught me how to write as a journalist, and I haven't looked back since then VANESSA (voiceover) For the next 10 years Toyah went on to present a rich variety of television and radio programmes. (Back at the interview) Nobody can say you're not a grafter, you're extremely hard working and always have been TOYAH: I love my work. I live for my work, and nothing can substitute my work. I'm very, very honest about that and my friends understand that and my husband understands that in a way that he's the same. I only get any sense of calm or satisfaction when I'm working If I'm not working, I'm almost a manic depressive. I'm just not worth knowing. But now I'm slowly moving back towards being a film actress and TV actress with doing “Barmy Aunt Boomerang”, which is a BBC children's programme (Below with Richard Madden) VANESSA: By the way my children say congratulations on your Australian accent - it’s magnificent

TOYAH: (in a thick Aussie accent) Oh, bless them sweetheart. I think that's just so kind, dear little Sheilas (Back to normal accent) I do “Aunt Boomerang”, which I based on Barry Humphries (who plays "Dame Edna Everage") (they both laugh) I just finished the feature film “Most Fertile Man In Ireland”

VANESSA: Tell me about that TOYAH: I was working in Malaysia, got a phone call - could I do a day's filming in Dublin? So I got the next plane to Dublin. Shot all my scenes in one day and a miniscule role but the pivotal role in the whole story. I play a fertility doctor who cannot have children in Northern Ireland who finds a man that is so fertile he can make sterile women pregnant. It’s a comedy (they both laugh) And there you have it. A day's filming and I'm in, really, one of the best films that will be out next year VANESSA: What do you think the future holds? How would you like it to pan out? TOYAH: How I’d like it is very different probably what it holds. I would still like to sing but it's got to be on my terms. I can't handle huge fame like that ever again. I love my independence. I love being able to walk into a supermarket and browse but I want to be a film actress, a TV actress and I want to sing and I want to write books but I know I will not be sitting at home being idle VANESSA: I have a feeling all those things will happen and more. I would not be surprised if you were suddenly an astronaut. I really wouldn't! (Toyah laughs) Toyah Willcox, thank you very much indeed TOYAH: Thank you

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TOYAH AND STING ON BBC RADIO ONE WITH ANNIE NIGHTINGALE OCTOBER 1983

This was recorded in Lyon, France 3.10.1983 and broadcast in Janury 1984 ANNIE: Before I start thought I think I'd better explain how this programme came about. It's called a logistical nightmare. Or “if”. A while back, I discovered that Toyah was ensconced in deepest France at a place called Limoges where she was making a film with Lord Olivier I also discovered that for one day, The Police would be in France, and I thought wouldn’t it be nice to bring Toyah and Sting together again, particularly as they’d started out as relatively unknown actors in the film "Quadrophenia" The Police were going to be in Lyon. If you look at your average map of France, Lyon is only about an inch from the Limoges. So, no problem, I thought. Well, this is where the “ifs” really began Sting, I discovered, would be able to meet up with Toyah if the studio in Lyon was not too far from the airport and also if it was not too far from the Palais des Sports where he was playing that night

Toyah would be able to fly to Lyon if her filming schedule allowed her to leave Limoges to catch the one evening flight to Lyon if that arrived in time for her to meet up with Sting Well, with nothing further resolved I went off early on Monday morning on a wing and a prayer to Lyon. I spent all day chasing round the place, managed to lose Toyah at the airport and in the process despairing that I won't ever see her again I made my way to the Palais des Sports As I arrived here sitting in a car right in front of me was a very bewildered looking young lady with bright red hair. It was Toyah. The Police were about to go on stage and this is what happened afterwards ANNIE: It was a very strange sensation having Toyah and yourself within a few feet of each other. Toyah watching you on stage TOYAH: I was having a bop! ANNIE: Yeah and I just wondered how you, as a performer, react watching somebody else TOYAH: I was jealous (giggles)

