#and the thing about discourse is that you could give a person all the canonical facts of the story and they'll still find a way to pretend

[mulletmitsuya]

random tokrev rant ahead !!

when i first started this blog it was going to be for random shitposts, groupchats once in a while, and mostly tokrev analysis but i was so scared of discourse that i just chose to do the funnier stuff 😭. when tokrev was at it's peak i'd be reading 20k+ words of analysis and it was so fun!! but i felt like i couldn't word what i wanted to say properly so that discouraged me but i wish i'd ignored that because there would have been at least one person who understood what i was saying yk?

[overdramaticbaddie]

im losing my shit im losing my shit i hate this fandom i hate it heeeerrreeeee

HAS EVERYBODY LOST THEIR MINDS

HAS NOBODY EYES TO SEE

SHAYY WAS RIGHT

Y'ALL CANT FUCKING READDDDDDDD

IF I HEAR ONE MORE PERSON SAY SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF "Oh! EVEN Berdly was featured in the newsletter!"

"Even KERDLY got some crumbs from the new chapters!" or

"Berdly's probably gonna have some comedic moments in chapter 5 and that's it."

IM GONNA CRASH TF OUT

IM GONNA PUT MY COMPUTER IN THE TRASHCAN AND STOMP TF OUT OF IT

DO I HAVE TO SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU PEOPLE?????????????

Berdly

Is

FUCKING

Relevant

And is at LEAST as important to the plot as Noelle.

I could talk abt how the combination of his absence from the prophecy and being one of the few lightners to know abt the dark world gives him an INCREDIBLE character-arc propelling dilemna of whether to help his friends or to just stay on the sidelines like fate intended,

OR I could mention how his total freedom from the prophecy and his desire to be involved in adventure is a FASCINATING contrast to Kris's entanglement in the narrative and simple wish for security.

I could yap all day abt how he's the ONLY thing that changes the plot so far.

I could EVEN talk about the symbolism of him being a bird, free from the restraints of the prophecy, and Kris literally being "The cage", a prisoner to it.

(Plus the fact that out of EVERYTHING they could have in their room to keep the SOUL in, they have a birdcage. A FUCKING BIRDCAGE.)

But I'm not going to talk about any of that. OR the million and a half other reasons that Berdly is FUCKING relevant that I have and that Kerdly is the Kris ship that makes the most sense with the canon.

BECAUSE I SHOULDNT BE THE ONLY ONE FUCKING SAYING ALL THIS SHITTTTTTT

I NEED MORE SERIOUS BERDLY DISCOURSE

PLEASE GOD

HE'S AN IMPORTANT CHARACTER

I'm going to go throw myself into the sea/ref

[shygirl4991]

Six Splits For Four Chap 3 Discourse

All art is done by @b-r-i-n-g-x be sure to check out her other stuff! Please do not repost art!

Next Chapter Last Chapter

Tags: Action/Adventure, Romance, fluff, angst with a happy ending!, blood, character death, injury, SMG34 is canon, split au

The princely SMG4 smiles brightly at Three as he checks over the man “I’m glad to see my fair maiden is okay!” SMG3 felt his face go into a darker shade of red the longer he was held, unable to handle it. Three starts waving his arms “OKAY YES PUT ME DOWN YOU BAKA!” The personality gently puts Three down, once his feet touch the floor he slides away from the princely personality. Still red in the face he slowly checks the papers before handing them over to Producer, Four stands in shock seeing the fourth member “How…Three?!” 

Three frowns looking at the personality “And you are?” the personality giggles lightly tapping his head “Where are my manners, I’m Prince 4! The heroic side of the original, I'm the one that makes the risky moves to protect our loved ones.” Four walks over to Three feeling sick “Didn't you say you only had three?”  SMG3 looks at the personalities and frowns “Yeah…i don't know how you got four, if there are more than three then we need to know how many of you guys are there.” Four nervously look at his personalities as they exchange looks, Ringmaster nods taking center stage “There are six of us taking the stage! It was certainly a mess, before you ask I have no idea where the others are.” Three’s eyes go wide as he looks at Four, it was official that Four was going to vomit. Four walked away from the group, worried, Three walked over to his boyfriend “Hey blue? It won't be that bad, together we can figure out what's going on.” Four faces Three with grey eyes “Am i broken? You only had three…does that mean there is something wrong with me?”  Three frowns as he grabs Four “Shut the fuck up right now, you’re SMG4 popular youtuber with all the friends a person could ask for. There is nothing about you broken you hear me, you might have just been feeling a lot of emotions at the time of the split.” Slowly Four’s blue eyes return as he hugs Three, the man sighs as he hugs him back. The personalities smile softly at the sight, remembering the others Three pulls away letting out a small cough “Right, now Prince can you help us find the final two?” Prince smiles softly as he takes Three’s hand giving it a kiss. Three's face goes bright red as he does his best to keep his composer,  SMG4 smirks at Three seeing the man's face so red “Not a word scrub.” 

Prince smiles lovingly at Three “Of course my love, i was actually sent here by Parent to find help. That's when I noticed our maiden in danger and I had to act. I almost forgot about the message he gave me!” Three sighs as he inches away from Prince, taking a deep breath he plays with the heart pin. Prince takes out a note and smiles “Prince remember to tell the others that i need help, while i was busy helping Karen the treasure we both were watching over has run away.” Three and Four look at Prince confused as the other personalities gasp. The reaction made the pair nervous as they exchanged a look before Four grabs the paper, Prince frowns from the rude interaction. Slowly anger could be seen in Four’s eyes, his blue eyes having a tint of pink. He storms off taking the group by surprise, Three gently takes Producer’s hand and smiles at him before looking at the others “Knowing how he is when angry i think it's best we follow now!”

As the group went after Four there was one thing bothering Three, the hint of pink in Four eyes gave him a strange feeling.  They finally caught up to Four only to see him walking up to a green version of himself, Parent turns and notices the crew. Before Four can grab his green version, the man ran past him right toward SMG3. He shakes his head as he opens his fanny pack “My word Honey, you need to watch over that beautiful face of yours!” He takes out an alcohol wipe and starts cleaning a cut on Three’s face. His eyes go wide as pink dust his cheeks again, Parent hums cleaning the wound then covering it with a spinning fish bandage. 

Parent gave Three a soft smile before being dragged away by Four “Parent?” he spits out, seeing the anger in his original eyes makes him nervous. “Ah Prince read the letter to you…PRINCE WAS SUPPOSED TO WATCH THE KIDS!”  Three’s eyes go wide at Parent’s words as he turns to Prince “Hey Romeo, what the hell did he mean by that?” Prince stares at Parent , showing him an expression of betrayal. Prince takes a  step back seeing Three getting angry “My gem please listen! Parent took Beeg and Eggdog out to play, he then said Karen needed help with her kids. He told me to watch the little ones, the only thing is when he told me that the children were already gone!”  Three’s face turns from anger to panic as he grabs Four pulling him away from his green personality, seeing the panic on his boyfriend's face snaps Four out of his anger. 

Parent frowns as he looks around at the group “There are a good amount of us, how about we split up the gang!” Prince nods in excitement while Artist and Ringmaster glare at each other, hearing this plan Four looks at the group as his eyes turn green. Four takes Artist hand and pairs him up with Prince, Ringmaster gets to partner up with Parent leaving Producer with Three. He smiles at the pair up before Three speaks up “Alright and who will you be with?” Four looks at the pairs then waves his hand “Don't worry i can handle this alone, who knows i might even bump into our last friend!” The personalities share a nervous look before nodding and separating, once everyone was out of sight Four’s eyes go back to blue. He lets out a sigh as he walks on his own, he needs space from everyone and wraps his head around everything. He had six versions of himself running wild into the world, not to mention a missing meme child.  He wondered how on earth Three handled everything, he couldn't even believe Three was handling so many versions of himself. His eyes start flickering different colors as his mixed emotions screams at him, without thinking he walks back to the showgrounds.  “This is just like everything else Four, just deep breath and smile. Just like everything else, just wash it down your back and move forward!” 

As he cheers for himself in front of Three’s cafe he hears a chuckle, he turns to see the front door of the cafe broken down “Who's there!?” He glares at the cafe till he hears an excited bark, Four relaxes for a moment confused “Eggdog?” The pup hearing his name running out excited to see him. Four giggles picking up Eggdog, remembering the voice he slowly walks in. His eyes go grey as his anxiety starts to take over, he gasps seeing who was at the cafe. It was him in orange wearing a cloak, he looked bored as he sipped a cup of tea. Nervously Four decides to ask the question. Three always asked “Who are you, what part of me?” The orange Four sighs into his cup “Is that important? Aren't you busy sucking face with that backstabber?” 

Four takes a step back surprised, he then notices Beeg on the counter eating ice cream. Four sighs reaching for the ice cream only to get threatened by the child,  Four gives a nervous smile as the orange Four watches him. “If you need a name to call me by the others call me Delinquent or D for short, personally i don't care what you call me.”  He sips his tea before speaking up again. “What I am doesn't matter, I can feel your rejection.” He gets up and leaves the cafe, seeing this Four puts down Eggdog next to Beeg. Once outside the cafe Four reaches out to Delinquent “Wait!” Both men pause hearing Three “Alright i hear you boys, is Four in that bad of shape?” Four smiles seeing Three on the path to the showgrounds with the others, his smile drops seeing his personality’s look at him with wide eyes “Original!” They all tackle him down for a group hug. Delinquent takes a side step to avoid the affection, Three looks around and sees Beeg and Eggdog watching the hug. He smiles feeling relief that his son was safe, that's when his eyes locked into orange ones. Three nods “So you're the missing one, nice to me-” Delinquent scoffs not letting Three finish talking “I don't need to hear words from a backstabber.” 

