when-the-pawnn

[when-the-pawnn]

Is Tumblr a fan of this trend by any chance? Because I spent way too long on this

[when-the-pawnn]

I kind of want to talk about why I dislike versions of the Odyssey where Odysseus cheats and has children with Circe and Calypso.

First of all, yes, I dislike that it negatively impacts Odysseus and Penelope’s relationship. Loyalty is an important theme in the Odyssey and important to both of them and their relationship. I dislike all versions where either of them cheats, especially because it is meant to be a bad ending for their marriage (such as Penelope being sent back to her father) or to make Odysseus look bad.

Anyways, there are other reasons as well to why I dislike those versions. The first one being that it doesn’t sit right with me that Odysseus has willing affairs with Circe who is described as having him detained and held his men hostage, and Calypso who very much imprisoned him.

Another reason I dislike those versions is because I feel like it takes away from the suffering and tragedy he went through in those ten years. This is not me saying he deserves what happened to him at all. Odysseus was fated to not return home for 20 years, but what he experienced in those could have been different. Although it sounds messed up, I thought what happened to him might have been a punishment for Troy, and not just for angering Poseidon. The Achaean Kings experienced some sort of punishment and Odysseus’s is arguably the most severe. I do think this may be because he came up with the wooden horse and him being credited as the “sacker of cities”. “Lovingly” sleeping with two goddesses doesn’t make sense to be a part of his punishment, in my opinion (meaning for it to go with the punishment, if my words were a bit unclear).

One of the saddest parts of Odysseus’s story is that he was forced to be away from his family, and ended up losing the chance to raise his son - his only child - and missed his entire childhood. If he had those children with Circe and Calypso, does he just abandon them when he leaves? It’s strange that despite being forced to leave Telemachus, he leaves behind those other children he has.

As for the Telegony, like many others I find it to be a bad ending to the myth of Odysseus. It doesn’t make sense to me either why he would spend all these years trying to get home only to go marry another woman in another kingdom and just remain there.

Anyways, these are my reasons for disliking these versions and why I prefer Homer’s. Sorry if this was too long and a lot to read.

[when-the-pawnn]

hi! do you perhaps have a recommended translation of the odyssey? i want to read it (we only read parts of it at uni, didn't have the time for the entire thing) but i'm kind of overwhelmed by the translations and people having such strong opinions about them. i also heard that there are translations that kind of go extra hard on misogyny and i'd like to avoid that...

Hello! The translation I would recommend is the one by Robert Fagles. His is described as one of the most accurate ones and I found it to be an easy read.

I’ve heard some good things about Rieu’s translation which is written in prose, but I believe the Fagles translation is more accurate.

I hope this helps!

[when-the-pawnn]

An in-depth too long analysis of odyssey! Telemachus’s sexism and the role that translation plays in it + mother-son relationship analysis

Ah, canon Homer Telemachus. Ithaca’s batshit pissed off prince. Recently I’ve been seeing some takes on telemachus that make my heart sad, so I’m going to blab about my interpretation of him in Homer's odyssey. Not epic, though I love epic very dearly. While epic! telemachus is a lovely determined boy, OG tele is quite the controversial figure. Namely: the sexist little shit allegations. These allegations are not unfounded, however, as someone who has read wayyy too many translations of the Odyssey, I have a lot of thoughts about Telemachus's behavior and the way it's interpreted. So here’s my extremely deep analysis into Telemachus’s attitude towards his mother in Homer’s original Odyssey.

First thing out of the way: Is Telemachus sexist? Yeah. Quite a bit. It's ancient Ithaca, of course he’s talking about being the man of the house. As much as I love the idea of spartan princess penelope, it’s unfortunately not very viable. When we read the Odyssey today, there’s a ton of shit that does not age well. However, when it comes to Telemachus’s dialogue with his mother, specifically, my interpretation of their relationship is a little different. (Only when it comes to penelope though the maid stuff is a whole other story).

In order to talk about different interpretations of the Odyssey, we’ve got to talk translations. Telemachus’s, and the behavior of characters as a whole, is oftentimes largely dependent on the translator. Case in point: If you read Wilson for example, Telemachus is unabashedly a sexist punk. But if you read Fitzgerald or Pope, he’s really not. And there’s a reason I think the latter are more faithful translations. While I like Wilson’s Odyssey, her goal was to create a very progressive version of the original. She makes a lot of changes to language to call out the problematic nature of the original, and is obviously going to make sexist ideas at the time blatantly more apparent for a modern audience. Nothing wrong with this and at times it's quite lovely, but her translation at times stands out as much, much, different than most of the other translators not only in language, but in intention. Let’s look at a specific passage from the Odyssey, namely the infamous moment Telemachus telling his mother to go inside after she addresses the bard, and from there look at the differences from translation to transaltion not only in what Telemachus says, but Penelope’s reaction.

