#turin turumbar

[miriel-therindes]

Do you have any opinions on turin turambar?

Oooh anon yes I do indeed.

So I actually really like Turin as a character- I may not like him much as a person but I find the whole fate-doom-free-will-moral aspect of his story fascinating.

The Children of Hurin also strikes me as one of the most...morally complex? no that's not the right phrase for it. But what I mean is it seems to be one of Tolkien's writings where he is most questioning of philosophy and morality. I'd actually be really interested in researching what period of his life Tolkien was working on Turin Turumbar at. I remember reading a post once about free will in Tolkien, the music of the Ainur, and the difference between the fate and free will of Elves and Men- how free will works for Elves seems to be more on the lines of Protestant belief, where free will for Men is more Catholic. He really seems to be exploring his beliefs and what he thinks about ethics in Turin’s story- doom vs free will, Turin’s anger and bad choices vs his fate. The (accidental) incest between him and Nienor and their subsequent suicides also is interesting to me, Tolkien never seems to quite condemn it, he (always seemed to me) laying it out as a tragedy which really wasn’t either Turin or Nienor’s fault.

(I need to reread the CoH though, so I may be remembering wrong.)

I’ve always identified somewhat with Turin, especially at the point of life that I first read his story at. I was the tender age of 13, had recently been going through a lot of difficult situations and changes, and at his childhood Turin seemed just like me back then- grave, proud, melancholic and apart from the others, unlaughing, stubborn and rebellious, desperate for freedom, filled with both pity for others and an anger against them. I liked him at the beginning of his story as a child just like me, and hated him at the end while simultaneously terrified that I really was just like him with that same weakness and that same end. I’ve always been very guarded of my emotions and, I think, often very fake, in a constant dress-up of personalities to hide what I really feel or think. I’ve changed a lot since that time I first read about Turin, or at least have changed a lot in my outward personality. But I still do see myself in him a lot.

(I’m so dramatic but I was a dramatic 13-year-old too, ok? I’m method acting.)

But onto my actual opinion of Turin Turumbar: while I cannot condone many of his decisions, I can at least understand them, and pity him. I tend to be in the camp of attributing more power to his curse than some do, I really do think that the curse had a great deal of power over him. He did some terrible things of his own volition, but he was, I think, always doomed for his end.

He’s also very much a trauma kid, and I think getting that helps see where he’s coming from.

I love his friendship with Beleg, he was my favourite character in CoH when I first read it and his death broke my heart. I cried for a very long time, and I think the most tragic part of his death was that it was an accident. He wasn’t killed in battle or by Morgoth, or even drowning or falling off a cliff or suicide. He was killed by his best friend who he had just saved, lord I still think it’s one of the most tragic deaths in the Silmarillion. He was killed, in a way, by fate itself, by chance, by trust and friendship.

That’s the point where you begin to understand the inherent doom of this story- it is wrapped around the children of Hurin and loving either of them is truly a death sentence.

Finduilas, damn I feel so bad for her. And Gwindor. The amount of pain that Gwindor went through- his brother is killed and mutilated, Gwindor charges at the enemy in grief and rage, this adds to triggering the Nirnaeth, he’s captured, made a slave, crippled, fights his way out, loses a hand, decides to help save Turin (risking recapture!), guards Turin for months after he’s under the cloud of grief for Beleg, his betrothed falls in love with Turin and guess what! he’s gracious and kind about it even though he’s deeply hurt and still hopes the best for her!

And even after all of this he still loves Turin and tells him so with his dying breaths, and begs him to save Finduilas.

But both he and Finduilas are caught in the Curse.

I desperately wish that Turin had saved Finduilas, it’s such a pivotal moment, and I do think that maybe maybe if Turin had done as Gwindor said perhaps the doom could have been avoided. But that’s when Turin’s fatal flaws comes into play, as a classic tragic hero: Pride, and Wrath.

His relationship with Nienor...how do I saw this without sounding weird...it really is sweet from the point that you don’t know they’re siblings. “Only at his coming would she smile, and only when he spoke gaily would she laugh.” But maybe that’s the tragedy and the horror of it all.

In another universe, maybe, a better one, Nienor would have loved Brandir and Turin would have saved Finduilas and loved her. They would never have met and their doom would not have come full.

