#datv discussion

[shartanscanticle]

the je ne sais quoi i miss most from the early dragon age games is a certain ethnographic/anthropological interest in how individual’s societies and living conditions shape both their worldviews and their politics, and I feel like that’s missing from Veilguard.

There are many symptoms of this: the companions not having interesting conflicts between each other, the morality of the factions feeling very simplistic/black and white, the way that there really is no follow through on everything the previous games told us about the Tevinter Imperium (slavery! Legalized caste system! Natalist/reactionary Make Tevinter Great Again political movement), etc etc etc

But i feel like it all comes down to the fact that the Veilguard writing is generally incurious towards how the characters exist within their context in the fictional world. Every social issue or cultural setting created feels like it was written for twitter discourse or a corporate pride post, not that it exists in the world of Thedas that has been built up for years and years and years.

[itsfennix]

THIS THIS ALL OF THIS!!!

It is so, so clear (at least to me) that Solas was loyal to a MASSIVE fault when it comes to Mythal. The relationship, regardless of if it was platonic or romantic, was the textbook definition of unhealthy. There’s an inherent power imbalance due to Solas’s allegiance as Mythal’s right-hand-man. Sure, one could equate this to a knight and his queen/princess, but still…….

Additionally, I really appreciate that Veilguard made it clear that Mythal was not nearly as benevolent as she seemed. Like what OP said about the slavery discussion! I always thought it was strange that Solas was this big “none of us are gods,” rebel leader, Breaker of Chains™️ …but was reverent of Mythal……. Even when we were in her temple, seeing these ancient elves with Vallaslin, marking them as slaves to Mythal the Goddess.

Solas has his internal war against his nature, his nurture, and his inbetween right in front of our faces. CONSTANTLY. The inq can say “but wasn’t Mythal one of the Evanuris?” when Solas brings up the truth of the vallaslin in Trespasser. Solas defends Mythal, saying that “she was the best of them” and she “cared for her people. Protected them.” Oh? Because it’s just SOOO much better to be enslaved to a polite person with a god complex than a blatantly abusive person with a god complex??? /s

Solas KNOWS that his reasoning is flawed when it comes to Mythal. He KNOWS, not even that deep down, that they both are WRONG. Another great example of this is the different endings so here’s an additional SPOILER WARNING

If you try to convince Solas to bind himself to the Veil, he’ll talk about not wanting to disrespect the people he’s already wronged by simply giving up. This is yet another hint that Solas is doing this out of his warped perception of justice and duty. The inquisitor asks him to stop, and he considers it. But he ultimately says the vow he made earlier to Mythal outweighs what happened in Inquisition. Again, Solas WANTS to stop. He KNOWS he’s wrong. He KNOWS the opportunity for amends is there.

But he’s so used to tossing aside his morals and nature for the whims and expectations of others. So it takes Mythal officially releasing him from her service for him to stop, just as it took Mythal officially requesting his presence in the mortal world for him to abandon his spirit form. Solas is willing to do anything, say anything, give anything, take ANYTHING to get the outcome he believes is required of him by someone else.

I was discussing the other three endings with a friend earlier today, because it really drives that point home. If you decide to trick Solas instead (and succeed), he’s actually kind of… resigned to his fate. In fact, he remarks that he’s impressed by your wit. He, who prides himself on the reputation he built of being the most clever of them all, has been outsmarted. And honestly, he should’ve guessed that exact trap. He REALLY should’ve! It was borderline obvious, especially to a veteran general such as himself. He does then snap and say you can’t understand what he’s been through, that he is “…a fool. Who has finally met his match.”

However… if you successfully fight him… He’s not nearly as pitiful. Instead, he’s absolutely fucking FURIOUS when you bind him. He goes feral on you, and then belittles you as a mere mortal whereas he is “…a GOD.”

Yep, that’s it. He said it. Solas, who hated the idea of godhood and resented the false gods of the Evanuris, proclaimed himself a god.

I told my friend about how much that difference broke my heart, because it truly shows that Solas will change EVERYTHING about himself to do whatever he thinks is best/required of him. He isn’t innocent, no, not even close. At his core though, he is still there. He is still wanting to have better, do better, be better.

