#bc this is REAL argument
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The Walking Dead: The Ones Who Live | What We (1.04)
I tried everything!
#the walking dead#the ones who live#twdedit#towledit#twddaily#richonneedit#richonne#richonnegifs#usersource#filmtvcentral#userstream#usertelevision#chewieblog#userbbelcher#cinematv#dailyflicks#tvfilmsource#romancegifs#otpsource#michonne grimes#rick grimes#every romance goes through its dark night of the soul#and this was theirs#denim rose graphics#can’t believe I forgot to put the quote at the bottom lol#I’ve watched probably dozens of times at this point#such a great arc and great acting with masterclass writing#bc this is REAL argument#and when Michonne claps her hands and balls her fist I flashed back to childhood#that is such a real authentic gesture of a woman and mother on the verge of snapping
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don't show him modern technology; it won't end well
bonus under the cut:
#i'm not sure if ford would really be interested in using the internet much#but i could see him wanting to look something up real quick and ending up reading something so outrageously wrong#that it pisses him off to the point that he gets into an argument about it lol#gravity falls#stan pines#stanley pines#stanford pines#digital art#my stuff#anyway i really don't like how this one turned out#but i don't feel like changing it#bc i already spent way more time on this than i actually wanted to#and i don't wanna look at it any longer
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ok someone please correct me if i'm wrong but am i weird for thinking those 'audiobooks don't count as reading' posts are ableist as fuck????
#ramble#my first thought was like: how is this even a debate what about blind people. not every book comes in braille but MOST have an audiobook#or dyslexic people#you still enjoyed the book!! you still absorbed it!!! you got EXACTLY the same thing as people who read the words!!!#how does it not count????#i guess you miss out on the 'learning new vocab' you get through seeing the words but also#i don't really do audiobooks but i do a lot of podcasts esp fiction podcasts#and i have ABSOLUTELY picked up new stuff from there that helps with my writing#someone please explain how this is even an argument of COURSE it counts????#idk in my opinion finishing a book means 'i put the words in my brain and i thought about them and i enjoyed a story'#not 'i held a stack of paper in my hands for a bit'#i'm v lucky that i do have time to sit and read. and whenever i commute anywhere it's public transport so i CAN bring a book with me#but if i didn't have the free time or had to drive for hours everywhere i would be STOKED to still get to enjoy books#it's been REALLY bothering me lmao idk why i feel so strongly#for some reason it's giving the same energy as like. being told you can't take a comic or manga from the library bc it's not a 'real' book#of course it's a real book it's a story somebody wrote down#i can see this spiralling into 'if you have a kindle you aren't reading'. you have to sniff the paper. feel the papercuts
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robert wearing sarah down until she loves him compilation
#with a subtle undercurrent of domestic horror but i simply cannot get into all of that right now#it is very fun that sarah had such stepmother energy at the beginning of their relationship#because sarah is putting it on a bit because she doesn't want to get trapped in a domestic life just because she's moved in with jack#which is a very real very valid concern but she is also a drama queen about it#like the dinner with her boss where shes putting on airs and graces and is insisting that her and jack basically aren't even together#they're so modern and casual despite the fact that she's moved in with him and does love him and is just saying this to prove something#and bc she wants to piss him off (he isn't even there to hear her)#the lengths to which early years sarah and jack will go to piss each other off over the most stupid argument of all time...#can't lie it is romantic it is good#emmerdale#anewbrainjughead
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breaking my silence...eddie making that face in 8.08 when buck was talking about "privacy of your own home" wasn't him in disbelief at the idea of buck respecting his privacy. that was him realizing buck thought he was watching porn on an ipad fully clothed mid-afternoon in his kitchen.