Wilson: Sullen Telemachus said, “Mother, no, you must not criticize the loyal bard for singing as it pleases him to sing. Poets are not to blame for how things are; Zeus is; he gives to each as is his will. Do not blame Phemius because he told about the Greek disasters. You must know the newest song is always praised the most.  So steel your heart and listen to the song. Odysseus was not the only one who did not come back home again from Troy.  Many were lost. Go in and do your work. Stick to the loom and distaff. Tell your slaves to do their chores as well. It is for men to talk, especially me. I am the master.” That startled her. She went back to her room and took her son’s uneasy words to heart. She went upstairs, along with both her slaves,  and wept there for her dear Odysseus,  until Athena gave her eyes sweet sleep

Oof. Not a good look for Telemachus. Hold your horses though because again, no shade to Wilson, but there are… a lot of things off here. From the first line, “Sullen Telemachus”. Sullen? Wilson is the only person I've seen call him sullen, although tell me if I'm wrong plz, but in nearly every other translation he is always thoughtful. Thoughtful or poised, or clearheaded. That really does show the kind of bias Wilson had when translating, because even though it’s a good translation, I do think this one exchange in particular is very misinterpreted, and at times a bit odd in the wording. Take note of the placement of the word uneasy, which I’ve always found to be fascinating especially compared to other translations. Looking at these translations, it's very clear how different Wilson's is from the rest of them.

Lattimore: Then the thoughtful Telemachos said to her in answer: ‘Why, my mother,  do you begrudge this excellent singer his pleasing himself as the thought drives him? It is not the singers who are to blame, it must be Zeus is to blame, who gives out to men who eat bread, to each and all, the way he wills it. There is nothing wrong in his singing the sad return of the Danaans.  People, surely, always give more applause to that song  which is the latest to circulate among the listeners.  So let your heart and let your spirit be hardened to listen.  Odysseus is not the only one who lost his homecoming day at Troy.  There were many others who perished, besides him.  Go therefore back in the house, and take up your own work,  the loom and the distaff, and see to it that your handmaidens  ply their work also; but the men must see to discussion,  all men, but I most of all. For mine is the power in this household.’  Penelope went back inside the house, in amazement, for she laid the  serious words of her son deep away in her spirit, and she went back to the  upper story with her attendant women,  and wept for Odysseus, her beloved husband,  until gray-eyed Athene cast sweet slumber over her eyelids

Looking at Lattimore, often considered the most accurate, the changes are immediately very obvious. The sexism remains, especially in the latter half, but Telemachus isn’t sullen, and most importantly, the way he addresses her is not disrespectful in the way Wilson’s is. Not what he says, but the manner in which he says it. Wilson’s modern language translation is very brief, and Telemachus as a result sounds harsh, while Lattimore makes it obvious that he is addressing his mother, and in the way that a son respected a mother in ancient Greece, respected her. However, the biggest difference is Penelope’s response. She is not “startled” and his words are not “uneasy”.  In fact, it’s quite the contrary. He’s serious, and she can be interpreted as trusting him and being impressed at his stoicism, and it is fairly clear that she is awed and takes him seriously, and is not hurt by what he says. As for the sexism, he’s a man in Ancient Greece. Period-typical, BUT I am going to talk about my thoughts on that once we look at all of the translations (well not all of them but the ones we are discussing here).

Fitzgerald: But Telemakhos intervened and said to her: "Mother, why do you grudge our own dear minstrel joy of song, wherever his thought may lead? Poets are not to blame, but Zeus who gives what fate he pleases to adventurous men.  Here is no reason for reproof: to sing the news of the Danaans!  Men like best a song that rings like morning on the ear.  But you must nerve yourself and try to listen. Odysseus was not the only one at Troy never to know the day of his homecoming.  Others, how many others, lost their lives!"  The lady gazed in wonder and withdrew, her son's clear wisdom echoing in her mind.  But when she had mounted to her rooms again with her two handmaids, then she fell to weeping for Odysseus, her husband. Grey-eyed Athena presently cast a sweet sleep on her eyes.

Here we’re getting into a much more nuanced and interesting version of Telemachus and Penelope’s relationship, and this my personal favorite translation of the Odyssey. I adore Fitzgerald's language and highly recommend it. Again, Telemachus is not disrespectful at all to her, and again most importantly, Penelope does not take it that way. “Gazed in wonder and withdrew, her son’s clear wisdom echoing in her mind” Come onnn man. I would argue that this Penelope is much less fragile than Wilson's. She’s not startled at his “uneasy” words (sorry for harping on about that I just hate that word choice), she respects her son. And he respects her. This dynamic is much more interesting, because even though what Telemachus is saying is obviously not the most sensitive, she is not afraid nor resentful, and she sees him as brave and smart instead of rude/scary. (kind of like his father if you're feeling like drawing some parallels) Notable that Fitzgerald completely omits Telemachus’s sexist words here, but even then Telemachus does speak of men very often and bring up Penelope needed to deal with the song like the men do, so he's not completely erasing the hints of patriarchal elements. Now, let’s look at the last, and my personal favorite of this scene, and then finally into my interpretation of Telemachus’s remarks and Penelope’s reaction.

