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wondercourse · 2 months ago

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The Giant "Is RAMCOA, now OEA, antisemitic?" Debunk

Here's the last version. This one is... wow.

So here's the thing, this has taken me way too long, so here's the format:

- A summary of my point.

- A ramble about my point written forever ago.

- All the possible talking points discussed or debunked

You can just scroll to the bottom until you see "DEBUNK" if you really want to.

I'm tired. No one has time for this bullshit. This post isn't formatted the best--that's what I get for doing this on mobile. Take it as it is, the links are all included.

The ISSTD (the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation) and the OEA (Organized and Extreme Abuse) sig (special interest group) are not rooted in antisemitism. The "facts" against the ISSTD are twisted and unclear, and they aren't meant to help Jewish people or survivors. They discredit the ISSTD and the trauma basis of CDDs (complex dissociative disorders).

The Satanic Temple (TST) and Grey Faction (GF) aren't just protesting medical malpractice.

They believe that the DID diagnosis is the malpractice.

They believe that CDDs are a fad created by and from the panic of the 80s, that it's PURELY iatrogenic in nature (caused by therapists, iatrogenic is a specific arm of the fantasy theory) and therefore any proof that DID exists and is rooted in trauma is seen as some kind of direct insult to them. As if DID being real means that Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA) must be real, and SRA has always been, and always will be, an attack on TST.

They believe that SRA and Ritual Abuse (RA) are one in the same (good thing the ISSTD renamed it :) ), and that SRA cannot be separated from other conspiracy theories like MKUltra.

TST be like:

Alt text: a meme photo from The Office saying "They're the same picture".

The rumors and claims that you see talked about primarily come directly from a letter by The Satanic Temple and Grey Faction, written in 2019 to try to have the ISSTD's Continuing Education certification revoked. This is where the resurgence starts and what got lights on all this.

They (that is, TST and GF) seem to believe that this letter played a part in the name change, claiming that it scared the ISSTD.

For some reason, the CE certification thing seems to really stand out to GF and TST, and they can't quite keep their story straight about what the issue is-- whether CE Learning refused to accredit any courses on "mind control" (they didn't, the ISSTD created their own system for CEs and stopped hosting on CE Learning), or whether it's just because they're attacking a therapist who gave a mother -- that would go on to kill her son -- some resources, and decided that meant she should never practice ever again (because they're angry that the ISSTD implied that they're using the tragic case for their own gain, the drama between these two groups ffs).

The letter, the name change, the rise of QANON, and finally, the resignation of GF leadership, would result in what we're seeing today.

Grey Faction and the TST are the root of every over-exaggerated rumor you hear, and this post intends to prove that.

It's not so much about debunking every claim -- because yes, bad things happened to a lot of people during the panic -- so much as an attempt to arm you with more information about the topic or situation. That way, you can make your own decision about whether the claims hold up to scrutiny and support a narrative of antisemitism and conspiracy within the ISSTD, or whether TST and GF continue to push their own agenda and the same dozen lies from over 3 decades ago during a time of societal uncertainty.

Not everything you read is accurate and true, and this entire situation highlights the need for media literacy and investigation.

So let's go.

Summary:

So, all of these talking points can be DIRECTLY linked back to GF/False Memory Syndrome Foundation (FMSF), and them alone, they're the origin.

You can't spout those points and say, "But don't trust Grey Faction."

Those are the things you can't trust about Grey Faction.

You can't say that they're right about, and the source of, all of these things, but wrong about implanted memories, because ALL of their content is a story that leads UP to the existence of false and implanted memories, in support of TST and discrediting their relationship to the panic.

There's no other conclusion.

They only care about putting the TST in a better light, even if that hurts survivors.

And we know they don't care about Jewish people, because the TST is openly antisemitic.

The below is a direct quote from Lucien Greaves, massive TW for antisemitism:

Like, I think it’s okay to hate Jews if you hate them because they’re Jewish and they wear a stupid fuckin’ frisbie on their head [correct term: yarmulke or kippah] and walk around [and] think their God’s chosen people, but it’s not okay to hate somebody [‘born of Jewish blood’] just because their parents were stupid fuckin’ Jews and wore stupid frisbies on their head and thought the Jews were God’s chosen people […] Not everybody of Jewish blood is okay with me, it depends on if they follow the Jewish, uh… […] Satanic Jews are fine.