ANNIE: Of what? TOYAH: Well, I haven't performed on stage for almost a year now. Not with the band. The stage crew and the band's whole attitude on stage. I thought it was wonderful ANNIE: It was a lovely show tonight. I mean, I thought oh, God I hope I come tomorrow TOYAH: Your stage crew are wonderful! They were so there! I love the guy who was passing your your basses and then went on and played himself. I mean, what an ideal man STING: He knows all my bass parts. In fact, when I broke my fingers - ANNIE: That was in Edinburgh. Yeah, I remember - STING: My roadie came on and did the whole set. He knows every nuance of my – he’s watched me for five years ANNIE: He's really been there … Is that Danny or Geoff? I can never remember - STING: It’s Danny. And Geoff did the same when Stuart was sick. We did a concert in France. The drum roadie played the gig - (Annie and Toyah talk at the same time)

ANNIE: I think that's a great compliment to you too that they’ve studied- STING: Thank God they don’t sing. I’d be out of a job - ANNIE: Seriously, the reason that I have brought you two together under an incredibly difficult - STING: Sounds like a marriage ceremony! (Toyah giggles)

ANNIE: It does, doesn’t it? (Sting sings the first line of "Here Comes The Bride") Your film careers actually took off at the same time in the same movie called “Quadrophenia” (above) Now Toyah, first of all, I want to know what did you think of him when you first met him? TOYAH: Sting was the person everyone had a crush on. Not me of course. But all the young girls sort of idolised Sting and there was a guy called Phil Daniels playing the lead, who sort of had to really fight in real life for the women to - not that I'm putting him down, anyone down, but that's what I remember most about Sting and of course the band was just taking off. His band. So he did nothing but talk about it the whole time (makes a snoring sound) STING: Yeah . . . I was really boring TOYAH: No - he wasn't at all! ANNIE: I can remember you telling me that you thought you were actually too old for the part when your auditioned for it

STING: I thought that. My agent said "look, they've seen everybody in the whole of England for the part in "Quadrophenia". Why don't you go?" And I said nah . . . I'm washing me hair . . . (they all laugh) And she said "look, go! " I said I’m too old. It’s all kids! I was about 24 (laughs) But I went anyway and I met the director, who was a Geordie, and I got on with Franc Roddam and I got the part ANNIE: What did you think of Toyah? STING: Well, it was funny for me because everyone on the film had actually acted before and I think Toyah was probably the most experienced of that bunch. Is that true? TOYAH: Yes, most experienced yet at the same time I think I felt very outside because I'd spent a lot of time concentrating on on my musical career. So at the time of doing "Quadrophenia" I hadn't acted for some time I don't think STING: But you had acted? TOYAH: Yes, I had acted. Well, I’d done the National and I did “The Corn Is Green” with (puts on an American accent) Kathy Hepburn -

ANNIE: Kathy Hepburn. I love that - STING: Well, I hadn’t even been in a school play - ANNIE: Hadn’t you? STING: No ANNIE: Were you very paranoid in those days about it? STING: I was pulling a fast one as far as I was concerned. I told Franc Roddam that I've been at the National, the Royal Shakespeare Company … (Toyah laughs) ANNIE: (in a newscaster voice) Sting exposed as a liar! Last confession! STING: I was poor. So I was very wary of the whole cast, which was a good thing because I was supposed to be outside of them. Sort of an alien they all kind of looked up to. So in a way it was useful that I felt a bit different TOYAH: I never for one moment thought you're older than us

STING: Didn’t you? TOYAH: No, not at all STING: I'm not that much older than you TOYAH: I was going to say! (giggles) ANNIE: Isn’t it as well to do with creating a kind of a positive thing? Him saying well, I thought it was a good thing being this alien character. Isn't it turning perhaps a negative situation into something positive? TOYAH: You’ve always got to think positively but it’s as Sting said - it's a question of pulling the fast ones. If you can pull your lies off - ANNIE: Have you conned - TOYAH: Yeah of course I have! ANNIE: Go on, tell us one

TOYAH: The whole time I lie in interviews to start with. Especially when I start getting bored. You know when you've got like a whole day of interviews and you get to the eighth one and you start lying. It's the only thing to do. But yes, where have I lied my way in? I think I did it at the National a bit. I had to lie to gain respect - ANNIE: What did you say? TOYAH: Because I was such a punk rocker that I had to con respectability out of people. I think I lied about my background - ANNIE: What sort of background - TOYAH: I remember Maximilian Schell was directing it, and he couldn't talk very good English at the time anyway, so I just lied to him that was very nice person, really ANNIE: Now, the other interesting thing is that you both worked with Mr and Mrs Olivier. In fact, that whole reason why Toyah is in this part of France, actually - we're in Lyon, but you're visiting from Limoges, because you've been making a movie with Sir Laurence Olivier (below with Toyah on the set of the movie). That is “The Ebony Tower.” Have you read that book, Sting? It’s John Fowles, who I think is a wonderful writer STING: I’ve read everything he's written. I like his early stuff better than the latest book, which is awful

