#and toriel... i see that she's trying but she's also not?

[fluo-skeletons]

Toriel and alcohol

Let me say this first: this is not a hate post, & I do not think that having a thing with a substance makes someone a bad person and I suspect that some of the fandom is so resistant to the idea of Toriel having an alcohol problem because it's often seen as a 'bad person trait' and Toriel isn't a bad person, therefore she couldn't possibly have a problem. Yikes!

Anyway. She is consistently shown going overboard with drinking while the others around her (if any present) generally stay sober.

I will put a cut here cuz there's gonna be a long list of images

From the winter alarm clock dialogue:

this one might be a stretch, but it's possible that she drank alone in the Ruins too, because Flowey specifically mentions this after she falls asleep drunk at the party:

(man. this part always kills me. Flowey seeing his mom like this. ugh. How his and Chara's death affected her like this. He can't just go and say "hey mom I'm alive". But he leaves a glass of water with her. maaan..... )

from the 1 year anniversary QnA:

^this is pretty much the only time she's featured and there's a drinking mention

And, of course, the jitterbug scene from deltarune chapter 4:

she's very clearly intoxicated, while her new friend seems mostly sober (or at least I didn't notice any indication that he was in a different state)

also note Kris's reaction: while Susie seems shocked, Kris simply turns away in embarrassment/shame. (yes susie is also looking away here but i think she's rather looking at Kris)

Kris steps out of the way in time when their mom falls

Like. She's well meaning but ABSOLUTELY unaware of how her behaviour affects others. See also: the part about the winter party where she is playing with Alphys's arms

I don't think Kris is in the mood for pancakes after seeing their mom shitfaced, they probably just want to get away from the situation. And judging by their reaction, this is not the first time they see Toriel like this- this is a Thing she Does. Whether it be a frequent thing or only at celebrations and therefore rare, every time she's been mentioned having alcohol, she's also mentioned as having had too much, in strong contarst with the others also present.

I don't really have a takeaway from this, other than this being more of her dealing with her problems through some form of avoidance. And, again, I'm not calling her a bad person. But she's not doing as well as she is trying to present.

[calmenergy]

how do you think would a kralsei "kris introduces ralsei to toriel" interaction go?

honestly i could see toriel thinking hes the sweetest thing and (assuming theyre dating by this point) a little teasing about their relationship. ralsei i think would genuinely get along really well with toriel, and the idea of toriel teaching ralsei how to cook normally (IE without the cauldron magic) is something that's super cute and I would love to see (smth smth ralsei learning how to make kris pie bc its their favorite food). i think kris would probably dread it a bit, not bc of nerves, but bc of some of the teasing toriel would do and probably also some terrible puns she would make. toriel just gives me the vibes shed be very supportive of kris and ralsei tbh, could even see her trying to set up a romantic moment for them together somehow (like leaving at a convenient time for something cute to happen, like "needing to use the bathroom" while teaching ralsei something hands on and asking kris to take over) but she would go about it in the most obvious, cringe inducing way that it would make kris wanna die lmao

[pen--pun]

already asked you on TikTok but I wanted to ask here both to cover my bases and cause I wanted to add onto the question: In the OG world, Susie is targeted just as much as Kris due to being Lightners. How does Susie feel suddenly being in a situation where Kris is the only one whose life is continuously in danger? Especially since the stakes are a bit higher as everyone around is constantly like ‘Oh humans? I want to murder them graphically then take their soul to cross the barrier!’

A lot of Darkner's have tried to kill them in the past, so the murder thing isn't really new territory for them. The stakes are only higher here because Kris and Susie are weaker in the Light World. However, the way a lot of the Undertale monsters love graphically explaining their hatred and bloodlust for murdering humans is... new. And pretty concerning.

It actually takes them a while to figure out why monsters are attacking them in the first place. Toriel briefly mentions the human thing when she first meets them, but she keeps dodging questions and not giving them straight answers. Susie is the one asking most of the questions, so Toriel just assumes Susie is just joking around whenever she asks something a 15 year old monster should already know. She also doesn't take her seriously when Susie says she's from the surface.

Once Toriel leaves them to explore the Ruins on their own, the two have to resort to asking some of the NPC's in the Ruins (which I will be expanding on and adding a few new areas to) There might even be custom battle dialogue where some of the monsters are confused as to why Susie is there? Idk, I'm still in the early drafts of the Ruins scripts.

By the time they enter Snowdin, their main priority is still to keep Kris alive. However, they're also trying really, REALLY hard to make sure Susie doesn't get injured too badly, or else she might end up bleeding. Again, I'm using the "Monsters don't bleed" and "Susie is half-human" theories, so if anyone sees Susie bleeding, then it's just gonna be... an absolute shitshow. That is the last thing they need right now.