The group hug ended the moment the crew heard Delinquents words, Parent gets up frowning at him “Now D thats no way to treat our boyfriend, he's not that man anymore.” Ringmaster nods as he walks over to Three putting his arm around the man “Yeah that's the fans favorite arc, it makes the shippers go wild!” Delinquent crosses his arms looking Three up and down, then he looks at Four. He rolls his eyes, he turns from the group “Not going to listen to a failure of a leader and a man with so much ego he can't keep it in check.” SMG4, getting sick of the attitude of his personality, stands up glaring at him “What is your problem? You have been nothing but an asshole pushing us all away!” Delinquent shrugs “Who knows, maybe you're just not happy looking in the mirror.” Three reaches out to Delinquent only for the man to walk away, his hair touching Three’s gloves. Three frowns looking at his hand “huh? Ink?” looking at his glove a strange black stain was on it. He sniffs the stain and stares confused by the chemical scent, Four sighs watching Delinquent walk away. He turns and gives a small smile at the others “How did you all know?” 

Producer smiles “We felt you, there was a moment we all were connected. T-that's when we knew you needed help.” Four smiles at Producer before it clicked that he never got to learn who Parent or Delinquent were, he turns and gives a sheepish smile “Sorry that we started off pretty rough, want to give us your introduction?”  Parent giggles as he walks over to the kids patting their heads “That's okay our kids are more important. Ahem as you know im Parent, I'm your parental side and I'm also the leader of the group!”  Three walks next to Four looking at the group, things have turned completely different from what happened to him.  He peeks a quick look at Four, he knew the idiot for a long time to know that Four is about ready to scream into the void. “Hey everyone, could you all stay at the castle and wait till we return. I have something important to talk about with Four.” The group give him a thumbs up as they walk toward the castle, Ringmaster twirls his cane as they walk to their home “At least we are all together again, no thanks to your leadership Parent.”  Parent stops walking as his face drops. “Haha you're funny, if it wasn't for my leadership we wouldn't have found the kids!” Parent forces out a smile as Producer frowns and shyly looks at him “Didn't D and our Original find the kids,” Producer  plays with his sleeves “we failed them so badly…oh memes do you think he hates us now?!”  Artist gently pats his back “Are you squidding me? He doesn't hate us, if anything he seemed really happy to see us back there!” As the group chatted happily, Parent stayed a few steps back staring at them “Nothing but a failure huh?” 

Three turns to Four blushing as he shyly pulls the man close to him “No one is around but me, you don't have to keep the act up Baka.” Four’s eyes go wide as his vision blurs from his tears, he hugs Three as he cries into the man's chest.  Three rubs Fours back “Nothing is wrong with you, together we will figure out what caused this. We will fix this after all someone like me managed to do it, there is no way the great SMG4 cant.” Four lets out a giggle as he pulls away wiping his tears “Wow never thought i hear those words from you.” Three’s face turns a darker shade of red “Shut it or I'm leaving you here with your snot!’ Four laughs harder as he leans forward giving a kiss on Three's cheek, feeling the kiss Three let himself smile and laugh alongside Four. While they don't know how they will manage six personalities, they were confident they would figure it out as long as they had each other. 

[ilikekidsshows]

Another thing that plays into the show's handling of Adrien is actually making the discourse about his "true self" canon. Because now, you have both the fandom and the show trying to argue that how Adrien acts as Cat Noir is a mask, even though, like. He gains absolutely nothing from acting like a clown. It also can't have anything to do with him hiding his vulnerability or something, because Adrien has always been upfront about what he's feeling. So, when other characters try to go "no, Adrien, that's not your true self" (like Kagami in the art room scene) it feels like they're trying to avoid accepting that Adrien's true self is whatever he says it is.

---

It's all because the writers only treat Adrien as Marinette’s trophy boyfriend and perfect RealDoll now. If Adrien's Cat Noir persona was still part of him, that would mean that he was no longer the perfect servant who only cares about Marinette’s comfort and growth. It would mean that Marinette would have to accept him making corny jokes instead of him only doing things that please her. Could you imagine if the amazing goddess had to accept something about her boyfriend that didn't exist solely to benefit her, that might even, god forbid, annoy her? It's so unthinkably awful, it would ruin Marinette’s dream romance.

Most likely the writers intended to just phase out those personality traits from Adrien to make him a more perfect prize to Marinette, but it actually makes disturbing sense in-universe and ruins his relationships with the rest of the cast, including the ones the writers want us to root for, further. Adrien is an abuse victim, and he pushed his own wants and feelings down to appease others. This includes his desire to act out and be funny. So, when we get Kagami insisting him goofing off isn't the “real him”, it actually comes across as her telling him he isn’t allowed to be like that. Similarly, he’s now dating Marinette, and he’s known since ‘Puppeteer 2’, that she doesn’t like his jokes, he says: “I know, I’m not good with jokes. The girl I’m in love with doesn’t like them either.”

Even now, Marinette’s idea of Adrien’s “happiness” is him pretending it doesn’t hurt him when the people around him glorify his abuser. Adrien is complacent but secretly miserable, but it’s okay, because it’s a secret misery so Marinette doesn’t have to have uncomfortable conversations with him or go through effort to support him.

Everyone Adrien loves gives him the condition that he must be flawless and not try to be funny. It’s a pattern of the love Adrien receives being conditional and reliant on him pushing down any desire he might have to act out in a way that used to make him happy. The writers pretend Adrien was never really a goofball, but he was, and the reason he isn’t is that the people around him would rather he be demure and complacent than genuinely happy in a way they don’t approve of.

The writers insist on pretending Adrien’s abuse didn’t happen, but it did, so everything they do with Adrien’s character is now just perpetuating his abuse to keep him pigeon-holed in the role of Marinette’s perfect boytoy.

[musicalmoritz]

I would ask more but I forgot the numbers so uhm?? Every other number I haven’t asked but for TBHK??

Hehe ask and you shall receive😈🔥

the character everyone gets wrong

There are so many…Teru is a big one, most fans fail to see that everything he does is self-sacrificial and he is far from pure evil. No, Akane is not a sexual assaulter/harasser, and he has a personality outside of Aoi. No, Nene is not flawless nor a pick-me but she’s not intentionally awful either. Hanako is meant to be sympathetic, he’s not just a killer or a “yandere.” Aoi is more than her ships, that goes for both Aoinene and Terukaneaoi. Hakubo is NOT a groomer and yes he has emotions. Mitsuba is one of the kindest, most empathetic characters in the series. Kou is increasingly becoming more selfish and has quite a few faults. Sumire is her own character beyond all the characters people compare her to. Tsukasa has many selfless qualities and is not just an abusive murderer. Sakura is more emotional than people give them credit for. Natsuhiko is not purely silly but he’s not totally heartless either. Mei and Shijima are not the exact same, and they both have personality traits outside of yuri shipping. I could go on forever tbh

compelling argument for why your fave would never top or bottom

*picks up sand and lets it fall between my fingers* I haven’t touched top/bottom discourse in so long…how have I lost the freak part of my brand…I’m the same person who wrote a fic for every day of Bottom Dazai Week. There aren’t many characters to pick from for this one since tbhk is set at a high school. I think I’m gonna go with Yako, I cannot see her topping because, well, look at her. That is a bratty bottom if I’ve ever seen one

screenshot or description of the worst take you've seen on tumblr

Already answered

what was the last straw that made you finally block that annoying person?

Already answered

worst discord server and why

I’m not in any discord servers

which ship fans are the most annoying?

Already answered

what character did you begin to hate not because of canon but because how how the fandom acts about them?

Already answered

common fandom opinion that everyone is wrong about

Hmmmmm…I think I’m gonna bring up the Kou mischaracterization again, so many fans will die on the hill that he’s never done anything wrong in his life and I hate it. He canonically wants Mitsuba to depend on him to the point of being useless, and we’ve also seen him hold Mitsuba down and attempt to force-feed him. I’ll also say I don’t like the way the fandom handles the Sousuke vs. Mitsuba thing, they either view them as entirely the same or entirely separate when neither are true. They share a soul, but are different people

worst part of canon

I know I should say the twincest bait but I have a personal hatred for the scene where Hanako possesses Nene. Obviously the twincest thing is bad too but at least that has some plausible deniability yk. And they kinda stopped doing it at some point. Whereas Hanako SAing Aoi and Nene at the same time is an undeniable thing that happened on screen and was never addressed again. The fact that Kou didn’t help bcuz he found it hot also made me cringe. Idk I just wish the scene hadn’t been included, it was very odd. Felt like an excuse to throw in some lesbian fan service without committing to having lesbian characters

worst part of fanon

Already answered this

number of fandom-related words you've filtered

A total of 29 for all fandoms combined…I don’t have many squicks but the ones I do have are intense. It’s pretty much all just ships I don’t want to see. I have some ship tags that I unfiltered because I ended up liking them (TsuMitsu, Tsunene). But my current count is 29

the unpopular character that you actually like and why more people should like them

FUCKING HAKUBO I love him to death. Tsukasa too but the Hakubo hate makes me extra irritated because it’s very obviously racially motivated that fans are unwilling to see him as an actual character and instead just shove villainized traits onto him in order to justify their hate. It’s as though nobody read his arc, or more like people did in fact read it but nobody even attempted to understand it because they subconsciously didn’t want to care about a black character. While he isn’t the only character to be called abusive, it has very different undertones with him due to the stereotype about black men being violent. Yes he does act violently in certain scenes but fans overlook why he does that, and the fact that he has very strict morals with him refusing to kill children.