#which is infinitely funnier tbh#as soon as buck walked in eddie knew he was probably gonna end up having to tell him about moving to el paso#he has a meeting with a realtor in 5 minutes#no way buck is leaving before then of his own volition#so he's gearing up for a Big Reveal and an Emotional Talk and maybe even their first real argument in five years#and then he has to be like “pause. you think im doing WHAT”#bc truly who the fuck does that? but that's the only thing buck can imagine eddie hiding from him#amazing performances all around 10/10 i want to study them like bugs#buddie
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This has most definitely been said before, but we were robbed of the core four quarantining on-screen together at Buck’s place. ROBBED I say
#we could’ve had it all#henchim#bestieism and being exasperated by all the#buddie#shenanigans#canonically knowing the sleeping arrangements even tho I fully believe buddie shared Buck’s bed while henchim claimed the couch space and#someone (probs hen) thought ahead and brought an air mattress#hen and buck cooking for everyone bc chim and Eddie (at the time) couldn’t cook well#grocery shopping#but as arguments about everybody’s weird preferences#NO PRIVACY#so everybody is calling dibs on Buck’s balcony to have private conversations w their families#buddie calling Chris together and henchim side eying them but ultimately not saying anything bc it was a stressful time for all of them#carpooling to work together and fighting over the aux omgggg and fighting over the tv remote like real siblings#Bobby asking how the roomies are doing living together and everyone just eying each other with fondness or exasperation depending on the day#I know we got crumbs from buck and chim living together but it wasn’t enough I want MORE#the siblings dynamic would’ve been immaculate with the added weird romantic tension from buddie like ???#I can’t find many fics about this scenario but pls Rec any (especially if they’re tagged oddly plssss)#hen Wilson#chimney han#Eddie diaz#evan buckley#Bobby nash#Christopher diaz#quarantine#covid 19#911#9-1-1#911 abc#9-1-1 abc
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i feel like on the one side, there's often the idea that ~oooh if you like solas you just want to woobify him and ignore his flaws~, and i don't think that's the case! but i do try to think about it when writing. bc it is interesting in dai when he has his insane opinions about every race including his own, and his legendary ability to manipulate and lie by omission and compartmentalize, and the way he can be quite ethical and kind, but turn that off instantly if it conflicts with a Greater Good™️, or something strikes him as a tyrannical ideology, or just pisses him off personally.
but also. i have to say. veilguard was soooo unconvincing on making solas seem particularly threatening? it did a better job on defanging him than even my mildest takes, i feel? hfjsdhfjsk
like maybe the "worst" thing solas does in the game is making rook forget varric's death and then hallucinate him being alive. pretty bad! that overrides all of solas' previous morals about free will, and cynically uses the memory of his friend that he just killed. but makes sense bc he's pissed about being in regret jail and wants to escape as quickly as possible. fair enough! in theory, i have no objections. gaslight gatekeep regretboss, why not.
but then it falls apart SO quickly if you think about it at all. let's ignore how dumb the regret prison is as a concept bc it literally only works on solas, and the evanuris would not have regrets. he has access to rook's brain, and he wants to make them develop more regrets so that he can put them into the prison and pull himself out. ok!
to do this... solas makes fake varric be nice and give them pep talks? why?? the EASIEST way to make rook develop regrets, is if fake varric starts guilt tripping them and psychologically tormenting them? make varric blame them for the blight wiping out half of thedas (like solas regrets destroying arlathan), and then they'll be so regretful! done! he could've gotten out way sooner, if he just used the unethical mind control he was already doing more effectively?
if he couldn't control fake varric's behaviour, and it was just based on rook's own memory, then... why did he let them keep thinking varric was alive? varric actually reduces their regret levels just by seemingly not being dead? he could have needled rook about letting varric tragically die as their beloved centrist bestie (like mythal lmao) and then they still get regrets, and he can escape! but somehow he mind controls rook... ineffectually, for no seeming purpose? fhdkhjfghkdf. i'm just not convinced!! this is flop-tier antagonist behaviour.
#solas#veilguard critical#txt#i just wish he had some actual crimes to commit bc i... don't want to make up new crimes whole cloth... effort... 😭#the ones in vg are so contrived and mild that i was like ???#all he successfully does is be a Bit Rude#which is somewhat less rude than he can be to a beloathed inquisitor or even sera or dorian or vivienne i think#and then it was pointed out to me that the entire. mythal appearance in vg is essentially her just going#“swiper no swiping!” at him#and it works??? not even like a real argument? 😭😭😭#free my boy... i like to make jokes about how unhinged and impulsive his dai decisions are#bc it is wild that he nearly just. quits and gives up and dooms the world entirely bc wisdom spirit died!! underrated trait imo!!#but he seems SO competent there by comparison... vg solas is Struggling. get him out of that terrarium it's not good for him#this is so sad. dread wolves only do this when they are VERY sick and stressed!! they need schemes as enrichment and for their health
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Tbh I can't help laughing about the "Lou doesn't like sex scenes!" criers because like.... girlypop what show have you been watching? None of the characters have Actual explicit sex scenes.
