y-rhywbeth2 - Tumblr blog

[y-rhywbeth2]

It just occurred to me that there might be a way to make a headcanon to tie in the lore of Orin's dagger (that Bhaal was killing in back alleys in the place where Baldur's Gate would someday stand, despite him predating the existence of alleys in the area) with the lore from Lord of the End of Everything (he's from High Netheril), and also explain what the Undercity is and where it came from.

So High Netheril was composed of enclave cities, which were enchanted to fly. When Karsus and Jergal wrecked the Weave those went smashing straight into the ground, leaving behind only refugees who managed to get out one way or another (Bhaal and Bane apparently amongst them). The empire of Netheril was focused over what is now the Anauroch Desert, but some enclaves floated elsewhere, such as Ythryn, which was situated far North in the Icewind Dale. At least some cities, such as Ythryn and Undrentide, are now subterranean, buried beneath the earth/sand/ice.

Bhaal's mortal life was apparently spent in the flying city called Rdiuz - if that city was flying over the spot where Baldur's Gate would one day be built, crashed and was buried, was forgotten except for by, say, its former spymaster/government hitman turned god... he would technically have been murdering in the back alleys of a city before the Gate.

There is the question of why Bhaal has a temple in the ruins of a city that died before his ascension, but that wouldn't necessarily stop him sending followers down there to build one/hijack an old temple of Jergal when civilisation kicked off in the area and that smuggling hub that will one day be a major city developed.

So Orin, Durge, and before them, (kind of) Sarevok, are/were living in the long-dead forgotten city of their father and ancestors in this headcanon. Hey, some of those undead haunting the place might be their grandparents! Or great-grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins... fully mortal half-siblings? Step-parents?

[y-rhywbeth2]

That would disqualify him as far as I know; he wouldn't be a Patriar, just married to one. You have to be born one by "issue of body" as I've once seen noble inheritance termed. So a parent must be a Patriar: this social class is ridiculously elite and cliquish and the origin of that is "our ancestors were the families who basically built this city". If you're not related to those people, you don't count to them.

at least it justifies my “nah he doesn't trance like regular elves” headcanon

Torilian half-elves can reverie, if they choose, and Astarion, in-game, reveries (it's shown in some of his origin content).

Although it goes without saying that you can cherrypick and headcanon whatever you want: D&D lore is a pick'n'mix.

Hmm...

"Magistrate" is going to refer to judge, as lawyers are not a thing. -

Astarion was definitely working in a judge capacity: "A gang of vagrants, a tribe of wandering 'Gur', took issue with a ruling I'd made." | "A Selûnite necklace, if I'm any judge. And I am. [laughs]" -

Apparently judges in Baldur's Gate are chosen from amongst the ranks of the Patriars (because of course they are) -

Human nobility is closed ranks, especially in the Gate. The only non-human Patriar family in existence is the dwarven Shattershield family. You might however, find an elf who married into one. That would be permitted, if looked down upon (you're either marrying below your station to a commoner, or your spouse's Evereskan noble house is liable to die of shame). -

In the Realms, a the offspring of an elf and a half-elf is classified as an elf mechanically. Half-elf + elf = elf | Half-elf + human = human. | Half-elf + half-elf = half-elf.

So for Astarion to be asked to preside over cases in the courts and be allowed to make rulings he has to have human ancestry tying him to a Patriar family - most likely a human grandparent. That would lead to the question of whether the elven relatives were from a noble house (awkward: the Evereskan nobility are traditionally classist as hell and do not like humans), or just random commoners (human nobles marrying random elven servants has been known to occur).

OR

That charlatan background predates his unlife and he somehow lied his way into making people think he was a member of a Patriar family. Although he originally had the noble background, so... who knows. (Although that could technically indicate new money, that would bar him from being a judge, as that's not a Patriar.)

[y-rhywbeth2]

Banite response to Cyric being their new god: "Clearly Bane is just the superior deity and he has taken the portfolios of those two idiots and changed his name to Cyric.*"

Bhaalyn response: "Clearly Bhaal changed his name and the Banites are liars who can't cope with the fact that their god sucked so they're trying to steal our god."*

Myrkulites, while the other two are fighting in the background: "Yay, new god! We named him Cyruk and we think he's really neat!"

*Cue internal divisions as arguments between different flavours of old-guard vs syncretists kick off. Luckily Cyric likes chaos.