Pope: "Why, dearest object of my duteous love,"  Replied the prince, "will you the bard reprove?  Oft, Jove's ethereal rays (resistless fire)  The chanter's soul and raptured song inspire;  Instinct divine? nor blame severe his choice,  Warbling the Grecian woes with harp and voice:  For novel lays attract our ravish'd ears;  But old, the mind with inattention hears;  Patient permit the sadly-pleasing strain;  Familiar now with grief, your tears refrain, And in the public wo forget your own; You weep not for a perish'd lord alone.  What Greeks now wandering in the Stygian gloom,  With your Ulysses shared an equal doom  Your widow'd hours, apart, with female toil  And various labours of the loom, beguile:  There rule, from palace-cares remote and free;  That care to man belongs, and most to me."  Mature beyond his years, the queen admires  His sage reply, and with her train retires.  Then swelling sorrows burst their former bounds,  With echoing grief afresh the dome resounds;  Till Pallas, piteous of her plaintive cries, In slumber closed her silver-streaming eyes.

Ohh fuck that’s a sexy translation. That's the sexiest translation of all. If you've never read Pope and hate Telemachus, read Pope! I love Pope so much. Not the easiest to get through, but that man knew how to give us emotion. We’ve gone from bitchy sullen Telemachus to “dearest object of my duteous love”. Like?? That's his mom! That's literally the only person he has ever consistently been truly devoted to other than a dad who he's never met! And it goes both ways, like “mature beyond his years” godDAMN that’s so perfect. The reason I think “mature beyond his years” is by far the line that understands their relationship the most is simply because when we look at the context of his situation, let’s try to understand what Telemachus is trying to do. He’s NOT uneasy! He's occasionally pushing her away to show his status to the suitors (although it doesn't really work lmao they don't give a fuck), and she is consistently impressed by it. As for the argument that this is just as inaccurate to the original as Wilson’s, I disagree because there are a lot more common threads that connect Pope, Fitzgerald, and Lattimore than Wilson. The most obvious just in this scene alone is that Penelope is impressed by her son in varying different ways. Consistently when Telemachus tells her to leave and let him have the authority she is quietly impressed or surprised, and looking at the context of the situation we can understand why. Analysis time baybe.

The reason I keep bringing up the time period is because Penelope canNOT really do anything against these suitors. Odysseus is her husband, Telemachus is her son, they can do something. Women in ancient Greece did not have the power to stand up against 108 angry men, and that is reflected in the text. The way I have always interpreted Telemachus’s insistence on being the “man of the house” is that he needs to be. It is essential. If he is not the man of the house, he loses the freaking house. That is why Penelope is impressed here. Why she’s either “in amazement”, “gaz[ing] in wonder”, or “admir[ing] his sage reply” Telemachus is young, and is treated as such. In a lot of the translations he is not yet considered a man. His insistence on being the man of the house, and this scene in particular, imo is him just saying “let me try to take care of this. As the literal only guy left, I have to fill that space and get them to respect me or we are massively screwed." Is it toxic masculinity? Of fucking course! The man has no father in a patriarchal society, the daddy issues are real intense with this one. He has no male authority figure except for suitors who harass his mom, whom he defends constantly. I’m not going to quote anymore so just read the scene where the suitors find out his mom is lying about the loom. They tell him to kick her out and his response is literally “why would i do that that’s stupid” in everything except wilson’s. Telemachus, unfortunate as it is, NEEDS to be the man of the house or get his dad back. That is why his mom is always so impressed with him being bold, because him standing up for himself and asserting power as the man of the house is kind of crazy when you think about how there are 108 men totally willing to kill him in order to get what he is claiming as his own. Mature beyond his years guys! That’s why she says that! I love Pope so much!! Unfortunately when he tries to speak in front of the suitors, they completely shut him down and that’s when he makes his voyage bc he just kind of keeps crying and they do not give a shit lmao. Telemachus is obviously sexist in a lot of ways, all the men in ancient Greece believed that men had more decision making authority than women, but I blatantly disagree that he does not respect his mother. He is desperate to prove himself, to “be a man”, but at the end of the day he protects her and I think there’s something to be noted about him continually asking her to go to her room to avoid the suitors. In the scene I used to analyze, he asks her to leave and go to her room, but once the men start saying they want to lie with his mother, he tells them to stfu and that tomorrow they have to gtfo. These men are dangerous, and he as her son, and yes, as a man, probably wants to take care of him themself instead of watching his mother deal with them. Yes, he asks her to go to her room again towards the end but that’s because he and Odysseus are literally going to MURDER the suitors. He wants her to get out of the way, and again Penelope’s reaction to this says multitudes.

Fitzgerald:  “She gazed in wonder, turned, and so withdrew, her son's clearheaded bravery in her heart.”

Come on gang. Is that the reaction of someone who feels like her son is disrespecting her? He's brave! He's choosing to deal with 108 men on his own who disrespect and actively want to kill him, and Penelope admires the hell out of it! Anyways, I love odyssey Telemachus. I think the Wilson interpretation makes me so sad because in nearly all of the other ones you can see how he just wants to protect her and keep their home. He wants to be the “man of the house”, yes, but he is literally facing 108 men who are most likely much older than him and who fully bully him constantly. He is trying to grow up because if he doesn’t they can claim the role of man of the house and both he and his mother are going to be in a terrible position. Also btw to anyone who says his reaction to Penelope’s silence at Odysseus’s return is bratty, I think it’s a fucking hilarious scene because you can tell he pictured his parents reuniting so happily and emotionally after 20 and is literally so frustrated when she’s just staring at him. Give him a break he just killed 108 people to see this reunion and she’s just staring silently, ofc he's a little pissy about it. To wrap it up, here’s some of my favorite Telemachus Penelope reunion scenes because anyone who can read this and say he doesn’t love her makes me sad.