There are implied ones (madney, bathena, henren) and fade-to-black ones (Athena and her hookup in s1, Hen and her ex) and even post-sex scenes (Eddie/Shannon, Eddie/Marisol, Buck and his hookups in s1) but this is not the show for gratuitous sex scenes so like. What are yall gloating about? Ooh the new guy on the "we don't do explicit sex scenes" show doesn't want to do explicit sex scenes. Oh noooooo. This is totally unheard of and is totally a reason to hate him (heavy on the sarcasm if you can't tell).
Literally get up girlypop you're throwing a tantie about a scenario you made up in your head. "Bucktommy can't thrive since Lou refuses to do explicit sex scenes" no one on this show does explicit sex scenes. It's literally a non-starter.
#still laughing about this#bc seriously thats your best argument?#and you wanna call us the fetishisers? you sure? youre real worried about the nonexistent sex scenes of a mlm couple#anyway idc give me domestic bucktommy any day of the week#911 abc#bucktommy#lou ferrigno jr
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i’d love to know how much of early day's spn subtext was deliberate or just a happy accident bc the subplot of 1x08 bugs is sam and dean butting heads about how they were raised and sam hating it while dean tells him he should accept it as they protect a family; predominantly a father and son
the father and son argue bc the son is different and not who the father wants him to be while the son feels ignored and shunned (aka sam). sam spends the episode empathising with him and telling him he can look forward to going to college to get away from him just like he did while dean cuts in to say he should stick with his family
the entire episode, dean defends john and the way he raised them ("maybe he needed to raise his voice but sometimes you were out of line"), it even starts with him and sam arguing over their illegal ways of making money and how they were brought up in the life; dean adapting to and enjoying it and sam wanting to be honest and straight
they talk about sam being sure john is and always has been disappointed in him just for dean to say john used to go to stanford whenever he could to check on him and something about his expression is so bitter; like he knows john would never express that care for him
but at the climax when they're trying to get matt to convince his dad to leave, sam is the one telling him to tell the truth and make his dad listen whereas dean tells him to lie; implying he wouldn't trust his son enough to believe him
he outright scoffs at sam and asks him what he was thinking for trying to get matt to tell the truth
the entire episode, dean is advocating for the kid to work it out (almost to just take it) and stay with his family but when push comes to shove, he tells him to lie
sam who spent years resenting john and his family for how they were raised, fell back on "making him listen"; echoing all the arguments he had with john, trying to force him to understand who he is while john's too blinded by vengeance to even begin to try. the same way sam refuses to see how they were raised and why they were raised that way from john’s point of view, hinting at how similar people they are (which still isn’t an excuse but also not the point rn)
dean winchester, the king of repression and masking (and fawning), dean who at this point is still staunchly defending john, tells a shunned kid with a harsh father to pretend in order for his father to care enough to listen to him and believe him
dean knows reasoning won't work bc he's watched it happen over and over again with sam and john
even the way matt tries to say, “but he’s my… (father)” feels like he’s coming over to dean’s point of view; that matt as a son respects his father to enough to tell the truth and no matter how much they’ve fought, that should trump everything. but dean still insists he lies. and matt tells the truth. and his father doesn’t listen
there's no way they intentionally made dean subconsciously know that a man raising his son in a mimicry of how john raised them wouldn't respect or trust his son enough to believe him about something potentially life threatening after half a season of john ignoring them about something potentially life threatening
right?