Ultimately Varric was right. Solas comes up with excuses and justifications because his pride rests on his usefulness, in a way. He truly did need someone to sell him a better option. Unfortunately for Varric, Solas was tied to his past vow too much to focus on the present. But once he was released from that vow? He doesn’t hesitate to choose that better option. He catches his breath and then immediately binds himself to the Veil, making a new vow.

Time and time again, Solas proves that he is never whole. He is never settled, never stable, never revealing his true nature. Because he has been denied that nature. Ironically, he said of Cole “a spirit cannot change its nature simply by wishing.” Perhaps this was something he told himself as well, justifying the horrible things he’s done because he couldn’t possibly go against his wise and benevolent nature if he did.

Solas is a beautifully written character that has forever changed how I view my own storytelling, characterization, and even how I approach critical thinking in moral issues. He couldn’t be nearly as effective without the lore surrounding him, which makes him that much more real to me. While Veilguard felt far too removed from the rest of the franchise to me (in many ways), I did really enjoy it both as part of a series and as its own game.

The whole 'refuge for Mythal' thing is really interesting bc it shows that Solas really saw Mythal as being on his side when it couldn't be more obvious that she enjoyed the power of being queen of the Evanuris. He calls it a 'struggle' in the regret memory, but I don't think she was struggling as much as he thinks. Even Felassan realises how delusional he is about her. It's one of many things Solas is in denial about.

That said, it does seem like he was much more aware of Elgar'nan's evil than she was; I truly believe that Mythal found a kindred spirit in Elgar'nan and thought that she was the right one for him. She tempered him and mitigated the harm he did as much as she could (which doesnt seem to be that much, in all honesty). Whether or not they had romantic feelings for each other is up for debate, but I think it's very possible. There was likely an element of tension at being evenly matched in the way they were that gave their relationship a pathological edge. It was only when Solas told her about the Evanuris using the power of the Blight that she finally decided to take him seriously and challenge her husband and the rest of the Evanuris head-on.

It's also really revealing that the Blight was her final straw. Mythal obviously had no issue with slavery as long as her slaves were treated well. It's very reminiscent of real world attitudes some had towards their slaves ie that as long as you don't abuse them it's okay. They don't understand the fundamentally unethical nature of owning another person. It's why I don't buy the benevolence retcon because slavery is inherently cruel--something that both Solas and an elven Inquisitor can argue with Dorian about.

Yeah, Solas really is an unreliable narrator with Mythal and I really wish we'd had more perspectives other than his. I long to see Mythal in all her cunty glory but alas it will never be

[wolfsong-the-bloody-beast]

He gets it.

[rookamell]

Bellara and Lucanis both cook for the Veilguard BUT I can say with 100% certainty that they cannot cook for the Veilguard at the same time because deep down in my soul I know Bellara is the most chaotic person you've ever seen holding a kitchen knife and Lucanis Cannot Handle It.

[maagisterpavus]

not everything is about murder, lucanis.

[abyssalbathwater]

Haven’t seen much discussion on this but I think there’s a lot of potential in examining Solas through the lens of a war veteran struggling to re-adapt to civilian life. When you consider that he was put to war almost immediately following his ‘birth’ as an Elf, and that he spent an unfathomably long time embroiled in one conflict after another, it makes perfect sense that he wouldn’t know how to stop or how to adjust to a world he no longer recognizes. On top of which he would be dealing with severe PTSD at a time when psychiatry and the concept of mental health care is non-existent.

Just something I think about sometimes. Curious to hear if anyone else has thoughts on this.

[soulbrand]

man you all were not kidding abt the therapyspeak in veilguard.

[flowersforthemachines]

Regrets of the Dread Wolf || Demon's Bargain

For Bellara Week over at @datvcompanionweeks - Day 1

[0alix0]

i just want to point out what a stupid decision it was to ignore DA tradition of returning one of the previous companions and adding them to your current crew. it was so fun! it was so interesting seeing the same character perceive different situations and people. double it if they're changing between the games (anders) but no, the closest thing we've got is varric, and hoooo boyyyy do i have a problem with that

First of all Varric shouldn't be there. We all know that. Trespasser went above and beyond to put a fan favorite character in a good enough place so he still felt important yet had a finished arc. He returned to rebuild his city, settled down after everything he went through for the last decade and took deserved rest. But then we go to Veilguard, and guess what? Nope! He's hunting the guy he knew for a year (not even to save his actual soulmate-bff from the Fade) but just to shout at him without even bothering to understand his intentions, pull a gun on him not even 2 minutes in the dialogue and got stabbed.

