#Endgame rant

[onewaycloset7]

POV the trio everybody has been screaming for

[the--last-great-american-dynasty]

currently thinking about how easily charles said “well that sounds a lot like you, doesn’t it? wait, maybe that’s why i like her so much” and somehow neither of them registered the implications of that statement because that’s a fucking crazy thing to say to your best mate in regards to a girl you fancy

[realfruittaste]

I saw this post a while ago, where someone pointed out to me, that mike interprets every fight he has with will romantically.

So, I was thinking about this, and yes! He always pushes back harshly “We’re friends. We’re friends!” “It’s not my fault you don’t like girls!” which to me, either means that he knows Will is in love with him, which his reaction would then just be cruel OR there's some feelings there from his side too, and because of his internalised homophobia he deals with it in this way.

Viewing it from the perspective of a closeted gay/bi guy, he feels the need to enforce and emphasize a heteronormative perspective on his relationship with will, while actually he is the one viewing it from a homosexual lens. He feels this need to point out not only his own "straightness" but also Will's presumed straightness. He views and experiences every fight he has with Will romantically, similar to a fight you'd have with a significant other.

This is why the rinkomania fight remains the best byler proof to date because “We’re friends. We’re friends!” didn't make any sense! Because yes mike, obviously... Will was talking about y'alls relationship as friends... This could mean Mike is aware of his feelings for Will but is actively surpressing them. Which can be interpreted in one of two ways to me personally, namely Mike thinks Will is straight and his feelings are unrequited, or maybe Mike is scared of Will reciprocating?

I feel like that's an overlooked perspective, especially considering the time in which the story takes place, the 80s, during the aids crisis. Most bylers tend to assume that Mike isn't aware of Will's feelings, but what if he is? What if he has known this whole time, or maybe since some time before the rain fight? Or atleast prior to season 4?

In this case scenario, what if Mike is scared of his own and Will's feelings. Not only having the fear of whether Will would reciprocate, but also what if Will reciprocates. Maybe, both could be equally scary... Doubts about what if Will is actually straight and he misread the situation, but also being scared that maybe he is gay and they do indeed both like eachother, and where does that leave them...

Mike having grown up in a homophobic small town, growning up hearing and reading about gay people dying, in the tens of thousands, to aids which was often referred to as the "gay plague", the government doing very little to adress the situation, no gay marriage, obviously. The idea that he wouldn't want neither himself, nor Will to be gay doesn't seem far-fetched to me.

So, yeah… the idea that his internalised homophobia (which stems from fear) extends to not only himself, but also the person he's in love with (aka 'he isn't gay because I don't want him to be gay because if he is then I have to face my own feelings) is a perspective I haven't seen many other byler shippers talk about.

[ksbbb]

The headcanon of Liam being a passenger princess is 💯 accurate. Theo drives everywhere and Liam picks the music. Corey and Mason in the back? Yes.

[crxzytogether]

bruh every comment about a gay ship where they say theyre just really good friends and we need more pure strong male friendships like that are so💀 bc firstly wdym pure? does becoming queer make something dirty... bestie your homophobias showing. Secondly, being in love doesnt mean theyre not friends anymore ???? Like 😭Wdym you don't want it to become romantic bc it's a good representation of friendship? like okay and? They'd still be best friends if they got together be serious yall acting like the minute it turns romantic it's bye bye friendship when for most of these ships becoming romantic wouldnt even change a whole lot in their relationship like theyd hug for a little longer and maybe kiss but that's it, the friendship would still be there trust😭 the friendships part of why the ships good to begin with bc friends to lovers is classic

on a related topic the people that say why do we have to make everything gay... listen yall would not survive the crosscover crackships we had back in the day LMAO shipping is silly and fun and doesnt have to be serious, one could ship two characters just bc they think they look good together even they have not interacted even once okay? with that noted for the more serious ships where it's not 100% fanon and actually holds weight why are yall so threatened like relax, and why do you ignore all the platonic same sex friendships we appreciate and respect and dont ship in a serious way like, genuienly just say youre homophobic and leave bc ik damn well if one of the two people was the opposite gender youd have no problems...