My ramble:

You don't get to pick and choose what to believe when it comes to Grey Faction. If their claims about the ISSTD being the instigators and maintainers of the satanic panic is true, then they must ALSO be correct about false memories.

They can't be a trustworthy source for some things and not for others, because these concepts are intertwined completely.

False memories and the idea that the ISSTD is filled with conspiracy theorists that still believe in SRA go hand in hand. Iatrogenesis, implanted memories, hypnosis, and coercion. They believe all memories recovered in therapy are false. The recently dissolved FMSF focused on all forms of abuse, getting involved in murder cases (testifying on the side of perpetrators to discredit witnesses and victims by proving that memory is unreliable), rape cases, and of course, incest cases (I tried to find a good link to put here, just google Elizabeth Loftus testifies). TST and GF are solely focused on DID and the ISSTD, but the idea is the same.

According to GF, memories of abuse, especially ANY form ritual abuse, are fake and implanted, and anyone who supports recovered memories are SRA conspiracy theorists, AND THE TST DOES NOT DO THE SRA. They are very, very adamant about this.

Do you see how this works now?

They are also the source of the claim that the ISSTD and RAMCOA are antisemitic, despite being antisemitic themselves.

No, seriously.

On the Psychological Projection of Antisemitism by Satanists

Doug Mesner (Lucien Greaves, Satanic Temple) Anti-Semitic Rant

I highly suggest giving this a read if you want to know more.

I contend that GF and TST are antisemitic (see above) and trying to shift attention, and are keeping the panic alive on their own (see below)

I'm going to elaborate with a disjointed ramble

Grey Faction can't be trusted because everything they do and say has the ultimate end goal of proving therapists implant memories of abuse in their clients. See my last post about SRA and the memory wars.

Like, if Grey Faction is correct about all their assertions about the ISSTD and its members, then they must ALSO be correct about false memories, because those ideas are completely intertwined

Alt text: A gif from Ralph Breaks the Internet with Ralph saying, "One cannot exist without the other."

And yet, the same people telling you that RAMCOA, now OEA, is antisemitic will also tell you not to trust Grey Faction and that they're not a reliable source

Alt text: A screenshot from a reblog, stating, "reminder that the Grey Faction sucks." For context, Morlock has been posting that RAMCOA/OEA is antisemitic.

Which is it?

We know, for a fact, that "false memories", as presented by Grey Faction and the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, are not nearly as black and white as they would have you believe. This article is going to be a fantastic starting point to understand what exactly FMSF, TST, and GF are arguing about memories, and the ISSTD counterarguments. It's a very long read, but well worth it.

Recovered memory therapy is the hot topic here. Grey Faction would have you believe that the ISSTD still practices this therapy to this very day.

Alt text: A gif from Are You Afraid of the Dark. A teen throws powder into the fire, setting the scene for a spooky story.

They don't.

Grey Faction's proof FOR false memories is the ALLEGED and SUPPOSED behaviour and words of the ISSTD members under fire.

Despite the numerous allegations of TST and GF misquoting and twisting quotes. You'll see this later.

These are the same stories people are repeating now, in support of the relation between RAMCOA, now OEA, and the satanic panic, and therefore antisemitism.

Lucian Greaves was literally told at one point that medical malpractice can be fought without attempting to discredit DID and his response was basically, "How?"

Hopefully this link works (you'll need to be logged in to see), but if it doesn't, search Lucien Greaves' interactions with TheRingsSystem on Twitter for a truly enlightening experience on how this motherfucker interacts with the world.

DOES NO ONE ELSE SEE THE PROBLEM HERE?

The Debunk

Before we start, I want to look at the type of lies and twisting that we're going to see, give you an example of what to look for. I came across this article while I was making this post.

ISSTD Exposed: A Culture of Conspiracy, Grey Faction

This is more about the ISSTD's CE credits and the name change. This line in particular caught my eye, because for once it had a link.