Waterfall's glyphs and Undyne's speeches are all about human Souls and King Asgore using them to become a god, which REALLY freaks them out because NO ONE knows how a Hybrid's Soul works. Not even them.

The Deltarune Universe seems to have very little research on how monster Souls work, and even though there's way more Soul research documented in the Undertale universe, there are no hybrids. At all. Susie doesn't really want to be a mad scientist's test subject, so they're trying to be EXTRA careful from that point on.

Unfortunately, they kinda... fail at that, but that's spoiler territory.

There isn't going to be any blood-related mechanics in the game's actual fights. There will be scenes where Susie bleeds, but those will be scripted cutscenes that might not even happen depending on which route you play. I don't want too spoil much on that either, but blood will be an important plot point (Toby Fox, please don't fuck me over with Chapter 5)

(This ask has been in my inbox for like... a month. I'm so sorry I completely forgot. Also, sorry if it doesn't answer your questions, i didn’t really know how to answer without too many spoilers)

[mymarifae]

guys twitter dot com doesn't like when you criticize toriel's parenting decisions. don't do it

[transexuality]

twitter users will have the worst possible take on deltarune's characters and it'll have an uptick of 30k+ likes like look at this

genuinely what are we even saying anymore

[charafansmile]

I know I did not just see someone saying kris isint getting proper nutrition because toriel 'only' bakes. Meat pies are a thing???? Toriel 'worried about her child' dreemurr is definitely making them eat their vegetables. Everyday people invent new reasons to call her a bad mother instead of actually examining her textual flaws.

[kingofdinosaurs]

my sans take right now is that like yeah obviously he didn't do anything wrong by dating a divorced woman that's fine. he's just kind of being an inconsiderate asshole to her kid which makes him fair game to explode with a rocket launcher. and also it's fun in a sort of vindictive way to finally see the fanbase set against him. he's had it too good for too long.

[the-irreverend]

This moment here demonstrates what I think is one of Carol's most interesting and underrated qualities: that she has a very reactionary mindset in that she always tries to force things back to a certain status quo instead of accepting change or things as they are.

I don't believe she's helping out Asgore financially just for some menial housework. I think the fact that she's also encouraging him to try to get back with Toriel demonstrates that she's trying to bring back her relationship with the Dreemurrs despite all the evidence that it's just not possible anymore.

AND WE ALSO SEE THIS WITH DESS'S ROOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The fact that she preserves it perfectly as it was before her disappearance further shows that she's not the kind of person who likes to move on, as if she believes that doing anything to Dess's room (i.e. emptying it out of her possessions as one would do after the loss of a loved one) would signify to her there's no hope she's coming back (or that she knows she isn't gone if she had a hand in making her the Knight).

In a way, she is basically a living embodiment of the Snowgrave Run, in that she always forces things to be a certain way, and in doing so, makes the lives of the people they affect that much worse (in addition to being figuratively and literally cold AF).

[hmsthunderchild]

DELTARUNE: REDROOT.

An alternative take on the Weird/Snowgrave route, where Noelle's spell is stronger than she thought.

NOTE: Although this is an AU and non-canon, there are spoilers for the normal and weird route incorporated. Also, sorry this is so long!

STORY AND ADDITIONAL IMAGES BELOW:

The weird route starts the same and remains so up until the Berdly fight. When Noelle finally casts Snowgrave, it overwhelms her and casts everything around in ice. Unlike the canon weird route, Kris is frozen in the chaos. Their soul is ejected.

Now Noelle faces the Player, the one who's really been calling the shots. She's petrified after what she's done, professing she'd do anything to fix it - to make things right. Without a host, and the Player being as cruelly curious as they are, they take her up on this offer. In her daze, she wouldn't realise that the Player is a dangerous force before it's too late.

Being a monster, she's able to absorb the Human soul to some extent (assuming the soul functions the same in Deltarune as it does in Undertale). Her original soul and most of her bodily agency remains, but The Player is highly compelling and tormenting (not to mention the Thorn Ring still has her in a trance).

Unfortunately, in her escape from Cyber City, she bumps into the worst guy you'd want to see your mental breakdown. Spamton. He'd catch on to what happened to Kris (seeing as he knows what the Player made Noelle do in the canon route). With Noelle all alone, he leverages the opportunity. He can be bigger than big. With her new strength and the Player's help, he can share his influence to as many dark worlds as she can open.

Basically, Noelle's life sucks. She takes the Dealmaker with her, and has to battle the constant commands inside her head.

Since the soul can seal the fountain without Kris, the Player guides Noelle through Cyber City, with additional help from Spamton in finding a covert route underground to the fountain. You would miss all of the fun, lighthearted story and misadventures from the normal route. Noelle goes along with this, being told that both Berdly and Kris will wake up from the nightmare.