nevermind the fact that none of us pull up with the why cant we just let a guy and a girl be friends when yall ship a guy and girl for less reasons than we have, like ok we do pull up with that but we're not tryna get you to stop shipping them or shaming for you shipping them(unless it's weird/illegal/wrong then shame) bc it does not affect us in any way just like whatever we ship does not affect you in any way

lastly this is lowkey unrelated but if you start your sentence with "this isn't me being homophobic" or say "im not homophobic but" or whatever, if you have to clarify that youre not being homophobic maybe rethink what youre saying bc if it truly wasnt homophobic you wouldnt have felt the need to have to explain yourself bc you think someone might interpret it that way, the fact that you can see how your statement could be interpreted that way is the first red flag girl also this goes for like everything like "im not racist" "im not sexist" hell even "this isnt me being mean" LIKE YALL this is you being exactly that pack it up and leave

[astronglywordeddm]

my thoughts on byler...

do you mean to tell me..

that the bullied, traumatised gay teenager who likes his best friend is going to end up without the best friend. the show literally shows the same storyline where the bullied kid's older brother ends up with the best friends older sister, who was previously in a relationship where she couldn't say i love you (sound familiar, mike?). The duffers aren't doing that shit by accident!

anyway...

Stranger Things IS LITERALLY a show about being different "being freaks", people who are ostracized by society!! and you mean to tell me a toxic, straight couple will be endgame?!

Also youse want a traumatised girl to get married and pregnant? tying her down to a man? yeah....

anyway

i hoped you enjoyed my mini rant

[legalandnotease]

You know what annoys me most about Endgame (well a lot of things do), but most of all?

The way that it completely ignores what Natasha did. How crucial her actions were to the ultimate victory. Instead they tried to make Endgame into Iron Man 4, and pretend Tony saved everyone singlehandedly. Yet the truth is the plan to reverse the snap would *never have worked* without Natasha's sacrifice.

They had to have all of the stones to snap everybody back- and they also had to have all the Stones to snap Thanos away. Even one missing, and not only would the Snapped have stayed dead, but Thanos would have won a second time.

In truth, it was Natasha who saved the universe and Natasha who ensured ultimate victory against Thanos. Anybody could have snapped Thanos away (it didn't have to be Tony), but few could have paid the ultimate price for the Soul Stone.

In fact: let's talk about the Soul Stone. It was the most difficult and costly of all the Stones to obtain. I read that some theories that the souls of the Snapped were contained in the Stone, and so it was the key to bringing everyne back.

Meaning that Stone was also the one which allowed Thanos and his army to be Snapped away.

So again, it all comes back to Natasha, and her choice on Vormir.

Yet she didn't even get a funeral. The movie just completely ignores her to give Tony all the credit and all the fuss when he actually did very little.

And had to be emotionally blackmailed and tricked to do even that. Natasha was willing every step of the way.

[love-byers]

i fear no byler quote will make me more unhinged than:

"You guys think he's okay?"

"He's always weird when he has to go in."

"I don't know. He's quiet today."

"He's always quiet."

"..."

LIKE HOLY FUCK

the amount of depth this scene adds to mike and will's relationship despite only being a few seconds long is INSANE. my film student oomf @reo-bylerwagon has told me that it's a real strategy to find the exact right wording that adds this depth. there's only so many lines and so many scenes, so every last bit has to count towards something.

there is so much here

1. mike being closest to the camera while the others hang back

2. mike's expression being more concerned than the others

3. "you guys think he's okay?"

dustin is worried about his friend, but he's unsure. he seeks out lucas and mike's opinions.

4. "he's always weird when he has to go in."

lucas has noticed that will is noticeably different on days he has to go to the lab. but he reassures dustin. this is expected. will is always a bit off on days he knows he has to go in, because he hates it.

5. "i don't know. he's quiet today."

mike isn't so sure. will isn't acting the way he always does on the lab days. there's something else. he's noticeably quieter. mike suspects that this isn't just because of the lab, that maybe will isn't okay.

