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awhimproned · 8 months

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"you don't actually want the thing you think you want", a nandermo retrospective

In this post of mine deep diving into the decision of guillermo staying human, I said I wanted to make a nandermo analysis at one point. I absolutely have no self-control so I immediately started working on it. So, welcome. This is it.

This post will attempt to analyze in depth two implications of the infamous quote from above by Yana Gorskaya:

It’s shipbaiting and we’ve got a storm coming

It’s slowburn and the importance of recognizing toxic dynamics even when enjoying the drama and the potential

The quote comes from this interview question right here:

It can be interpreted in a lot of ways and directions, the most prominent one being “and they were platonic all along. trust us you dont want them together” — it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth because I can see the showrunners dangling a carrot in front of a target audience until the finish line. Especially when one of the directors herself says and proves outright that nandor and guillermo have been framed romantically on purpose just by having the line “will they won’t they relationship” in the interview.

Keep in mind the admittance of will they won’t they directly out of Yana automatically eliminates the argument that the writers were strictly going for platonic friends. There’s no refusal. No going: yea no we dont know. They wrote nandor and guillermo to be romantic.

From there we have two routes we can take:

1) On the direction that they’re not having nandermo be a thing: This makes everything shipbaiting.

At least it’s not queerbaiting, I hear you say, both characters are queer. I’d argue shipbaiting is worse in this situation, because in this frame, it rather looks like the showrunners are using the certain attachment and sentiments of the audience to string people along:

Both of these characters are people of color, one is plus size, both of them queer. If it’s shipbaiting, this kind of alludes to discrimination, I’m afraid. It does not look good on the showrunners/producers’ part (when Taika’s name is attached, too. This man is literally in OFMD. Help)

And you don’t want to be like Jason Rothenberg; beefing with your own fandom, making writing decisons to spite them, kill a lesbian character after exploiting your sapphic audience and be infamous for the worst case of bury your gays, shipbait for seven seasons to hold the largest fandom in the audience to keep your views up, mistreat your POC cast members... etc. God, yeesh.

It’s almost incriminating in that sense, when they stopped floating around the idea of them and made it canon by dropping the “maybe he has feelings for you as well” line in season 3 and while guillermo was disguised as nandor. And have him be bitchy about gail. Everything about s3 told us that guillermo had a thing for nandor.

If nandor and guillermo were intended strictly as just a couple of pals, they could easily shut down the excitement and expectation for the ship, but instead they did those. It was a confirmation more than anything rather than a rebuttal.

But I guess for the shipbaiting case, the “rebuttal” was s4 when Guillermo was in his healing era, Nandor wanted a wife, and they resetted allathat in s3 to practically nothing.

As much as I’m going to use this as an opposition argument in section two, it also is a potential support for shipbaiting case, and that is the repetition of “friends” for nandor&guillermo that started becoming more of a thing in seasons 4&5. Especially s4.

It saw Guillermo outgrowing Nandor for a potential love interest when s3 had the biggest plot twist in their favor ever, it was going somewhere, and then they immediately established not only Guillermo finding a boyfriend in London, but also him having no hard feelings about Nandor wanting to find a wife when we all know how hard he’d taken Gail — and most important of it all, Nandor just wanting a Freddie of his own. It’s really weirdly romantic drama-centric with each of them getting partners & setting up for jealousy, but the writers subvert every trope, and instead do this weird shit with Nandor’s storyline where it’s purely a horror story from Marwa’s POV and he’s a horrible, selfish monster (and I was flabbergasted at the downward spiral his character took) — yet he’s incredibly “generous” to Guillermo because he chose to make his own Freddie rather than take his and let him go in the end, it’s all so very bizarre.

Which makes the shipbait even more outrageous. Because now it’s personal since it has more shipbait moments inbetween that don’t have heterosexual explanations. KEEP IN MIND THEY’RE STILL FRAMED ROMANTICALLY THEY KNOW WHAT THEY’RE DOING AND THE WHOLE THING WITH DEREK IS A WHOLE CHEATING METAPHOR.

The equivalent would be that one scene in Sherlock BBC when irene goes “of course you are [in love with him]” to john and how the show keeps bringing up how other characters think they’re in a relationship and saying it. You never want to be like Sherlock, either. Ugh.