So, uh, how are the other two doing? Not great! Ralsei wouldn't know the full extent of what happened, but he would sense a powerful shift in the future. He knows that, whatever's occurred, he won't be needed anymore. He'd try to keep composure for Susie's sake and remains hopeful he can bring it back on track somehow.

Susie would notice Kris has been missing a while, but would have Ralsei ease her worries. Once the fountain suddenly closes without her knowledge and she's ejected out of the dark world, she'd be confused but there'd be a sense of relief. Y'know, since she assumes only Kris can seal the fountains. She wouldn't notice for a moment that Kris isn't waking up since they're prone to long naps in class.

Of course, Noelle shuffles right out with the Dealmaker in her pocket, unable to bear facing Susie with the realisation their nightmare isn't over.

Susie would stay behind and try shaking both of them up. Yet, she can feel how cold they are. She'd lug both to the hospital herself where she'd stay the night. Susie wouldn't suspect anything of Noelle yet since her mind's preoccupied with concern. Both Toriel and Asgore would be notified, both of whom are heartbroken and confused. Asriel would be heading home sooner.

Once everyone else is gone, Susie would open a dark world in the hospital, to try and fix things the only way she knows how. All they need is a little healing, right? Ralsei will know what to do.

TO BE CONTINUED .... WHEN I THINK OF THE REST!

Alas, this DOES mean Mr. Ant Tenna doesn't appear in this AU since Kris can't open the fountain. I know. I'm sorry too. Maybe I'll find a way. Also, I am not an expert on all the Deltarune mechanics, lore and tidbits so forgive me if I got any info wrong!

Anyways, if you've made it this far, thank you so much for reading! Let me know your thoughts and I'm hopeful to make more content soon!

[birdsareblooming]

bc of the alcohol scene people are FINALLY clocking that Toriel is also kinda shitty. for people who didn't pick up on it this is not new to Deltarune:

Toriel is incredibly stubborn especially about her beliefs and therefore she states very blatently that she is good and Asgore is bad and evil and horrible, meanwhile Asgore himself is a pushover and takes it like a pussy. Because she states it with such confidence people just kinda.. believed her.

Toriel's the one who left and decided to stew instead of actually solving any problems. it took six kids for Toriel to actually try to hold one back. When she comes back like. yeah a lot of this is Asgore's fault but what she says to him then could've been said six dead kids ago instead of basically ghosting him. Even after all of her worry she still doesn't come with you because despite herself and what she thinks, she's just as much of a coward delaying the inevitable as Asgore is.

These themes really continue in Deltarune. While Asgore is definitely too pushy, Toriel refuses to talk to him in any way at all, throwing away his flowers and trash talking him behind his back while also not talking to him at all. Similarly to Undertale she'd much rather avoid and trash talk him than make moves to fix anything.

Even though Toriel kinda does, it's not an argument of who was worse in the situation of either Undertale or Deltarune, if you start counting "sin points" to decide who was worse than you're loosing your media literacy. As far as I can tell at least in Undertale Toriel is just as at fault as Asgore is, even IF she tried and failed years ago and gave up, shutting herself off from the world and pretending it doesn't exist is no solution, and it's almost the same solution Asgore took, even right before he kills you.

We don't know the situation in Delatrune other than Asgore seems to have something he's involved with that Toriel doesn't want to talk about that Carol is "financing", very well could be an addiction of his own.

But I think the blatant alcoholism (that's in Undertale btw, in the alarm clock event she also got plastered) that people who know what alcoholism looks like noticed how Kris (and Susie) act in that scene has made it more apparent than ever that Toriel is an incredibly flawed character and one of her flaws is not being able to see that, something that Asgore does the opposite of where he's always wallowing in self-pity.

Toriel is really good at general mom-isms like making breakfast, taking the kids out, supporting interests, giving hugs, etc. However when actually worrying about Kris' safety and wellbeing she ends up falling short, as people have pointed out when we come home in chapter 4 she doesn't ask why either of them were out so late. Even a controlled state Kris has enough embarrassment and shame about the scene that they hide their face, meaning Kris has shown obvious signs of disapproval before that Toriel has not seen or ignored.

I think that's why her and Sans mesh so well together in an actually horrible way. Sans also likes to pretend stuff doesn't exist and brush stuff off with a joke instead of doing anything until literally the last minute. With how he acts in the scene he may not know, but weather he knows or not he is absolutely enabling her, which weather Toriel knows it or not is why she likes him and keeps him around. Finally a succinct way of saying why I believe their relationship, whatever you believe it is, is a toxic one.

TLDR: the only parent doing a good job here is Rudy unless we learn info later that changes that

[ceceilum]

Toriel slander trending again? Color me shocked

I’m not even a little surprised to see Toriel (a maternal figure) suddenly getting backlash across multiple platforms.