6. "he's always quiet."

lucas knew will was acting weird, but he didnt notice any difference in how quiet he was being. will is always quiet. that's just who he is. that's not a factor in his weird behavior, at least to lucas.

will is always quiet. every day. he is a quiet person.

there are several layers here that make it difficult to notice these shifts in will's behavior. he is a naturally quiet person. there is a known explanation for why he acts weird on certain days. and this is one of those days. no one else thought will was outside of his norm.

but still, somehow, mike knew that wasn't it. he noticed that will was acting different even on the day where he ALWAYS acts different. he noticed that will was being slightly quieter than usual even though he is ALWAYS quiet every single day. he knew this was new behavior. he knew there was something else going on.

but he doesn't voice this, he just watches will silently from behind the fence, clearly deep in thought. he's worried.

i'm sorry but why shove it down our throats that mike is more attentive to will than his other friends and clearly cares for him more and wants to protect him just for it to all mean absolutely nothing in the end? he is even more attentive to will than he is to el.

like how are they going to explain mike's behavior? cause like they still have to do that

"will is just his best friend" there's a whole scene in s1 where mike says they're ALL his best friends

"he's known will the longest" he also says he doesn't treat his friends any differently because of how long he's known them

literally what else is there?? is will just his extra special platonic bro soulmate???

ok so will was misled by mike's attentive caring and supportive behavior that was exclusive to him and developed romantic feelings. and mike is like that...just cause. this whole plot was just a tool to help will realize his sexuality and he'll get over mike and mlvn will be endgame.

a few problems with that...

WILL HAS BEEN BULLIED AND ABUSED AND CALLED GAY/GAY SLURS HIS WHOLE LIFE. unfortunately, and fellow queer people will understand, it's easier to come to terms with what you are when it's been spouted in your face your whole life. if wills love for mike was just to help the audience understand that he's gay, what was the point of all the homophobic abuse and hate crimes and all that? just cause? alright. noah has said will realized his feelings for mike "later on" but quickly cut himself off. will realized his FEELINGS, not his sexuality. will wasn't crying in the van because he doesn't want to be gay, or because he's coming to terms with the fact that he's gay. he was crying because he is deeply in love with someone who he thinks will never love him back. this isn't about self acceptance. will has accepted himself. he's accepted what he is. he's accepted his feelings for mike. that's not the problem. that's not why he's hurting. he's hurting because she's he's heartbroken.

like i'm sorry but it's ridiculous to pretend like you don't see how anything besides byler endgame makes 0 sense. bc it really doesn't and you don't even have to be a writer to see it

[scruncheduppaper]

seeing ppl on twitter’s takes about snowgrave kriselle makes me want to kill myself oh my godddd “its toxic” “regular kriselle better bc its healthier” DO YOU THINK I WANT TO SEE THEM MUSHY KISS AND BE LOVEY DOVEY AND HUG EACH OTHER??? NO!!! the APPEAL is that adding romantic connotations to their snowgrave relationship (which mind you very much already exists in canon) allow their relationship to become so much more interesting. do i think they’ll become truly endgame canon? do i think they’re in love with each other??? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! AND I DONT WANT THEM TO!!! the POINT is that it’s supposed to be dark and interesting and exploratory of their characters in relation to the deconstruction of autonomy in video games through gender roles and principles of knighthood and the idea of the “damsel in distress”. not to mention that “shipping” regular kriselle and snowgrave kriselle isnt mutually exclusive either. in fact i think understanding both allows you to analyse their relationship much more fully and deeply than without considering the other side. and besides, isnt the fucking point of shipping to explore character relationships??? why would you want to Ignore nuance and depth rather than focus on it???? are you unable to handle anything deeper or darker than like fucking cocomelon??? if you hate character analysis and dark themes in relationships you can head on back there or smth idfk oh my lord i cant fucking TAKE IT ANYMORE

[prisperview]

marvel please i just need one thunderbolts* after credits scene of Bucky coming back to his place after the events of the movie, turning the corner into his living room and Steve is there, sitting on one side of his loveseat with tea and a book saying "welcome home". cmon how much could 1 chris evans cost? I'd finance it myself if I could.