[y-rhywbeth2]

Found another 2e book with the morons in it (who have to share an entry)

Not much new, though this caught my eye and I have no idea why this made me laugh:

"The followers of Bhaal in urban areas have almost universally switched to worshiping Cyric, to the extent of adopting the new god's vestments and ceremonies. They refer to the power they venerate as Cyric, or Cyric-Bhaal, to differentiate him from the lesser aspects worshiped by former Banites, whose god was utterly destroyed, and who have erroneously declared Cyric to be their god as well. Relationships between the Bhaal-Cyricists and the factions of the other believers of Cyric are heavily strained and often break into open conflict."

Cyric-Bhaal, the real Cyric who is the new form of Bhaal and not the fake, less impressive Cyric those loser Banites think they're worshipping because their barbarous Bane - who is inferior to our blessed Bhaal - clearly just got totally annihilated like the loser he is.

And then they get into fist fights over it.

"The rural followers of Bhaal [the Deathstalkers] retain their belief in the god, pointing to the fact that they still receive their accustomed magical spells, so someone must be home. The schism between urban and rural Bhaalites continues to grow, with ambushes reported between rival factions."

And then the Brethren of the Keen Strike has declared them heretics, and now the filthy Cyric Converts and the Real Bhaalists™ are murderhoboing each other.

...

"There are those who declare that the three are not dead, but only in exile or in hiding and will return to plague the Realms again."

Realmslore, since forever: "You will never be free of these three and their stupid plans."

[y-rhywbeth2]

I wonder if Bhaal ever had any fully mortal children. Like, before he became a god.

It took the adventurers known as the Dark Three decades of work and research adventuring and to work out what they were doing and to break into Jergal's house, and even before the adventuring they had whole daily lives and careers and shit. The human then known as Arabhal had plenty of time to practice his absentee/terrible fatherhood skills pre-Lord of Murder.

[y-rhywbeth2]

...having been grumpy about the acting-like-being-an-heir-is-a-given-fact thing, I will admit that Bhaal does tend to babble about being owed power by your divine blood.

He's also lying and manipulating you towards your death and that of your siblings, but BG3 feels like it's suggesting that's a legitimate thing outside of Bhaal manipulating you, which... not really? You can, but again, loophole more than legitimate. "Heir" implies intent for you to inherit of which there is none.

[y-rhywbeth2]

I imagine Durge is actually more in line with the Five in terms of plan, rather than any idea of actually inheriting the Throne of Blood: I don't know whether they were raised Bhaalist (Yaga-Shura, at least, was) but the plan was that they would restore Bhaal to godhood and then serve as his exarchs as lesser divinities in some kind of weird family business... after manipulating and slaughtering all their other siblings in his name.

You meet three of them serving on the Murder Tribunal. They seem to be happy there, I guess.

[y-rhywbeth2]

"I had a brother, named Sarevok, and out conflict was brutal. I am not destined to a peaceful end, Cernd. I am fuel, not an heir. That is my secret"

And that there is something that bothered me in BG3 in Durge playthroughs: despite Larian kinda portraying it like they are and it's some sort of commonly accepted fact, Bhaalspawn are not considered or intended to be the heirs to the Throne of Blood, it wasn't on Alaundo's prophecy, and they are in no way ever truly intended to actually take Bhaal's place. Bhaal sure as hell never had that in mind, unless it was for them to seize his old mantle so he could hijack them.

Sarevok got the idea from an ex-priest of Bhaal who missed his status and was trying to make a new god for himself, and it later turned out that Charname was part of a larger prophecy that might allow them to take Bhaal's place. Sometimes Bhaal lies about things to manipulate you into doing what he wants.

"Heir" implies legitimacy, the only way godhood is on the table is by a loophole.

Even if Durge is special and daddy's favourite and everybody isn't just lying and telling them that to make them play along, Bhaal would still never actually share power unless he's the one in total control, basically ruling through them. And as they themselves say in the prayer for forgiveness, their end purpose is still to die.

(Also considering the WotC timeline... yeah. That second line is brutally true.)

Cernd: "If you succumb to his taint further, I will act, for it may be more your own doing. A god is a god, but they are only as strong as the power we give them." Charname: "Wise words, but still only words. You don't know, and can't know, what it is really like."

This however, I do feel was a little better portrayed in BG3. Cernd isn't wrong that Bhaalspawn have responsibility for their own actions, but the struggle with Bhaal was mostly "tell don't show" bar a specific stretch of the game and could've used more willpower rolls and equivalent. (So could BG3, but at least it had them.)

[y-rhywbeth2]

Cernd: "I have a concern as a servant of nature. I... I don't know how to phrase this, but are you... normal? Something is not quite right, and I fear it might be you." Solath: "What... what exactly is it you seem to sense?" Cernd: "All of nature's creatures live in some measure of harmony with her. You are not in opposition as such, but you are discordant. You do not have quite as much in common with her as her other creations. You look like a duck and quack like a duck, but sister, you ain't a duck."