Numerous threads mention “Satanic ritual abuse,” usually abbreviated as “SRA.” Michael Salter, on the Board of Directors of the ISSTD, in one comment refers to “SRA” as an “insider term” that should be avoided when talking to “outsiders.”

Oh, ominous.

Given the opportunity, I'm going to look and see what really happened.

Let me paraphrase. A very awkward, potentially troll student account asks about the origin of the term mind control. She then goes on to describe how she's terrified of using this language around outsiders, as it'll destroy her credibility with its supernatural and conspiratorial background and create barriers in the conversation.

Michael Salter responds that the term originated during the Cold War along with brainwashing and is very outdated, and no, it's not received well outside of RAMC Specialist Circles. He tells her organized abuse is the better term and goes on to explain that organized abuse is a general category for sexual abuse involving multiple perpetrators, that includes practices such as ritual abuse, child exploitation material and mind control. He says, "We see a spectrum of ritualistic or controlling behaviour in organised abuse - ritual and torture is sometimes present, but often not, and it occurs in many different ways and at different levels of severity."

I speak directly with police and policy makers about the kinds of torture that we see in organised abuse, including the intentional inducement of dissociation, but I would never use the term "mind control" with non-specialists. It's associated with movies and television more than "real life". At the same time, it's a useful shorthand amongst people who specialise in RAMC and we haven't found a good substitute for it. It would be good to develop a more contemporary vocabulary I think.

This comes back.

The thread then goes on to discuss other options for terms and "soft exposure" through media being the connecting language that allows clinicians to communicate with a general audience, and bad/inaccurate representation in media and online. Another clinician responds that she agrees with Salter, explaining that she doesn't want other providers or their clients to misequate media depictions to real life.

Michael responds to her about an ongoing research project looking into the perception of the term, talks about differences around the world in the view of the terms, and discusses pedophile and other "cult-like" organized crime groups. That's about as close as we get to any mention of conspiracy theories or satanism.

They talk about whether it's better to choose terms that confront the horror of the experience, or if they try to conceal that horror with a more generalized term.

Tara Tulley, who we talk about below, makes an appearance to say that most people who contact her about RA only know SRA, and it's an incredibly inaccurate depiction of organized abuse. Tara says that she's struggling to get people to separate RA from SRA, and to change the terms they're used to.

Michael finally says:

Thanks Tara - agree that we should use the terms that people are comfortable with and understand. It's just that "insider" terms like SRA and RAMC are translating poorly to "outsiders" like law enforcement, other mental health contexts. I guess we just have to be mindful of our audience.

Remember what the complaint was. Go back. Read the actual thread from the ISSTD yourself. And then reassess.

Nothing about the ISSTD thread was inappropriate or hinted at conspiracy theories. It was actually an incredibly productive conversation for everyone involved. It really painted the picture that everyone wanted to separate old SRA ideas from the reality of organized abuse, or RA, as it was most commonly known.

In fact, it explains the exact thought process behind the usage of the terms and how they actually apply in the world. Like how its handled with police.

Because yeah, police kind of suck at handling and believing these kinds of claims.

Mostly because the TST won't let it fucking die. They won't stop equating it.

So here we are, with

Michael Salter, the conspiracy theorist.

Let's look at some of these claims directly from the horse's mouth and see where they come from.

There's now a second post, too! Exciting!

I want to start with the ONLY point I agree with.

Ritual abuse and satanic ritual abuse are inherently linked terms.

Which is why it's now called OEA.

Keep this in mind. We're arguing about something the ISSTD already addressed and fixed. RA and SRA are too closely linked for comfort. So they renamed it.

Back to that horse, though. This horse is different from other horses because this one believes that the abuse itself is real. Most don't, which is always a red flag.

This saves me from having to prove that, at least.

Starting from the top of post 1:

Alison Miller? Quack conspiracy theorist loses her license.

ISSTD Therapist Loses License Following Grey Faction Complaint

Alison Miller has turned in her license as a result of a Grey Faction complaint

Alison Miller was retired at the time of their complaint. There's no license to hand over. She hadn't practiced in years. GF claims, very boldly, that they are the reason her license is suspended, and they are the ones continuing to push this ridiculous lie.

Source: Grey Faction

George Bergen's claims against Colin Ross (and others, because Ross is not named in several of the filings).