ANNIE: I started reading it about three years ago and at the time didn't think of it as a possible movie, but now I can't see anybody else but Olivier playing a part of this old rue artiste TOYAH: He’s brilliant. I mean, he plays a real bastard and he's brilliant. But I love people that are bastards anyway - ANNIE: In real life? TOYAH: No, he's not a bastard in real life! ANNIE: No, I mean particularly - TOYAH: If I don't have to live near them but he's very good. I mean, he's stunning. I don't know what Joan (Plowright, Olivier's 3rd wife) was like to work with. He is certainly wonderful . . .

ANNIE: Miss Plowright or Lady Olivier was of course your co-star in “Brimstone and Treacle”. I thought she was wonderful in it. Was she an inspiration to you? STING: It was a very good experience for me because up till then I've done small parts in movies. But I really had to jump into the first division. I mean Denholm Elliott and Joan Plowright have made hundreds of movies and they've had 1000s of stage performances. And I had to play with them in a three cornered fight. So I really had to get up to their standard and the thing about great actors is, they give a lot The less good actors don't give you anything, but a really great actor will because it's, I think, it's about give and take. And they just gave me so much and they gave me so much confidence and so much help. Not by pointing things out all the time but just by being humane and human. And I just learned so much from them both (A clip of “Brimstone And Treacle” plays) ANNIE: Are you nervous when you're acting, Sting? STING: I'm still very much a novice. Yeah, I mean, I've made five movies now

ANNIE: It sounds quite a lot really - STING: Well, considering most actors learn their craft in the relative privacy of the repertory theatre and they do a play every night - TOYAH: Have you done any theatre yet? STING: No ANNIE: Would you like to? STING: No! (they all laugh and talk at the same time) TOYAH: The only thing that caught me off at one point during “The Ebony Tower” was you’ve got to pull your socks up to work with people like the Oliviers. You just can't get away with it. You can't bluff your way through that kind of acting. I thought my God! I've got to really work if I do this film and it's lovely. It's such a demanding thing to do ANNIE: Don’t you think it actually drags - TOYAH: It emotionally pulls you apart, which is what every actor and actress needs and it just stretches you but beyond every limit. It's beautiful

ANNIE: (to Sting) Why are you so anti doing theatre? STING: I was only joking. It was an ironic no ANNIE: I know. I remember reading something. You bumped into my old mate, Adam Faith (and he) told you you ought to do that, right? STING: Toyah and I are in a similar situation and that we've had parallel careers and we're lucky. But we've still got to make a big leap and many people will take you seriously as a musician or they'll take you seriously as an actor. But rarely will they take you seriously as something in between. You have to make the jump -

ANNIE: You're like a geometric pattern because you’ve both approached it from the opposite direction, haven’t you? Because you were more established as an actress, Toyah, before the music TOYAH: Yeah ANNIE: And Sting vice versa. So it's a very fascinating situation. How's it going to happen? How are you going to do it? STING: Bit by bit. You have to chip away at people's preconceptions and misconceptions about you. I think you don't have to be intelligent to be a rock and roller. You don't need to be intelligent to be a good rock and roller even - TOYAH: Does help though - STING: No TOYAH: Why? STING: Because some of the most stupid people that ever existed were really good at rock and roll ANNIE: Dare you say who you mean? (Toyah laughs) STING: No, of course I don’t. I don’t need to. But then again - ANNIE: I don't see how honestly you can substantiate that because I would think -

TOYAH: You’ve got to have an ounce of brains - STING: One of the thickest people I ever met was (puts his hand over his mouth and mumbles) TOYAH: You’re really limiting the names now! (giggles) ANNIE: I knew it would get bitchy! I knew it would! TOYAH: The great thing is that I find that if one area gets successful, you start to build the other area up. I, just within England, had to slow the band down at one point so that's when I went onstage with “Trafford Tanzi” (below) and started getting me as a person back together again because I found that the ridiculous success I had in England made me forget who I was