Second, Varric has already been in two games. And not just as a small cameo, no, as a non skippable companion! Even if veilguard's writers intentions were pure (which they weren't) it's still waaay too much screentime for a one character to have no matter how loved. At best it shows them as unprofessional so they are blinded by their favoritism (which is never good), at worst as incompetent hacks who have to abuse character's popularity to cover their lack of writing skills.

Third, it's not even real Varric! It's your imaginary friend spitting the most basic-ass pseudo-motivational bullshit you can even imagine

And forth-- IT SHOULD'VE BEEN DORIAN YOU FUCKERS!!! YOU LITERALLY HINTED AT IT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE IN TRESPASSER. YOU MADE DORIAN UNKILLABLE AND UNSKIPPABLE. YOU LITERALLY BINGED YOUR NEXT GAME AS BEING SET IN TEVINTER AND WHO'S THE MOST LIKELY PERSON TO BE IN TEVINTER???? DO-RI-AAA--

[triaelf9]

Just a lil post about Taash and how I'm feeling about how ppl are reacting to them as someone who relates to them very strongly not only on the gender journey front, but also on the mom-issues front.

Cut for length b/c of course this won't actually be a "little" post lol

So I hear a lot of "Taash is too young" "Taash acts like a child" "Taash is too brash" "Taash has wildly binary views of the world" "Taash is thinks their reality is the world's reality" etc etc etc

And I'm here to say that as someone who realized that non-binary was a thing later in life, grew up trying to be them, but society was not only unwelcoming to that, but openly hostile at points, with a mom who had totally different interests, who very much wanted to protect them from the outside world to a point where it left them unprepared to deal with nuances of the world, etc, a mom who thought they were "just doing their best" but was never meant to be a mom, and never wanted to be a mom, didn't have the tools for mom-hood, who wanted to protect their child, but had no real idea how, and how every comment turned into the mom trying to steer her kid the right way, but just came out as a dig or a "you're not good enough" remark, AND looking after your mom in a world that is wholly unsuited to her, that she can't really adapt to and fit into, and kinda becoming her mom to a point so that your life completely revolves around her until you leave home?

Yeah. I get Taash. It's actually kinda freaky how, fantasy elements aside, I get Taash on a frightening level. (aside from the dragon stuff, we're both the same with that HELL YEAH DRAGONS)

Taash doesn't read young to me because I've always read young because of how I was raised. I didn't get the chance to figure myself out until I left home. I also had the benefit of being able to leave for college at a younger age, and got a chance to experience things away from my mom earlier. But seeing things in such a binary way, that's how it is when you're protected like that.

You don't want to admit how similar you are to how your mom sees the world, b/c she sees it in one way, and as you go through life, you get to learn differently. You come out of this situation INCREDIBLY judgmental at first. Why aren't THESE things conforming to MY reality. You come across as brash and childish. And when you get treated as such, it's triggering b/c that's how your mom treats you.

You hate how you look, you think you look like a freak b/c your mom is constantly commenting on your appearance. She does it out of love (she wants you to be healthy & not mocked by your peers) but she doesn't consider that constantly telling you not to look a certain way does damage. My self confidence only recovered in my thirties. I'm 4 days from my 38th birthday, and it took getting pregnant to finally be like "you know what, I don't hate myself & my body" which is MASSIVE for me.

So where do we get our self confidence? In things we enjoy, in hyperfocuses that we're good at. For me that's comics, naginata, fantasy & DA lore lol XD For Taash it's dragons, fighting, and working out. And when we falter there, it's devastating b/c it's the only way we can feel good about ourselves b/c our SELVES are disconnected and tucked away b/c they make us feel bad.