I’ve been in through enough queerbaiting&shipbaiting to know that it could definitely turn out this way, and I’m still half-expecting this to be honest. I’m also a big fan of ofmd and go, but they’re exceptions, not the norm, and as much as wwdits is a wildly revolutionarily queer show, there is enough material for it all to turn out to be nothing.

So, in conclusion: shipbaiting turns out to be worse than it is because it’s on purpose and there’s no salvaging it after the “it was friendship all along ❤️” insistence, there’s receipts and the actors are on board with it. And in a situation like things, there is only one thing to say:

At least we have fanfiction and the actors like the pairing.

2) On the direction that nandermo is a thing: “you don’t know what you’re asking for and you won’t like it if we give it to you right now” dilemma, aka “you don’t actually want the thing you think you want” —

which basically rounds up to yana meaning, if nandor and guillermo were to be a thing right now at this point in their relationship, it would be messy, abusive and toxic [and there are still other plots to explore and directions this pairing could/have to be taken before they become canon.]

“Yeah they are messy, toxic characters, we know what we’re asking for,” I hear you saying. And I say to that, no, you really don’t, and you would end up hating what they did with nandor and guillermo if they became canon before they were true equals. One example of this would be people switching on Olicity (Oliver and Felicity from Green Arrow, wildly popular crackship there was no hope and only the teasing of in the fandom before it became a real thing) after the writers rushed to make them canon and did them very wrong afterwards.

The allure of nandermo is guillermo breaking the status quo and catching nandor slipping by establishing himself as his equal, destroying the power imbalance completely, them standing as individuals with equal power if not guillermo flipping the dynamic upside down and asserting dominance over nandor this time when he was a mere familiar nandor couldn’t care less about before.

This process is still in progress as of season 5 and let me tell you this, them becoming canon during Guillermo’s familiar status would have been downright icky.

This show’s only other canon ship ladja is the most healthy, gomez and morticia-esque thing ever, they’re in love, they’re horny all the time, they are queer, they fuck other people all the time and encourage each other, they’re wildly protective of one another, the man steps up to be a single father of a child he isn’t obligated to look after and he doesnt let it derail his wife’s career or force motherhood onto her, like. Do you really expect they wouldn’t let nandermo cook enough before they are on this level of iconic and healthy before they become a thing?

Nandor wasn’t even able to admit that Guillermo was a friend to him (and to Guillermo’s face) up until season 5. In season 1 he was weirded out by even saying it, in season 4 he could only manage to say “best man” and immediately reverse when the word friend was brought up — “closest companion for 13 years” in the market fight & “i may have killed my friend” muttered to himself before guillermo comes bursting out the door, it’s like he didn’t want to admit out loud that Guillermo became very important to him in a very short amount of time. Half of the pairing consisting of a person who is unable to make it clear and known to the other how important and precious he is just doesn’t sit well in the case they are in a relationship.

And the power imbalance is still there even if you don’t see it or think it’s gone, albeit knocked almost even by “I can kill you if I want to but I don’t” assertiveness from Guillermo.

Because even in season 3 and 4 in instances Guillermo was able to best Nandor in power, he’s still inferior to and is in service of him — because he’s working for something he wants from Nandor, which Nandor of course keeps taking advantage of by treating Guillermo like a subservient familiar (although it keeps getting better as things change more and more) even if in name he’s a bodyguard.

Their relationship is that of employment in name, the nature of it is give-and-take, Guillermo says it himself in s3 Nandor is a boss more than a friend and he would still be have to be “friends” with him because he’s his boss. And let’s be honest, before Nandor really became found family to him and he himself realized that over the seasons, Nandor was a means to an end for Guillermo, he’s “Master”, not “Nandor”.

And from Nandor’s perspective, Guillermo is with him because he wants to be a vampire. Simple as that. It’s what allows Nandor to exploit Guillermo.

Imagine a premature romance happening in these circumstances, it’d be absolutely in abuse territory, you don’t make your significant other do the dirty work for you like that. It’s why boss-employee relationships are most of the times, forbidden in the workplace, because the boss holds some power over the employee and can very much have them do things that they don’t want to do.

Nandor would not be able to see Guillermo as an equal even when there are feelings involved, because I have to remind you, Nandor is a cruel bastard, and it would turn into one of those AITA posts real quick between them when Guillermo is fully in service of Nandor still.