The Dreemurr family dynamic in UT is already emotionally dense the more you sit with it, but Toriel, while often beloved is still often flattened in fandom into a one-dimensional “overprotective mom” trope. At first glance? Sure. But there’s so much more going on there.

One thing I think fandom consistently overlooks is that Toriel Dreemurr is severely depressed. And that’s something she actually shares with Sans (beyond their shared love of puns)

We know from UT that Toriel didn’t abandon her people right after the death of her children. She stayed. She left only when Asgore declared war. That’s what broke her. Even Flowey tells us that Toriel retrieved Chara’s body and gave them a proper burial before isolating herself in the Ruins. There, she ends up caring for not one, but six more human children. And ends up carrying six more deaths.

And yet when we, as Frisk, fall into the Ruins, Toriel is still kind. Still warm. Still trying. She tries to keep her distance, but ultimately she cares too much. She begs us to stay. She fights us, but if we spare her, she lets us go. Like?? That’s already a deeply complex character.

We also know from Gerson that she was once a serious ruler. And then you have the nose nuzzling championship trophy at Asgore’s house. She’s loving. She’s strict. She’s grieving. She’s lost almost everything, but she never stops trying to love.

But it’s in DR where we finally get to see Toriel outside the grief.

She has college memories. A social history. She’s described by Rudy as “fuzzy n’ sweet on the outside, a TOTAL NUT on the inside.” She can be judgmental (whose mom isn’t, honestly?) but we also see how much she cares about Kris. She reads parenting books. She becomes the primary caregiver after her separation from Asgore. She’s doing her best while juggling divorce, a full-time job, and a household.

And yeah, she misses stuff. Like the bullying. But if you’ve ever known a single working mom IRL, this is very real.

Parents can love you deeply and still not know everything happening in your world. Especially teens like Kris, who are actively withdrawing.

And then Chapter 4 hits.

People are divided on the ending, but I think it was brilliant. We go from high stakes cosmic weirdness back to Kris’s reality.

Their mom is having fun… without them. And it HURTS.

But that’s not the full picture. That’s Kris’s perspective.

If you’re a teen of divorce, or any kid with a single parent who finally starts to move on, yeah, It sucks. It feels like a betrayal. Because you can’t yet see the complexity. You can’t understand that your mom is her own person, trying to find joy again.

Because to you, she’s just your mom. And you feel left behind.

tl;dr: Toriel is one of the most layered characters in the Undertale/Deltarune universe. She’s grieving, trying, sometimes failing, always loving. She doesn’t deserve the hate, if anything she deserves empathy.

[twilightofthesandwiches]

I mean I do see the logic in speculating, like, if Queen is obviously meant to be a parallel of Carol

And Tenna is kind of a parallel to Asgore…

Does that mean that King is also a parallel to someone from Susie’s life? What would that say about her parents? ... Something very bad, probably.

Especially since we do have some red flags about Susie’s home-life already. Like the fact she never told her parents about her sleepover at Kris’ despite Toriel specifically telling her to do so.

And just… generally acting and talking about her past in a way that makes it clear she never really had an emotional support system before Toriel and Kris. At the best case scenario, Susie's parental figures seem to be pretty negligent. So it’s not really a leap to speculate that King’s terribleness is also a reflection of their behavior.

But… it’s important to remember that… we don’t need to just speculate. There is a very important person in Susie’s life that is already clearly reflected in King’s behavior and personality. And that’s Susie herself.

Like, some of these parallels were kinda obvious from the get-go. The quotes, the hidden eyes, the embrace of violence and total disdain for friendship and pacifism… but I think the more we got to know Susie, the deeper the comparison goes.

King’s whole motivation and his anger at the Lightners is based on the fact he was, like the other Darkners of Card Castle, a toy whose Purpose was to be played with, but they all ended being abandoned and unwanted in an unused classroom. His feelings of rejection, grief and failure metamorphosing into a desire to lash out at the world and fully embrace a self-image of villainy.

And that’s… literally all of Susie’s Deal in Chapter One. She was the lonely kid that no one wanted to play with, she was in her own words…

She says this when she’s empathizing with Tenna’s situation, but both in the imagery of the broken toy and her coping mechanism (lashing out and being always on-guard rather than clinging and cloying) she’s a lot more similar to King.

It’s just a matter of both Susie herself being less open to empathy and retrospection back in Chapter 1 and King actively rejecting any attempt at a connection by being a Huge Fucking Bastard (unlike Tenna, who was very clearly trying to honestly explain his emotions). But in retrospect, the comparison is definitely there…

Like, the thing about "Quiet people piss me off" is not just the echo of the sentence, it's also a very similar context.

Susie realized that Kris saw her eating chalk and immediately assumed the worst of them. That they hate her, that everyone hates her and is just waiting for an excuse to kick her out. With Hometown School being where both Toriel and Noelle are, the only people who have ever been nice to Susie at this point in the story... Even if she's trying to play it up like she's Scary and Edgy, I think she's legitimately afraid of the possibility.