#sam accusing dean of being perfect and thats why john never yelled at him actually makes me crazy#especially when you take in how much dean fawns when hes around john#fawning being the fear response of making yourself as unobtrusive as possible so you dont become a target#deans fawn response is to be the soldier; to always agree and listen to orders and be johns mini replica so he doesnt make waves#its not just him being a good son despite how much thats hammered into us over the course if the show#thats why he tries so hard to get sam to just agree and do as hes told; not just bc he thinks john is right but so it wont cause an argument#arguments he expressly hates despite being highly confrontational with literally everyone else#he only has a fawn fear response when it comes to john and sam; not even bobby gets the same level of repression#anyway i unintentionally started a rewatch and dean flipping on a dime about how the kid should be with his father twigged my interest#and how much of it was intentional? in the good supernatural in my head all of it is#but alas this is the real supernatural and it was probably completely unintentional and means nothing#especially since the episode ends with the kid throwing away the things that make him different#and sam saying he wants to apologise to john in person for the things he said to him when he left for stanford#hes dean says he will apologise then theyll immediately be at each others throats again but he doesnt really progress at all beyond that#he spends the whole episode saying relationships are a two way street and sam said awful things and should pick up the slack between them#and he ends with that same mindset so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ likely all of it was unintentional#coming out of my cage and ive been doing just fine.txt#carry on my wayward son#talk meta to me#supernatural#spn#meta#dean winchester#sam winchester#john winchester#john winchesters a+ parenting#save post
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I actually don't have any sense to what extent "male loneliness" is a real problem, like if the social trends being described are real and if they're especially bad for men, but it is annoying to me about how kneejerk a lot of the conversation is around it. Bc let's be real, there is a specific type of person who is ideologically committed to rejecting the suggestion that any kind of social problem is worse for men, and even if it is, thinks talking about it is with that framing means Letting MRAs Win, which is very tedious
#Possibly I am being naive here and this is something that is not reasonable to believe is a Thing#The data could be based on low-quality studies or could be misrepresented by the press#And people could be ignoring flaws they'd otherwise overlook bc it accords with their preconceptions or political agenda#Many such cases#And it could also be worth pointing out that even if the social problems described are likely real#The conversation is driven by a lot of people who are using it to argue for ends that a progressive person should object to#But I haven't looked into it#And the “noooo you can't say male loneliness epidemic” responses I've seen#Have not been super enlightening#I do not think that if men are especially more likely to be friendless or lonely or w/e#This implies that any particular policy counter to women's interests is the best way to handle this#And I resent the “oh you think men have it worse in this regard? like some kind of MRA?” rhetorical move#Because there are some actual social problems or adverse situations that happen to affect men more than they affect women#And believing this does not mean you think ~feminism has gone too far~ and ~now men are oppressed~#Or that there are no social problems that disproportionately affect women#Or whatever else#I used to have this kneejerk ideological thing going on so I guarantee it's part of it for at least some of the people#Obviously if they manage to generate a good argument for why we shouldn't believe in a “male loneliness epidemic” it could still be valuabl#Even if it's ideologically motivated
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Interesting that Kim is like almost always portrayed as being dominant and enjoying control in fanworks, which absolutely does have evidence in canon and is an interpretation I personally agree with to an extent. However, in the actual game, he's always letting Harry take the lead, letting you decide where to go, who to talk to, whether or not to take on additional cases, etc etc. Obviously, the doylist explanation for this is that Disco Elysium is a video game where the whole point is that the player can decide what happens and in what order, and Harry du Bois is the player character. Kim has to let you do whatever you want because otherwise it would be a boring and restrictive game. But if you look at it from a watsonian perspective, it can have so many different fascinating implications for Kim's character. Like, does he just implicitly trust Harry that much? Or does he trust the RCM that much, that he thinks any officer of the RCM must be worth following? Does he feel a lack of confidence in his own abilities to run the show? Is he simply more comfortable in a passive role? Is he just entertained by this deranged amnesiac man and wants to watch the show play out? Is he worried there would be consequences for stopping Harry from doing what he wants? Would it break some kind of unspoken rule (either for Kim personally or for the RCM) for Kim to outright refuse to let his temporary partner honor his strange whims? Kim is someone who clearly exercises an extraordinary amount of self-control, and is proud of it. But he doesn't appear to have any interest in controlling other people (at least in a professional context). I need to study him under a microscope
#personally i think it's a little bit all of the above#except i dont think kim is worried about any consequences from not letting harry do what he wants#bc he doesnt know you outrank him for the first several days and he does expressely stop you from stealing the corpse boots#but you could make the argument that he is worried about consequences for blocking Harry from stuff#it's just crazy. everything else about kim's character suggests that he should take control more than he does but he doesnt#which is necessitated by the medium but the consequences for his characterization are real!#disco elysium#kim kitsuragi
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don't know how people multi-fandom. dipped my toe into another one and immediately backed out bc everyone there was insufferable.
