#Aarne-Thompson index

[petermorwood]

The 2024 International Discworld Convention in Birmingham was great fun, with bright new faces, familiar old faces and the sort of catch-up gossip that goes on all weekend when our last DWCon was 2018 (2020 was COVID, 2022 was My Bestie's Wedding).

There were some Not-Seen faces too, since WorldCon happening the very next weekend in Glasgow may have meant a choice of One or The Other. There'll be another DWCon in 2026, but it'll be a few years before another Worldcon is "just up the road".

Of course there were Other Reasons for missing faces, because Time isn't the only thing that passes between cons. :-(

Anyway, I took a full week off active posting - queued reblogs could take care of themselves though some of THOSE may reappear with Useful(?) Comments - and now, as has been said elsewhere:

"Well, I'm back." :->

*****

This is the Stith Thompson Index of Folklore Motifs, as I remember it from the School library more than half a century ago.

Now it's the Aarne-Thompson-Uther index, which suggests it's even bigger.

And I bet, somewhere in all those cross-referenced motifs and tropes, there's one which describes what this cat is doing.

"Helpful Animal (319.7.5) rewards Hero Kindness (247.3.3) with (a) advice; (b) encouragement; (c) warning; (d) guidance; (e) a combination of several or all, in varying sequence."

Something like that, anyway.

If I had cause to write the action in that clip, I'd be sure to mention the cat was carrying salt, not flour (Because Reasons) and that the little pause halfway to ensure a good flow wasn't done by accident.

I'm not making this stuff up, BTW: ask @dduane! :->

[soulgalaxywolf]

Yesssss! Fairytale video les goooo. I really loved this video from Noralities as she goes DEEP in the Sleeping Beauty lore.

I've been having trouble writing for the longest time, and this video made me feel excited to write again.

I loved taking folklore class, and this reminded me of it 😁

[animecarcrash]

does anyone know where i can find an online version of the complete Aarne-Thompson-Uther index??

[pseuddamntired]

I think it would be fun to challenge people to write stories promoted only by categories in the aarne-thompson-uther index. With the optional additional challenge that the genre/style is NOT folk tale or fable.

Categories such as “war between birds (insects) and quadrupeds” and “which bird is father?” and “innocent slandered maiden” and “suitors at the spinning wheel” and “seemingly dead relatives” and, possibly my favorite, “cases solved in a manner worthy of Solomon”

I’m finding a lot from this table of tale types: https://libraryguides.missouri.edu/c.php?g=1083510

[professorlizzard]

ATU-130

ATU-130 manifests as a group of animals. The animals seem to be of advanced age. Manifest location is usually living quarters mainly used as hideouts of illicit of organizations. After manifesting, the animals will assault the residents, driving them out, after which they claim the residence for themselves. Regardless of the previous disposition of the ex-residents, they will be too terrified to return.

If such manifestation occurs, submit the group as a new entry in the dossier of Groups Of Interest.

[polyteleology]

If you want to have a look at the ATU (Aarne Thompson Uther) Index of Folk Tales:

The Multilingual Folk Tales Database (which includes the ATU Index) is saved on the Internet Archive

The Kalevala Society Foundation has PDF copies of the 2nd printing in 2011: Part I, Part II, and Part III

GUYS THIS IS AMAZING

SERIOUSLY

6000 YEARS

STORIES THAT ARE OLDER THAN CIVILIZATIONS

STORIES THAT WERE TOLD BY PEOPLE SPEAKING LANGUAGES WE NO LONGER KNOW

STORIES TOLD BY PEOPLE LOST TO THE VOID OF TIME

STORIES

[moon-meerkat]

dresses in ATU 510B

[ghostjelliess]

Come now and listen. I know it’s exciting. Yes, this is where I grew up. Yes, I can speak-- no, the castle is over that hill, we’ll be there by morning. I’m sure your grandmother is very excited to meet you. It’s time to sleep now, or you’ll be yawning in front of the queen. Okay, one bedtime story, but only one. What was that? Why didn’t we come sooner? Well…. What now? One question at a time dove, you’re bouncing off the walls, now sit. Those are just decorations, they have a winter holiday. No. I don’t celebrate with them. Now sit, I’ll read you a story. 