There are many things to like about Hakubo, he’s one of the most well-written characters in the manga. First of all, his character design is very badass; I’m not into dudes but imo he should be the designated Adult Male Character To Simp For instead of Tsuchigomori (Teacher Amane is also valid). He’s got a sense of humor that fans don’t seem to pick up on, it’s cute to me how often he teases Sumire. His entire arc is marked with tragedy, the kinda angst fans usually eat up. He spent his entire life thinking he didn’t have feelings, and he didn’t realize he did until he was forced to kill the person who made him feel the strongest. I mean c’mon!! That is top tier angst. Arguably the saddest part of the manga. And the scene where he kills Sumire’s village to avenge her???? Easily one of my favorite scenes, it was so metal. He’s also got blorbo potential because despite being a literal god of death, he is ultimately Just Some Guy. Half the time just kinda stares at people. And also the dehumanization he went through at the hands of the Minamoto clan is my prime reason for hating them (aside from the main siblings and their mom). His story is so upsetting like this man has never had an easy life. And I just want to hug him. Guys please stan Hakubo he deserves all the love in the world

worst blorboficiation

I do not know what this means- ohhhhh wait it just clicked for me. Teru. So many fans dumb down his character due to him being “silly.” And don’t get me wrong, that is absolutely a side of his personality. He is very goofy and likes to tease people and canonically has an atrocious fashion sense. But some fans reduce him to those more comedic traits and ignore his flaws and trauma, and subsequently every other side of his personality. He is sadistic and charming and highly intelligent despite not being educated on domestic tasks. He may not be able to survive in like a regular house on his own but if the gang got stranded on an island together, he would be their leader. Multiple things can be true at once yk

that one thing you see in fics all the time

So not to come for my own gang but I’m a little burnt out on one-sided Aoinene, especially when Nene is fawning over some man instead. I know it’s more accurate to canon but since when do gay shippers care about canon??? We’re supposed to be the creative ones. I still enjoy those fics because people work hard on them but unrequited love is like my least favorite trope ever. Besides, we see one-sided Aoinene all the time. At this point, the trope is overdone. Let’s start focusing more on Nene’s side of things, I want to see her get flustered over her girlfriend. I also think it’s funny that Nene gets written as straight so often considering the fact that she canonically blushed at Sakura and called her a babe. Not to mention the queer undertones of her friendships with Mei and Aoi. She is more likely to be queer than Aoi so I find it weird that so many Aoinene shippers ignore that potential side of her character. Let Nene be the simp for once

that one thing you see in fanart all the time

I can’t talk too much shit here bcuz unlike with fanfics I am contributing nothing in this area. But I personally don’t rly like it when people draw fem!Kou as super feminine. That is my butch daughter

you can't understand why so many people like this thing (characterization, trope, headcanon, etc)

One-sided Terukane. Just like with Aoinene idc if it’s more accurate to canon, I just can’t get behind it. Akane’s dilemma over falling for someone who isn’t Aoi is such an interesting concept, even if he eventually picks Aoi I’d like to see it explored more in Terukane angst. But ultimately I prefer fanon Terukane over canon Terukane anyways. I want them to be healthily married husbands

there should be more of this type of fic/art

Horror fics and any type of dark romance. They’re only rly common in this fandom among incest pairings which I don’t especially want to read about. And even then it’s all SA which isn’t very creative in terms of horror. C’mon guys, this is tbhk, we need to make our fanfics more fucked up. But like fucked up in a good way. I’ve read a couple reallyyyyyy good fucky Aoinene fics that utilize Aoi’s temporary canon death, usually involving her haunting Nene or Nene hallucinating her, and I would love to see more of that with them. Also more Mitsukou kidnapping and/or cannibalism fics please. More toxic yuri fics please. I am so tired of having to write all of it myself😣

it's absolutely criminal that the fandom has been sleeping on...

Aoimei!! We have semi-canon sapphics in this series and nobody gaf. Tbh Sakunene too bcuz they’re super gay. Usually fandoms go crazy over gay shit so whyyyyy aren’t we talking more about the lesbians??? Shippers in this fandom will bend over backwards to explain how Terukane and HanaKou are queercoded but when it comes to Mei and Aoi going out or Nene calling Sakura a babe, it’s near radio silence. Even the yuri shippers don’t talk about yuri that much. Do better/lh

you're mad/ashamed/horrified you actually kind of like...

Tsumitsukou…I know they’re toxic as hell but I think Mitsuba deserves two insane boyfriends, I think he would love that. Wait hold on, idk why I felt the need to give a disclaimer. Forgot who I was replying to for a sec LMAO

part of canon you found tedious or boring

There’s actually not much I dislike about this manga. I used to get tired of the Misaki Stairs arc bcuz I reread/rewatched it so many times but it ended up growing on me. I don’t think there’s any arc or plot point that’s bored me

part of canon you think is overhyped

…Can I say the Yugi twins lore?? Is that allowed?? I love love love the ppl in this fandom who analyze it because they are so smart but I’m personally not as invested in it as the rest of the story. Again, I don’t necessarily find it boring, but there are other characters I want to know about more (Sakura and Natsuhiko)

your favorite part of canon that everyone else ignores

The way everything connects back to the Minamoto lore!! Nagisa being related to Misaki and Kunishige, then the Yugi mom going to that same shrine for help, Nene and Aoi both being kannagi, Hakubo and Sumire and Katakuri’s stories. It’s so cool to me how closely woven together the plot is

ship you've unwillingly come around to

TeruAoi. I was such a massive hater at first because they gave big “that is a gay man and a lesbian” energy but then I realized that two things can be true at once bcuz within fanon exists multiple AUs and outcomes. Yes sometimes that is a gay man and a lesbian, but sometimes that is a happy bisexual couple. Sometimes that’s a happy lesbian couple. So many options. I also love their dynamic in canon, I choose to read their little love triangle with Akane as a polyamorous relationship and no one can stop me. I also love Aoi to death and think she deserves all the love

topic that brings up the most rancid discourse

This is another one where twincest is the obvious answer but I have some additional ones as well. Any themes of sex in the manga. While it is valid to criticize the sexualization of teenaged characters, some fans take it to the extreme of denying or shunning any sexual themes at all, which happen mainly with the adult characters (aka Hakubo and Sumire). And also the discourse surrounding Mitsuba’s sexuality and the canon status of Mitsukou, which shouldn’t even exist. Mitsuba is gay, Mitsukou is canon. End it discussion

common fandom complaint that you're sick of hearing

Already answered this

Thank you for this ask, I really enjoyed getting to give my hot takes without holding back!! If you disagree with any of these please do not be offended, these are all just my opinions. And ofc if anyone wants to see me do this with another fandom, just say the word <3

[klaraslevi]

Levi and the most irrelevant topics about his character

I have been seeing so much discourse in the fandom lately so I wanted to clear a few things up. I think Levi and his great character gets lost in all the pointless discourse.

His sexuality

Oh boy, you people make me irritated with this one. It was never confirmed or brought up simply because it doesn't matter, it is irrelevant as it gets especially for a character like Levi.

One thing I see poeple often bring up a is an "interview" where Isayama supposedly says that Levi like tall people and I would like to make one thing clear, that is an answer with no written down evidence or an actual translation. There is a version where Isayama says "does he like women?" And then there is another version which says "the type of women he likes?" Among 30 other translations and some fans saying that this was never even said, you cannot take this as canon, let alone give someone a screenshot from a random article online to convince people into your headcanons. This interview, be it fake or not, is not canon evidence and shouldn't be taken so seriously. In canon? Levi showed no interest in either genders. Using offical art as evidence that he is straight or gay based on way he is sitting standing or how he dresses is the dumbest thing ever and I don't even think I have to tell you why.

Bottom line: Levi has no confirmed sexuality, he could be straight, bi, gay, pan, ace etc. It is irrelevant to his character and wouldn't change a thing about him. You're free to headcanon Levi as you like just don't push it onto canon when none of us know and quite frankly, shouldn't care that much about it.

Ship wars/ships/Levi's love interest

Again, another topic that people take way too seriously. Ship wars for Levi shouldn't even exist but he is among the most popular anime characters so I suppose naturally they will. Levi doesn't have a canon love interest and no matter how much some push thier ships into canon, it won't change that fact. The shipping fandom is having fun most of the time and you actually going into thier spaces to hate on them is stupid.

Shipping community is huge and most poeple are having fun. You cannot group a whole shipping fandom into the toxic bunch which I see so many poeple do. No Eruri's, Levihan's, Rivetra's, self interests etc. aren't all bad because you saw one toxic fan send hate to people who don't ship or ship a certain pairing. People seem to forget that the person they are attacking over FICTIONAL CHARACTERS is an actual person, with hobbies and emotions. Sending someone death threats or hat over a ship they ship or don't ship makes you an asshole and shouldn't be a thing.

Fun fact: Japanese fandom has a name for poeple discussing Levi and his love life. They call it "landmine" because it's so irrelevant and poeple get so worked up over who he should/shouldn't be with rather than just acknowledging the story and his character for what it is.

Bottom line: Levi has no canon ship or a love interest. Headcanons are fine and having an opinion is too but pushing it onto canon and hating on poeple because of ships is not a way to go.

The sub or dom debate

Do I even have to explain to poeple why this is stupid?

It's mostly discourse around Levi x reader writers on here and other platforms. I am a Levi x reader writer, I have a separate blog for that but as I said many times before, those things are just my little fantasies and I never push those into Levi and his actual character. I see so many get worked up when someone sees Levi as a Dom or a sub and someone doesn't agree. This is fanfiction, it is not an analysis on his character. We don't know how Levi is during sex or if he even had sex in the first place and the fact that people actually get so worked up over it is ridiculous. This is super irrelevant, has zero baring on Levi and his decisions in canon. I have my headcanon, we all do but let's not pretend like we actually know anything about Levi in this context because we don't and it's the last thing we should focus on. None us are right, it is not that deep that someone sees Levi as a sub while you see him a Dom, trust me, this shouldn't be in discussion, it had nothing to do with canon. And who even actually cares? How does this affect Levi?

