#cr fandom discourse

[lilpandrea]

God, not that anyone cares, but I might have to take a break from the cr fandom whenever Dorian speaks about or to the gods. The moment Dorian isn't some goody-two-shoes character and veers off from being an "agreeable" character to many...how easily these ppl just write him off as some stupid simpleton. Jfc from discord to Tumblr (don't know what twitter thinks since I don't frequent that place or live chat because when is live chat ever appeased).

Anyways, I'm excited to see what comes from this conversation with the AH. Cmiiw but I don't think Dorian knows you have to be an exalted ruidusborn to be a vessel. If he did, he wouldn't willynilly agree to sacrifice Fearne or Imogen. It's like a lot of you forgot one of his core values: his friends/loved ones above everyone else. He casted force cage on Fearne in the very same episode to protect her.

[luckthebard]

Will probably expand on this at some point but I want to choose violence now and really quickly fire off the opinion that:

The fact that a large chunk of people vilify imperfect mother Marion Lavorre but excuse and coddle actual violent cult leader Liliana Temult is a fundamentally conservative position which is quick to forgive a woman they can decide is manipulated and childlike and without agency while finding fault with everything another woman does because she’s a sex worker.

[wardensantoineandevka]

every time anyone that's even slightly critical of C3 calmly writes a post that's longer than 750 words in an attempt to unpack what they feel is not working in the campaign or what's happening in the fandom, there's a rash of its defenders going "why are the haters always writing these long posts all the time, we don't need anyone to be writing novels, why is the post so long. it's so ridiculous that anyone is writing essays."

personally, especially if I was trying to position myself as having intelligent and complex opinions and capable of paying attention to episodes that are five hours long on a weekly basis, I would not admit I thought 1.5k words was dissertation length.

it's especially funny because many of the same people keep stamping their feet that critics never explain their perspectives or stances, then they're mockingly dismissive when doing so doesn't fit into a tweet.

not to make it sound grave, but it's anti-intellectual, it's simplistic. above all: it's juvenile, childish, asking to be treated as a child. wah, so silly anyone could possibly have a meaningful thought that requires enough space it doesn't fit on my phone screen at once.

[song-of-baldy-ron]

Watched the latest Adventuring Academy and fully agree with Izzy's thoughts on femme-presenting or nb "chaotic" players

I really think it at the very least amplified some of the common critiques of C3, and shines a light on how I've viewed C2 for a while.

Almost on the flip side of that comment, I think Sam is an example of a chaotic player but one who still receives praise for committing to role play. One of my favorite PCs is Veth Brenatto and she's inspired at least one of my personal DND PCs but I just imagined what the fandom discourse would have been if Marisha, Laura, or Ashley would have played her.

Actively giving yourself disadvantage due to your (extremely valid with eventually disclosed backstory knowledge) drinking problem, even in high stress situations? intentionally forgetting about halfling luck or multiclassing into a class that isn't super helpful? endangering the party on numerous occasions with Sam's full knowledge or even intent?

Literally none of this should be seen as a hit on Sam or to say he did anything wrong, I am just recalling the pushback Marisha got when she leaned into Laudna's toxic/abusive relationship to Delilah, or Ashley (intentionally or otherwise) not using some class features frequently (cuz druids are complicated man), or Laura's decision to pursue Predathos/ make attempts to rebuild Imogen's relationship with her mother knowing the potential consequences on the party.

I know what you're about to say- what about Jester, wasn't she kind of chaotic? Sure- but she hadn't fully intercepted "the main plot" and kept her chaos mostly to side quests/ opportunistic moments- then again a lot of people lost touch with C2 over the Travelercon arc, where she was much more in focus, so maybe this dynamic was in play a bit (just like it absolutely was in C1).

I am not saying a male/masc player would not receive pushback, I am saying that the pushback would absolutely not be as extreme as it has been for these three especially in Campaign 3 where at least 2 of the 3 players played a more prominent role.

[batwingsandblackcats]

Yknow I really feel like if more people viewed critical role as a thing we are privileged to watch rather than something that is made for us, the fandom would be a lot more chill.

The story is for the cast, we’re simply invited to watch.