#ok i do know how ppl do it. the secret is having other moots in those fandoms#but i am an analysis and yapper girlie and reading the majority of y*ellowj*ckets takes are driving me up a WALL#[sorry y*llowj*ckets fandom rant starts here. tags contain spoilers for the s3 finale]#like i've lurked on the reddit and so many ppl there are dumb as rocks they don't even realize when a MAJOR PLOT POINT happens#but there are also some good takes on there once in a blue moon#and i enjoy how it's The Norm to call ppl out for being dumb as rocks abt things lmao. i love the argumentative nature of it#even tho i don't post there#on here tho? you get more nuanced takes but then you also get like 95% of the fandom who are blinded in various directions over their faves#and their rarepair / random ships. (and god forbid you express disliking a character. for valid reasons!)#and half of the fandom thinks everything they personally don't like / understand is Bad Writing#and another sizable part of the fandom is constantly chanting 'they're all bad! just pick ur fave and go!' whenever anyone wants to have#and nuanced discussion abt character morals / motivations or dares suggest that some of them are indeed less morally corrupt than others#a bunch of ppl are disappointed that they didn't get to see ALL the girls go feral and become 'crazy cannibals'#in the specific way they were imagining it would go from the pilot now that their time in the wilderness is pretty much up#EYE on the other hand enjoy the fact that most of the girls never truly descended to that level. never truly gave in to the wilderness#there have been moments for all of them sure. but in the end when it came down to the pit girl scene? the reality is most weren't into it#at all. the only ones who were really giving in were sh*na and l*ttie but everyone else was distraught over m*ri's death.#even with other characters using the hunt to conspire to take out sh*na l*ttie and possible t*issa like. in the end NONE of them could#go thru with it. which i think SAYS SOMETHING abt their character#sure they can plot all they want but when it came down to it m*lissa couldn't finish the job#and ahk*la realized that killing l*ttie in the caves would let IT in and change her forever so she backed down#ANYWAYS. just needed to Vent lol#maybe i will make this all a real post later lol (on my main bc that's where i post / rb yj content)
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"MY life has gotten marginally better or been unaffected under the current administration, so give the Democrats YOUR vote"
that's what y'all sound like. fuckin entitled. or do none of y'all actually believe in one person, one vote lol
just say that other people's problems, well-being, stability, and dignity is secondary to your fucking comfort under the status quo.
if things are "better under Biden" for you to such an extent that you feel entitled to other people's fucking votes, I got news for ya — you were probably fine under Trump too 🙃
#all i hear is#give me your vote#GIVE me your vote — and im not talking about from politicians#your ass is so excited to vote for a warmonger and a genocidal liar#which every us president has been to some degree bc that's the real face of america#ok then you and YOUR vote can vote for biden#bitching about leftists abstaining to vote blue this election is just y'all crying over the consequences#of demanding support from the demographics you clearly DO NOT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT#while loudly proclaiming and proving that you do not give a fuck about them lmao#mess#clown brigade#fuck biden#make a real argument please lmao#i have read and heard them all and they always boil down to this fucking bullshit#y'all pretend there's no nuance to ppl not voting this cycle but pretend theres nuance to#vote blue no matter who#lmao ok#i aint even old yet and im too old for this shit
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Saw someone say wakfus animation looks like something made by ai.....imgonna tie you up and throw you down a well. don't even play it's fucking puppet animation tons of studios and series use that it does Not look like modern ai generated slop 💔
#in reference to like season 1-2 which were animated in flash#the thing is. it also looks Good its nice to look at obviously theres a few animation#errors here or there but i rewatch ts yearly and barely notice#like the characters move smoothly the figjt scenes Are well animated and like 'it doesnt look bad' isnt a#great argument against ai generated images and animation seeing as its getting better all the time and Can look aesthetically pleasing#theres still an uncanniness in how it moves wakfu fully jusy Doesnt have that bc its. animated by real people#wakfu#moth.txt
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i would love to hear some of your opinions on illyrians!
SORRY IT TOOK ME FOREVER, but this subject is so personal to me, I get scared sharing because the internet and this fandom is known for bad takes. I'm tagging @amalhe-kofee because you also sent an Illyrian ask which I will answer too, but I thought you might like this answer!
For context, someone on Reddit posted the perfect question to help me structure my ideas: Where do you come from and how does that change anything?