Yes, I’m reading it … right now, sit. I know the road is bumpy little dove, but look at all these cushions…. Are you comfortable? Okay, I’ll begin. 

They tell it different in the city, but… yes, I know that’s your favorite part, now sit still. 

They tell it different in the city, but when King Wouter III toured his small land for a second wife, he plucked Pietrenella out of a butcher’s line of seven daughters, born to a world that valued them only as bodies for bartering influence, wealth, children, or labor—oh, like that’s changed. I’m sorry, I know, I know, I promised. Yes, yes, I’m reading, reading only. 

After a short life spent following her own mother’s instruction in beauty, and thoroughly practiced in caring for six younger siblings, Pietrenella was beyond prepared to step into the role of… mother. Is this a fairytale or a biography? Alright, don’t get sassy. 

Before she was the Nation’s Mother, that quintessential figure immortalized on every facade and coin, starved thin and dragging that heroic wheelbarrow of packed… meats and broths… meats and broths? Meats… and broths? Dragging that heroic wheelbarrow of packed meats and broths… that would save them all, she was just a butcher’s daughter, accustomed to sacrifices for the greater good. 

Sigh.

No, I’m not crying. I’m… no, I’m not mad at you little dove, I’m sorry for slamming the book shut. I think… I think you might be old enough to hear a secret story. Yes, I know you don’t want me to call you little dove anymore, but you still let me read you fairytales, hm? How about I tell you a different version. I know The Great Queen Pietrenella is your favorite, but I’ve got a different one for you. Yes, different like how they tell it in the city. Are you all tucked in? Sure, I can brush your hair. You’re right, it is getting very long. Sorry, I caught a tangle, I’ll be more careful, I’m sorry dove. Do you forgive me? Oh good. Alright, I’ll start from the beginning. 

They tell it different in the city, but, here’s how the ghosts tell it in the castle: 

Continue reading

[runawaymun]

@mielwriting

re this post bc it's too long for me to fit in a normal tumblr reply:

I'd love to! (Most, but not all) western depictions of dragons envision them as monsters -- either good or evil. Many legends paint them as greedy and jealous. They live underneath mountains and hoard gold. They take princesses and lock them in a tower. A hero eventually comes to slay the beast. This is, of course, an overgeneralization because there are also a few tales in which they are wise and lend advice, and there are a few rare exceptions in modern tales where dragons are as intelligent as humans - or more intelligent than humans, but they are also just as often depicted as like...basically a really intelligent animal. They're a type of monster. Chiefly: they're aggressive, jealous, and possessive.

The western mind views lions as symbols of power and strength - "the king of beasts". We actually can see the direct dichotomy in the western mind between dragons and lions in Yvain, the Knight of the Lion, where the hero rescues a lion from a great serpent. The lion becomes his loyal companion, and is associated with knightly virtue. They're associated with kings and royalty (Richard the Lionheart, Robert III - the Lion of Saxony), and the word "lionize" means to give someone approval and treat them with great importance. In The Twelve Huntsmen, a lion appears as advisor to the king. In Aarne-Thompson-Uther's index, we see over and over again lions as a hero's helper or a protagonist in its own right.

So, by contrast, the Chinese dragon is one of the auspicious beasts. Historically, they were a symbol of the emperor. They represent prosperity, wisdom, and power, associated with rivers, the sky, and rain, and are benevolent, kind beasts who foster harmony. In fact, the disparity is so immense that in 2008, the Chinese government decided against using a dragon as the Olympic team's mascot because of how dragons are viewed in the west and opted for a more 'friendly' symbol instead.

This is why so many fanon depictions of Zhongli drive me crazy. He gets slapped with so many western dragon traits (jealous, possessive of his partner because oh that's just how dragons are, a general lack of emotional intelligence -- and the idea that he was a bloodthirsty maniac during the archon war before Guizhong 'tamed' him, loves to live beneath a mountain or deep underground). Granted, not all fics are like this, but most fics use at least one of these ideas even though they're in direct conflict with what the game presents to us. Rex Lapis, during and before the archon war, was a kind and benevolent ruler who -- when his people had no houses -- crafted houses for them out of pure gold. He "wished not for dominion", but couldn't stand by and watch people suffer. He doesn't like to fight, but he's good at it and he's strong, so he feels an inherent sense of duty to protect his people.