__________________________________________

Levi is a great and complex character, the fact that people let all his qualities get lost in such discourses is upsetting. We can't decide these things because we emotionally attached ourselves to a headcanon or a ship. Levi is not something because you "feel" he is, remember facts over feelings. Worrying about these irrelevant things makes Levi's character get lost in pointless and never ending debates.

[inkpotsprite]

hii :) for the violence ask game: 7, 13,16 and 24 <3

Hi! :D Thank you for choosing some of the most terrifying questions here, you definitely know how to get me rambling.

Right *cracks knuckles* let's get to it. Buckle up, this is gonna be LONG.

7. What character did you begin to hate not because of canon but because of how the fandom acts about them?

Actually there's a funny story here bc when I first got into this fandom, it was through fanfic and that was the only way I interacted with it for the first year or so. With that in mind, I loved reading Tim fics and a lot of Tim fics are not very nice to Dick or Steph.

Dick, in particular I genuinely hated for the first six months bc I actually believed he tried to put Tim in Arkham and was like 'wtf???' So in a way how fandom treated Dick as a caricature of himself alongside making him comically awful made me hate him for a while.

With Steph, it was more like 'why are you only written as Tim's waffle loving ex who faked her death supposedly???' I actually thought she was funny and liked how bold she could be when written well, but fanon's portrayal actually stopped me from fully loving her until I read Batgirl 2000 and spiralled from there.

13. Worst blorborfication

It's actually so hard to choose but I think I have to just say Tim. The sick, abandoned, Victorian boy trope fanon assigns to him is TIRING.

Not to say I don't love indulging in Tim angst, hell, I write a lot of it. But this whole underweight, wet kitten thing the fandom has going on in regards to him is just...no. He's not a poor, helpless baby, he's a little asshole surrounded by other assholes and sometimes that backfires.

And the whole "every character but Tim is a villain" along with ignoring the other characters' pain just to focus on his is just plain bad storytelling too. Not to say you can't focus on it, again, I do, but Dick, Steph and Damian aren't the devils incarnate just because they made Tim sad a few times. They're just flawed, complicated, hurt people like he is which I think makes for a more interesting story rather than mindlessly villainising them.

16. You can't understand why so many people like this thing (characterization, tropes, headcanons etc)

Hoo boy I could go for DAYS about this one. But to restrain myself, I'll focus on two characterizations that I really don't understand why people use/like so much.

"Duke is the normal one" is not only untrue, but such a dull way to characterize a funny, interesting and complex character. The guy's a lil hater who roasts people mostly unprovoked, it's hilarious. I just don't understand why people use it at all because it does nothing, adds nothing and only serves to make people who actually like Duke want to scream into the abyss.

Also Cass being the perfect, silent, well adjusted sister *snorts* that woman wouldn't know well adjusted if it kicked her in the face (affectionate) and the only "perfect" ideal she reaches is being a perfect fighter - at least in her eyes, I personally think her self preservation instincts could use some work but I digress.

24. Topic that brings up the most rancid discourse.

Ooooh you're spoiling me with this question. The DC fandom has so much rancid discourse bc it has a lot of issues with, well, anyone who isn't a member of the "fab five." But I'll behave and just focus on one.

A topic that really brings out an ugly side to this fandom is anything to do with Talia al Ghul. Her and Jason? "Evil, brainwashing lady who slept with him!!" Her and Bruce? "Evil, seductive lady who roofied him!!" Her and Damian? "Evil, cold hearted lady who hates her son!!" Her and Tim? "Evil, mean lady who made Jason and Damian try to kill him!!"

It is truly ENDLESS. Talia would probably get blamed for one of the guys stubbing their toe at this point if the fandom saw fit. So yeah, arguments can get real ugly over here when Talia discourse comes up.

Thanks so much for giving me the chance to rant and rave like a drunk preacher on a soapbox!!! 💜💜💜

[isabellaapotter]

since httyd is trending again i’ve seen a lot of discourse about the hidden world so here’s my opinion.

as much as I PERSONALLY don’t like that hiccup and toothless get separated at the end (because it makes me cry like a baby), i think it wraps the story up nicely. my thing is i wish it wasn’t for a girl. hiccup and astrid have a relationship for the entirety of the last two movies, and hiccup never ever chose between them, he couldn’t it was his girlfriend and his best friend. and i don’t like how the writers dismiss toothless as some girl crazy teenager, cause he’s literally not.

hiccup and toothless were each others home for 6+ YEARS. i personally don’t believe toothless would have thrown that away for a girl and i wish the writers didn’t portray him like that.

HOWEVER, i do think toothless leaving at the end (in whatever way that would have happened) was necessary. hiccup giving him back his independence WAS necessary. AND the monologue hiccup gives at the end “there were dragons when i was a boy…” almost brings it to life. like it’s “canon compliant” with real life, if you will. it shows that there actaully COULD be dragons hidden somewhere, and that the events of all three movies are true, and we just don’t see them cause they’re waiting until we can all get along (which, let’s face it, is not now).

if you believe in that type of stuff, which i do, then dragons could truly be real somewhere and I like that idea better. that instead of it just being a movie franchise and complete fiction, it gives it that little bit of what if? what if they are real, and we just can’t see them get?

anyways i am actually the biggest httyd stan EVER and i approve the new LA so if anyone says its bad then they’re wrong.

[ryin-silverfish]

The Nezha 2025 Analysis Post

…Which is less of an analysis of the movie itself and more about related stuff outside the movie. What could I say, giant tangents and infodumps are kinda my thing.

I'll admit, I have complicated feelings about Nezha 2.

Not the movie itself, which I love as its own thing——a lot of people do. And having read folk storytelling and opera stuff with more vulgar humor, I really don't mind the same toilet humor that is also in the 2019 movie.

It's the fandom's possible response that gives me the looming sense of anxiety.

The less said about the Age Discourse, the better, but honestly, the proliferation of the "Demon Child" thing outside of its tailor-made context has just tired me out.

Like, when I'm reading Nezha fanfictions in Chinese, folks usually acknowledge that their works are 2019/2025 specific, and there are fandoms for different Nezhas in modern adaptations, vernacular novels, and broader mythology. And when they bring in FSYY stuff, they also tell you in the Author's Notes.

As is true for all fanfiction everywhere, there are still ones who don't follow that convention, overwhelming focus on Nezha 1979/2019/2025, and takes I personally find bewildering. But generally, it's easier to look for works that suit my taste and fanfics of FSYY novel alone.

…That's very much not the case for English fanfics of Chinese Mythos-inspired media. Of all things, it's the fandom of JTTW adjacent medias that latched onto the 2019/2025 "Demon Child" story, with a heavy dose of Nezha 1979, and pretty much treats it like mythological canon that's true for all Nezhas everywhere.

[Spoilers Under the Cut]

With that in mind, it's perhaps not so strange that my first thought, after the excitement and hype has calmed down, is "Please don't let Villainous Chan Sect be the new 'Demon Child' of the fandom."

So far, my fears haven't come true, because most people don't seem to recognize the Chan Sect as a faction distinct from generic "celestials" of the Heavenly Realm. Kinda sad in its own way, but still better than, well, the alternatives.

(Obviously, this is also not a "You Shouldn't Write Demon Child Nezha At All In Non-2019/2025 Fanworks" post. Like, who the fuck am I to dictate what you can and can't write.)

(I simply like Novel! Nezha because I feel like it offers some interesting avenues of character explorations and scratches my particular itches, and wish folks would take more inspiration from that version. Your milage may differ and that's okay.)

The Chan Sect

To start off on a happy nerdy note: I love the movie's Chan 12 designs! They've done a good job of making each immortal looks unique and distinct, while also paying homage to the iconography of Buddhist deities Wenshu, Puxian, and Cihang are based on.

There's also the strong undertone that they aren't a monolith with the same stance on things, despite the briefness of their cameo: some of them are more obviously prejudiced, others are more cautious and reasonable, and a couple are playing the peacemaker.

However, the Jade Emptiness Palace as a whole…is where the complicated feelings come in.

Those who've read my other media analysis posts probably know that I'm not a big fan of JTTW Conspiracy Theories. Well, "Chan Sect Bad" are the JCT of the popular FSYY fandom.

I have such a personal dislike for JTTW Conspiracy Theory because 1) I dislike people projecting modern beliefs and anxieties onto a past author and claiming that's actually the authorial intention, period, and 2) the original novel has themes and messages and techniques I find valuable and still worth thinking about in the modern era, one that JCT doesn't engage with beyond the surface level and often ends up obscuring.

2) is also precisely why I'm not as concerned about FSYY adaptations making Chan Sect less righteous and more morally grey, because frankly, the original novel has some serious storytelling flaws.

It's an interesting setting and a project of pantheon-building, one that does go on to greatly influence folk religion.

But the main themes…well, "Fate Says So" and Neo-Confucian morality tracts, as they are presented in the novel, are not very engaging nor fitting for the modern world.

And because of a combination of values dissonance and Skill Issue on the author-compiler's part, Novel Chan Sect really isn't all that heroic to a modern audience.

Like, the author doesn't think they are flawless, but he certainly thinks of them as completely in the right…even though, to a modern reader, their disdain towards the Jie Sect's indiscriminate admission and their yaoguai disciples come off as pretty elitist and prejudiced, and some of the Chan 12 are overprotective of their disciples to the point of unfairness.