And remember how Nandor treated his “love” Marwa, how fast he dropped her from his life once that “phase” was over, all the things he did to her, she was his significant other — yet he never connected with her, not really, she was just an accessory to him and this was supposed to be “love”; and the other side of the coin, how he keeps self-sabotaging and ignoring his real problem by filling the void with what he thinks is the solution, getting in the way of his own happiness.

This can’t be ideal from Guillermo’s perspective when imagining a relationship with him.

And now, change Guillermo’s gender. Imagine it being a woman who’s going through this. It’s putrid toxic when you think about it like that. And to think “she” would receive Nandor’s respect and equal footing once she became a vampire same as him — uhh... No, please, thank you. It’s less fun and more this is problematic when the tables turn, isn’t it?

Not to mention how open the vampires’ relationships and sex lives are, they are not monogamous. Guillermo is a very repressed and private Catholic, he wouldn’t be able to handle Nandor and Laszlo’s trysts. He has his own journey to go through for him to be also into open relationships because Nandor sure as hell won’t turn monogamous for him, this is wwdits.

Which is why the progress of “work relationship” to “official declaration of friendship” over the course of season 4 & 5 is very important in their dynamic, because it takes things into a more attentive, caring and intimate territory in which both openly care for each other beyond being Master and Familiar. They both grew tremendously as individuals. Guillermo admits he loves Nandor the most, Nandor is finally able to say that Guillermo is his friend and openly do acts of service and somewhat redeem his selfish actions in s4 when he was lashing out making dumb decisions and actively self-sabotaging because he was given the power instead of confronting leftover problems he was repressing from s3.

This solidifies their connection, makes it something undeniable that it affects a vampire who immediately is able to move on from another’s death. You’re shown again and again how they react to death and how insignificant it is to them, yet Nandor is close to tears when he thinks Guillermo is dead, falls to his knees even, and is even more disturbed and outraged when he thinks Laszlo is violating his corpse.

For the first time you see that more than an unhealthy codependency or a symbiotic relationship between a vampire and a slayer bodyguard/familiar, Nandor is emotionally attached to Guillermo.

Like, really attached that he will actually be kind and giving and forgiving — not only did he violate a vampire society taboo to kill a fellow vampire, but also overcame the pride and humiliation because he finally realizes Guillermo is much more important to him and that he actually doesn’t want to kill him when the anger lets up enough for him to see that. (Thank you Patton Oswald for your service)

And we don’t stop there. He accepts him as an equal and invites him to live together in the house, which proves that even when he was a slayer bodyguard Nandor didn’t see him as an equal, and after Guillermo is having problems with the killing side of being a vampire, he doesn’t humiliate or shame Guillermo through this. You‘d think he and the vampires would make fun of him endlessly, but they let Nandor organize this intricate ritual so all of them together can allow Guillermo’s decision to be as authentic and without pressure and shame as possible. You’d think that ritual room was prepared by Guillermo but everything is done by Nandor, so he proves he’s not entirely unable to function as a normal being who can live by himself, he’s just dramatic and likes to be pampered.

If you thought The Roast was an incredibly generous nandermo episode for me to think we collectively hallucinated it like a Goncharov moment, this final episode is downright fanfic. Nandor has never been this nice with Guillermo, EVER.

All of this is done right after Nandor’s official admitting that Guillermo is his friend. This is a crucial step in their relationship for Nandor to consider Guillermo to be more, and Guillermo to question just what they are.

And love can only work where there’s mutual affection and respect for one another. And the writers are gradually working up to achieve that while tackling individual character arcs for nandor and guillermo to get there.

The power imbalance I’m talking about is a thing that exists beyond the powers they hold over the other’s head, it is about what they think of each other as. What Nandor is to Guillermo, and what Guillermo is to Nandor.

They could only become canon without it being toxic is when Nandor can look at Guillermo and think — “This is my friend and not my servant” and when the carrot of vampirism isn’t hanging in front of Guillermo and he’s naturally an actual part of the friend group (so that he wouldn’t be mistreated while he’s Nandor’s partner too.)

And I really don’t think nadja out of nowhere saying “my best friend” about laszlo was a coincidental writing choice.

And we’re nearly there at this point. Mister Nandor nobody can betray me and get away with it the Relentless just let Guillermo get away with it, and not only that, he fixed everything for him. Everything. He didn’t even get jealous that Guillermo had a choice in staying human when he obviously would kill to be human in season 3. He just went “I will fix”. It’s the most selfless thing he did in the entire series and he only got competent and smart when it was Guillermo in question — he wanted to fix the friendship.