So I totally get how Taash reads to people. The autism aspects are more like my wife (who is autistic & has issues with social cues, while I'm HYPER AWARE of social stuff which fuels my anxiety b/c of the type of person my mom was and how I had to look after her), but I get it.

But it makes me sad when I hear people dunk on Taash as "bad writing" and "unrealistic" and "annoying" and it's like...is that how you see people like that? Is that how you see me and people like my wife? I feel like people aren't willing to look deeper so often (an issue with all the companions tbh & some day I'll have to get into my Davrin feels b/c BOY do I have them. Neve too, WHOOF) but I feel like if you do that in a game, I hope you don't do that irl.

anyway TLDR this is a Taash defense post b/c while they have a lot of issues, stuff they need to work out & have wrong opinions on stuff, they're growing, they're learning & they have to do it later than most. They're an incredibly complicated character with tons of nuance, and I can't wait to get deeper into their story and banter with companions in round 2 of my playthroughs, and then again in round 3

Sorry this is too long, and I'm sure not all of this was intended when they were written, but this is how it all clicked with me as someone who has lived a large portion of that stuff. Like, again, I'm nearly fucking FOURTY and I don't feel like I should be there yet b/c I started so far back. It ALSO doesn't help that ADHD wild child I was, I was held back in preschool b/c neurodivergence also makes a kid read younger, AND the choice to have me be the youngest in the class would have been a very bad one. So I'm older than most of my peers BUT I've always read younger, felt younger, and have had a sore spot when it comes to all that.

Thank you for coming to my Taash Talk, I'll be here all week to think about more stuff, including how their body makes them read as lady, and they're not sure how to feel about that, but they don't want to CHANGE it, but is it right?

ANYWHO this is why Taash is a fascinating character & deserves better than to be regulated to "annoying kid"

[welcomefortune]

I know I’m the only person who cares about this but it really bothers me that a Shadow Dragon Rook who is from a military family and from Ventus has nothing to say about how a few years ago the Antaam took the city and all the mages they could find were rounded up and forcibly lobotomized with qamek before being mercy killed and all the men were rounded up and press-ganged into the Qun. Not when Taash’s friend says he left the Antaam after being forced to participate in Ventus. Not during any of Taash’s quests about Qunari culture. Not in Treviso when the Antaam are occupying it and oppressing the mages there. And not even when they find out that the Antaam want to lobotomize everyone in Treviso! I feel like they should have some thoughts on that maybe! Especially if they are a mage! I feel like growing up in a nation that’s been at war with the Qunari for centuries, having your father actively fight against the Qunari your whole life and then living through a sack of a city that ends in the death of a bunch of your friends and neighbors by the Antaam should have some sort of impact on how Rook sees if not the Qun as a whole certainly at least the Antaam.

[amoaliquis]

Solas and his belt.

I know I ran across a debate here somewhere about what exactly Solas was using to hold his belt together.

It's hard to tell, but I am thinking it might be a piece of Halla antler? It's a toss up really. So, while Halla don't shed their antlers like deer, the antlers are utilized post death.

I am somewhat sure this is NOT a fang as fangs come to a rounded point on each end.

Like this: (yes these are wolf fangs)

Could he have cut off the curved side? Sure, but man, it looks like antler to moi.

Still, it's a hell of a lot funnier to think Solas lost a tooth in Dread Wolf form and decided it would make a cheeky little belt bluckle.

I love this guy.

[rsenak]

Save me crow yaoi save me

[maythedreadwolftakeyou]

i know we joke about Solas as Mr. Sunk Cost Fallacy The Man (including myself), but i do think while that's how he appears to everyone else in Thedas, a better metaphor for the situation he sees himself as waking up in instead is Omelas. he has emerged into a world where everyone lives at the expense of incredible suffering that only he remembers. except instead of 1 child being in that closet it's every single spirit left in the Fade, and all the people left on this side are walking around blind & with the lifespan of flies. And he's the one who unknowingly built the closet. and so much of the point of the story of The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas is that after reading it you ask--is walking away enough? Should they have tried to take the child with, or somehow free them? what about in a world where everyone has decided that the ones suffering don't actually count as "people", and don't mind that they themselves only live a month compared to a century? what about in the context of this all having followed an even older tragedy, where he did go along with what "everyone else" on his side wanted (in the war against the Titans) and now lives with the burden of not standing against the injustice then? and the Dragon Age franchise was willing to engage with this whole messy fascinating concept until suddenly it wasn't