She's just projecting all of her abandonment trauma and paranoia and distrust, all of the past times she's been hurt, on Kris' silence. Quiet people piss her off... because they act as a mirror to the frustrations she's stewing in anyways.

And this is just the same with King. Due to his own trauma of being abandoned and cast aside, he assumes the worst of the Lightners, assumes the worst of Kris. That they will never care for Darkners, that they will never care for him. That they are no different than the Lightners who locked them away in the Classroom in the first place. That they are as gleeful about the idea of abandoning all of Card Castle once again as Susie thought they were about the idea of getting her expelled.

He took advantage of Ralsei's kindness because he couldn't believe the Lightners he's working with will ever care enough to give him a future, and he is projecting all of the neglect and abandonment he has experienced, the way he thinks all Lightners must feel about him, unto Kris' silence.

I think you can also draw a parallel with how King is actually uniquely rebellious for a Darkner (especially as a Not-Shadow-Boss), trying to to actively reject his Purpose for a new one, inspired by the Knight but actually created by himself.

In retrospect, having more Darkners to compare him to, that’s an act of Freedom that can’t be taken for granted. I think you can compare it to Susie’s constant assertions of her free will and her constant rebellion against the control of the Player, the Plot and the Prophecy itself.

You can maybe also say something about King’s strong ties with Jevil and the fact that Susie is the one who can equip the Devilknife and has unique interactions with the Jeviltail?

You can also kinda rope Lancer into the metaphor. As, like a representation of Susie’s inner child who just wants to goof-off and have friends. Susie watching Lancer try and defend her from King is both her seeing the value of her friendship and trust in in real time and also metaphorically her desire for fun and friendship piercing through the toxic coping mechanism she’s been trapped in until now.

Of course, that doesn’t mean King can't have any inspiration from Susie’s home life. Darkners aren’t just, like, a one-to-one representation of one specific person all the time. Sometimes there are multiple parallels with multiple people. Queen is like a goofy funhouse mirror of Carol, but she’s also a lot like Berdly

And Tenna isn’t just a mirror of Asgore, he also reflects Toriel’s own melancholy about her children growing up

(And if you wanna lean into the whole separation-anxiety-ridden child of divorce thing, probably Kris’ feelings as well. I… think Tenna might just be a whole slew of Divorce Angst from a bunch of different angles and the comparison to Asgore is just the most obvious because he’s the Multiverse’s Most Divorced Man.)

So yeah, it’s not unlikely that King’s treatment of Lancer might be also a reflection of Susie’s probably-shitty parental figure(s). It feels probable, but even if we never get any farther detail about Susie's home life... I still think it’s important to remember the clear King-Susie parallels, I feel a lot of people kinda overlook them...

[hellspawnmotel]

Last question you might for now but how do you now feel about Toriel and Asgore as characters? Asking now cause with Toriel, there’s some now some heated debate about her being a bad mother and even person, mostly stemming from that jitterbug scene which some people see as confirmation of what was implied about her and Kris relationship in the first 2 chapters and with Asgore, there’s many (including myself) that believe he might actually join us in a dw next chapter, mostly due to the line Gerso said chapter 5 being about “a garden charred by an inferno of jealousy”, which, given the current situation with Asgore and Toriel and her blossoming relationship with Sans, seems to track pretty much.

All I can say about this personally is that I hope we get more development on the dreamurr adults from now on, especially my poor boy Asgore, since I’ve always wished to get a lot more development of him ever since he was kinda pushed aside in UT in terms of that and also cause I don’t want to remain a punching bag character in DR either. What you say?

this is a really interesting topic so I’m glad to have an opportunity to talk about it. I think the main problem we’re facing here is that, as fandom tends to do, there’s this all-or-nothing approach to how we view characters, especially women. they’re either Good or they’re Bad. the good ones deserve sympathy and the bad ones deserve scorn. so people are currently trying to fit toriel into that dichotomy

to start, no I do not think toriel is a bad person lmao. I also disagree that she’s overall a bad mother- who gets to decide where that line is, anyway? what I do think is that what she did in this instance was extremely irresponsible and speaks to the biggest issue plaguing the dreemurr family: a lack of understanding and communication. kris is unable to communicate what they’re going through, and toriel is unable to understand their feelings. she clearly deeply loves her child and wants them to be happy, and tries her best to make that so. but toriel is still a person with feelings of her own, and I think how she feels about asgore has formed a barrier between her and kris.