MY RESPONSE
Finally! Time for me to start my unskippable dialogue cutscene 😂
Disclaimer: This is based on my personal experience only and I understand that this is a romantasy book (aka, I know it's not that deep). SJM's intention is definitely not about exploring tribal poc culture. Also, please excuse my usage of some terms, I'm trying to stay surface level and avoid too many identifiers as I am not comfortable. It's my first time wording these thoughts out loud, so please give me grace. This is very intimidating and personal.
I'm a mixed-ethnicity second generation immigrant in Canada, and the notion of identity is something that I think a lot about. I'm also in a part of Canada that has its own cultural struggles, and on top of being a woman of colour, I am often shoved into either camp of the language wars, or the secret third thing of an immigrant that doesn't belong here anyway, oop.
I struggle with the Illyrians and the representation of Rhysand in particular because to me (emphasis on to me because I don't trust people here not to come @ me about what's in the text/explicitly written), he reads like he has no specific cultural identity or more specifically, poc identity? I do give grace because the worldbuilding is enough to tell a story, but not meant to be scratched in such a way.
The way the Illyrians are described doesn't feel like a culture, but rather an outsider's point of view what they think the culture is like, but have no belonging to said culture. I also feel that a lot of poc/tribal cultures (one of which I am half and both my parents home countries were colonized) have extremely strong notions of family and tradition. I just don't get any of that outside of the warrior culture? Like it's not imbued in the characters.
Also, when cultures are assimilated/colonized, this also comes with it's own issues that is felt generations onwards. More on my mother's side than my father's side, but I can feel that something was lost over the different eras of different "colonizers" (sorry I'm lacking the word) and there were other things gained. It shaped the language, the food, the clothes, etc. Both my parents come from extremely poor villages, and I can also see how falling under the rule of empires and other Western countries have affected how they perceive the world and themselves.
That said, being mixed also comes with a whole new set of identity crises and trying to understand where you belong. It's a challenge, and I feel like it would make more sense for Rhysand to struggle with who he represents as High Lord because he is part of both of the major demographics of the Night Court. I absolutely stand by the questioning as to why he doesn't do anything for Illyria, and it would be interesting if he simply shunned that part of him. That's valid too.
It's difficult to synthetize my thoughts into a single post, sorry; I just find the notion of the Illyrians and the discourse around POCs very jarring in this fandom/in regards to this book.
I did start writing a fanfic of the story of Rhysand's mother and father to touch on these themes of Illyrians before and after the arrival of the High Faeries, but also Rhysand's mother's life in her village, then being torn from what she knew and thrust into a whole new world alone. Is it freedom? A better life for her children? Which culture does she prioritize?
#i do want to add that this is why i find the poc discourse in this fandom so unserious#SJM literally changes skin colours as it suits her narrative and the publisher's DEI/marketing#now if them being poc was actually weaved into the character the lore and their dynamics in the story that would be a real crime#if that was taken away#not tagging anything in the fandom bc this is my personal experience and i don't really wanna invite arguments#this is meant to share within my preferred community followers and friends because its precious to me
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It's frustrating how the conversation around generative AI came so close to tackling the environmental impact of tech, but ultimately focused on generative AI and generative AI alone, ignoring other aspects of computing like advertising and web hosting that have a larger yet less recognized impact.
Because of the excessive focus on AI images, I haven't even seen Tumblr complain about cryptocurrency in a while. You know, cryptocurrency, where the most common process (proof-of-work blockchain) inherently requires massive and ever-increasing energy consumption. There are thousands of data centers running thousands of computers at maximum capacity 24/7/365 for the exclusive purpose of cryptocurrency "mining". BitCoin mining alone consumes more electricity every year than entire countries.
But many anti-AI activists who bring up the environmental impact of generative AI are apparently only doing so as an addendum to their main reason for opposing it. So it's rare to see serious discussions of how, say, AI-generated online scams and SEO spam waste literal tons of electricity in web hosting to profit off of actively making the world a worse place. Instead it's generally "Stop using AI images because it steals from artists... and also it's bad for the environment, so there."
#ai#technology#my post#anti capitalism#just to be clear I am not ''pro ai'' in any way shape or form#bc there ARE very real ethical concerns. and personally I find ai-generated ''content'' almost invariably ugly and inane anyway#but it seems everything else has taken a backseat to the intellectual property argument
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