And in episode 8, he told Baron Afanas — “whatever Guillermo’s flaws may be [...]”

That suggests Nandor doesn’t see any flaw in Guillermo, and is unaware if they do in fact, exist. He genuinely likes Guillermo, enough to cry and mourn when he thinks him dead, enough to snap at the Baron and defend him until the end, enough to clutch his favorite sweater like a shock blanket. It was this episode that cemented Guillermo as indisposable to Nandor, and the season finale to establish how far Nandor would go and soften himself up (change) if it was for Guillermo’s sake, he’s never been that tender and considerate, ever with Guillermo,

and you could say at that point it could be because they were “equals” as vampires but Nandor knew what he would choose — the focus on his hands when he’s personally dressing guillermo (pride and prejudice hand flex, dont @ me). "don't be nervous we've all been through it" (gentle). "nothing you cannot handle" (encouraging). Making up an intricate ritual so that he wouldn’t feel pressured or stressed or shamed. "you wanna be a human, there's no shame in that". (These vampires clown on EVERYONE) "we're gonna make it happen". "you want me to do it?". "I don't know" "I do". Keeping Guillermo's old or spare glasses in his pocket like it was something he came across while he was destroying Guillermo’s things like some lover scorned and he saved it like it was some keepsake. “I'm sorry, Guillermo. That was the only way for you to figure out what you actually wanted”. The hand on his shoulder to comfort him and the patting. “It was a horrible and hard decision. I think you made the right choice.” (Nandor himself would have killed derek in a heartbeat if it was his decision to return to being a human, but he still spared Guillermo’s feelings because he knows how hard it was for Guillermo. Since when is Nandor considerate about another person’s feelings? Guillermo is special.)

He was so very unexpectedly gentle and he’s never ever been that way and I am still in shock about his honesty and the effort he’s put into helping. This was the biggest gift he could have given Guillermo, not the vampirism, but a way out of it when he didnt want it anymore, a choice. And he wouldnt have done that if he didnt deeply care for Guillermo —

And with that, we’re almost out of the toxicity zone into a yet new dynamic with them, one that isn’t about who’s dominant and who’s submissive, but them finally being able to stand on equal ground, if Guillermo isn’t asking for vampirism from Nandor anymore and isn’t implicitly going back to being his familiar.

If they’re going towards a romantic relationship, this was an important border to cross and a topic finally handled the way it needs to be addressed. The one thing that’s causing a chain of command in their relationship is gone. And anything can happen. Anything.

I don’t believe that line about cleaning up Derek’s body was meant to imply Guillermo was back to being a familiar for Nandor and that we are back to square one. His phrasing was extremely polite — “Now if you wouldn’t mind cleaning up Derek’s corpse before sunrise that would be great”. That’s not an order. Derek is Guillermo’s mess, so he has to handle it himself, it’s like saying “I’ve done all this and I even killed him for you, and the rest is yours to deal with,” — it’s like saying “I cooked, you do the dishes”, and Nandor is giving him space to deal with his decision, hell, he didn’t even tell Guillermo to clean everything else like he normally would, now that would suggest back to the status quo.

Season 5 was fucking HUGE for nandermo and all of guillermo’s dynamics with everyone. It still feels like a fever dream to be honest. They really went and got rid of what was clogging up the progress of their relationship. They’re just. Happening naturally. It’s a slowburn if it’s meant to happen eventually and the writers are being really careful with doing things in the right way for it to not become toxic.

You just gotta have some faith in the team and wait for it.

In conclusion: Yes fucked up relationships are fun. until it’s canon and people are making discourse on the internet about how abusive it really is when it could have been handled better. The ross and rachel-ification of nandermo is the last thing we need.

There’s definitely things I’ve missed because im purely making this post on mobile and it’s not as coherent as I’d like it to be, if I have, please don’t hesitate to tell me.

#nandermo #guillermo de la cruz #nandor the relentless #wwdits meta #wwdits #what we do in the shadows #wwdits s5 #wwdits spoilers #wwdits season 5

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parttimesarah · 9 months

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💜My immediate thoughts on WWDITS FX S5E3💚

* Yana Gorskaya always directs the BEST Nandermo episodes!

