#dav discourse

[roro-the-sleepy-monster]

Not to paint a target on my back, but some of you all act like Lucanis is straight and it shows.

[incorrectdragonage]

Solas: (conducting his ritual) What would you do, Varric? Varric: I'd contact local elves. Then I'd use a different way of working out— Solas: (sarcastic) Oh, the old "different way" method! I didn't think of that!

[fangatic]

a last note on the ai-fic bullshit

a couple days ago, a person i had never spoken to before shared my call-out post on x with the earnest intention of spreading awareness of the issue. she was attacked and harrassed so harshly by the same group of people who have been dragging my friends and i through the mud that she ended up having to deactivate.

this group of perpetrators then did their very best to turn this whole conversation on its head by accusing the poster of being anti-solavellan, of sharing the post with malicious intentions of dividing the fandom and tearing down amateur writers, and grouping her and i/my friends as antis and what not.

my thoughts on that development aren't any that i can express with any diplomacy or maturity whatsoever, but @drakonmo herself did a wonderful job at gracefully carving out the very important conversation we, as fans, need to have within our communities. whether you observed or participated in the conversation surrounding the silence and the song and the following shitstorm, i strongly urge you to read her post (here) (on x).

tldr/to those who might be in a rush, let me pull out some highlights:

by deleting the evidence and refusing to acknowledge the public claims were ever made, these people who despise me and wanted to foment discourse could succeed, armed with the trust and respect of loyal followers.

suddenly, the entire wall of text of explanations, of signs, of concerns were reduced to nothing but one portion of the whole. people began to attack OP and me and write threads, posts, etc, saying we were insulting all creators everywhere and we were - singlehandedly - the reason people didn't share their artwork.

clearly, these people argued, this insult and injury to all writers everywhere was a sign of these posts being a hate campaign. suddenly people could completely ignore the fact that the OP is a HUGE shipper, and i have been the world's most vocal proponent of shipping the particular character with anyone and/ or everyone.

i saw some people ask questions - what's happening, what's the drama, what's the situation? and they believed blindly the first things said to them without even trying to seek the truth or sources for themselves - and i truly mean this was an issue on both sides, for both people who ultimately agreed with me and people who did not.

the people that deliberately misrepresented what was being said, who nitpicked so that they could justify choosing "us versus them" - i ask that you consider, if you can and you would like to, to internalize and reflect how you may be susceptible to situations like this happening OFFLINE.

if ONLINE FANDOM misinformation can rouse such a level of discourse, hatred, fear, and anger over a fanfiction or ship ...what are the implications for REAL LIFE?

are you possibly reading a headline and believing it without reading the full article?

are your political and personal opinions swayed heavily by your peers, rather than being shaped by information and political education?

are you well informed and checking for bias from your chosen news sources?

do you exist in an echo chamber that has actively harmed your ability to understand other perspectives and worsened your capacity for allyship?

we best fight FASCISM when we recognize how we approach the people and issues around us, no matter how small. supporting artistic integrity in your fandom is a low rung on the ladder, but your approach to a sense of community and how news, conflict, and opinions form and spread IS vital.

thank you for reading, and thank you to those who have stuck by me (and by mo) despite the backlash it might have caused you. this has been insane and i look forward to never discussing that fucking fic again, but that doesn't mean we get to turn our heads on how this all turned to shit in the first place.

as a self-proclaimed safe space often characterised by escapism, we owe it to one another to make sure this community is as safe as can be and remains one where we care for one another despite which fictional characters we think should kiss.

[thelloydvoid]

What the current discourse over Dragon Age Veildgaurd feels like rn

Before anyone starts, there are critics of the game who are legitimately concerned because of how Bioware/EA have been lately. This meme is not directed at those people. I'm just tired of jerks. Let people be excited about things in peace, please.

[shippingmyworld]

My Veilguard hot take is that Davrin's companion quest ultimatum should have ended with the choice to save either Assan's life or the lives of Assan's siblings. Let me explain.

Davrin's narrative is constantly a pull of self vs. community. He left behind his entire clan because doing his duty to his community and preserving history didn't bring his self any fulfillment. The first time you go for a walk with him he tells you that he found fulfilment through hunting, which eventually turned to monster hunting, which led him to the Grey Wardens. However, this came with the unexpected consequence of hardening his personality. With death around every corner, he could no longer be true to his kind and caring personality (insert over-cited evidence of Davrin singing to Halla as a child). Members of his community could disappear overnight, and would do so regularly because of what the Wardens did. That's why when Assan came into the picture, he tried to keep the griffin at arms length. After Weisshaupt however, Davrin lost nearly his entire community and was only pulled out of his despair and anger when Rook reminded him that Assan needed him. Davrin let go of his community willingly again, and was able to find joy in being true to his self again and raising Assan.