we have to remember that toriel is still going through what seems like an EXTREMELY messy divorce. she wants to move on, and she probably could have by now, but her ex follows her around and hounds her with romantic gestures every single day. she must be stressed and exhausted. from her perspective she just wants asgore to leave her alone already and stop interrupting her life, and I’m sure that makes it difficult for her to sympathize with kris, who still loves their father. when we see somebody as a bad, hurtful person, it can become really hard to understand the feelings of those who care about them. it’s not that she doesn’t care about kris’s feelings, it’s more likely she just doesn’t recognize them in the first place.

toriel must have felt so free for the first time in ages to just be dancing and goofing around with a new (most likely much younger) man. that doesnt excuse the fact that she never told kris where she was, and didn’t bother checking up on them in turn, and instead got so drunk she forgot or stopped caring about her responsibilities and really upset kris and susie. but it does help us understand why she would do something like that. I don’t think we can fairly cast judgement on toriel’s overall character based on this incident, all we can do is cast judgement on these specific actions.

moving onto asgore- I can’t lie, I’m not happy with the guy. he’s literally harassing his ex-wife and doing it in front of their child, sometimes even using kris as an unwilling agent in his plans. but I’m sure that’s not at all how he sees it. from his perspective, if he can just convince toriel that whatever Happened wasn’t his fault, or was justified, then they’ll get back together and everything will go back to the way it was. and he thinks that to convince her he needs to get her to sit down and talk to him, and he thinks that to do that he needs to woo her and remind her of her old love for him. these are not malicious actions, but he doesn’t understand toriel and her feelings at all, and doesn’t seem to be attempting to. he doesn’t understand how uncomfortable he’s making kris either. he’s only focused on this end goal of getting back to normal. he’s not a bad person, he’s just completely oblivious.

because of that, even if when we find out what he did or didn’t do it does turn out to not be his fault at all, there’s still no way that toriel is going to forgive him and it wont change the fact that how he’s acting now is totally inappropriate. it’s in the same way that understanding toriel doesn’t change the fact that she failed kris when they needed her. but I can’t call either of them overall bad parents or bad people. flawed, sure, but all parents are. making a final and damning moral ruling on either of them based on their actions in a very rough situation seems pretty foolish to me

[lynxgriffin]

Deltarune Chapter 3 and 4 RANDOM THOUGHTS

Spoilers so it's going under the cut! This is just me gushing about the madness

Geez I have like 50 different things I want to do art for and I can't focus on any of them long enough to start, SOB

Was NOT expecting Susie to find out that Darkners are objects immediately upon starting up the chapter. I'm glad she took it as well as she did, though! Still think this may come up much much harder later.

Holy crap Tenna's designs and animations just hit like a truck LOL. It wasn't until much later that I was like "wait...this guy is not getting recruited to Castle Town, is he. There's no way those sprites will get integrated."

Disappointed we did not get a proper Susiezilla sequence, I wanted that!

All the banter of them sitting around playing Legend of Kris was adorable

Did not expect Lanino-Elnina-Rouxls Kaard DISASTER THROUPLE???

Lancer MY BOY

Geez all of the stuff where Kris was playing their solo adventure was just. SO unsettling.

"You didn't do Snowgrave in chapter 2? Well you're doing it here now lol"

"You were used up" UH OH!!!!

I managed to S-Rank both boards somehow and got to the Shadow Mantle boss but got my ass handed to me; I'll need to go back and try again later.

Totally called Toriel being in the prize capsule from the start

saxophone noise

Me at the end of the Tenna boss battle: Kris Knight is real? Well, not what I would've liked, but I'm sure it'll be--

Me five minutes later: I'M SORRY, WHOMST??????

But no for real the Knight design and demeanor is LEGIT scary, I'm so glad we got a proper really intimidating villain

But yeah absolutely got thrashed by the Knight as well SOB SOB

THAT ENDING THO??? AND THEN THE TRANSITION INTO THE NEXT CHAPTER?

Please give Susie MORE PANCAKES

Absolutely fascinated by the fact that the monster religion is also just. Like. The game legend. The implications

Cannot believe we had friggin Tom and Jerry-ass shenanigans in Noelle's house with the soul including Kris beating the crap out of us with a hockey stick

banging fists on the table SU-SELLE! SU-SELLE! SU-SELLE! SU-SELLE!

Asgore how did you get more awkward every chapter

The whole scene with Carol was just generally so, so DEEPLY UNCOMFORTABLE

Evil and intimidating deer by awesome lesbian couple indeed

Me earlier: Man Carol Holiday is going to get a pretty brutal death in Eldritchrune, I feel a little bad, it's probably going to feel unwarranted--

Me after chapter four: Hell naw this bitch gettin' what she deserves

I gotta say that I REALLY loved the music in this chapter, absolutely outstanding. I might like From Now On even more than Rude Buster

All in all in chapter four was SO cool, loved that we're taking everything seriously now, it felt like a real turning point

OKAY SO turns out THIS KINDA HAPPENED A BIT? But while my initial thought was Gerson being the Knight, I honesty like this better

IDK Gerson was just SO funny as a J.R.R. Tolkien-esque party member and I absolutely appreciated him being a mentor to Kris and especially Susie

Did NOT expect Susie making her own dark fountain before Noelle did!! But oh man all the differences in her version of the world that you can see compared to the usual one...