* I love that we got a fresh, more subtle, “SeanaaAaAaAAy”

* Guillermo’s interview sitting in his footlocker is so sweet! It’s a reminder that Nandor bought him something he really wanted and that Nandor is responsible, in this small way, for helping Guillermo feel more like a vampire.

* Guillermo standing behind Nandor when Sean and Charmaine are in the fancy room is just a subtle reminder of how dedicated Guillermo remains to Nandor. He is not abandoning him.

* I WANT BOTH OF THOSE SEAN SHIRTS!

* AWWWW Nandor, your crush is showing, bb!

* Guillermo’s super speed was… lacking. He seems less strong than when he was slaying/bodyguarding in S2, 3, and 4. Maybe it’s because he is further away from being his true self. Laszlo saying that the turning has been “stymied”, to me, lends credence to the idea that Nandor’s blood could kickstart its completion. Guillermo will come into his full strength when he is finally united with Nandor for eternity.

* I gotta admit, it feels a bit like they just needed to find something for Natasia to be doing. I think she did a great job with the physical performance, but I don’t know how much her/the doll’s story here was needed.

* “Soft after two pumps”, Nandor? Could it be because you’ve just been thinking of Guillermo (the djinn’s wish) while not being with Guillermo. That issue will go away 👏 once 👏 you 👏 are 👏 with 👏 Guillermo!!!

* Nandor demanding he “is wanted” as a reason to spend time with Guillermo (and Laszlo) during their experiments was so telling. Like he needed to hear Laszlo say he is a powerful hypnotist to be happy, he needs to audibly hear that he is actually wanted, even if he’s the one saying it. Guillermo saying “I chose you. I want you.” is going to make this babygirl cream his jeans velvet robes.

* Nandor looking at Guillermo before saying he can fly higher than Laszlo is another obvious tell that he is only concerned with Guillermo’s opinion of him. He is searching for that validation!

* “Grey Boy” is such a good nickname for CR 😂

* Laszlo calling Guillermo “dear boy” is a huge compliment when you consider how their relationship in the series began. Laszlo may not show it (cuz it takes him a long time to show his emotions), but he does care for Guillermo’s wellbeing.

* Awwww Laszlooooo, look at you out living your best beach boy life! I’d say that red face’s sunburn would be worth it! It is interesting that Laszlo is able to take strength from Guillermo. Sure, it’s something Guillermo doesn’t sacrifice anything to give away (just some hours on the treadmill), but the metaphor of using Guillermo’s self-defined weakness (he hasn’t been turned well enough, he isn’t vampiric enough) to help bring a vampire joy is actually quite lovely

* Nandor admitted it! OMFG! I was SO ready for him to deny deny deny that he was just trying to impress Guillermo but HE DIDN’T! Honestly, I still can’t believe it.

* Not the TikTok trainspotting guy Nandor Cam 😂. As I watched Nandor slowly going further and further up, I kept trying to imagine what he was saying to himself in his mind. It had to be something about wanting to outshine Laszlo so that Guillermo will stay with him forever. And then maybe his (usually blissfully empty) mind would have led him to say “Well, there is one way I could make sure we’re together forever…”

* Charmaine’s face when Laszlo said how much Sean has tried to kiss him. 👀 Might we see a jealous Charmaine??

* Naked Nandy! GOOD LORD! Thank you writers. Thank you, Yana.

* What does the Guillermo cough with the smoke mean?! It might have just been his breath in the cold, but it really looked like a bit of smoke or steam escaped him upon seeing his master naked (and with the djinn-dick). He still protected his Master though, even with the surprise, and that tending behavior was sweet. **UPDATE: I don’t watch with subtitles, so I missed the fact that Guillermo said “Oh my God” and then he coughed some smoke. That’s so perfect!**

* The jalopy lives and it looked great! But the best part of the parade was seeing Guillermo being so cute and happy. Yes, he’s owning his identity, but he also knows that Nandor will literally go to space for him!

* And as for that end credits scene…Nonononononononononononononono

#what a rollercoaster #wwdits s5 spoilers #wwdits s5 #wwdits s5e3 #I am overall LOVING this season so far #I do hope Nadja’s plot gets more grounded #but the Nandor-Guillermo-Laszlo dynamic is ON POINT #this was THE most Nandermo-heavy episode EVER!#THANK YOU YANA!!!!#wwdits #what we do in the shadows #what we do in the shadows fx #wwdits fx #nandermo

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