My problem isn't "Chan Sect can be morally ambiguous and kinda fucked up". It's "Chan Sect Bad", because more often than not, it depends on making Jie Sect into innocent victims of Yuanshi Tianzun's conspiracy to wipe out his biggest rival (and anti-yaoguai racism).

FYK: I'm a Jie liker because they have some of the most memorable characters in the whole book. Doesn't stop me from groaning whenever they decide to build another formation, though.

And it's precisely because I like them that I believe they deserve the same level of complexities, moral ambiguity, and fuck-ups.

Even if you ignore the horrible plague magic guy (Lv Yue) and the cannibal (Ma Yuan), Jie immortals are pretty distant from humanity, most don't really care about the shit King Zhou's up to as long as they are helping out their sectmates.

They also have no problem unleashing AOE spells and treasures of mass destruction on enemy combatants and civilians alike (Lv Yue again, Luo Xuan, the Han brothers' windmills and Huoling's Fire Dragon Soldiers, Winged Immortal's failed attempt at dumping an entire ocean on Xi Qi…).

And they are also massive, compared to their rivals. The sheer size and varieties of the sect (not to mention they live on a bunch of oceanic islands) also mean their biggest problem isn't so much indiscriminate admission as inadequete regulations: as Guangcheng Zi's visit to Biyou Palace has shown, even Patriarch Tongtian, their one charismatic leader, has problems reigning in his disciples when they are really set on doing something.

Which is a neat segway back into discussing the movie: the Chan Sect isn't evil per se, Wuliang is, but I feel like the theme of prejudice and fighting against institutionalized oppression can perhaps be made stronger than it already is, with more attention to the possible nuances of the Chan-Jie conflict.

Movie Chan Sect and the Differences

Now, to be fair, there are quite a few allusions to the upcoming War of Investiture.

The Chan 12 had a meeting to discuss the exact thing, and Wuliang used "strengthening the sect and turning the odds in our favor" as a justification for his terrible deeds——capture random yaoguais who are just minding their own business and make them into pills to power up Chan disciples.

(Fun Fact: Wuliang's design is heavily inspired by the Old Man of the South Pole, who's the senior brother of both JZY and Shen Gongbao in the novel and Yuanshi Tianzun's disciple.)

Still, when I see the Jade Emptiness Palace disciple ensemble, my first thought is "Darn, if there's a 3rd movie about the War of Investiture proper, how many Jie NPCs are gonna be squeezed onto the screen?"

I'm writing this down in jest, but the Jade Emptiness Palace as a sizeable sect with its own army, instead of a tiny group of 40+ named characters, changes the whole dynamic.

Like, you can argue that the named Chan characters in the novel aren't the whole faction, and there are more offscreen disciples.

However, when Sage Randeng saw the Ten Thousand Immortal Formation for the first time in Chapter 82, his reaction is "Darn, they have so many people, while ours can be counted on one hand."

They very much recognize their own disadvantage in numbers, and personally, I'd prefer the Chan Sect's most questionable deeds to be a direct consequence of their small size and extremely selective admission.

Say, if the Chan Sect only has several dozen members in total, them playing dirty, being merciless towards their foes, and trying to give themselves advantages at all costs seems a lot more natural as a result——they are hamstrung by their own elitism, yet instead of being less elitist, they choose to double down on their deep-seated beliefs.

In the movie, where the Chan Sect is a sizeable army and dominant faction, Wuliang's conspiracies come across less as an elitist minority fucking themselves over and deciding to go after the symptoms instead of the core causes, and more like a corrupt, powerful mainstream authority making their dominance even more absolute.

Which is fine for an animated movie made for an all-age audience: a narrative with clearer good and bad guys probably appeals more to the younger kids watching. I still can't help but wonder about the possibilities and potential of a greyer narrative, though.

Like, I kinda wish that, during the trials, they are going after a mixture of your typical man-eating ne'er-do-well yaoguais AS WELL AS the ones who are just minding their own business, and the pill-making being much less of a secret thing——shouldn't they receive their just dessert and punishment for harming so many humans? It's not like we go after yaoguais just for being yaoguais, some of our best disciples are cultivated beasts, we only capture the Bad Ones.

Sadly, our rivals don't give a crap about what their disciples do outside of Biyou Palace after they finished their studies, whether they'll use their new cultivation for good or harm.

Well, if they won't hold their own accountable, someone has to do it for them, and they have the gall to call US unfair for treating them like the selfish, cruel villains they are! Like they aren't using their numbers advantage to strongarm US!

The most convincing lies are the ones mixed with truths, and the liars themselves believe wholeheartedly.

The Giant Tangent

…Fun fact: back when I still binge-read WeChat articles, I've learned the fun trivia that some Chinese parents of ADHD kids refer to their kids affectionately as "Wukongs" and "Nezhas".

No idea how popular that is, or whether it's still true after a few years, but also: a bunch of ADHD/ASD support group accounts I followed brought up Nezha 2019 as either very relatable for special eds kids, or a metaphor for their experience.

As an adult AutiHDer who volunteers for special eds extracurricular classes during my breaks, I completely get it.

Seriously, for kids who get diagnosed while they were kids but aren't "disabled enough" for special eds schools, the Chinese schooling system SUCKS.

Like, you can literally be kicked out of kindergartens or primary schools because your symptoms are too disruptive and other parents/teachers are worried about you being a "bad influence" dragging the rest of your classmates down.

2019! Nezha's whole "If I can do nothing right, why should I even try to be anything other than the menace they see me as?" attitude is painfully real for a lot of ADHD & ASD kids IRL, and the first half of Nezha 2025 certainly gives me similar feelings.

(Aside from the literal pills scene. Totally not the authorial intention, but damn, isn't that my exact experience with wrong medication dosage /j)

For the kids that do manage to stay in the regular schooling system, there is still the strong attitude of "You will only be accepted if you match up to our standards (pass the tests, get good grades, prove that you can sit down and study like everyone else)".

Which is Nezha's experience in the Jade Emptiness Palace too. And indeed, you see Nezha trying to match up to their standards too ("I will become an immortal!").

However, the second half of the movie (the dividing point being the conclusion of the 2nd Trial)…kinda deviates from this potential metaphor into something more fantastical, which is okay; they are trying to do more than one thing.

(There's also the fact that Movie Chan Sect is subtly designed to be an US expy——just look at their sect logo on the jade tablet.)

(And honestly, I don't have too much of an opinion on that. Like, the anti-US sentiment is just the background constant of modern Chinese pop culture, and I only get annoyed when it isn't attached to a good story and too in-your-face in terms of execution, to the point where you can't read it as anything else.)

(I do think that Chan Sect, as it's written in the novel, is an odd fit for that particular metaphor, though.)

However, it does mean I personally enjoy the first half of 2025 more than the second half, while liking the movie as a whole.

To connect it back to my Chan-Jie analysis, an alternate narrative could perhaps emphasize the "Good/Bad Yaoguais and Demons" divide a bit more.

Like…even when a special eds kid is lucky enough to be part of the normal education system and recognized for their achievements, their difficulties are rarely acknowledged, not to mention the idea that maybe the system itself is failing the kids.

Instead, they are made into inspirations. They've worked hard to "conquer" their inborn defects, become normal and even exceptional through hard work, and if you try hard enough, you can be like them too!

(The assumption is, if you can't be like them, you must not be trying hard enough.)

At the same time, asking for accommodations and acceptance are treated as excuses for laziness + demands of special treatment.

The courseload and stress are hard on literally everyone else too, how come you get to be treated any differently? If society won't be lenient on you once you graduated, neither should the teachers, and being harsh on you right now is just preparing you for the Real World.

(tbh, Shen Gongbao's dad reminds me the most of that attitude.)

A more nuanced, but still fucked-up Chan Sect could similarly view their deeds as a matter of Equal Enforcement of Consequences. We don't just make yaoguais into pills either, the Bad Human Immortals also get the same treatment.

You aren't pressured to hide your "demonic" presence and conceal your true form because you are a demon, we just have strict regulation on all of our disciples' conducts and high expectations.

Of course, in practice, enough folks don't practice what they preach while still believing they are only going after the Bad Ones, it's just that there are a lot more Bad Ones among yaoguai-kind.

But even if they do act perfectly just by their own standards, who died and made them the boss? How are they qualified to be the arbitator of Good and Bad?

On the flip side…if the Jie stereotype is formations "You killed my sectmate, prepare to die", the Chan stereotype is 护短——being overprotective and enabling of their disciples in most cases that don't involve outright, explicit betrayal with no possibility of reconcilation.

So even though, in general, their acceptance and camaraderie is conditional, their high standards are mixed with equally high praises and lavishing of attention and goodies upon the "inspirational" juniors who meet their expectations.

If you are good enough to pass the trials (get good grades, aren't overly disruptive and aggressive), we literally can't care less about anything else.

(Unfortunately true based on my volunteer experience, where some parents just, straight-up deny that their kids have ASD even with a diagnosis at very young age, incredible distress as a result of their disabilities, and next to no independent living skills outside of a classroom setting, because they can quietly sit in class and get good grades.)

And that element of what seems like genuine acceptance and "tough love" and "everyone has to earn their place" can really make it more of a struggle to openly reject the whole system, to tell them, to their faces, that their very standards are broken and you will not let them define your worth.

Like, they aren't friendly, but overall still more accepting than the village kids back in the 1st movie, and between the doubting rumors, there are also folks going "Maybe he's like that winged student of Yunzhong Zi?" or "Gosh, I hope he's less annoying than that Tianhua kid".

Just, you get the feeling that they are kinda stuck-up, but also see Nezha as far less of an outlier and someone on his way to prove his worth, and the dangling of potential new peers and communities out of sight makes him eager to become an immortal for reasons other than the desire to save Chentang Pass.