[musette22]

One common thing people who support Steve's endgame ending claim is that Steve was always miserable in the future. He never adjusted or felt at home in the future, so of course when he got the chance to go back to the past he took it.

However the only proof of this is at the start of catws (and that deleted avengers scene). Yes he was feeling lost and adrift but he didn't stay that way. He made friends with Sam and Natasha and Wanda and Thor and he got Bucky back. He found a purpose and became confident in who he was and what he believed in. Steve may have moments of feeling sad, but if you think he stayed that way for 12+ years you're not giving him enough credit.

And the claim that he was always miserable isn't true either. He joked with his friends on several occasions, and I mentioned how much better he was when he became nomad. And sorry to steggy or staron shippers, but Bucky made Steve happier than anyone else did. Look at the museum footage of them, or them looking at each other in infinity war. He was happy without Peggy.

Also I think fans forget the scene in catws where Sam asks him if he misses the past. And what does Steve say in response? He lists things he likes about the future and makes a point of not romanticising the past. It's especially important that he was talking to a black man while saying this. We rightly talk about how awful Bucky would feel about Steve leaving to live a life without him, but also imagine being Sam and hearing that your friend wants to go life in a time when someone like you had less rights than you do now.

And you know the line about shared life experience? It applies to Bucky of course but in endgame you could also apply it in a non romantic way. Because you say Steve was out of place in the future? Well in endgame he was surrounded by people in the same situation. Countless people were forced to adjust to a time they didn't know. Steve is uniquely qualified to bond with these people. And choosing to go back to the past puts him right back where he was when he first went to the future. He again has to adjust to a time he's not familiar with.

Funny how in order to justify his ending you have to ignore what his story has previously shown us.

THANK YOU! This is so very true, all of it. Completely agree, you make so many excellent points.

Of course Steve felt lost and adrift at first: he was. He was all alone in a foreign time, he lost everyone, he had ptsd because of the war he fought in and everything that had happened to him etc. etc. It would've been strange if he hadn't been depressed in those first years.

But you're right, he was already making significant steps towards being more settled in the new century by the time Bucky returned, and then when he did, I would argue he became a sort of anchor for Steve in the new time. And from that moment on, Steve really started to belong, and realize that he didn't want to go back, but forward. Like, Nomad Steve was NOT dreaming about going back to the 40s, there is no way. That man belonged right where he was, with Bucky by his side, and he knew it.

Home. And he did not mean bloody 1945.

(Gif credit @/dailystevegifs from this gifset)

Also, can I just say that Steve never seemed particularly happy or settled in the 30s/40s? Yes, he had his mother and he had Bucky, and yes, it was "his" time and Brooklyn and I'm sure he came to miss it once he couldn't go back to it anymore, but he was often sick and he was poor and he was frustrated with the world around him and his own body's limitations, and he always wanted sometimes else, something more.

And sure, one could argue that he finally found his calling once he was given the serum and became Cap (and got a healthy body that fit his spirit), but we know he was still miserable at first, as a dancing monkey. I do think the period of time after he'd rescued Bucky, when the Howling Commandos worked closely together for a few years, must've been a special time for Steve, which he will have missed later on for sure. But it was still wartime. Wartime, and being in a war zone, is miserable, and far from a dream life for Steve. So like... what exactly was he supposedly longing for in the past so much that it would've been impossible for him to ever settle in the present? The thing he most clearly missed from his past was Bucky, and he got him back.

So yeah, I think Steve was just fine where he was eventually, and he would have never, ever thrown everything he’d built, the life that had become his, and everyone he'd come to care about and who cared about him, casually out of the window in order to go back to a past he never gave any indication of actively wanting to go back to.

Funny how in order to justify his ending you have to ignore what his story previously showed us.

Exactly that. That's precisely what Endgame did: it ignored Steve's previous story and his character development over several movies in order to shoehorn in the heteronormative ending the studio execs apparently demanded. Spineless, inane bullshit, if you ask me.