In any case I love Susie more and more every day if horrible things happen to her I will teleport to Toby Fox's house and push everything breakable off of his shelves

YOUR TAKING TOO LONG

Ralsei I am DEEPLY WORRIED about you my dude

He was looking so ragged this chapter and missed good chunks of Susie's dark world, too

I am extremely anxious about that critical part of the prophecy that we conveniently missed but that Susie saw, my weird kids need to be okay

Also uhhh??? Am I nuts or like? Did my half-human Susie crack theory get more evidence?? I was expecting just a solid debunking but if anything there's just more hints of it???? I'm kind of terrified???? Half-human Susie real????

Seriously I may just finally dive into the nightmare realm of making a theory video for it

HELLO NEO DARK FOUNTAIN ALREADY

HI TITAN ALREADY THAT WAS SICK AS HELL AND ALSO TERRIFYING

Seriously that Titan boss battle was crazy hard; it took me a lot of tries and it was a LONG fight every time

I have no solid thoughts on whether it's Carol Knight or Dess Knight; I'll have to ruminate on it more

It's Raining Here made real...

CANNOT BELIEVE WE ENDED THIS CHAPTER ON FRIGGIN KRIS MISERABLE IN BED WHILE SORIEL DISCO HAPPENS DOWNSTAIRS

Again: I want to draw but have no focus aaljsda

Also I got like two hours of sleep last night because my brain would not stop buzzing lol

Once again THIS GIF REMAINS MY ULTIMATE REACTION TO NEW DELTARUNE BYE:

[mushratting]

i feel like nobody gets the toriel/sans scene at the end of chapter four. im crazy.

in my opinion the point of that scene was never to try to imply that toriels a bad mom. full stop i dont think that assigning morality to that scene at All is productive. kris isnt a bad kid either for being upset. but also it isnt a scene thats just supposed to be for laughs. it is in fact a secret third thing.

its more about the whole setup with chapter 4 and kris and susie both kinda tweaking about toriel being in the church and it turns out she canceled choir practice because it was raining. and one can argue that toriel should have called kris to let them know her change of plans, but she thought kris would just be out with susie and would just come home when theyre supposed to. im pretty sure its the weekend! and one could also argue that kris should have tried to contact her and confirm she was in the church at all. but atthe end of the day, realistic depiction of miscommunication (or lack of communication at all.)

i think that toriel getting wine drunk with a stranger is kind of an L dont get me wrong. but also im gonna be so real. speaking with my certifications as a child of divorce, sometimes you come home and your moms invited some stranger either into your home or into your life. being a single parent is fucking wack, and it puts strain in a bunch of ways on the relationship between parent and child. its uncomfortable being a kid in that situation, but at the same time thats sometimes just how it goes. not saying its good! but it isnt "morally evil" or anything like that.i guess the feeling is something along the lines of 'i dont think i have the right to deny my mom a chance at happiness with someone just because im uncomfortable'. and i think in this scene it really hits that chord, at least for me. #childofdivorcerune

BUT. my thoughts do not end here. i think that the framing of that scene also says a lot. as the player, its honestly kind of a breath of fresh air to see that toriels safe, sans again, and also a bunch of awesome animation. we as the player also have a preconceived notion of sans already so he really isnt a stranger to a lot of people playing the game. like at least thats sans from the tumblr sexyman twitter poll. or at least undertale. dont get me wrong the scene is definately still uncomfortable, but it has this goofy ass situation to it that for the player diffuses a lot of tension.

basically i also think that the framing of that scene intentionally sets you up to minimize kris's feelings by setting the tone as something more comedic instead of upsetting. which i think ties into the way the narration and setup of deltarune tries to constantly pretend that kris is an empty vessel when theyre really not.

ok thus concludes my thoughts i literally couldnt sleep until i got this out of my system

[chromieclipse]

i really REALLY love your characterization of krusielle, i'm so endeared to them... i'd personally love to hear about your headcanons around kris and their parents though!!

I got another ask or two about this, and well. I DO have a lot of thoughts, even if they aren't perfectly thought out and a bit rambly...

So. Yall have convinced me.

To preface: I come from a divorced family, and one that kind of reflects the Dreemurrs as well. Not exactly of course (as none of my siblings or I are adopted, and I am the eldest) but there's parallels there that make me have specific headcanons in particular. Notably, Kris and Asriel living with Toriel, their father struggling with money but clearly caring deeply for his kids, and the fact Asriel is pretty obviously the favored child.