(Or, on a less sympathetic note: it means an "exceptional" junior is free to be an ass to others and has their misbehaviors swept under the rug by their masters, as long as they don't step over the serious red lines.)

IDK, but I feel like the mirroring of prejudices in an institutional setting could be made a lot stronger if Wuliang isn't the sole Evil Villain Guy Orchestrating Conspiracies and the disciples of Jade Emptiness Palace are just obedient drones, but a matter of sect-wide attitude and strong beliefs forged by their Small Sect Who Only Accepts the Best of the Best nature.

Appendix

By the time I finished this, I've seen a bunch of Chinese speculations for Nezha 3 that are all "Ohhhhh they are totally gonna wreck the Jade Emptiness Palace!", mixed with your typical Edgy Conspiracy takes, which…makes me feel like I haven't been salty enough about the "Chan Sect Bad" thing.

Maybe, on some corner of the internet, that would get me called a Chan apologist or something. (shrug)

Nah, mate. I just think that exploring FSYY as an actual war and its ramifications for everyone involved is an interesting direction that very few modern FSYY adaptations have actually taken, and also, "Chan Sect Bad" really is just JCT-lite: same underlying logic, annoys me less.

Like, if every adaptation is a conversation between the adaptation and its parental work, JCT is the equivalent of stuffing a sock into the parental work's mouth before it can speak, then starting to wax poetics about how you totally understand its Deep Scathing Satire TM.

FSYY Conspiracy Theory is also stuffing a sock into the parental work's mouth, but after the parental work regurgitated another thinly disguised Neo-Confucian morality tract at you and showed no sign of getting back to the Cool Parts.

A bit more understandable, but I still think carefully listening to + thinking about what the parental work has said is necessary for a good conversation, even if you disagree with everything that comes out of its mouth and your reply is a ruthless takedown.

And if you want to make "Chan Sect Bad" central to your work, I'd prefer that they are at least uniquely bad——as in, you can't just replace the Celestial Realm in a setting that runs on JCT with Villainous Chan Sect, and have the story play out largely in the same way.

Like, make it so that they are not just another Feudal Propriety/Oppressive Government metaphor, but ruthless divine combatants in a war of dynastic transistion who are working with the rebels.

(Yes, the Chan/Zhou side are, in fact, the rebels in the context of WOI. You can argue that Jade Emptiness Palace has more institutional prestige and legitimacy on the Shenmo side of things, but they are still supporting the rebellious Zhou against the Shang, a decision which the narrative felt the need to justify with many long, boring speeches.)

(Which honestly makes the idea of Chan Hegemony quite hilarious when their novel version fit the "ragtag group of rebels where almost all the top fighters were beneath the legal drinking age" image to a T.)

[elenamillefiori]

one thing that makes me particularly hopeful about june's transition in beyond canon is that in all likelihood we are going to get TWO distinct storylines out of it: one for meat june and one for candy june.

the last update had laid down the foundations of candy june's transition by putting on fragrant display her unwillingness to face her actual life as an adult who has to decide for herself who to be and what to do, as someone who has a personhood rather than a role to play and responsibilities rather than a quest to follow. she is so attached to the comfortable oppression of sburb that not only has she let it alienate her from everybody who was dear to her, she even reacts with palpable RELIEF (bordering on the villainous) at harry giving her an excuse to get back in the game, even if it's because he's decided he would rather fuck off into a hellhole adventure rather than have to deal with her.

meat june, on the other hand... is a corpse. this obviously puts her in a way different position, but it's ironically one that has a much clearer path to her coming out. despite being 20 years younger, this june has reached the logical endpoint of her candy counterpart's hyper-identification with the sburb narrative and has been consumed by it, getting killed in the progress of fulfilling her predestined role. her only hope for coming back to life is as a sprite in the new session, a literal sburb game piece; being thrust into this new state of being could very well be the triggering event for a serious, much-needed identity crisis. in addition, there's the matter of what she's been up to as a corpse: we don't have much explicit information about what the furthest ring/afterlife's like these days but presumably it now contains the noir city where catnapped and the hyperbolic helltier chamber take place in (the sprites who were left in the incipisphere are there, vriska reaches it through a pinhole in calliope's black hole, jasprose's fenestrated walls are connected to it...) so that also offers another avenue for meat june's personal journey to develop, especially given the connection between the problem sleuth characters living there and the vision of the table-and-chair from when ace dick played the game of life in death's bubble.

part of the reason i hope it turns out this way is that candy june's transition seems like it's shaping up to be a delicious mess, a story about a deeply traumatised trans woman cracking out of her egg right as her dysfunctional coping mechanisms have turned her own family and friends against her and are threatening to push her into a villainous role as dirk's counterpart, nominally benevolent yet just as destructively attached to the narrative, but it's also one that given the state of media discourse and the fandom would VERY easily be read in VERY bad faith ("oh snap john is transitioning but she's EVIL that will surely show all those trannies june truthers classic hussie trolling"), so showing off a more sympathetic transition narrative right alongside it could give the team enough cover to explore it fully.

anyway this is how grimdorks can still win (candy june and rose bond over being shunned and over their shared attachment to The Narrative so they get together; this development weirds THE FUCK out of the other characters and also generates absolutely radioactive wasteland levels of discourse from the worst people you can imagine)

[angels-heap]

Asides from the whole age gap valhoun discourse, why do you actually ship them? Like whats their dynamic im genuinely curious,,, i probably dont see it bc i cant see it as a cannon thing bc when I get interested in smth i often find myself sticking close to cannon unless its an AU

Oh yeah, valhoun's about as canon as freehoun (which is to say, Valve 100% did not intend for anyone to ship these two), but I'm a multishipper at heart despite being a canon stickler elsewhere. I think it's fun to imagine how Barney and Alyx would interact if they were put into Situations or if they spent more time together in canon. I've talked about the appeal of valhoun before (specifically here, here, and here that I could find), and other folks have also shared their thoughts. To summarize:

Unlike Gordon, Alyx and Barney are both (relatively) fleshed-out characters with known voices, mannerisms, personalities, and motivations. They don't seem to know each other well in canon, but this is never stated outright, so there's lots of room for interpretation. They're both a bit goofy/snarky, so there's potential for some excellent banter between them, and I personally find it easier to get into their heads (relative to Gordon's) and imagine them interacting for writing purposes, since I don't have to start from scratch.

Despite their age gap, Barney and Alyx have a lot in common and a lot to bond over (arguably more than other popular pairings; see the "none of us are free of sin" venn diagram). They've spent the same amount of time living on Combine-occupied earth and lost a significant chunk of their lives (Alyx's childhood; Barney's young adulthood) under Combine rule. They're both uniquely connected to Black Mesa and the resonance cascade. Perhaps most importantly, they're both involved with the Resistance, albeit in very different capacities, which entails shared goals and loyalties.

Because of their age gap, they're bound to encounter situational or interpersonal conflicts, which are an essential component of any compelling story. For instance, Barney remembers things and people from the Before Times that Alyx doesn't, but probably desperately wants to — possibly including her late mother. Alyx is optimistic and resilient in a way that Barney never will be but may find refreshing, because despite her best efforts, she can't fully comprehend what was lost and thus has not developed the same bitterness. I can also see her canonical empathy and naivete coming into play in a relationship with Barney (or anyone else, for that matter). I've said before that she approaches him like he's a stray dog she wants to rescue, and he regards her like a gift he doesn't deserve (that might also be a ticking time bomb). While I could go on for hours, I think that about sums it up.

There's potential for a whole "star-crossed lovers" dynamic here, if you squint. Whether they're just friends, or they're in love, or they're just hooking up to try and feel something, the fact remains that they can't develop any sort of meaningful relationship while Barney's undercover and Alyx is such a valuable Combine target. Any interactions between them are likely to be fleeting and dangerous and/or public. I like to imagine they're mutually attracted to one another, and they try to make it work for a while, but they end up taking one too many risks and someone (probably Barney) calls it off after a close call. Maybe they rekindle things post-canon, or maybe they don't. It's a choose your own adventure where the adventure is delicious angst. And on that note...

Valhoun can exist between HL1 and HL2 canon. Honestly, a big part of the appeal of valhoun to me as a writer is that it gives me an excuse to explore what all our favorite characters were up to while Gordon was in stasis. What was the Resistance working on in the years leading up to Gordon's return? How did Barney seemingly become Dr. Kleiner's personal bodyguard? How's he holding up mentally in such a miserable situation, and what does his job actually entail? What was it like for Alyx to come of age as one of the youngest people alive, surrounded by middle-aged scientists? How did those experiences shape her into the person we meet in HL2? Sure, we don't necessarily need a shipping angle to explore these things, but interpersonal relationships are a big part of the human experience, so a little sprinkle of valhoun adds some extra flavor.

Alyx and Barney are both hot. That's not the whole appeal, or even the main appeal, but it's worth mentioning. I am a filthy bisexual and I want to make the hot dolls kiss. So sue me.

I'm not arguing that valhoun is the "best" HL ship or even my favorite ship, but it's got plenty of room for humor, angst, and character development and hot people kissing. I hope this post helps other folks see my/our vision and get on board. A little variety is good for any fandom ecosystem. :)

[kuroposting]

What’s your read on Sebastian and ciels relationship? Opinions on the common ideas around sebaciel? I love your analysis and takes on here.

I had written a really long answer to this that I think was wayy off topic and probably should be it’s own post instead, because I was musing on all the ways/reasons I don’t think of their relationship that way, despite thinking they care for each other and that they have a very bizarre dynamic.