The Wardens were still there, albeit broken and scattered for the time being, but Davrin stepped away and focused on Assan. That's why Isseya is the perfect foil for Davrin. She's also a Grey Warden elf that made the opposite choice in this instance, she chose to fulfill her sense of duty to her community instead of herself, and then lost herself after her Calling.

That's why the final 'ultimate' call with no good ending for Davrin should have been a choice between saving Assan or saving Assan's siblings. Imagine that Isseya is moments away from finishing her ritual to successfully blight the other griffins. Davrin sees Isseya's struggle, sees himself in her eyes and understands her plight of self vs. community, and still wants to believe and appeal to the kindness that he knows is somewhere deep down inside her. The same kindness that he's carrying himself. Isseya did what she did out of love for her community, however her love for the griffin's of her time was just as strong, which is what twisted her into the Gloom Howler. As we see in-game, Isseya's been too corrupted by the Blight, become too devoted to her crusade to 'rescue' the griffins from the Grey Wardens to give up and Davrin's final appeal to her fails. So, paralyzed and broken, Davrin turns to Rook and Rook needs to make a decision; either charge in with Assan and risk the young griffin's safety to rescue the rest of the clutch, or hold back for the ritual to start and give themselves and Assan a safe window of opportunity to strike down Isseya.

If Rook charges in, Isseya will abandon the ritual and turn her full attention on Rook and Assan. This would end with Assan giving his life to protect Rook, allowing Rook to strike the fatal blow. The other griffin's are safe, they won't go extinct, but now Davrin has to mourn the loss of the griffin he came to see as his own son. He wouldn't blame Rook of course, Assan lived as a Grey Warden should, preventing Darkspawn from taking the lives of others and fulfilling the final part of his vows, 'In death, sacrifice.' However the pain of losing Assan will never fade and should Davrin survive the final battle, Davrin will sacrifice his self fulfillment again to fully devote himself to his community in order to honor Assan's memory as a Grey Warden. The griffins remain with the Wardens, and Davrin makes sure they're always treated properly, however never gets close to another cub again.

If Rook holds back, Isseya will be too focused on her ritual to prevent getting struck by a surprise and fatal blow from Assan and Rook. Assan is safe, however his siblings are now either dead or blighted from the ritual, meaning they have to be put down. This means Davrin has failed his duty as a Grey Warden since he couldn't keep the griffins safe. Now Assan is the last griffin left in existence and once Assan dies, the griffins will be extinct once again. He wouldn't blame Rook in this scenario either because it kept Assan, his son, safe. Should Davrin survive the final battle in this scenario, he'd sacrifice his place in his community since he'd never able to forgive himself for failing to save the griffins. He'd instead devote himself to raising Assan and taking care of Arlathan Forest, like his Uncle Eldrin.

I think that personally I'd just like to see something that has more immediate and recognizable consequences then what the game gives us. The negative aspects of bringing the griffins to the Wardens vs leaving them in Arlathan just seems too vague to really feel like the choice has much of an impact. Sure, history could repeat itself and future Wardens might take advantage of the griffins, but that's big 'what if' that's just looming in the distance. And if you leave the griffins in Arlathan, you're just letting nature take its course and letting wild griffins live their lives without any sort of force to protect them, which is another big 'what if' regarding their future. Plus if some big bad blight-related threat did appear on the horizon, the codex entry from Ghilan'nain implies that griffins are already natural predators to the blight so no matter where they are they'd likely come back to fight it off, Grey Warden trained or not.

[halsinsbiggernaturals]

Things to look forward to in the new Dragon Age:

This marginalized group is a little too sympathetic so we retconned the lore to make them look worse 🤗

You can kill another Dalish clan

Why does everyone have mullets

Thedas has no eyebrow artists, Thedas needs no eyebrow artists

Somehow, this minor villain you killed has returned

The fandom being absolutely insufferable about how their Warden/Hawke/whatever should have been here

Cullen is here for some reason

Didn't his VA get cancelled? Are they sticking with him? Does anyone know??