To start, I don't think Toriel is perfect as a mom, but I don't think she's terrible, either.

She babies Kris, she holds their hand into school, she is often their partner for group projects - and this reflects a couple things.

Kris struggles to keep up friendships with others and is often a final pick even in class.

She perceives them as the sort of "baby" of the family.

Which is all well and good - until you also focus on Kris's and Asriel's room.

The computer is on Asriel's side of the room, Asriel has all of the awards, Asriel has a LOT more personal items than Kris does, and Toriel - while knowing Kris is a bit of a trouble maker - doesn't seem to pay them or their individuality a lot of attention? She clearly loves them, she cooks for them, but there's a certain... bare minimum there, almost. Not to mention that she was unconcerned with Kris being out much later than usual (which, yeah, Kris is a teenager and with friends, yes! but they were out far past midnight, proven by the files for the songs in-game) and she didn't take a moment to call them and let them know choir wasn't meeting that day (which is just a mild slip-up, and she doesn't have a lot of context as to why that is so upsetting to Kris and Susie, but it still reflects an ongoing issue in my eyes)

This isn't to say I'm demonizing Toriel in any way, shape, or form - she's nuanced, and isn't a perfect mom. I dare say that it's hard for her and Kris to really connect on certain levels or meet eye to eye on all things, seeing as Kris was adopted into a monster family and deeply wishes they WERE a monster. I think part of it is Kris feels they may be more noticed/less hated in their town if they WERE a monster, if they were seen as "normal".

Not to mention that Toriel doesn't seem to have noticed Kris acting strangely like Noelle has; we see Noelle say as much that Kris speaks strangely, ACTS strangely, but Toriel doesn't seem to have picked up on it at all. However, something important to note is she still protects Kris AND Susie where she can, still loves Kris and cares about Susie, and wants whats best for them; it's just my personal opinion that she struggles to love her kids equally, which I think is a very realistic flaw for a parent to have.

Meanwhile, Asgore: We don't know what happened with him, but he clearly messed up in some way that caused the divorce, made him lose his job as Police Captain in town, and led to him really struggling monetarily. However, we also get dialogue showing Asgore focuses on Kris's preferences and what they do/do not like. (For example, the hugs thing)

Asgore also takes every moment around Kris to remind them they're loved, to try and do something to show that he cares about them, invites them into his dingy shop and tries to bond with them. I feel Asgore likely loved the pair more equally, was a bit more perceptive to Kris as their own person and more observant to when they needed space, or a shoulder to lean on. However, Asgore struggles with something that Toriel doesn't: I think he sees Susie as a problem kid and tends to focus a bit TOO much on Kris.

This is more centered around how he interacts with Kris and Susie during the start of Chapter 4, but we get a lot of him interacting directly with Kris as though Susie isn't even there. He asks Kris if they want some of the food, he asks KRIS if they enjoyed it, when uh. Susie is right there (though that ties into another thing entirely as well, so it could be more attached to my theory on whats going on with Asgore + Carol than anything)

But still! How Asgore doesnt pay as much attention to Susie and more on Kris feels like a bit... much, almost. Like he's trying to give Kris more attention, more focus, make them feel SEEN almost in a forceful, artificial way.

Basically their relationship with Asgore and Toriel is... strange and strained.

But then, there's Asriel.

Asriel, at every turn, in every moment we see about him, clearly fucking ADORES Kris. That's his little sibling, he gives everything for them; hell, it wouldn't surprise me if he went to college BECAUSE OF/FOR them in some way, shape, or form.

Kris is said to spend time talking to Asriel over the internet, it's shown in pictures that Asriel prioritizes Kris over himself (like a good older sibling, ie giving Kris the non-knockoff controller) but there's just so much that reinforces the idea that Asriel and Kris are incredibly close, which makes him being gone a BIG deal for Kris, and really puts more strain on how they feel around their family.

There's also the implication that Toriel and Asgore got divorced while Asriel was at college - making the idea that he perhaps had to learn it from Kris... somewhat painful. He was there for the fighting, for the arguments, but the idea he wasn't there for the divorce? When Kris was probably blaming themself, at their lowest? The idea he couldn't be there for them? That's agonizing - and really goes to show how not having Asriel around has really pained them, and really made them feel alone.

Asgore and Toriel do their best, and they both love Kris in their own ways, but what with the divorce and Asriel being away, the likelihood that they don't get enough real recognition at home, the fact that Toriel almost babies them while Asgore tries to be attentive but falls short... it's painful, but I like it that way, yknow? There's a certain messy reality to the complicated nature of all these dynamics, it just goes to show the amount of attention to detail Toby put into all of them.

Anyway, I had like. 50% of this written out this morning, and then stopped because I was worried people wouldn't want to read a long-ass text post about my thoughts on the Dreemurrs but..... here you go. Hope people dont get on my ass :'D