But here’s what you were probably looking for: I can’t say I ship sebaciel, because I’m only interested in canon and I don’t think that’ll be canon. I get frustrated with pretty much everybody on both sides of that “discourse” because the people who are vehemently against it seem just as fetishistic as the horndog variety of shippers, where they like really indulge in how much of a victimized woobie Ciel is and perceive Sebastian as vile and depraved to such an absurd degree (imo) in the face of how goofy/oblivious a character he can actually be. People who don’t like the ship will seemingly try to sanitize the dynamic by saying Sebastian is (basically) a sociopathic manipulator who is tormenting Ciel just to flavor his soul because he’s only after his meal— as if that doesn’t sound horny and pedophilic as all get-out. Shippers often have the same perception but they like the tragedy of it on top of the inherently erotic themes. Personally, I would really enjoy all of these people getting owned by the story revealing that Sebastian was never going to eat him to begin with. I just think it would be funny in-universe, too, for Sebastian to get every accusation levied towards him and he has to admit to some ulterior motive he had the whole time, as if there could be anything more sinister? But there isn’t, and it just turns out that he’s more pathetic and sentimental than we ever imagined. When I’m reading it I feel like that kid from the emperor’s new clothes.

if you wanted something more specific than that, because it seems like by “common ideas” that you had something in mind, lmk. I’m curiouss

I think I see them as best friends who can’t admit it, for a variety of legitimate and petty reasons. I think they’re like Mom (seb) and Dad (ciel) of the house and the servants are all their adopted children. I think Sebastian tried to baby trap him into raising (cultivating) a family to replace his old one, to better establish himself into Ciel’s life when he couldn’t give him his last name. That’s probably what he wants. I think Sebastian’s being set up to be accused of doing all the things that Undertaker’s facilities are doing, but he’s actually more like Snake was in his record…

I think Ciel can’t even entertain the idea that Sebastian might have affection for him, because he’s gotten even more gaslit than the fandom. As soon as he considers it, he’s been had. If he has affections for Sebastian then he would be betraying himself and his brother, as their relationship came at the cost of r!ciel’s life. Sebastian knows this, it’s irreconcilable, so I think as soon as he became aware that he might care about Ciel, he justifies it to himself by agreeing that Ciel should not trust him, and keeps Ciel at arm’s length for his own good. He still finds ways to feel close to him, though. All things considered, we actually have wayy more to go on regarding Sebastian’s feelings about Ciel and their relationship than we do on Ciel’s end. I think Ciel does not really feel as if he knows Sebastian. He knows he’s not human, and that seems to be enough for him to be far more comfortable with him than he would be otherwise. And it might put them on more equal footing, because Ciel is aware of Sebastian’s deficiencies that no other people have a clue about

Translation- @butlerology

[emblemxeno]

Honestly, the thing that pisses me off the most about Fates's story discourse over 3H story discourse is people stretch themselves to find depth in 3H that doesn't exist, while dismissing Fates outright and assuming it has no depth. All entirely rooted out of the fact Fates is a good story with a bad first impression, while 3H is a bad story with a good first impression, and to most viewers, that's all that matters as opposed to the actual critical analysis of the work itself.

Like, look, I get it. A fun fact: Fates's story in the West was actually better received than IF was in Japan, as while Fates ultimately had a few proud troopers (usually at college-level analysis) who understood what was actually being said, IF apparently botched the script given by Kibayashi badly enough (including much of subtext in Japanese making very little sense on top of poor diction, in the language all about poor diction and subtext) that Treehouse had to clean-up and fix as much as they could while working with the flaws, which is why they were super heavy on people reading into the subtext to get Kibayashi's vision. I get why people make that mistake and assume because the impression is bad it's all bad, we've seen that with so many works of fiction in the past!

But what gets me is when somebody dismisses perfectly good content with tons of depth, meaning and value solely based on first impressions, while giving a pass to anything with a good first impression even when the logic and rhetoric does not follow through. And like, I get why people do this. First impressions matter a lot and is defaulted in being a survival strategy, where you often can't verify what somebody is like except by the immediate first glance of judgement; what separates us between "us" versus "them". And I get why people do this with IRL people, it's why I work so hard to give a good first impression… but fucking honestly, a lot of these stories are fiction, with the information searchable online. You can read about fundamentally crucial plot points and the truth behind the work just from looking up the information online! Video games aren't reality, and thus don't need to actually require the first impression rule… but for most people, it does anyways, and causes people to dismiss perfectly valid or solid content solely not based on the quality it has, but based on bad first impressions in works either unintentionally (FE Fates, Ayane Matsunaga in Persona 4, etc.), or maliciously misrepresented due to author bias (SMT Law, Leon Kuwata in DR1, etc.). What causes me to get so annoyed is when people dismiss what the author has to say or go full on "death of the author" like the author or narrative's input or opinion doesn't matter. It does. You cannot divorce context from the author's ideas and thesis and make it what you want, you've created a fanfiction then! And then you have so many FE fans just assume Fates has no depth whatsoever and that people have to justify to like it, even when it very clearly does in its main text that people reject because it's not a good first impression… it's a vicious cycle rooted in initial fans' disappointment of it not being Edgelord/Villain FE4 like they hoped and instead being... very empathetic and not afraid to have a protagonist (especially male one) have emotions and not afraid to share weakness or cry. And what infuriates me is that when you present evidence that proves the first impression wrong… many people double down and don't actually correct themselves based on the information! That's what infuriates me, as it's a failure to be a good person or care about doing the right thing!

It annoys me as much as it does as somebody who's worked with Autistic kids and is Autistic, and I know the pain of feeling like your insights are rejected based on first impressions than the actual truth of the matter. People need to accept that whatever interpretations of canon they have on a story is irrelevant versus the express purpose of the text, as stated by the devs, because without having the truth, how can one hope to be a good person? "Follow your own justice" with your eyes blind and ears deaf to the consequences of your actions? No, that's when people get hurt, and I get especially vocal because Fates – especially Conquest – has a downright brilliant story that's layered underneath a ton of bad first impressions, and while I get the rule of making judgements based on presentation, that's still not a reason to dismiss the context or spread blatant misinformation or misrepresentation on what is actually happening in the story. If you cannot expressly or accurately talk about the context of what happens in the story divorced from your own headcanons and actually sourced arguments from the text and author's Word of God, you're not qualified to actually talk about it. End of story.

Like, I don't know about what others think, but if I'm giving a bad first impression and say a bunch of things, and then are presented with evidence said bad first impression is wrong… I immediately apologize to the person or thing I've offended, delete anything that I've said that was incorrect about it and firmly stand by them over said first impressions. It's not hard, and it doesn't make you lesser for admitting you were operating on faulty information. What does make you lesser is when you reject that evidence or truth to double down and not actually focus on doing the right thing by correcting your information! I genuinely don't understand it, because it's like somebody being tried at court, evidence comes up that clears their name, and the jury rejects it because, oh I dunno, they're something like a non-offending person with pedophilic disorder (just an example of how a stigmatized group can bias people by conviction via public opinion, and that is ALL I'll say about that land mine), or a communist in the 1950s/anarchist in the 1920s. It doesn't make any sense!

Obviously, bad first impressions shouldn't be dismissed entirely, especially when it turns out to be true... and most of the time, they do! If something stinks of awfulness, chances are it is awful. But the thing that really aggravates me is how much people don't realize they're misrepresenting something that isn't even bad, just poorly understood and continuously misrepresented. There are works that give a bad impression that are bad and works that give a good impression that are good. But I always found it frustrating how people chose the one with good impressions but bad intent or logic over the one one bad impressions but good intent or logic, even when that's not remotely the truth nor is it accurate to the context or subtext. And personally, I'd happily sooner look past something with a bad impression that is actually good, versus something with a good impression that is actually bad. This is what frustrates me about how 3H is given a pass while Fates gets shit when if you actually analyze the text from a college-level reading ability, you begin to see it's the reverse; Fates is downright genius if you actually interlayer the context and subtext, while 3H just flat-out falls apart.

I will say, though, it certainly didn't do favors for my faith in people's ability to read and appreciate canon text. I already have tons of faith in humanity; stuff like the above makes me honestly lack faith in people's ability to be rational or intelligent about context. All I will say is if people like Odovakar's abysmal Fates analysis (asking anonymously so look it up) were given to a college-level course, he'd fail straight out of that exam.

I wish I can go more in-depth like this post deserves, because you make a lot of good points. It's just a lot all at once haha.

What I will say is that while I slightly disagree with the idea that audience reaction has no relevance, this discussion does remind me of what I'm studying in uni right now, things like structuralism vs post structuralism.

What we deal with when it comes to the FE fandom is heavy, heavy doses of post-structuralist (acknowledgement of multiple valid interpretations) analysis that is spun as structuralist (one true meaning that is stable and predictable).

Ultimately, where the best literary and analytical thought comes from is the recognition of both author circumstances and the resulting text product having an impact on an individual's perception of the product.

I dislike 3H's story based on this "equation"; a significant amount of lore that serves little to the plot, characters' entire beings are undercut by the whims of the player insert, and no deep or thought provoking theme beyond whatever each route wants to serve to you leading to the game lacking a strong core (this is within the product) + the devs and writers literally admitting that their product 'gained a life on its own', that there was no one person who knew everything in the plot, and no one in the room telling them to fucking stop (author circumstances) = my perception of the story being that it's a dreadful mess that doesn't know what it wants to be beyond a lore simulator with cute characters who you teach and have tea with.

That's my personalized reaction backed up by subjective analytical thought, as well as sourced facts/circumstances and standard literary criticism. Now I can't expect every single person to go through those steps, but as you said, it's as if the first impression and surface level shit supersedes all of the muck that is under 3H's story, whereas with Fates, the first impression is so irrevocably bad to most people that almost fucking nobody is willing to even entertain that it may have a good story without first coating their sentiments with irony, sarcasm, or timid apologies in advance.