His character stories are quite clear that though he has never been poor himself, he understands what it means to be poor. He's empathetic, thoughtful, and generous to a fault. That's in his character short where, after hearing that the item was a family heirloom pawned out of necessity, he buys back that jewelry from the pawn shop vendor and quietly returns it to its owner with some living expenses on the side. Prior to faking his death, he personally ran Liyue alongside the Qixing, to the point that both Keqing and Ganyu have expressed how much more intense their workload has become now that he's not doing everything. He's warm, wise, kind, and treats his friends with great respect. So yeah it came as a shock to me and still really bothers me how poorly he is portrayed in a lot of fics -- as this emotionally unintelligent, oblivious, bad-at-feelings hunk. Especially when he's not even actually a dragon. He just chose to look part dragon, part qilin, in an effort to communicate his nature to his people with symbols they would understand.

Anyway I could talk about him for way too long, thank you for coming to my tedtalk. I just think that if English-speaking writers took a second to consider their own bias and look up some information about Chinese dragons, they'd write him very differently.

[rockybloo]

I HAVE SORTED OUT A WAY TO BRING AN OLD BEANSTALKED CHARACTER BACK

THIS IS FUCKIN GREAT - THE AARNE-THOMPSON-UTHER INDEX HAS COME IN CLUTCH FOR ME YET AGAIN

For context: I had one Beanstalked character I REALLY wanted to include in the comic for ages who was Bookmarked with Aladdin...but because I scrapped featuring the 1001 night tales due to worrying about potential orientalism (bc I KNOW I will fumble) I wrote them out of the story

BUT I did some brief digging and found a fairy tale (or two) that contain basically the same stuff I wanted out of Aladdin.

SO I CAN BRING AN OLD CHARACTER BACK AND HAVE EXTRA FUN DESIGNING STUFF FOR THEM

ANOTHER ROCKY W

[olderthannetfic]

I figure this is the best place to ask to not get a pretentious answer (Tried googling it and the quora preview answers killed her)

The word "trope" is overused to excessive mislabeling these days, anywhere (besides TvTropes*) I can go to refresh myself on actual tropes? Scholar-y places are also okay!

*I had an obnoxious know-it-all phase IRL where I constantly referred to tv tropes in casual convos hoping someone would ask me to clarify. I'm well familiar with it. And in my defense I was in middle school.

--

Anything can be a trope. There's no set list of things that count.

You might be able to find some lists in specific contexts. In folklore studies, there's this, for example:

But really, any common motif/plot device/etc. could be discussed using this word.

[tomtefairytaleblog]

Diamonds, Toads, and Dark Magical Girls

According to Bill Ellis in "The Fairy-Telling Craft of Princess Tutu: Meta-Commentary and the Folkloresque," the fairy tale of Cinderella can be seen as one of the earliest examples of the transformation sequences/henshin seen in magical girl anime, particularly in how the title character is given items that help her achieve a goal, usually given to her by a magical being (her mother's spirit in a tree, a fairy godmother, etc.).

Thinking again about the connection between magical girls and fairy tales--even if they aren't as meta as Tutu, many magical girls do use imagery and ideas from European fairy tales (Sailor Moon alone has references to Hans Christian Andersen and Charles Perrault)--I wondered what other character types from the genre may have some precedent in fairy tales. Then I started thinking about the Dark Magical Girl character.

Not every magical girl story has a Dark Magical Girl, but they do crop up in a lot of works. To name a few, there's Fate Testarossa from Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, Homura Akemi from Puella Magi Madoka Magica, Rue/Kraehe from Princess Tutu, and countless others that would be too numerous to name. In general they tend to be more cynical, darker counterparts to the main protagonists, who tend to come from relatively more stable environments. Whatever magic they possess also may be more sinister, at least initially.