Links to an affidavit from 1997. Bergen a member of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation. In fact, HE CREATED AND RAN THE CANADIAN MANITOBA BRANCH. And he's kind of racist against native people. Fuck that guy.

Bergen is filing the affidavits on behalf of his wife's sister, who committed suicide in 1986. There's VERY little information on his wife and the suicide, but it's important to note that his wife left him before he filed and has never retracted. He even writes about her as, "my estranged wife who has not (yet) retracted."

Just something for thought. I think there's some shit we don't know about here. Anyways, the case was tossed out. We touch on this again in the second post debunk.

The second link is... oh. Wow. Grey Faction and The Satanic Temple themselves.

Doug Mesner is one of the many names of Lucien Greaves, the antisemitic asshat mentioned above. He runs The Satanic Temple. He's also the one who posted and hosts the affidavit package. He helped Bergen write it.

It's getting kind of funny that the openly antisemitic person is accusing other people and things of being antisemitic. It's almost like a racist is attempting to divide marginalized communities into hurting each other using soulless buzzwords. How weird.

Source: FMSF

Braun and his license.

The link is to psychsearch, owned by Ken Kramer. He's wild. It's always funny to me when he comes up.

So, Braun did lose his license after the case of Patricia Burgus (not to be confused with Bergen above), but it's important to note that Burgus already claimed to have 20 personalities when she met Braun. He didn't give her MPD or implant memories.

For this, you need to use your imagination a bit. Braun and Burgus met in 86. She was his patient for 6 years, as the panic started and blew up. At the time, the purpose of the ISSTD was to quickly develop urgent treatment guidelines, which didn't yet exist. These doctors were flying by the seat of their pants. Yes, mistakes were made, but the ISSTD has always acknowledged that. These were unprecedented events, and no one knew what to do. The ISSTD members of the time took the stance that their clients, often children, were telling the truth.

It's not implanting memories if you're asking your client to elaborate.

Please remember that we don't know what happened in all of these cases. It is, unfortunately, more likely that clients came up with these stories themselves, and were encouraged by the therapists asking for more information.

Braun was not convicted of any wrongdoing, it was a settlement case paid out by the hospital's insurance company. Braun wanted to go to trial to disclose the transcripts, where SHE makes the claims. She even said in an interview, “It fit in with everything else [Braun] told me I was saying in therapy."

Braun would then go on to lose his license again for over prescribing medication in another case.

Source: Grey faction supporters twisting truth in a case that can't be disclosed due to confidentiality

Salter and the tunnels

Let's see what Salter says (PDF)

The findings of an archaeological dig at the McMartin preschool site, which uncovered recently backfilled tunnels and ritual articles in accordance with the children’s disclosures, came too late to counter the momentum of the backlash (Summit 1994a).

It's interesting that he cited something there. Hmmmm. I can't actually find the paper but I did find a FANTASTIC summary of it. Summit references an archeology report that was released in 1993 that found evidence of tunnels, which turned out to be something else unrelated. The revelation came to light in roughly 2002.

The paper by Salter was published in 2008, long before he became involved with the ISSTD. He was likely still in school when he wrote that short piece, and he doesn't typically include it on his CVs. I wonder why.

I also want to look at this.

It's really important because it talks about how believable the surveyor's report was and why so many fell for it.

Salter has never spoken of the tunnels again. We talk about Salter again in post 2.

Source: Grey Faction twisting truth for two decades

Tara Tulley?

What's linked is a consent agreement between Tulley and the board of licensing, hosted on the TST website. Much like Braun, this is a case of the board and licensee agreeing not to go to trial. Within the agreement, Tulley disputes the facts against her but understands that this is a quicker resolution for all parties.

The main issue actually seems to be her application for renewal not being filled out correctly, and Tulley explains that she didn't realize the investigation was active at that point.

But yeah, I'll admit, Tulley is a weird one. Very weird.

Source: Does Grey Faction have nothing better to do?

George Greaves?

I can't get this link to work. He was only ever a member of the ISSTD for a single year around 85 or 87. He was more involved in Ridgeview than the ISSTD. He lost his license in 94 and never really surfaced again. Why are we talking about him? Are we trying to say the ISSTD is terrible because of very short run-ins with shitty people?