I don't normally take Cernd in the party, but I do have to admit "Sister, you ain't a duck" as a way to describe Bhaalspawn has lived in my head forever and I do enjoy seeing it again.

I also recall Melissan telling me that a halfling Bhaalspawn is also an "abomination" and saying that Bhaal's offspring are "an abomination in all their forms" or something along those lines, but I like the duck thing better.

[y-rhywbeth2]

"...gods can bring about unlikely or otherwise impossible births. Usually to ‘mold’ Chosen or prepare backup future host bodies. However, it’s VERY rarely done because it costs (permanently lost) a small amount of divine power, and because unless the deity wants to just waste that power, the rearing of a "godborn" takes a lot of time, attention, and effort. And any godborn is a juicy target for rival deities. So it's done only as part of "long game" elaborate strategies, not out of Zeus-like lust."

Hmm.

[y-rhywbeth2]

Mystra and selecting Chosen (and who's worthy):

“Worth” to Mystra is loyalty to her and to her aims (spreading magic to all who won’t use it to keep magic from others), durability (the ability to withstand the horrible stresses of prolonged Weave-work, that have worn out several Chosen in the past), the Gift (that is, the ability to wield the Art = arcane magic), and incorruptibility (the ability to wield such power without succumbing to the temptation to misuse it, which was Sammaster's downfall and bars Manshoon from becoming a Chosen). The Weave is a mighty and magnificent thing, but it’s also incredibly powerful, and that sheer power is beyond some mortals to wield with any precision and without being mentally overwhelmed. So ‘tough cookies’ who can remain true to Mystra and themselves are what’s needed. Mystra doesn't send individuals on formal quests when she needs new Chosen, and rarely needs or wants new Chosen (and so few measure up; that's why she took a direct hand, to put it delicately, in birthing the Seven), but she does covertly test her Chosen to make sure they aren't succumbing to temptation [i.e. power, and the lure of using it to "fix" the world or do as the wielder pleases] [...] "Mystra is one of the few deities to think she herself incurs a moral cost by making a mortal into a Chosen, knowing what she's doing to them. It doesn't mean she won't. It means she won't create a new Chosen lightly."

I heard something about Ed Greenwood once saying that he pictures Mystra as Neutral, not Good (which she was, until Midnight got written in): I didn't find it but I did find this, which I found interesting and it made me think of Mystra and Gale.

I only know about Quilé Veladorn, but yes, Mystra and her baby future Chosen engineering. Mystra, what were Gale's regularly scheduled temptation tests? ...Did you put that orb in front of him or was that all him?

And "Using power to fix the world is forbidden" - Mystra (Mark III), who already tried that.

[y-rhywbeth2]

"The so-called Bhaalspawn grew up haunted by dreams of death and found themselves imbued with strange powers. Age had little effect upon them once they had grown to maturity..."

I was already sort of aware of the extremely vague aging of Bhaalspawn in 5e, but it's nice to have it confirmed again. While I acknowledge that certain Bhaalspawn have aged in this edition, I'm still going to link it to 3.5e's "they're immortal." Hey, no Bhaalspawn has ever died of old age, so there's nothing to contradict that.

I will also be taking "Bhaalspawn had their nightmares all their life growing up, not just when they hit 20" and running with it.

(I'm not entirely clear how they age in this edition. They age, but don't grow infirm, and Sarevok expects to be around for generations to come despite already being 100+ and apparently supposed to be looking like he's 60. Immortality without youth? Elminster-style? How does it impact Bhaalspawn whose mortal ancestors have lifespans longer than humans? While the tabletop oneshot with the VA's wasn't canon, I know Imoen cameo'd and she hasn't aged a day in that.)

[y-rhywbeth2]

"The [surviving Bhaalspawn] makes an involuntary, bone-crackling, flesh-tearing transformation as Bhaal's essence conentrates into one being. The victor morphs into the hulking, blood-soaked, corpse-like form of the Bhaalspawn Slayer."

Beating my favourite dead horse again: "Corpse-like". Do you read that Bioware? Larian? Even the weird Bhaalspawn variant of the Slayer is supposed to be corpse-themed!

...Also that sounds really painful.