Tying in somewhat to the story of Cinderella is the Aarne-Thompson-Uther Index fairy tale type "The Kind and Unkind Girls" (ATU 480). Many of the stories of this type involve a rivalry between two stepsisters, one being favored by the stepmother due to being the latter's biological daughter. The general idea in most versions of the tale is that both girls encounter a magical being at separate points in time. The kind girl helps the magical being in some way, at which point the magical being gives her a magical ability or magical presents. Meanwhile, the unkind girl refuses to help the magical being and is cursed in some fashion, or, worse, killed. The kind girl meanwhile usually ends up marrying a prince, or a similar character. One of the more popular versions of this story, "Diamonds and Toads," has the kind girl gain the ability to have a jewel or flower fall from her mouth when she speaks, while the unkind girl is cursed to have toads and snakes fall from hers. And while the kind girl does marry a prince, the unkind one is kicked out of her house and dies alone in the woods. (Insert something about Revolutionary Girl Utena's comment about how a girl who cannot become a princess is doomed to be a witch.)

Typically in these fairy tales, the unkind girl is never shown to be a real threat to the kind one; the ultimate threat is the stepmother, who uses her daughter as a means to an end. In contrast, Dark Magical Girls tend to have, well, magic that helps them attack the magical girl protagonist. In this regard, they're the Heavy in the plot, while the witch/mother-like figure/real enemy waits in the background (as is the case in a lot of magical girl shows--the Raven and Rue, Precia and Fate, Fine and Chris in Symphogear etc.). Sometimes the Dark Magical Girl will be a major threat, though--like the Princess of Disaster in Pretear (who is loosely-inspired by the Evil Queen in Snow White).

In The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales (1976), Bruno Bettelheim argues that the stepmother as a character is a way for children to process the negative traits of their own mothers, while still idealizing the good qualities of them. With that in mind, the unkind sister and the Dark Magical Girl can be viewed as a way of processing/externalizing the negative traits that a girl can have, being cruel, rebellious, and uncaring. They also embody their fears, too--the fear of being alone, rejected, and doomed to fail.

Of course, nowadays, Dark Magical Girls have a tendency to be redeemed and reconcile with/befriend the main magical girl, something the kind and unkind girls never seem to do in the fairy tales. Maybe it's just emblematic of society deciding that killing a girl off for being a little rude is a bit unfair. She's just a kid trying to find her place in the world, too, after all.

[pagan-stitches]

The Twelve Months/Moons, collected by Božena Němcová

According one of the Czech sources I was reading this is the oldest Czech fairy tale. In every collection I own it is the first fairy tale.

Maruška is the step-daughter of a woman who has her own daughter, Holena. Mother and daughter are jealous of Maruška’s beauty and popularity. The tale is classified in the international Aarne-Thompson-Uther Index as type ATU 480, "The Kind and Unkind Girls". Anyone who is familiar with the Brothers Grimm’s fairy tale Frau Holle (German) or Alexander Afanasyev’s Vasilisa the Beautiful (ATU 480 B, Russian, featuring our favorite witch, Baba Yaga) will recognize the theme immediately.

In each of these stories the beautiful and kind step-daughter is sent into the cold, dark woods on an impossible task by the evil step-mother.

In this case Maruška is first sent after violets in January. She encounters the personified months (moons) and impressed by her politeness as they share their fire they decide to assist her, the personification of March giving her the violets.

Next the evil step-mother and spoiled daughter send her for strawberries. This time when she encounters the months (moons) it is June who produces the most wonderful strawberries.

Next the evil step-mother and spoiled daughter send her for apples and it is September who provides them for her.

Eventually the greedy step-daughter goes off on her own seeking the magical fruit claiming Maruška will eat it all if she sends her. She encounters the months (moons) and when she is rude to them January makes a snowstorm and they all disappear leaving the girl to be left in the storm. When the evil step-mother goes looking for the daughter she is lost as well and Maruška inherits the farm lives happily ever after.

Here is an interesting paper that, in part, discusses the personification of days, weeks, months, holidays, etc. in various Slavic cultures.

Illustrators:

#1 unknown

#2 Darina Studentá

#3 Vera Stone

#4 Rodney Thompson

#5 T S Hyman

#6 illustrator unknown

#7 Jan Matulka

[dimetrodone]

how goes the reading of the andersen tales? also, thoughts on the aarne-thompson-uther index?

I am approximately 2/3rds done, I took a break last week to read something else for a book club I’m in.