Fitzgerald: “Back with me! Telemakhos, more sweet to me than sunlight!  I thought I should not see you again, ever, after you took the ship that night to Pylos—  against my will, with not a word! you went  for news of your dear father. Tell me now of everything you sawl"  But he made answer: "Mother, not now. You make me weep.  My heart already aches—I came near death at sea.”

Literally mom stop crying you’re going to make me cry and I've been through so much, angsty teen behavior. Also look at her! She loves him! That's her boy! And that's his mom!

Pope: "Light of my eyes! he comes! unhoped-for joy!  Has Heaven from Pylos brought my lovely boy?  So snatch'd from all our cares !  —Tell, hast thou known Thy father's fate?  and tell me all thy own."  "Oh, dearest! most revered of woman-kind!  Cease with those tears to melt a manly mind,"  Replied the prince: "nor be our fates deplored,  From death and treason to thy arms restored.”

Brb fucking sobbing I love them leave them alone. Unhoped-for joy is fucking heartbreaking when you think about what Penelope's been through. Although peep the toxic masculinity at the end there. Read Pope. This whole long ass essay was begging you to read the Pope translation. Here's a cookie for making it to the end I love the odyssey and if nobody reads this i will be sad 🍪

[when-the-pawnn]

I love it! Thank you for sharing this She looks like Zatanna

I do have a euippe "face claim" if you want!

(Ohh no images hm. Ill reblog with her once you amswer)

Please share I would love to see it!

I didn’t realize it didn’t allow images but I just fixed that.

[when-the-pawnn]

I do have a euippe "face claim" if you want!

(Ohh no images hm. Ill reblog with her once you amswer)

Please share I would love to see it!

I didn’t realize it didn’t allow images but I just fixed that.

[when-the-pawnn]

Why do I never see anything about Diomedes and Euippe? This man is shipped with everyone but his wife 😭

[when-the-pawnn]

Rava was too nice to Kendall. She should have beat him with a baseball bat.

[when-the-pawnn]

Penelope’s not likely to have a child if she had to marry one of the suitors due to her age. So if the suitor had a child it would be through other means and if he succeeds in getting rid of Telemachus, said child would be the heir to Ithaca. Meaning the heir would not be of either Odysseus or Penelope’s blood, but through a new family line.

(I’m overthinking maybe but I was just thinking about how Penelope wouldn’t benefit from marrying one of the suitors)

[when-the-pawnn]

Penelope Taking Down the Bow of Ulysses (1768) by Angelica Kauffmann RA (1741 - 1807)

[when-the-pawnn]

I’m obsessed with finding artwork of the Odyssey, mainly Penelope. Whether it be paintings, illustrations, or scultptures. I’m going to be posting them on here because they’re too good not to share.

[when-the-pawnn]

Odysseus was afraid the entire year on Aeaea in the Odyssey.

Content warnings: Rape, Sexual Coercion, Sexual assault, Sex Work, power dynamics, this will also be long as fuck as I talk too much. This is NOT a "Circe the Goddess Hate Post". I call her out but that's it. I tried to keep this neutral but still making a point (Let me know if I gotta put more)

Lots of lovely folks on here have written great essays on what Calypso did to Odysseus as it's soooo blatantly obvious there. It literally states how he cried every day and how he flinched from Calypso, very straightforward on how he was explicitly raped.

But I've noticed that a lot of people are always iffy about Circe's situation (understandably so, it's not so in your face.) She's usually always mentioned in the "Odysseus never cheated! He was raped!" posts but then the evidence is only ever given against Calypso, and then mentioning how you can't say no or disobey the orders of an immortal and how it was in exchange for freeing his men.

WHICH IS ALL CORRECT!!! But!!!

There ARE immortal/mortal couples who genuinely love each other. Dionysus and Ariadne, and Eros and Psyche are examples. Apollo and Hyacinthus. Psyche indeed becomes immortal eventually and in some versions, both Hyacinthus and Ariadne do too. But even while mortal themselves, their immortal lovers still remained respectful and loving towards them and definitely doted on them. There are definitely power dynamics at play here but there's some nuance.

Odysseus and Circe's relationship, however, is very different. We all know he slept with her at the very least once. And that was in exchange for his men being returned to humans. That was the only time it was explicitly stated. With Calypso, it tells you every night he was enchanted and slept beside her. It was the narrator speaking but Odysseus is the narrator now and it's his story. If you think he lied, this probably won't change your mind anyway.

But even if it was a one-time thing, (which isn't the only interpretation and I will have points that talk about others) then why did he stay a year? What was he doing?