ANNIE: (To Sting) I must talk to you about “Synchronicity” – not the album so much as the word and how much it means - STING: Synchronicity was a term devised by Carl Jung, who is a Swiss psychoanalyst and he believed that there was a pattern to life that was perhaps larger than most of us can see. And so he collected together a series of coincidence. Lists of coincidental phenomena, great long scientific graphs and all kinds of things. Synchronicity is about a coincidence or two events that are connected symbolically but not causally ANNIE: Acausally, yeah STING: For example, in my song “Synchronicity”, there are two parallel stories. One story is about a man who's going nuts with this suburban hell. And the other story parallel to that is the growth of a monster in a lake somewhere in Scotland The monster comes out of the lake as demands and anxieties and frustration grows, so he becomes pathologically dangerous when the monster comes out ... and I’m using all these hand gestures on radio (chuckles) And that’s what synchronicity is. It’s two things that are connected ANNIE: What attracted you to that?

STING: I think it’s a fascinating idea. There's a lot of coincidence in my life, a lot of kind of fate takes a hand. It's an interesting idea ANNIE: Well, it's a new word to a lot of people but ever since it's been sort of put over via the record it's amazing how you start linking things up and thinking well, that’s strange. But then you think well, which has come first? Was it always there but you used to call it coincidence STING: Well, it’s a syncronitic event tonight. We're a day off but October the second, which is my birthday and it was yesterday … 1977 is when we were doing "Quadrophenia" (below, Toyah just behind Sting on the left) TOYAH: Oh really?! STING: And my birthday was also the day that I flew from Brighton, where we were shooting the film to Manchester to do the Old Grey Whistle Test, which was our first television appearance I think. And I was going to use two singers and I thought I'll use Toyah Willcox, who's in the film and another girl who was also part of the film - TOYAH: Tammy Jacobs

STING: Was that Tammy? So I rehearsed them the day before. And she (Toyah) was going to be in it. But then it all fell through. It was a very strange day. I sprayed my eyes with metallic paint and I was blinded for about an hour

ANNIE: That was the first time we ever met as well. That is . . . you see really . . . OK! I believe ! I believe! I always remember that bit about Whistle Test but I didn't know about Toyah. That is extraordinary STING: (To Toyah) You could have been in The Police (Toyah laughs) ANNIE: Oh, how do you feel about that Toyah? TOYAH: I’ve got to say I remember at the time I was so excited for you doing your Whistle Test and everything. I didn't for one minute think about me being in The Police. I was genuinely really pleased for you till you came back and said you’d blinded yourself. You said it was a bit of a nightmare ANNIE: Quite an interesting day STING: So that was my birthday ANNIE: I think it was 78’ but let's - STING: Was it?

ANNIE: There must have been other instances too which have aroused your interest in this business STING: Oh, loads. All the time. I think your career is - if it's not circular it's like spiralling up. You keep turning around and around and higher and higher evolutions and you meet people on the same sort of path. Bit like success. I suppose you meet them on the way down as well (makes a sad noise) TOYAH: It’s nice to think it’s a spiral - I just keep thinking (about) the ladder where you can only go rung at a time. Whereas if it's spiralling things can go up or down either way without you quite noticing. It's a nice image. I’ll forget that and use that one ANNIE: Have either of you ever worried about - because you’ve both spiralled up so far very, very successfully. Are either of you worried about spiralling down? TOYAH: Yeah. That's what keeps you going, really. Does for me anyway. My ambition is powered on never wanting to slow down or stop working, ever. And when I get days off I get the paranoia so I get . . . oh God, I can't survive anymore. Lack of success means no work. I’d go and scrub someone's floor, just something to do if I had a day off. I’d go mad! STING: Yeah . . . I scrub a lot of floors