[hazyass]

it really frustrates me when people refer to markhelly’s love as “teenage love.” i never see that argument used against burt and irving, and mind you, they’ve had about the same amount of time together as mark and helly, yet their love is never diminished in any way. same with idylan and gretchen. he met her, like, twice and was already proposing, and their love is taken seriously. so why is it only mark and helly’s relationship that gets downplayed?? i genuinely don’t get it and probably never will. we’ve had two seasons showing how deeply their connection runs, how much it’s changed them for the better. they make each other better. the way their love has been built into the narrative is so intentional and well done. love didn’t just transcend for burt and irving or dylan and gretchen, it did for mark and helly too. that was the whole point of the zufu scene! it doesn’t matter that helly is helena eagan. it doesn’t matter that mark scout is “married.” these two will find a way to be together. so downplay their relationship all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that their love is a huge part of the story whether you like it or not.

[thequeenofsastiel]

Look I'm just saying in the finale one of the brothers was forlorn and talked about missing Castiel while the other was happily eating pie and dismissively said that he missed Castiel too and then proceeded to continue to happily eat pie and maybe JUST MAYBE it would've made more sense for Castiel to profess love for the brother actively mourning him

[miwiheroes]

If Will were a girl, how do you think the average audience would react? Would they say she's also a homewrecker or a slut? Or that her and Mike make much more sense and chemistry?

I think there would still be a shipping war, like there is with Jancy and Stancy. Therefore, toxic people on the Mileven side of things would likely call her that yes -- but I think that's not the issue brought up by people who are asking the question of : What if Will were a girl?

If Will was a girl, people probably would see Byler as having more of a chance, people would be more receptive of the idea of it happening because it's straight. People would be much much more likely to see their romantic scenes as romantic and the showrunners and interviewers would definitely be asking the actors more about this love triangle.

But a lot of the reason why so many people , including queer people, think that Byler won't happen is because it's a queer ship. These are the common doubts:

Will's unrequited love is realistic. Many gay boys have crushes on their straight best friend.

Will's sadness is realistic because he is a gay person in the 80s.

Mike loves El meaning he is straight and can't love Will who is a guy.

The showrunners can't make a gay love story the main focus of a huge show like Stranger Things.

The showrunners might be queerbaiting like a lot of other shows.

Doubt number 1 is eliminated if Will was a girl because straight unrequited love is not seen as realistic.

Doubt number 2 is eliminated if Will was a girl because she would be straight and not discriminated against for being gay in the 80s.

Doubt number 3 is eliminated because both El and Will would be girls, meaning Mike can equally have a chance of being with either of them.

Doubt number 4 is eliminated if Will was a girl because the writers would not need to make as big of a social leap to make Mike and Will in love.

Doubt number 5 is eliminated if Will was a girl because.... well it's obvious.

I kind of don't like this argument. Yes, if Will was a girl, people would probably be more receptive to the idea of Byler happening. A lot of the reason people don't see it is because of heteronormativity. BUT a lot of the reason why I think Byler is happening is because MIKE IS QUEERCODED not just because Byler have romantic chemistry. Part of Mike's arc isn't just realising that he's in love with Will, it's realising that he's queer.

This is a gay love story, don't try to water it down by simply asking questions like:

"What if Will was a girl?"

"If Mileven were gay would you like them?"

Ignores the queer building blocks of the story. Byler is the dynamic that it is because they are queer in the 80s. Mileven is the way it is because they are a straight couple pushed together by trauma and guilt.