I'm doing a deep dive into the year he spent on Aeaea based on evidence in Book 10 and then the beginning of Book 12. Step by step, and honestly I'm writing this for Tumblr, not as a thesis so I will be a bit more casual but still using sources. To me, it's very obvious that he was uncomfortable throughout the text simply based on the language that is used. But it's very subtle and not an outright statement of "He's been crying every day."

BTW, just so we're clear, this is not a "Circe is the root of all evil, etc." type of post.

This isn't meant to villainize her. She's an immortal being and in mythology that changes things. Everybody is morally gray. I genuinely think if we were to ask her feelings on it, she'd probably be like "Oh, yeah! Turned his men into pigs! Strange little man he was." I don't think she gave a flying fuck.

I just simply get pissed tf off when people think Odysseus was fine. It honestly disturbs me how often I'll go on other websites YouTube and see everyone call him a whore and a womanizer. It's sexism at its finest because 1.) "MaN AlwAyS wAnTs sEx" and 2.) women can't rape/coerce. THIS IS SIMPLY TO LOOK INTO HIS FEELINGS ABOUT IT.

This is also only for Homer's Odyssey, using different translations. If you want to discuss this, (I'd be happy to! Just be nice!) DON'T BRING UP ANY OTHER WORKS.

With all that out of the way, come yell with me 🤗

I've read multiple translations, as I know there's going to be bias depending on who's translating. And having done so, each one has basically the same situations described the same so that's nice for consistency. Also, there are some parts in the story that are vague and that we'll never have answers to.

Odysseus first simply sees the smoke from her chimney and then sends his men in, after drawing lots Eurylochus leads half of the men to check out the house. I mentioned here vaguely how the 2 immortals he sleeps with are both introduced while singing and weaving, which could be seen as an enchantment (which to me is most likely. They both possess magic and are goddesses). So I'm just gonna move past that. Just take a peek and come back or just know that enchantment was likely.

Next, I'll see people often joke on Tumblr about how

"Odysseus says that Polites is his best friend yet only mentions him once!"

I think Odysseus mentions his best friend, the one to jubilantly go in first, to show WHY he would go through with this. How much these comrades mean to him. That's his best friend, and there are approximately 20 others who are now pigs as well. Could you knowingly leave one of your best friends to live a life like that knowing you could've done something?

[...]Circe—and deep inside they heard her singing, lifting her spellbinding voice as she glided back and forth at her great immortal loom, her enchanting web a shimmering glory only goddesses can weave. Polites, captain of armies, took command, the closest, most devoted man I had: ‘Friends, there’s someone inside, plying a great loom, and how she sings—enthralling! The whole house is echoing to her song. Goddess or woman—let’s call out to her now!’ So he urged and the men called out and hailed her. She opened her gleaming doors at once and stepped forth, inviting them all in, and in they went, all innocence.

(Fagles, Book 10)

In the Odyssey, it's never mentioned why she turns people into animals. I think they were turned into pigs because, throughout the Iliad and Odyssey, Odysseus is often associated with boars. His men are associated with him, therefore: 🐖 Piggy. From what we know, the lads were just eating her food. With how much Xenia and hospitality are a large part of the story, they probably thought they were safe. They were GUESTS. This is especially welcome after the Cyclops and the Laestrygonians. And it literally says "All innocence". They were simply naive.

Then Eurylochus runs back, so terrified that he couldn't speak at first. He then begs Odysseus to just leave the men behind. Odysseus has shown that he does TRY to save his men when it is truly not reckless to do so.

But I shot back, ‘Eurylochus, stay right here, eating, drinking, safe by the black ship. I must be off. Necessity drives me on.’

(Fagles, Book 10)

Then the famous warning from Hermes. I've seen folks bring this up when talking about this. YES, he is literally commanded by Hermes to not refuse her if he wants his men back in basically every translation. It sounds like Circe was warned as well. When? We don't know, but it sounds like Hermes didn't pick "sides" here.

Strange that he was still like, "Sleep with each other" to both, because he could've been like, "Circe, there's this guy named Odysseus. When he comes to this island, change his men back." But who knows, maybe it was Circe's idea from the beginning and Hermes went along with it. Just food for thought.

Now here’s your plan of action, step by step. The moment Circe strikes with her long thin wand, you draw your sharp sword sheathed at your hip and rush her fast as if to run her through! She’ll cower in fear and coax you to her bed— but don’t refuse the goddess’ bed, not then, not if she’s to release your friends and treat you well yourself. But have her swear the binding oath of the blessed gods she’ll never plot some new intrigue to harm you, once you lie there naked— never unman you, strip away your courage!’

(Fagles, Book 10)

But that doesn't explain why he was there for a year afterward! Nor if he himself was okay with it, which is what I'm trying to delve into as he wasn't.

Also the knife thing? She's still immortal. It was meant to startle her. Her dad is Helios. Odysseus would've been toast, literally.

Also note this exchange wasn't a "Yippee! Hermes says I'm going to get laid!".

...just approaching the halls of Circe, my heart a heaving storm at every step, paused at her doors, the nymph with lovely braids— I stood and shouted to her there. She heard my voice, she opened the gleaming doors at once and stepped forth, inviting me in, and in I went, all anguish now …

(Fagles, Book 10)

Another translation by Ian Johnston, (they all say the same thing essentially but trying to make a point.)