[utilitycaster]

In the end, it is extremely vindicating to see the various accusations levied re: why people don't like Campaign 3 because like, in the end, most of the people who do like campaign 3 are desperately insecure people who cannot live with the idea that someone else doesn't love the thing they love. Like yeah, if it makes you feel better, sure, call me a stupid jesus freak centrist edgelord who isn't a Real Punk (who also apparently only wants feel-good liberal endings), and who only cares about stories where you can ship two men; you can conjure up an image of me sitting slack-jawed on a couch, face covered with cheeto dust, pointing at the TV and going HAHA LIGHTNING GOD GIVE BIG LIZARD A BELT. It won't make you feel better, is the thing, because you've decided total fandom consensus is the only thing that will ever make you happy, and so long as a handful of people are like "Campaign 3 isn't very good and I don't think Bells Hells are very good people within the context of that world, and outside of that context I don't really care about them" you will be miserable.

[essektheylyss]

I am not immune to some collegial stats-based competition, but when it comes down to it, I do recall a time when there was a very bitter element of Essek-related bean counting because some folks very loudly felt that he wasn't treated well by the narrative (despite the fact that, as an NPC who was quite clearly going to remain an NPC, he had a proportionately significant amount of screentime and absolutely was treated quite well both narratively and by the party in-universe, and I've explained why even what is perceived otherwise in canon serves primarily as narrative device and his position within the text is in fact necessary for his arc), and every week in which he didn't show up again or there wasn't merch for him was yet another mark against the show. And in hindsight, the vast majority of those people left the fandom, either very suddenly and dramatically because something finally hit a breaking point, or by a slow decline and eventual dropoff, usually accompanied by an increasingly insular presence as their constant bitterness drove people to block them. This has not been a phenomenon isolated to Essek stans, but it was particularly prominent there because of the divergence between the perception of the blorbo (uniquely special, deserving of main character status, clearly relegated to second fiddle only to punish them, the beleaguered fans) and the reality (a character who was well-liked both in fandom and at the table and whose status in the narrative remained largely as it had always been signposted as).

In hindsight, I do think the collective burnout of that contingent was inevitable, because they focused on their bitterness to the exclusion of everything else they may have enjoyed about the show, and I would argue it's likely that that bitterness ended up subsuming even their love of the character.

Just something to think about.

[kerosene-in-a-blender]

Others have talked, very rightly, about Bells Hells having an extremely Us vs. Them style of morality and one thing I find interesting about all that is many of their most virulent (read: actively nasty towards other fans) defenders are also taking this stance. The party line has become that the segments of the fandom that are disappointed with how this campaign shook out have never been happy with anything Bells Hells did from the beginning and have been actively hating on people who do like it for just as long. Us, the beleaguered Campaign 3 lovers versus Them, the mean c3 haters (who are often characterized as being hung up on the Mighty Nein and simply mad Bells Hells aren't the Nein again).

What's been quite funny for me personally is that I have seen vague posts clearly targeted at myself giving me the above detailed characterization of the c3 hater when I: have never seen Campaign 2 (though I did watch Campaign 1 back in 2019), started watching live with the first EXU, got into the fandom (as a lurker) at the start of Campaign 3, didn't make any of my own posts about it until late 2022 and didn't start really posting in earnest until mid 2023. Practically none of the characteristics applied to the archetypal c3 hater certain fans have created actually apply to me, other than of course thinking Campaign 3 actually isn't very good. So it's been interesting to watch people draw lines in the sand and create an Us vs. Them narrative that I know isn't true based on existing as myself.

[geeky-zombie]

Every time someone says that you can't ship a character with anyone else because they're already in a canon relationship, a piece of my soul is violently ripped from me

[shorthaltsjester]

“slowburn of all time” and it’s a relationship that is nearly identical at the beginning and end of the story, and also features the characters getting together quicker than all but one of the main pc/pc relationships in previous cr campaigns . okay, sure. words don’t mean things ig

[lilpandrea]

You know what's sad? I bet if the opposite happened in which Dorian threw Orym's husband and father's death straight to his face like that, much more of the fandom would've been enraged. Tbh as someone who is a Dorian fan first before a Dorym shipper, some of the reactions to this interaction in the episode has been so frustrating. The downplaying, the invalidating, the hypocrisy of how Laudna/Orym fans are allowed to feel indignant for things because of their favorite character's trauma, but Dorian fans are being too much. (Props to those who have been actually objective and/or are excited to see where these two flawed characters go from here).