EDIT: GUYS LOOK IN THE REBLOGS

[littlenastieswewhispered]

i get that spike/spuffy antis have to hate season seven on principle (and the fact that they act like spike’s arc is entirely frivolous and unimportant is so wildly dismissive of buffy’s i don’t think they actually even like her!), but so many are straight up factually incorrect about what actually happens. i don’t know if it’s a media literacy issue or a choice to be obstinate. probably a mixture. when you want something to be a certain way, misunderstanding something gives you room to declare yourself right.

their main talking point is that ensouled spike forces his presence on buffy. this… just doesn’t happen even once in the season. at all.

spike doesn’t return to sunnydale to see buffy. he goes back to the hellmouth. probably because it’s all he knows, as a demon he considers it home, and not for nothing he’s already being controlled by the first who wants him in place for a specific purpose.

in the first episode, lessons, buffy comes across spike on her own. he’s at some of his most insane for this interaction, and he walks away from her. in the next episode, beneath you, buffy seeks spike out. she goes to the basement and can’t find him. he’s actively hiding from her.

later in the same episode he gets himself cleaned up and goes to her, for the first and only time. he says it’s because something terrible is coming and he wants to offer his help. he tells her if she doesn’t want him around, tell him and he’ll leave and she can revoke his invite (which notably is still active). she doesn’t. she accepts his help.

they talk while looking for the demon and buffy says she can tell something is different about him but she doesn’t know what. spike makes a point to say he isn’t going to tell her what it is. that’s MAJOR. spike does not want buffy to know about his soul. he doesn’t put it on her, and he doesn’t make it her problem. he ends up telling her only after it’s nearly forced out of him and he’s triggered back into insanity after a lucid period. after he reveals his soul, he leaves.

in the next episode, same time same place, buffy seeks spike out. he’s once again hiding in the basement, so she knows where to find him, but he does not go to her. she enlists his help that episode, twice.

the next episode is help. buffy goes to the basement to see spike. she asks if he knows anything about cassie. he later helps buffy save cassie from the boys trying to sacrifice her.

in the next one, selfless, buffy once again goes to spike. it’s a definite a pattern. buffy seeks out spike. it’s actually a lot like much of their relationship in season six, only much more one sided. she tells him to leave the basement because it’s bad for him.

the next episode, him, sees a big shift. it’s still buffy going to spike, but this time she doesn’t just leave him in the basement. she actively chooses to help him out of it, getting xander to let him move into his apartment. there’s a huge and important change in their dynamic now. they are solidly in each other’s lives, and that was and continues to be buffy’s choice.

i won’t do little synopses for each episode from the rest of the season, but from here spike offers to leave at minimum four additional times, half a dozen or more total all season.

he earnestly wants buffy to kill him in sleeper and never leave me, because he’s devastated and terrified that he’s killing. buffy says no, she’s going to help him and she believes in him. she rescues him, because she wants to, and moves him back into her house.

later on spike seems to be gaining back control of his mind, but when the first threatens him he once again says he’s a danger and needs to leave and buffy says no because shes not ready for him not to be here.

buffy wants spike in her life. she makes that fact extremely clear. maybe at first it wasn’t for the healthiest reasons, but a major theme of season seven is spike and buffy healing both as individuals and growing closer together because of it. their relationship empowers and strengthens buffy, and the final episode is called chosen for a reason. this season is about buffy’s agency. that starts when she decides who’s in her life and who isn’t.

there’s never a single moment where spike makes that decision for her. he doesn’t once tell buffy she has to accept him, or that he should have access to her. he doesn’t come around when she says to leave, because she doesn’t say to leave. he stays away from her until she beckons him back. over and over.

spike doesn’t think he deserves anything from buffy. he believes the opposite, even encouraging her to date and hiding his heartache about it. he doesn’t make his insanity and suffering her problem. she volunteers to help him.

i understand having issues with the writing choice of spike back in buffy’s life at all after what happened in season six, but only if you’re engaging with it honestly. you can dislike that buffy makes the choice to have spike around, but it’s obvious when you disregard her agency and pretend he’s the one calling the shots. you hate a story that didn’t happen, and it’s impossible take seriously.

[meganinvasion]

I literally cannot describe how much it ENRAGES me when people say "Will deserves better than Mike" and "I hope Will gets his happy ending without Mike". He does not WANT anyone else, he is in LOVE with Mike and he WON'T get his truly happy ending unless it's with MIKE!!! He deserves nothing but his happy ending WITH MIKE💔

Anyway byler endgame gang