I’m not knowledgable enough about fairlytales and folklore to have any strong opinions on the ATU index besides it being interesting and helping me find similar and “related” stories. I imagine there is some controversy and messiness with it as is the case with all classification systems, but I haven’t read into it enough to know about that

[shoezuki]

What's 425c?

425C is the classification for all beauty and the beast-type stories/fairy tales in the Aarne-Thompson-Uther (ATU) index. basically, the ATU index is basically a way to categorize fairy tales found all across cultures into groups based on prevalent themes, motifs, and plot points. Like, beauty and the beast is ATU 425C, cupid and psyche is 425B, and theyre both subcategories of ATU 425, which is 'enchanted or supernatural husband/wife' more broadly. Cinderella is ATU 510A, Donkeyskin is 510B although sometimes its considered a part of the 510A subcategory (i disagree), three little pigs is 124, red riding hood is i think 333? ya all that

basically its like. tv tropes for academics studying fairytales and folklore. or losers like me

[allgirlsareprincesses]

Do you think that Rey's story (excluding episode 9 'cause that was a shitshow) could be interpreted as a Cinderella/Ash girl story?

I hope you realize asking me this is like throwing chum to a shark 😈. But the short answer is yes, to a point.

The long answer is more complicated, so to begin with, let's consult the Cinderella bible:

According to the Aarne Thompson Uther Index, there are five primary motifs to a Cinderella tale:

Persecuted heroine, usually by family

Help or helper, usually magic

Meeting the prince, usually with true identity disguised

Identification or penetration of disguise, usually by means of an object

Marriage to the prince

Rey is abandoned by her family, which is a form of persecution, and harassed by the inhabitants of Jakku like Unkar Plutt. Thus she clearly fulfills the first item.

As for meeting a helper, there are several for her, including Han Solo, Maz, Luke, and Leia. Any or all of these may be considered fairy godparents in the way that they offer her wisdom and material help. Further, except for Maz, they all die in the course of the story, which is consistent with many Cinderella tales in which the helper dies and their bones continue to offer wisdom and comfort to the heroine.

Next, meeting the prince. I mean

To the extent that Rey is "in disguise' here, it would be the extent of her force powers, her destiny as Ben Solo's dyad mate, and her role as the heir apparent to the Jedi (chosen by the Force to wield the legacy saber), all of which are obscured from Kylo Ren when he discovers her in the forest. Further, she is grimy and covered in desert sand, similar to how Cinderella is smeared with ashes that hide her true beauty.

So now an object penetrates the disguise. This is obviously the Skywalker lightsaber, which reveals Rey to be everything listed above, especially when she calls it to her on Starkiller Base, and again when she wields it on Ahch-to.

And lastly, marriage to the prince. As many others have pointed out over the years, Rey and Ben have almost too many symbolic marriages to count in the course of the sequel trilogy. They're extremely married, the Force said so.

BUT WAIT! Go back and look at that list again. Who ELSE fits all those criteria?

It's our boy! Consider:

He is indeed persecuted by family, most notably when Luke momentarily considers killing him.

Ben's helpers are both dark and light, as Snoke/Palpatine guide him in the dark while Luke guides him in the light (poorly). But note again what I said above about the bones of the mentor continuing to offer guidance and comfort after their death. Who should appear at Ben's lowest hour but his departed father, Han Solo? With a message of love, acceptance, and encouragement, Han's memory (because in fairy tales, bones contain memory) encourages Ben to at last cast off his beastly skin and become who he always was.

Next, meeting the prince/ss in disguise. He's wearing a literal mask when he meets Rey, so yeah.

An object penetrates the disguise? Rey slashed his face with the legacy saber, thus symbolically peeling away his mask. And I've argued before that the stabbing in TROS (which I still HATE, btw) is another cutting or burning away of the beastly skin.

And lastly, marriage to the prince/ss. As previously stated, that happened. Many times.

So yes, the Sequel Trilogy can definitely be considered a Cinderella story, with but one glaring issue: Cinderella's husband usually doesn't die at the end. But that's another topic that's been done to death, so let's all just read some more fanfic and forget about it. 👑 Thank you for the ask, this was fun!