I continued on to Circe’s home. As I moved on, my heart was turning over many gloomy thoughts. After I had walked up to the gateway                                                of fair-haired Circe’s house, I just stood there and gave a shout. The goddess heard my voice.                      She came out at once, opened her bright doors, and invited me inside. I entered, heart full of misgivings.

HE👏WAS👏SCARED! The tone is solemn and suspenseful. He was just told that without Hermes' help with the root, he wouldn't be able to survive and bring back his men. Circe was dangerous.

He made her swear not to harm him.

Straightaway she began to swear the oath that I required—never, she’d never do me harm—and when she’d finished, then, at last, I mounted Circe’s gorgeous bed …

(Fagles, Book 10)

Please note that she NEVER promised that to his men. His comrades did NOT have moli in their systems. He had no way of truly ensuring their safety in any way from Circe.

He then refuses to eat or speak, literally "lost in grim forebodings". If he "just got laid", then why isn't he happy? Not many men can say that a goddess CHOSE to have sex with them. He did it to get his men turned back. It was an exchange. I don't think Circe is "Evil" so maybe it slipped her mind. Or yes, she could've thought, "Hey, I got what I wanted. He's handsome enough. Homer never shuts up about how hot this guy is He hasn't brought up the pigs yet. I'll just let this play out. Maybe HE forgot. I don't have to do anything." We don't know. But Odysseus probably felt like he got deceived.

"Hey, I did my part of the deal. I slept with you. Now do yours."

She pressed me to eat. I had no taste for food. I just sat there, mind wandering, far away … lost in grim forebodings. As soon as Circe saw me, huddled, not touching my food, immersed in sorrow, she sidled near with a coaxing, winged word: ‘Odysseus, why just sit there, struck dumb, eating your heart out, not touching food or drink? Suspect me of still more treachery? Nothing to fear. Haven’t I just sworn my solemn, binding oath?’

So she asked, but I protested, ‘Circe— how could any man in his right mind endure the taste of food and drink before he’d freed his comrades-in-arms and looked them in the eyes? If you, you really want me to eat and drink, set them free, all my beloved comrades— let me feast my eyes.’ So I demanded.

(Fagles, Book 10)

He doesn't trust her despite what she had told him that he should when they sleep together. He has figured out that while she will not hurt him, his men were not a part of that oath, the men he was trying to protect in the first place.

She is then moved by how they rejoice when they see one another again. While turning people into animals for funsies isn't cool and coercion is fucked up, I think she comes to see this group as not quite friends but I think she did find them entertaining in a way.

This is very strange but I've seen some folks say that since Odysseus was pissed at Eurylochus for still not believing him about Circe is proof that "Oh he was trying to defend her!". Which??? Uh, Eurylochus was literally questioning his leadership as a whole. Calling him reckless and shit. He is captain and he's the King, he can't let that shit slide. The text literally says "Mutinous". Also if I had to sleep with someone I did not want to especially if it was to save my friends and I got called names afterward I'd get fucking pissed too.

Only Eurylochus tried to hold my shipmates back, his mutinous outburst aimed at one and all: ‘Poor fools, where are we running now? Why are we tempting fate?— why stumble blindly down to Circe’s halls? She’ll turn us all into pigs or wolves or lions made to guard that palace of hers—by force, I tell you— just as the Cyclops trapped our comrades in his lair with hotheaded Odysseus right beside them all— thanks to this man’s rashness they died too!

They stay a year. Again it's never stated that Odysseus slept with her that whole time. You could interpret that. (Honestly, I feel Circe would get bored with him? She's a goddess, she's got more important matters than mortal men. And she definitely doesn't love him.)

His men DO have to bring it up that "Odysseus has forgotten his native land." Maybe they thought they could sneak out without her knowing??? I am fucking REACHING but hold on as Telemachus did because he knew Nestor would well, be Nestor and try to coax him with "Have a meal with us! Let me tell you about how badass I used to be in my youth." But to sneak away from a goddess? Without her permission? That won't end too well. Aeolus in the beginning kicked out Odysseus when he tried to ask for another bag of wind. If she didn't want him around, she could literally boot him out. While she didn't force him to stay like Calypso did, she didn't "release" him either.

We don't know if they've been asking for a long time. Odysseus does say to Circe that they have been begging him nonstop, but he could also be saying that to try and convince her. He's good at persuasion. I think while he knew he could rely on her for food, shelter, and good advice, he still didn't feel...SAFE with her. I think he was possibly avoiding her personally.

I think HOW he asks her to leave is important to know as well.

...but I went up to that luxurious bed of Circe’s, hugged her by the knees and the goddess heard my winging supplication: ‘Circe, now make good a promise you gave me once— it’s time to help me home. My heart longs to be home, my comrades’ hearts as well. They wear me down, pleading with me whenever you’re away.’

(Fagles, Book 10)

Throughout all of Homer's works, the characters grasp another's knees when they are desperate and are literally at the other person's mercy. Priam did when begging Achilles for Hector's body back. The man who literally killed his son and was defiling his body by dragging it around. Leodes grabs Odysseus' knees to beg for his life before Ody kills him. If he saw her as a friend, and not a captor, WHY DID HE FEEL THE NEED TO BEG IN ORDER TO LEAVE?! No one, who is in a healthy relationship, has to BEG for permission to leave. Or to "Break up", if you interpret them as still sleeping together.