Source: Grey Faction sure does like talking about him considering how long ago that was and how little he was involved.

Francois Saculla?

WAS NEVER INVOLVED IN THE ISSTD, YOU FOOLS. He attended the APA's MPD workshop in 79. Ohhhhh, scary. Get it right.

Source: the horse only

Eileen Avani?

In the linked consent order (again, like Braun), Avani doesn't admit fault, and the board actually accepts her explanation and proof that she wasn't actually offering services or treating the roommate.

It's frustrating, because this document doesn't actually talk about Avani not reporting trafficking or anything. I can't actually find any information on that. Where did the horse get those claims?

I'm genuinely asking, because even Grey Faction doesn't make that claim. I feel like people are just playing broken telephone with links.

Avani was assisting someone who had been trafficked in childhood. There was no duty to report, and she was passing the client along to and assisting another treatment provider.

And that's post 1.

I HIGHLY urge you to google each of the above names followed by ISSTD, and just take a glance at what comes up.

(Spoiler: it's ALWAYS Grey Faction, you'll be hard pressed to find anything that isn't directly GF, or citing them in their own article)

Jfc, okay, post 2, which is from the horse's friend.

This one is so much longer and annoying.

To start, again, the ISSTD came together to handle the surge in cases, seek support from other clinicians, and to develop treatment guidelines. The panic started BEFORE the ISSTD. The Chicago clinic opened to take the huge numbers of people claiming to have MPD, amid the growing satanic panic. The ISSTD didn't come into existence and then all these cases appeared. Patients from across the WORLD, already claiming to have MPD and memories of SRA, were being referred to the newly opened clinic, created to TAKE THIS SURGE IN PATIENTS.

The panic started in 1980, after Michelle Remembers was released, and the ISSTD formed in 84, not 83 as stated by the horse's bff.

But where did we get 83? From Richard Noll, star child of the FMSF. I talk more about him further down.

Spiegel, Kluft, Braun and Miller all responded to this article, calling it inaccurate, but because the article keeps getting posted and pulled, it's hard to find originals.

So did Frances, and we all hate him.

There are so many claims in this post that are uncited, and by the time you finish the articles, you forget what you were fact checking. I don't know where the claims about SRA in the DSM come from, because it's not in the article linked.

I mean, the link even goes so far as to speak positively of Braun and his changing mindset.

Many psychotherapists who have been vocal about a supposed epidemic of sexual abuse by well-organized satanic rings have grown more cautious of late. "There's clearly been a contagion, a contamination of what people say in therapy because of what they see on TV or read about satanic ritual abuse," said Dr. Bennet Braun, a psychiatrist who heads the Dissociative Disorders Unit at Rush-North Shore Medical Center in Chicago.

This would imply that Braun got better about all this over the years. If that's the case, why are we still saying he believes all that?

I'm starting to get the feeling that no one is reading their own links

But that's Braun, what about Colin Ross?

Ross was never found guilty or convicted of malpractice, as the horse's friend claims.

Ross has been named in several suits, but never convicted. Ross is the most vocal about what a confusing time this was, how hard it was to tell fact from fiction, and how hard it was to balance dis/belief with neutrality.

And of course, we link directly to Grey Faction about the eye beams. You might be surprised to learn that Ross has a sense of humor and entered a paranormal contest. It's really not that fucking deep, people.

More about Alison Miller, who says that Grey Faction is twisting the truth.

I don't know why they threw in Neil Brick without a single citation. Oh, wait, yes I do. Their only source is Grey Faction, and Brick talking about his experiences. Like fakeclaiming.

Michael Salter, this time they admit only Grey Faction is talking about it and there's no other sources. See above.

I'm not commenting a single Wikipedia link, and these people should be ashamed for including them.

Tara Tulley, see above, no she wasn't.

George Greaves, see above.

This is so repetitive, they all say the same fucking things, and it's all wrong and skewed the same way.

The way Grey Faction wants to present it.

The wording of the next paragraph is SO telling.