ANNIE: You've admitted lots of times, Sting, that you are very ambitious. Is it getting stronger or has it slowed down or is it on an even keel now? STING: I think what I'm rehearsing for, practising for, is the ability to walk away from it in fact. I'd like one day to say I've had enough of this. I’d like to do something else TOYAH: It’s very hard to walk away from it - STING: It’s very hard to walk away but I think you have to prepare for it because there's a moment in your career when . . . you can't go up and you can't stay still TOYAH: But you can go sideways STING: Yeah, alright. Sideways . . . but then who might want to? I might sort of walk away TOYAH: See, when I feel I can't face the music industry anymore I go into the acting and vice versa. I can't face the acting anymore and I go bounce off the music wall. It's just like a ball you’re bouncing off different walls the whole time. But I could never walk away. I'd like to one day say right, I'm content and I'm just going to settle down and enjoy life

ANNIE: Could you enjoy life without doing what you're doing? TOYAH: No. I've decided quite recently that I'm going to have a kid before I'm 30. I think that's very important STING: I’ll give you a hand (they all laugh, Toyah is dying with giggles) (puts on a silly voice) It’s a talent I seem to have ANNIE: (laughing) Anyway, you both write songs and Toyah you've been saying to me that with your latest album - having established a lot of imagery in the past and your songs in the past - that with “The Vow” for instance, you're trying to change all that TOYAH: I'm trying to learn to write directly and simply whereas I've been using images to hide behind and also images - you can take an image and it will mean something to you and something totally different to someone else. And you can always use that as an excuse. Oh, make your own meaning up out of it With this new album “Love Is The Law” I've tried to work it from basic emotions, which the most basic of all really is love and hate and that's what I’ve based the whole album on, which has been hard for me because that's the subject I've always tried to avoid

ANNIE: Your kind of imagery has been very, very strong in the past. Sting’s has been - sometimes you write very directly. I feel I know what “Wrapped Around Your Finger” is exactly and and there's four lines in that which are absolutely beautiful - which I listened to over and over again. “Devil in the deep blue sea” etc which I think works very well. You seem to communicate very clearly what you're on about but is that just me thinking that I understand? Do you want people to know what you actually meant? STING: I think I wrote two kinds of songs. One is very simple. It's almost a tonal code. It's very easy to understand. And another type of song, which is deliberately … intricate and difficult. And you have to work hard to hear what the words are and work out what they mean. I think an audience has to be implicated. It needs to be drawn into the mystery. But sometimes, I like to write very directly (Can’t Stand Losing You plays)

ANNIE: Well that’s pretty direct in its meaning - one of the very early Police hits “Can't Stand Losing You”. But I think it takes immense bravery to write about real emotions TOYAH: Immense understanding. It depends how selfish you are really. When you get down to real emotions . . . I didn't feel I had any but they’re slowly coming out is I'm starting to mature, I feel. And my … what is it? ... Inhibitions are breaking down very fast, and therefore I can open up and be a book that has - ANNIE: That’s exactly what I meant. As I say, I feel that often, Sting, that your songs are like an open book. But maybe they're not . . . STING: What - do you think I'm being too confessional? ANNIE: Not too confessional. I don't think anybody can be. As I say it takes tremendous courage to do that. Because you’re really like baring your soul to everybody and say “this is how I feel!”

TOYAH: There's one of yours tonight, and I thought that was great. I think it was “Don't Stand So Close To Me” because I never really got to hear the lyrics and I thought it was that open lyric. It was wonderful. Because everyone has those fantasies. And I think you can hit a line where you're not being too brave because your audience has to admit they have those emotions too

ANNIE: When you're writing, both of you, do you think well, this actually could be a parallel situation where everybody else - or not everyone but a lot of other people … you do? STING: I write sometimes for a specific group of people ANNIE: Really? What kind of group of people? (they snigger) Like Roman Catholic priests? STING: Dustmen. Well, I mean “Don’t Stand So Close To Me” was written for school girls, obviously. “Every Breath You Take” was written for those who have experienced unrequited love - ANNIE: Why did you do the video in such an angry way? I was very surprised - STING: Angular? ANNIE: Angry (sings in an angry voice) “Every breath you take!” (Toyah laughs)