But their doom did come full and Glaurung reveals himself to Nienor. She realises what had happened to her and her brother and bids farewell to Turin, twice beloved, master of doom by doom mastered. And then she commits suicide from jumping from the cliffside.

Turin murders Brandir in rage, his final horrific action and, perhaps, one of the worst. Then he asks his sword to take his life, his sword speaks back to him, and he throws himself upon it and is dead.

Actually, I think one of Turin’s fatal flaws, that sort of overweening pride, is the Anglo-Saxon concept of offenmod. I wonder if this was an intentional thought on Tolkien’s part, Tolkien did write about the Battle of Maldon and mod. It’s a very classic heroic flaw seen in many characters, even if it isn’t called such.

I once read something about Tragedy and how it’s about the hero being in the wrong story, the wrong place, the wrong time. If Hamlet and Othello had swapped places both of their stories probably would have turned out much better. But instead they’re in these situations where their greatest strengths are useless and their flaws cause them to fail.

And this really does ring true for Turin- he so desperately wants to do something, to be useful, but he’s in the wrong story. He wants to fight against Morgoth so much, he wants revenge for all the pain he’s caused him. But he’s not in the right story for that, so his greatest strengths don’t work and he falls because of his flaws which are so very picked out in this story.

In the end, I pity him. I may not like him as a person, I may not condone his actions, but I see his fate and his strengths and his flaws, and I understand.

[the-master-maid]

Whatever else you think about Tolkien's male characters' relationships, whether you think of them as 'just good friends' or 'brothers in arms' (eyebrow raised: not sure it always means what you think it means, my modern heterosexual oblivions - pretty sure some very queer ancient Greeks, not to mention some fabulous Georgian and Victorian men could wax pretty poetical about the love between 'brothers-in-arms') love and tenderness between men was something that Tolkien was consistently interested in exploring. The depths of it, the desires behind it, how far love could take a relationship, what actions love and jealousy would lead to, and how far the boundaries of normative male love could be crossed or dismantled. And what ensues when heteronormative boundaries in relationships are crossed (i.e. when characters keep getting closer and closer). Nowhere in the text, in any of Tolkien's texts is this exploration of male same-sex love given parameters that exclude erotic desire and love and sometimes outright homosexual relationships (looking directly at you, Beleg and Turin).

[talvkas]

Beleg: Are you making a mess of your life again?

Turin, randomly making a horrible mess of his life: ...no. 

[beyond-far-horizons]

It's always the same with a Silmarillion reread...

Trying to not be both impressed and also disgusted by Melkor because he's just an awesome badass Dark Lord but also you know also a Dark Lord.

Ugh the Valar...i want to like you, I'm meant to like you but apart from Ulmo can everyone get up off their immortal backsides and actually do something as well as stop unfairly looking down on humanity and spoiling elves, that would be great.

Luthien...that is all. Luthien that stood up to Sauron, the Red Maul and Morgoth himself, even having the guts to not only be undaunted by his eyes but straightfaced say she's there to sing for him and the entire Court of Hell after being stripped of her disguise. Oh you know I was just passing...fancy a song?

Falling in love with just about every Elf Lord that crosses the page at some point...now do I prefer silver hair, or dark hair or golden hair or red hair??

Just wishing that humanity (I refuse to call us Men) didn't feel like second fiddle to the Elves and the Gift of Men actually felt like a gift. I know the lore has reasons for this but I want both of the Children to feel special in their own way. The dominion of humanity might come later but that doesn't stop Andreth, Hador and the rest just looking less than the Elves of their time and it irritates me. I believe humanity goes to Eru in the Timeless Halls and therefore the Elves and Valar can keep 'the Blessed Realm', we don't even need that.

Andreth, Haleth, Aredhel...all my ladies. I just wish there were more of you and the emphasis wasn't so much on looks.

The dragons are awesome and I hate that they are all uniformly evil. Balrogs are also awesome but I accept them as evil.

Can people listen to Ulmo esp if their name is Turin Turumbar or whatever name he's hiding under this time.

Special mention to dear Gwindor, Beleg and the awesome Dwalves of Belegost on this reread.

[alicebeckstrom]

And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: 'Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly.' ~ The Silmarillion, Chapter 21 (Turin Turumbar by Lufa, deviantART)