The ISSTD has annual conferences, each being either recorded or documented, several of these being notably controversial. In 1988 they aimed to verify cannibalistic satanic cults who participate in human, specifically child, sacrifices, this was investigated and then debunked by the FBI.

Almost like, they talked about something to get more information on it, and got that information.

How dare they.

From 1990 to 1998 ISSTD conference guest panelists had been accused of being Satanists if they portrayed any skepticism towards the connection between DID and SRA; this is documented in several instances. (No link, An Interview with Frank Putnam, Part II." ISSTD News)

Are you saying you couldn't find a link to support you? Or are you saying that you couldn't find an interview with Putnam II? There you go. I highly suggest actually reading this to see what he ACTUALLY says. This is the line that got me. "I was accused of disrespecting victims." I think these arguments are being framed way more negatively than they should be. I don't think this was about upholding SRA conspiracy theories, so much as balancing skepticism when faced with patients' claims. It ignores that Putnam HIMSELF was called a satanist.

Clearly not everyone within the ISSTD held the same beliefs, so I'm not sure what people are hoping to prove here.

The horse's friend then goes on to link to the TST, saying the only source of the claim is Grey Faction, and it's just the TST talking about a Grey Faction letter.

TST owns Grey Faction. Never forget that.

NONE OF THESE LINKS ON THE TST SITE WORK, I'M GETTING SO FRUSTRATED

We're linked to a letter by Evan Anderson, Grey Faction leadership that would resign in 2024 because of how much the TST was inserting themselves in Grey Faction and trying to control their actions. With Anderson gone, Greaves is now in charge.

Anderson said,

I ignored a lot for the sake of the campaign. I no longer can. I can recognize a witch hunt, a budding culture of paranoia and conspiracism.

Hmmmm, interesting timing.

Already we should be calling bullshit, just because of how stupidly hard it is to find ANYONE other than Grey Faction talking about it.

The horse's friend then goes on to incorrectly state that the FMSF started because of the ISSTD, which is wrong. The future members of the FMSF were pushing false memories in the 70s. Read this post. (This is where you can find more information on Noll's associations with and support of TST.) Their claims exist outside of SRA. They want to discredit ALL survivors.

Then they finally go on to say that they tried not to use only Grey Faction as their source, but did they achieve that?

FUCK NO.

Every single reason cited for why RAMCOA, now OEA, is antisemitic, and for conspiracies existing within the ISSTD comes directly from Grey Faction, and happened DECADES AGO.

But don't trust Grey Faction.

WHICH IS IT, THEY CAN'T BOTH BE TRUE

Do you have any idea how many members are part of the RAMCOA/OEA sig? And we keep talking about the same 6 or so people, and theories and thoughts from over 40 years ago that those people DON'T ACTUALLY STILL BELIEVE. I think this post by TST might put the TST's and GF's goal best.

According to The Satanic Temple’s spokesperson, Lucien Greaves, “We are very happy that the board moved to revoke the license of Tara Tulley, but Tara Tulley is only one member of the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation, an organization largely comprised of mental health professionals who subscribe to bizarre and harmful conspiracy theories that some of them impose onto their clients, burdening the mentally vulnerable with crippling, fearful delusions, and propagating destructive QAnon-like paranoia. It is our position that the mental health profession should do more to rid itself of this embarrassment and ensure that those licensed in the field adhere to empirically-supported clinical practices. It is our position that the ISSTD should lose all professional standing, and they should not be allowed to administer Continuing Education Units to professionals who attend their conspiracist lectures.”

The OEA sig is one of 12 that the ISSTD runs. In 2022, there were only 29 members of the OEA sig, and it by no means includes all of the members of the ISSTD that work outside of OEA. Other sigs include acute care, child and adolescent, creative art therapies, eating disorders, neurodevelopmental disabilities, EDMR, and vicarious trauma.

None of that matters, though. The TST and GF want to see the ENTIRE ISSTD burned to the ground.

The timing of this surge in RAMCOA talk coincides with the TST/Grey Faction rift, as Greaves and his chronic online-ness took over.

And what is Greaves? A racist, a man whose sole goal is to silence survivors, and an ISSTD hater.

Knowing a good deal more about the situations above, go back to that original letter and reread the complaints.

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