[leliwardens]

see. one thing that always stood out to me about dragon age is the genuine attempts to integrate minorities into the world in a grounded way. this isn't to say it's always been done well, or even good, and sometimes is downright offensive esp compared/contrasted to the groups that inspired them. but when i think about other series that seemingly have racism for the sake of racism, (often simply bc they need x stand-in for this world) i've always appreciated dragon age for trying and doing more than that.

however.

if we had to sacrifice some of the fictional worldbuilding and lore to create better, more socially aware writing for real minority groups, then i'd be fine with that, welcome it even! but we know that's not and never was the case with veilguard bc why the FUCK are the qunari written like that.

[blightbright]

mythal nuance

look, i love some yikes women characters!!! have i mentioned how much i fucking adore knight-commander meredith? yeah, that genocidal zealot? sympathetic lawful evil ftw. one of my ALL-TIME FAVE CHARACTERS is mariah dillard from the luke cage TV show. she is ABUSIVE, including to her daughter, she is devastating and so well-portrayed, and she is such a terrible person AND i just adore her in her harmful flawed tragic selfhood!

flemythal? fucking love her, she's awful, she's hilarious, she's compelling, i think it's a travesty that devs didn't get kate mulgrew's voice and the flemeth appearance back in some timey-wimey fade magic way. i love how she feels at odds with herself, sometimes vengeful, sometimes regretful. i love her sweetness toward merrill and her funny interactions with purple!hawke, i love her confusion that morrigan is upset with her, i even love the YIKES ambiguous, semi-motherly, semi-loverly, intimate owner-pet vibes head stroking and nuzzling between her and solas in the DA:I end credits. OUCH.

veilguard!mythal IMO feels more like a mediocre narcissist who wants to maintain the status quo, and of course is faux "loving" AKA guilt-tripping and strings-attaching her "care." that's not badly written since it's a real thing, but she's not for me. the fact that elgar'nan presumably abused her is not super compelling to me because IMO it gives the flavor of a confederate slave-owning white woman whose husband is a piece of shit AND ALSO she still thinks slavery is fine and actively upholds and abuses her power over other people. this is not an analogy: mythal literally owns people as slaves. in my fic i try to give her some fairy queen style, wouldn't-it-feel-so-good-to-die-for-me vibes where she's liberal with her magically-hypnotic praise if you please her, to make her more inhuman and therefore interesting to me, but anyway.

i'm seeing accusations of misogyny if people love solas and hate mythal, and while we can and should critique how women characters are written and discussed, given the canon content, it's NOT an inherently misogynistic reaction to hate the character who abused a character you love. i saw a thing insisting "solas is always defined by mythal" and to respect mythal and... really? critique the writers as much as you want for setting this up, but do people really want to say we should always identify a person by their abuser's influence, or offer respect to that abuser??

are you also gonna say "morrigan is always defined by flemythal, acknowledge and respect her when talking about morri" after we know for a fact that flemythal repeatedly exposed morrigan as a child to sexual situations that resulted in violent death, encouraged her to push down her own sensitivity and feelings and focus only on power and manipulation, and morrigan tells the spirit in DA:O that she's still acting too gentle to be the real flemeth, even after smacking morrigan hard across the face and demanding morrigan show some respect? she had an influence on morrigan's life, but holy fuck does morri deserve to define her life by her own desires and her own choices and accomplishments now

if people are aware that solas was given mythal's slave markings, since she was a slaver like the other evanuris, then he burned them magically off his face when he led a slave rebellion against slavers, and hear all the clips in veilguard where she is clearly in a position of power over him, and still claim there was no abuse, idk what to tell you. you are incorrect. please consider if you have some cognitive dissonance about how much you love to hate solas (tho you can still do that even if a character has experienced abuse) and/or how much you want to enjoy mythal (tho you can still appreciate an abusive character).