STING: I think the song is very, very sinister and ugly and people have actually misinterpreted it as being a gentle little love song and really it’s about jealousy and surveillance and 1984 ANNIE: Toyah’s - in the past songs - if there's one word that sums it up, I’d say mountains. You always sort of imagine great vistas about your songs - STING: Like a biblical epic (Toyah laughs) The 10 commandments ANNIE: Oh, by the way, another bit of coincidence if not synchronicity is that you have the same people doing your videos, which is - TOYAH: Really?! STING: Well, only the best! ANNIE: Godley and Creme obviously I'm talking about. They made you drive a chariot, didn't they? TOYAH: Yes ANNIE: Which song was it? TOYAH: It was “Thunder In The Mountains” (below, screen caps by toyah.net) I said I'll drive my own chariot, thank you very much and it was wonderful - ANNIE: Having to control the horse which you'd never done before? TOYAH: Yeah, we just get on and hope for the best

STING: That was Godley and Creme in a suit, not a horse (Toyah giggles) They are the best. They’re really are inventive. You give them a brief, you say what your interpretation is and they're faithful to that and yet they add so much of their own energy and enthusiasm to it that they're wonderful to work with TOYAH: And they can take the imagery off at a tangent that still makes the lyric work at its home base. It's like for “Rebel Run” they came up with the imagery for that. I just said I've got this really boring lyric about 1984 - what am I going to do with it? And they said "be a woman roller derby skater and just bash the hell out of yourself" ANNIE: Yeah, I don't care what you say about them being the best or whatever but I still think it seems very strange or maybe it is synchronistic that of all the video makers that there are around - and there's an awful lot of good ones - that you have both chosen Godley and Creme to direct yours!

STING: There's another synchronistic event which is that the colour of Toyah's hair, which is of a flaming carrot at the moment, is exactly the same shade as mine was a week ago. I had mine done for a film called “Dune” where I play this raving queen. And she's in this movie with flaming red hair as well. We just cannot get away from each other ANNIE: I fell out with somebody over that but very seriously, because I said I can't believe the characters because I just thought the name - I know it sounds very sort of simplistic but I found that the name sounded so unreal and unbelievable. So go on, convince me why you wanted to do it - STING: I don’t have to defend the book or even the film. I think a lot of people sort of find a religious theme in the book and that they're obviously very partisan and extremely … what’s the word? Excited by everything in it. And there are other people like myself who are indifferent to it I think it's a very well made book. Very clever book. You create a planet with its own histories and geography, its own ecology and history and politics and whatever. It's a very big achievement. But if you don't believe in it, you don't believe in it, Ann

ANNIE: That’s right TOYAH: Is it TV or - STING: (puts on a silly 1930’s voice) This is the biggest movie in the history of Hollywood and it’s costing $15 million, kid ANNIE: How much do you get? STING: Most of it (Annie laughs) ANNIE: And obviously it’s you and Francesca Annis. Is she very nice? STING: She is a wonderful woman - ANNIE: I thought so - TOYAH: (they all talk at the same time) There’s some great pictures of yourself STING: My body? TOYAH: With wings on STING: Yeah. I wanted to be nude

ANNIE: Did you?! STING: I wanted to be nude in that film. Holding my nose - ANNIE: Why wouldn’t they let you? STING: Because they want a PG rating TOYAH: What does PG mean? STING: Parental Guidance ANNIE: Yeah, so it gets a bit bigger theatre - STING: So they stuck this leather winged jockstrap on me. And I was having a shower at the time. But still … ANNIE: It's probably far more erotic than if you hadn’t anything on - STING: It’s very camp - TOYAH: It’s a great picture because he’s laughing his head off - ANNIE: Toyah has also just stripped off - TOYAH: (annoyed) I haven’t stripped off

ANNIE: No, I’m sorry, it’s very - TOYAH: I lie in the long grass reading a book basically while I let that Greta Scacchi get on with it - STING: Get on with what? TOYAH: Well, the rest of the scene. She hasn't got anything on either STING: Not a stitch on? Sounds like my kind of movie (Annie laughs) Has Olivier got clothes on? TOYAH: Of course he has! It's very tastefully done, but it's just those attitudes - ANNIE: (in Kenny Everett’s voice) Done in the best possible taste! I’m sure it is. Well, thank you both very, very much for coming along. It's been quite an effort on everybody's behalf STING: Thank you, Anne ANNIE: And next . . . well, who knows what and who knows where

Listen to the interview HERE

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