A character creator with the worst lighting you've ever seen in your entire life

Everyone's first characters looking like clowns as you desperately try to figure out the makeup settings

Fresh new absolutely fucking bananas discourse

Get microaggressed by all your companions!

[murdergrandmafanclub]

Watching the “secret ending” of Veilguard like:

[danielnelsen]

i think the point i’m trying to get at in my tags on that recent post is basically…

the more choice you give your players, the less their choices matter, just from an entirely practical perspective. at some point you have to draw a line between letting the player have complete creative freedom with their character and making the player feel like their character has an established presence in the world

that was the whole thing with origins: you didn’t just go around with a few different options based on your race; you had a very different experience depending on your origin, specifically. a dwarf noble and dwarf commoner may both be from orzammar, but their reception upon returning is extremely different. city, dalish, and circle elves have completely different experiences throughout the whole game. human nobles and human mages get very different opportunities and reactions from all kinds of npcs. every character starts off feeling like they already exist and have friends and family and complicated circumstances

personally, i’ve never found it restrictive to be given a solid background. there will always be other options that it would be cool to have, but that line has to be drawn *somewhere*

if you compare da2 and dai, i’m very glad they didn’t try to add different backgrounds to da2 because *being hawke* is so integral to the game, so to add different backgrounds they’d have to write a whole in-depth plot for each of them; it’s not just about adding a few dialogue options

that was the problem with dai. given the scope of the game, i think they was right to give you options for your inquisitor, but they didn’t have time to write them in a way that actually made them feel like part of the world. and it doesn’t help that you spend the whole game very far from home with just a few text-based missions to interact with your past

so when they say there aren’t proper background options in veilguard beyond your race and faction and you’re gonna be able to come up with whatever backstory you want for your rook… that doesn’t make me feel excited, it just makes me feel like rook’s past won’t matter and won’t be relevant at any point. what happens when we visit the place that i’ve decided my rook is from? i’m not gonna run into any friends or family or awkward situations i left behind

sure, factions will give some background, but what did i do before my current job? i’m planning to play as a grey warden, and that’s not a life you just *happen* to be part of. i must already be a skilled and experienced fighter who decided (or was forced) to leave everything behind to follow a greater calling. i could have been anyone before that… so how will they make me feel like i already existed if they’re leaving that definition up to me?

[silverhalla]

when I was little I used to play clue with my sister and when I won by being like “okay YOU don’t have the candlestick and I don’t have the candlestick and there are no more cards, so it’s gotta be the candlestick” she would get really mad and tell me I was cheating because I wasn’t supposed to be making assumptions like that and she didn’t understand where I was getting the info from, so I was ruining the game for her

anyways I don’t rly get why people on twt are THAT mad about veilguard spoilers because they do not seem that deep

[bookseffect]

Everyone wants the edgy RPG choices, no one wants to deal with the consequences of said edgy RPG choices.

Yes, I am looking at the Dragon Age community lamenting the lack of "dark choices" in one breath and lamenting the absence of characters like Bull, Zevran, Fenris or Cullen and other "beloved, much better written characters" in another.

[sheis-theslayer]

With the release of DAV sales numbers being "below expectations," I'm just here to remind everyone that we are NOT here to celebrate this.

You can have all of your reasonable, story- and lore-based critique. But """lore compliance""" was not the focus of the massive sexist and transphobic anti-Veilguard campaign that preceded the release. There was not a groundswell of vitriolic and violent rhetoric around the lack of carry-over choices. It was not people upset about Solas's motivations or the portrayal of circles in Minrathous who helped push people away from this video game. Whatever Jepler said about Lavellans was deeply, deeply ignored by the people who hated this game the loudest.

The people who (successfully, apparently) campaigned against sales of Veilguard are not your allies. They by and large, would rather you be silent. And that's a best case scenario.

A financial failure for Veilguard does not translate to "oh, man, the writing was not perfect" for major executives. It translates to, "well, the market doesn't like this woke stuff."

Veilguard is imperfect. It also exists at the end of the worst, most chaotic, most hamfisted dev cycle imposed on a major video game...maybe just short of Skull & Bones. That heavily influenced the game that it became. And critique is good! You can disagree with it as a DA fan all you want. But you cannot, CANNOT, let the incels win this round by falling in line behind them because you happen to also dislike the game.

This is a MASSIVE loss for anyone who isn't a fucking weirdo gamergate incel. Please be normal about this. I'm begging you.