[y-rhywbeth2]

"The fissures that appear in any church - whether they result from the emergence of new factions within a church, the partial splitting off of sects or affiliated orders from a church, or the recognition through excommunication of heresies outside a church - serve as a forum for a divine being to explore new philosophies and thus shape the evolution of the faith. However, just as mortals are slaves to the divine, bound to obey the teachings of the god if they wish to remain within the faith, gods are slaves to their followers, bound to represent the consensus that emerges among the followers of a faith. For example, if a sect emerges within the church of Laplander preaching that the Morninglord is Amaunator reborn, then Lathander has one of three options; He can embrace this new belief, thus making it true; he can effectively ignore the new belief, thus allowing diversity to persist within the faith and weaken the absoluteness of his authority; or he can reject the new belief as heresy, thus splitting the ranks of his followers and reducing his divine strength. "Religious leaders, involved in an ongoing dialogue both with the deity and the body of the church, are either a never-ending source of such tensions as they introduce new concepts into such conversations, or defenders of the status quo as they argue against new interpretations - or occasionally both, depending on the circumstances. In a sense, how well a religious leader builds a following for new ideas of his own or others or suppresses support for the new ideas of others is a measure of his influence within a church. A powerful spiritual leader can shape both the body of the faithful and the nature of the divine during his tenure in the role." - Power of Faerûn

Interesting to read in light of what seemed to be the growing schism between Orin and Durge's clashing interpretations of Bhaalist doctrine, and how their beliefs and the way they affect the rest of the clergy might actually affect Bhaal back.

...I want to invent so many heresies.

[y-rhywbeth2]

@smehur i am mindblown. i had no idea that he existed outside of bg3, let alone in such a bizarre capacity. sidenote: pardon me if/when i ask about things that you address in older posts - the dash shows latest first and i have no impulse control. that said, can you uh... undelete?? this is wild stuff.

Deletion is permanent (and I still don't know how I managed it by accident), but I still have the stuff (alright the food is more than "slightly out of date", but it's still extreme):

It can get so much worse the further downhill it goes... Martial law and mass executions and heads on sticks worse.

In fairness to the candidates for Bhaal's Chosen in the campaign/adventure/whathaveyou, including Ulder, Bhaal is influencing them - he can impart the urge to slay upon mortals, as he does to his children (but with them it's 24/7)

Though on the other hand, Bhaal can only tap into the hatred and impulses that already exist in a person and went out of his way to pick the three most compatible pawns in the city. As his description goes, "Ravengard is not a zealot or a fascist - not yet, anyway."

I assume in the BG3 version of events he didn't get too bad (as he wasn't Chosen)

[y-rhywbeth2]

Hmm...

"Magistrate" is going to refer to judge, as lawyers are not a thing. -

Astarion was definitely working in a judge capacity: "A gang of vagrants, a tribe of wandering 'Gur', took issue with a ruling I'd made." | "A Selûnite necklace, if I'm any judge. And I am. [laughs]" -

Apparently judges in Baldur's Gate are chosen from amongst the ranks of the Patriars (because of course they are) -

Human nobility is closed ranks, especially in the Gate. The only non-human Patriar family in existence is the dwarven Shattershield family. You might however, find an elf who married into one. That would be permitted, if looked down upon (you're either marrying below your station to a commoner, or your spouse's Evereskan noble house is liable to die of shame). -

In the Realms, a the offspring of an elf and a half-elf is classified as an elf mechanically. Half-elf + elf = elf | Half-elf + human = human. | Half-elf + half-elf = half-elf.

So for Astarion to be asked to preside over cases in the courts and be allowed to make rulings he has to have human ancestry tying him to a Patriar family - most likely a human grandparent. That would lead to the question of whether the elven relatives were from a noble house (awkward: the Evereskan nobility are traditionally classist as hell and do not like humans), or just random commoners (human nobles marrying random elven servants has been known to occur).

OR

That charlatan background predates his unlife and he somehow lied his way into making people think he was a member of a Patriar family. Although he originally had the noble background, so... who knows. (Although that could technically indicate new money, that would bar him from being a judge, as that's not a Patriar.)

[y-rhywbeth2]

Fun shit you get as Chosen of Bhaal, which is not as fancy as Bane's 3.5e chosen, but whatever:

Full immunity to poison and disease.

You... gain the ability to skitter rapidly up the walls and weird superhuman jumping abilities - Why walk anywhere when you can leap to a high perch, or skuttle up walls and generally be very unsettling instead?

You're harder to hurt, unless the damage is caused by magic.

Your attacks can inflict paralysis.

Nightmares where Bhaal taunts you and keeps trying to send you to pick fights under the guise of "advice". Also divine secrets, I guess.

What I'm getting from this is that the Chosen of Bhaal are some kind of jumping spiders in human form.