And even Circe acknowledges that he is there against his will!

‘Royal son of Laertes, Odysseus, old campaigner, stay on no more in my house against your will.

(Fagles, Book 10)

[...]Odysseus, man of many resources, scion of Zeus, son of Laertes, don’t stay here a moment longer against your will

(A.S. Kline, Book 10)

This is probably another reach that you can ignore but the whole "they wear me down", could be trying to appease her. "Look, you're REALLY cool, it's actually my crew that wants to leave hahahah please don't kill them"

I mentioned before how Telemachus snuck away from Nestor but that was simply out of necessity because he needed to go home now. Not rest for the night. NOW. Nestor is just everyone's grandpa. Menelaus kind of talked more but Telemachus is very straight up in "Please I have to go now" and Menelaus immediately got things ready for him. He never has to beg and clasp his knees. Telemachus was never afraid. Menelaus is a fun uncle and Helen is your cool auntie.

Back to Circe! She tells him instructions for the underworld, they were in her bedroom. But that might've been the only way to speak with her. As even Penelope is usually away from the suitors when they are in her halls, Circe may have done the same. The text never states she played hostess physically. If she was hosting in the halls during the day, why did Odysseus wait until night to talk to her? He could've just asked her while she was on her throne in front of everyone. (He did so with the Phaeacians)

Or maybe he went alone because she only swore an oath to not harm him and so he didn't want his men near if she decided she didn't want to let them go. I could be missing something here so feel free to say something. Idk if this was a pride thing on how "I don't want others to see me beg".

She has info he needs in order to go home as well. She tells him to go to the Underworld.

She gave him new fine clothes and put on pretty clothes herself but that doesn't mean they had sex. Nausicaa gave him nice clothes as well but he never slept with her.

Then he leaves. Immediately. Not even doing a headcount as he didn't realize one of his men had died. (That was negligence on his part but he wanted out) He booked it, to the UNDERWORLD BY THE WAY. Circe even had to sneak the animals he needed for the sacrifice. Odysseus even basically said "She's a goddess. She can do things mortals can't" at the end of the book. And it almost feels...Numb? Solemn? Neutral? Gives a "It is what it is" vibe.

But Circe got to the dark hull before us, tethered a ram and black ewe close by— slipping past unseen. Who can glimpse a god who wants to be invisible gliding here and there?

(Fagles, Book 10)

She’d slipped past us with ease, for who can see a god move back and forth, if she has no desire to be observed?

(Johnston, Book 10)

She's a goddess. She has magic. She can do whatever the fuck she wants.

NOW ON TO BOOK 12!!! That was long! GET A SNACK AND WATER! LUCKILY THIS'LL BE SHORTER!

In Book 11, Odysseus swears, upon all his loved ones in Ithaca, to Elpenor that he'd give him a proper burial as he's been "unwept, unburied". So in Book 12, he sails back to Aeaea to fulfill his promise.

But you know what's funny to me?

He didn't tell Circe he was there.

He didn't even go to greet Circe himself. He sent his men to go get Elpenor's body.

The biggest clue that he didn't love/trust her is that if she was his "Affair partner" then why not go see her for "one last night together"?

SHE came out herself and pulled him aside to know what happened and then gave more advice.

I dispatched some men to Circe’s halls to bring the dead Elpenor’s body. [...]

Nor did our coming back from Death escape Circe— she hurried toward us, decked in rich regalia, handmaids following close with trays of bread and meats galore and glinting ruddy wine. [...]

But Circe, taking me by the hand, drew me away from all my shipmates there and sat me down and lying beside me probed me for details

(Fagles, Book 12)

In every translation, it talks about how he sits, and she lounges/lies down. That's not sex 🙃 In some translations, it even says he tried to be with his shipmates but she pulled him away!

So we lay down and slept beside our ship’s stern cables. But Circe took me by the hand and led me away, some distance from the crew. She made me sit, while she stretched out beside me on the ground. 

(Johnston, Book 12)

Then, she gives advice about the sirens, Charybdis, Scylla, and her father's Cattle. He tries to ask if he could save all his men. She scolds him for even thinking he could try. He again books it out of there.

I think we all know it wasn't "love". But I think a lot of people think Odysseus was willing and happy with whatever this was. "Friends with Benefits", if you will. I guess you could see it that way but I will say that makes me feel itchy with the whole power dynamic and fear. I don't think folks who have that arrangement have to beg on their knees to ask if they can leave though.

I mean the entirety of Book 10 gives me the vibes of "Laughing uncomfortably because you don't want to upset the other person". To just grin and bear it.

A lot of this was just putting the text here and picking it apart step by step. What you do with this is up to you. It's rambling while banging pots and pans together.

Maybe you see him as drugged the entire year and still sleeping together, as the moli "wore off". Even then, just because her magic can't affect him, there are plenty of natural concoctions that can be created that can affect mortals.

Maybe you see the entire year as sex work in exchange for shelter and food.