[mindtrove]

My main gripe with Mythal is she was given the Mystra treatment.

3 games and this is the visual image we are given?

This is the All-Mother, Goddess of Benevolence and Retribution and you made her design so underwhelming..

[antivaan]

i was going to reblog a second dav-related survey that showed up on my dash, but there was a question on it that made me stop and seriously evaluate the surveyor's goals: "Do you consider Veilguard a political game?" and the options they give are: "Yes, and I appreciated that" / "Yes, and I didn't like that" / "No" / "Unsure"

i wasn't really sure what the survey writer meant. what are they defining as a political game? is it up to responders' interpretation? why would they give two Yes answers with those specific caveats? and there's a question on the next page about observing "backlash" towards the game in the fandom and giving you an option to express that you think it's rooted in bigotry.

so then i have to assume they're using the term "political" in the way that you often see it used in the video game sphere: "Yes, and I like seeing trans people in my games" / "Yes, and I hate seeing trans people in my games" / "No, I choose not to interpret the political angle which is the same as believing there isn't one" / "I don't know enough about politics to answer/nuance without the option to elaborate/i'm bald."

queerness is not the be-all-end-all definition of the word Political, despite what shitheads making youtube videos with photoshopped thumbnails of Taash would have you believe. in fact, in the Watsonian context of Dragon Age, it's rarely even a political concept at all. you know what is?

slavery, monarchy, autocracy, imperialism, colonialism, crusades, spiritual lobotomies, piracy, prisoner's rights, capital punishment, children's rights, elven sovereignty, civil war, land disputes, rebellions, mercantilism, assassination, and one very large militant religious organization. just off the top of my head.

these are all concepts that are reflected in our world in one way or another, historically and in modernity. these have all been touched on, to varying degrees, in the world of Dragon Age. these are all Very Fucking Political. and these are all things that dav fails to engage with in any meaningful aspect. in this, dav fails to "Be Political," but it does not mean it is not Political. in fact, it only makes it MORE Political, because the basis of political privilege is being able to ignore (or even straight-up deny) certain aspects of politics due to the fact they largely do not impact your life.

i won't go on for too long about it, but i'm not going to share the survey even though i responded to it before really realizing what the survey writer's perspective was. yes, showcasing queerness in your modern video game is a good thing and a politics-heavy decision to make in today's political climate. but to pretend that that's all dav has to offer in the way of political themes does the criticisms of how it did handle its other politics-heavy decisions - whether it knows it made them or not, whether they were made out of abstaining from acknowledging them or not - an incredibly bad-faith disservice.

[quirkwall]

I do think the cartoonish nature of the trailer was... a surprise. But honestly? I don't like the hate bandwagon going on.

I don't mean this in the sense of "don't have a negative opinion", because we should all have our own tastes. I've been a dragon age fan since DA2, I am well versed in the art of shit talking dragon age while simultaneously defending it to hell and back. It's the DA relationship, if you will.

What I mean is that I think a lot of people (especially on the trailer youtube comments) were just... jumping in, doing the hate train because everyone else was on board with the destination set to shit talking. Without forming their own opinions. It is honestly a good representation of how media criticism has evolved.

Best comparison I could give would be the live action ATLA series. I disliked it from the trailers alone. But then, I waited for it to come out, watched it with friends, and now I openly talk about the countless bads while also mentioning the few goods it had. Because I form my own opinions, be they negative or positive.

I do think Veilguard won't fulfill me. I unfortunately became extremely passionate about DA2, and no other dragon age game has done it for me. Origins was nice, but maker Kirkwall has charm. I thought Inquisition was disappointing, but I also have no trouble singing its praises.

But from what we're seeing I am hopeful. Even if the game is trash, if the companions are well done and bring me back to my DA2 times when I replayed the game countless times and lost my mind laughing at Fenris and Anders' banter (I always brought them together everywhere, poor sods)... I'll be satisfied.

If you hate what we have seen so far... I just ask you think for yourself, and form your negative opinion based on your own thoughts rather than jumping on the hate train. That's the problem I'm seeing: not negative reviews, but mindless negative reviews.

[chandra-nalaar]

the fact that this fandom considers shipping lucaneve a war crime is further evidence that the dragon age fandom will fight about literally anything

[depmode]

it would be nice if less DAV defense/positivity wasn't based on throwing DAI under the bus and talking about how it was bad and/or DAV did something better. leave her alone!! 😔