It's so utterly transparent, and so utterly unpopular to point out, because that's the type of gunked up social contract that the community has created and perpetuated. Breaking that resigns someone to mockery, shame, or plain confusion.

But like you, I care immensely about things past first impressions and how things are presented. Why else would I talk about these games years past they've released.

Anyway, thanks for the ask. I never heard of the Japanese reaction to IF being worse than the Western reaction to Fates. I will admit, it's hard to swallow, but I recognize that it's because of the culture I'm inundated with and involved in, so my bias in is full force. Really, all I know was the shit that was completely changed, added, or removed from the JP script to the localized one, but were I to look into it more, I bet I'd see what you're talking about regarding the text in its native language.

[whoishotteranimepolls]

Ok I know there's already anlther DYB ask for Akainu and no one ever votes for it but I have to send my own anyways because the fact that anyone finds this man attractive is baffling to me

So first of all, look, I get why people find villains and stuff hot even despite committing horrible atrocities and I'm not gonna be like "oh but he killed ace!" or whatever even though that was a complete dick move (like insulting the whitebeard pirates was so uncalled for dude chill) but also he Did commit genocide. Like there is a reason the O'Hara incident had only one survivor. Like it wasn't only him but he did order the destruction of that ship

But ignoring that, because, again, I understand characters can be hot in spite of or because of the atrocities they committed, he's just... not attractive? Like I'd get finding him hot despite the stuff he did if he had an entertaining personality or was physically attractive but he really Does not.

Like his personality is basically just Absolute Justice personified which just kinda makes him a dick and not in a particularly fun or entertaining way

And appearance wise? He just has nothing going for him. Like he's better post timeskip with the scar, the facial hair, and the cigar, and I like his hawaiian shirt, but he's still not hot aside from the literal sense. Like, I guess he's an old/older big buff dude but like. One Piece has characters thar fit that description that are actually attractive? Or at the very least more attractive than fucking Fleet Admiral Sakazuki

So he's just very "go girl give us nothing!" a complete asshole with 0 appealing qualities. The only good thing about him is he mentored the best marine in the series but that guy isn't even canon and it doesn't really make Sakazuki any more attractive. And straight up, barring Ryokugyu, all the other admirals, both pre and post-ts, are genuinely hotter than Akainu

Also I don't find this relevant but people seem to bring it up sometimes in DYB so I guess I'll do so too? That man would NOT be good in bed let's not kid ourselves. And that's if you could even get him there since he's way too busy doing paperwork and when he's not doing that he's probably killing pirates

Like idk I think Sakazuki fans just need to take the L here

Defend Your Blurbo #59

Please remember this post is about curiosity and genuine fandom discourse. Be kind with your answers because this is not a debate essay, this is a discussion between fans

Meet Sakazuki, aka Fleet Admiral Akainu from One Piece. He ate the Magu Magu no Mi, a Logia-type Devil Fruit that allows the user to create, control, and transform into magma at will, turning the user into a Magma Human.

This will probably be our most controversial dyb to date. He is perhaps one of the most despised characters in one piece due to his unforgivable sin of killing a beloved character. So this one's going to be interesting, but I do know he has fans who are thirsty for him, including me. So, One Piece fandom defend your blorbo.

[ninja-confession-go]

Okay honestly I didn't think any of this really needed to be said because it should be pretty clear, but for those who keep getting swayed by age discourse let me break it down once and for all:

At some point you guys have to just decide whether an "age gap" in Ninjago really matters to you enough to let it affect your morals in shipping because it's really not as straightforward as it is in real life. Either you'll go by the age based on how long the character has actually been alive (which seems to be what most people who cry "age gap!" fall back on), or by their actual physical bodies and/or mental ages. In real life those things are always one and the same (ignoring for the sake of argument cases where people who are adults still act like children or have development issues - point is their bodies always match how long they've actually been alive), but in Ninjago (and lots of other media) there are many different cases where those things don't align. So this tendency of the fandom to warn others away from shipping something because of an "age gap" that wouldn't be possible in the real world is completely pointless. Personally, I like to go by how much the physical body and maturity of the brain of a character actually is for their age.

Yes, Zane has existed for 40+ years, but would you call him a middle aged man in the traditional sense? His body and brain were clearly designed to be that of a teenager/young adult.

Likewise Pixal might have only been alive for like a year or two when she was first introduced, but obviously she was given the body of someone much older, and developed the mental maturity to match it after she gained sentience.

Lloyd has been alive for several years less than the other ninja, but his body is that of a fully developed adult now and we've got confirmation that mentally he matured to match his physical age as well; he is NOT a child anymore. (Note: This is not me advocating greenflame at all, it is still icky to me because Kai and the other ninja knew and raised him when he was an actual child and Kai clearly sees him as a friend/little brother).

I've seen some headcanon that Lloyd kinda paused aging physically a bit so his mental age could catch up with him; Harumi would have had time to 'catch up' up as well. Even without this headcanon though, Harumi is shown to be at about the same stage of physical development as Lloyd, wonky timeline aside.

Akita might have been implied to be many decades old but she is not portrayed as an old woman, she very clearly is physically and mentally close to Lloyd's age.

I'm not saying that everyone HAS to go by this rule of course, it's just how I personally decide what I'm okay with, but if you personally want to stick with the characters' literal ages (i.e how long they've been alive, which even then is shaky ground to stand on because Lego will never give canon ages for any of the characters) please do so without dictating that every other person should go along with it.

One final note from me: I feel like people don't actually want to think about WHY age gaps are considered taboo in society and just want to take it as a hard and fast rule that any length of age difference between a couple of any ages is bad, without taking into account any nuance. Like, obviously a three to five year age gap between teenagers is uncomfortable because they're at different levels of maturity, understanding and power, but if the characters are two fully developed adults that kind of difference is negligible. There's also the matter of the age of consent being different from country to country and culture to culture but that's getting a bit far off the point. The important thing to remember is that age in Ninjago is literally arbitrary. It's not a reliable barometer to base your moralizing on.

.

[b0ylik3r]

I dont wanna get myself involved in any more ZADR discourse, but I also don't want misinfo to spread around and people to get discouraged or anything like I had been for a while. So I'm going to say this: Zim in Invader Zim is most likely a child.

There are a plethora of reasons I think this, but if you don't care then scroll. I'm going to provide my reasoning under the cut.

My first reason is that from a writing standpoint, there is absolutely nothing appealing about the dynamic between Dib and Zim if Zim is an adult. What would or do you find enjoyment out of their dynamic if they are not meant to be foils of one another like the show HEAVILY implies them to be NUMEROUS TIMES? If Zim is a child, their dynamic becomes "2 children want parental approval and go against each other for it, when in reality the approval and love they seek is unattainable because the parental figures will never give them it. They would be better off being friends or allies, but instead keep fighting to be loved because they're dumb kids and don't realize that it's fruitless and dumb". If Zim is an adult, their dynamic becomes "Immature man cannot beat child". What is to be enjoyed or explored there?

My second reason is that Zim acts like a child in a multitude of different ways. His interactions with The Tallest, his general immaturity, and even how he surrounds himself. He goes to school. He has made himself robot parents to support that idea. He needs different disguises to act like an adult. Again, from a writing standpoint, if he was an adult infiltrating a school building and pretending to be a kid, that's just fucking weird. I don't think Jhonen is that type of person. I don't think the writers are that type of people.

Also on this subject is the episode Tak: The Hideous New Girl. At the point of the episode, Zim was trying to impress and "crush on" and be the boyfriend of this middle school girl. It doesn't matter if Tak was actually irken. It doesn't matter if she is the same age as him actually. It doesn't change that Zim was trying to get into a human relationship with what he thought was a middle school girl. If he is an adult, that's pretty fucking weird. Again, I don't think Jhonen is that type of person and I don't think the writers are that type of people.

The "flying ships before you were born" only proves that on Irk, he was an adult or at least the age that would permit him to fly ships. Calendars are manmade, why would irkens use the same years? Zim's age could also easily translate into human years into the late tween years. We also have to think logically about things.

Also, I sometimes feel like people are forgetting that Irk is a dystopian society. They are a hyper-militarized alien race that codes people's brains on the daily and does not wait for the children to grow up even a little before they start military training (or, at least training for military training). What morals prevent them from using child labor or child soldiers? We also have to remember that in accordance to The Trial, Zim was a smeet or older allowed into violent chemicals and resources that can kill, like it did Tallest Miyuki and Tallest Spork. That, in a way, proves that Irkens are not above dangerous child labor.

One other argument I have is that in Enter The Florpus, during the species change clip, Zim, Dib and Gaz switch species. The thing is, Dib and Gaz look the same as Zim in this clip. They don't become little smeets, they don't become tiny kids. They become Zim's age. Zim also does not become an old man in this clip. He stays the same as Dib and Gaz. Being that these are their canon human/irken translations, I don't see how someone could still defend this.

You could take all of this and say "Okay, but ZADR is still proship because they are abusive to each other so why are you so pressed". But like I said in a previous post, there is a major difference between "haha 2 people fight each other n get hurt haha" and "this adult man is grooming this child sexually". That's not funny. That isn't cartoony. That is a fully serious topic taken seriously in every single media that it is represented in. Cartoony unserious fighting has been a staple for years in animation and media. Grooming is not cartoony. That is why so many people have a problem with it. Some people don't enjoy shipping things that are seriously fucked up in the real world like that, or shipping proships.

This all started because of one singular tweet Jhonen made that you all believed. I bet if he tweeted "guys invader zim didnt actually happen and dib was hallucinating the whole time, lmao dream theory is canon", some of you would believe it.

I leave you off with this: "If it looks, sounds & acts like a kid, it's a kid, no matter if it's actually 1000 years old or not."