Maybe he was just alongside his men the whole time under her roof and was avoiding her after the exchange. After he got asked by his men to finally leave, he would start to walk up to that room only to freeze and turn around, thinking "One more day won't hurt. Should wait until I know she's in a sympathetic mood".

I beg of you, however, PLEASE understand that there was fear and coercion throughout his entirety on Aeaea. He wasn't staying to get laid. While there is so much going on and too many things that are left vague to really know exactly what happened, it is consistent that he was scared/numb. Lots of people go through with things they don't really want to do just to appease others. There are plenty of situations of sexual trauma where one person goes through something and the other has no idea the other person isn't okay. ESPECIALLY WHEN SOMEONE CAN HARM THE PEOPLE YOU CARE ABOUT AT ANY MOMENT!

Sexual trauma is a very complicated thing and while he was scared, he definitely wasn't as traumatized by her as he was by Calypso. Calypso was a torturous hell while Circe was a year of walking on eggshells, as he did still receive help from her and she even apparently taught him a special knot. Not comparable but I still think Circe should be acknowledged. As even Odysseus acknowledges Circe when talking about how Calypso held him captive, as @leynaeithnea and @akaittou have reminded me. Leynaeithnea's addition:

A. S Kline translation of the Odyssey, book 9 Calypso, the lovely goddess, kept me there in her echoing caves, because she wished me for her husband, and in the same way Circe, the Aeaean witch, detained me in her palace, longing to make me hers: but they failed to move my heart. she held him back from leaving - one way or another - he did not want to, she LITERALLY compares Circe with Calypso, - yes he uses a stronger word for Calypso (here "kept" vs "detained") than for Circe, but it is still not willingly that he stayed.

He would not have brought up Circe alongside Calypso if her affections had "wanted". It's wild because I read the Odyssey and kept thinking "Y'all are calling the sex slave a cheater? The guy who slept with a goddess to get his men back? The ultimate simp apparently doesn't love his wife??"

@atomicbelieverturtle ALSO reminded me about how Odysseus left in the fall during harvest. He most likely stayed a year to ALSO replenish his supplies.

For the repost abt Circe another reason he could've stuck around was cuz it was winter and sailing wouldve been difficult and then for summer he had to replenish supplies in which ever order. I personally think cuz he had to replenish supplies for summer but couldn't sail for winter but could sail again for the next summer

Things I'm adding that shouldn't affect the argument as it is not in the Odyssey but I want to mention as it's a "fun fact": Odysseus' dad was an Argonaut. Laertes probably met Circe as well, (or knew of her) with the whole purifying thing and maybe Odysseus heard his dad tell stories of her. Later myths also have Circe with the habit of turning her crushes (or their lovers) into something with Scylla and Picus.

In conclusion, Yeah, he was afraid of her. At least to an extent. And don't pull the whole "Ancient men didn't get raped". Male victims exist and deserve compassion for what was done to them and women are capable of sexual abuse. If you think otherwise, you are not a true feminist and Fuck you. I said in the beginning this'll be casual and I don't wanna write a fancy ending. You can still think Circe is neat but you have to know that this was fucked up.

If you think a lot of this is bullshit or wanna give more context or wish to yell with me but still know he wasn't alright on Aeaea, cool. If you want to point out mistakes or something I should keep in mind with interpretations then feel free to say so but give text evidence. If you try and bring up the Telegony and/or Madeline Miller's Circe, fuck clean off. This is Homer. If you call Odysseus a whore and not the malewife he canonically is I'll start biting. 😤

[when-the-pawnn]

Icarius and Odysseus

[when-the-pawnn]

“Penelope and Odysseus” by Henry Howard RA (1769 - 1847), engraved by Francis Engleheart (1775 - 1849)

[when-the-pawnn]

Both Robert Baratheon and Cersei Lannister spend their marriage thinking of someone else - Lyanna Stark for Robert and Rhaegar Targaryen for Cersei. They both cling to this highly romanticized fantasy of a marriage to this other person.

The interesting thing is, if they had married Lyanna and Rhaegar, they probably would not have been happy marriages either.

Robert would have absolutley cheated on Lyanna, like he did to Cersei. He might have been just as abusive to Lyanna as he was to Cersei. Lyanna’s strong personality would have been too much for Robert if he couldn’t handle Cersei without hitting her every time she spoke out against him.

As for Cersei, I don’t believe she is capable of being in love with anyone. I believe Rhaegar would have treated her better and that she would have his biological children, but she would absolutely cheat on him. I do also think that if there was one wrong move from Rhaegar, there would be no coming back from that to Cersei, unless she needs him for something that benefits her.

[when-the-pawnn]

jon snow: im a bastard. everyone hates me. i want to die. and im 14

tyrion for some fucking reason:

[when-the-pawnn]

“The Wedding of Ulysses and Penelope” by Jules Ferrario and engraved by A. Biasoli from Le Costume Ancien ou Moderne (1829)

Look at them being absolutely captivated by one another. Is the man speaking meant to be Icarius? Whoever he is and whatever he is saying is being completely ignored by the newlyweds, as it appears their attention is reserved only for each other.