Now, as a Dorym shipper it really sucks to see Dorian come back, do many things for Orym: gave all (what happened to the money they got from the heist?) his money for the armor, reassured Orym before Swordgate happened, stood by Orym during Swordgate, gave Orym a piggyback ride (he wanted to princess carry gdi lol), saved Orym's life twice in one fight...only to have Orym throw his brother's death to his face like that...sure it's nice when a ship has complications but really? When his brother just died not too long ago??? Please don't compare this to Imodna divorce arcs, it's not the same. Oh gosh and then Dorian checking out of the conversation afterwards.

God, if his parents are in Vasselheim right now and sees him in gold too would that be his final breaking point until it all finally comes out? (I would love it if Robbie is waiting for the perfect moment for Dorian to finally boil over. Give me that tasteful angst)

No, Dorian Storm isn't stupid and needs to be re-educated, he is a complex character like the others and has his own reasons for thinking certain ways, just because you don't like or agree with his opinions doesn't make him a suddenly bad character, he is his own character and isn't there to prop up another character, he isn't the team's therapist, just because Robbie is newer to d&d than the others doesn't mean he doesn't know what to do with his character, Dorian didn't have to tell all the details of his brother's death for Orym to not throw it to his face like that...

Anyways, kudos to anyone who even reads this since it could've been organized better and written more eloquently but it was a frustrating itch that wouldn't go away until I threw it all up 😅 (and no, I don't hate Orym, I get it, just frustrated w/ fandom reactions)

[luckthebard]

Continues to be baffling to me how much of the CR fandom refuses to understand that, by the end of C1 (and frankly way earlier in that campaign than many people realize) Vax’s vow to the Raven Queen was totally voluntary, important and meaningful to him, and not something he wanted a trick or lawyer to “get him out of.”

I guess it surprises me to still see this because an intense disagreement about this was perhaps the biggest point of contention (and indeed one of the most interesting parts) of Vax and Keyleth’s relationship. I loved the disconnect they had about it as characters and that they stayed together in spite of it. (It’s part of what made me such a fan of Vaxleth as a romantic story.) But the Vax side of that disconnect they had about faith and fate and the gods seems to have been totally lost in the fandom memory of the campaign.

Vax does not see his service to his goddess as something he would need “rescuing” from and he would resent the assumption. De-orbed Vax would probably first go back to his duty and service, because that was meaningful to him. Breaking the rules a few times to try to save Keyleth doesn’t negate that, it’s just on-brand for a character who wore his heart on his sleeve and often made brash decisions to protect people he loved without thinking it through.

[song-of-baldy-ron]

As someone who’s dealt with addiction issues I’m begging the fandom to give Laudna an ounce of agency in this discourse

Yes various members of BH have either ignored or enabled her leaning into Delilah more but she has also started hiding the worst of these moments from the group/ lying by omission about how bad it’s getting and that’s absolutely on her

I fully understand where she’s coming from and the shame she’s feeling (I’ve even been there myself)

but she won’t heal until she takes ownership of that and begins to ask for help/ being held accountable by the group

[heart-heart-heart]

Post ep 119

You: want to wank and complain about every tiny little thing in CR; hate on Marisha/Matt/insert person here; cry about the gods' honor I: want to discuss the implications on the politics of Exandria, the power vacuum of power, how Vasselheim will react, the foreshadowing in the Bright Queen and Artagan comics, speculate who will say yes and who will try to fight, wonder what will happen with Predathos/Ruidusborn/Ruidians after this, and theorize if the descended gods will be archfey, mortals, demi-gods, or something else

We are not the same.

[ursie]

Ok just saw a tweet that said Ashton deserves their chronic pain (among other ableist ones) for upsetting Fearne and being “selfish” so new rule if you’re not PHYSICALLY DISABLED you no longer get to talk about Ashton unless you personally pay every cripple you know five dollars-if you don’t know any cripples? Never speak again. I’m not joking I’m taking him away from y’all until you learn to behave.

[mslaudnatemult]

Saw someone’s hot take that imodna was forced by the fandom and that’s why imodna is weird and not good…

My opinion: no