#discussion theory

[nickpeppermint]

New baby Ghast was added, and they're super adorable!!!

But now i wonder if the baby Ghasts from Minecraft Dungeons are not canon anymore, or maybe they're translucent only in the newborn stage, and the rehydrated ones are more like toddlers? 🤔

[pinkcarabiner]

sometimes i think we need a reminder that butch and femme are identities used to describe individual people. they are not a monolith of traits that can be applied to every butch and every femme in the same way. each butch will have their own interpretation of masculinity, and every femme will put their own spin on femininity. someone being masculine or feminine in a way that you doesn't conform to your personal acceptable standard of presentation doesn't make them any less butch or femme!!!!

[twilightofthesandwiches]

…Okay, so I don’t really want to make definitive statements about, like, anything going on with the Knight or the Holidays, obviously there’s still a lot we don’t know yet… I’m more spitballing ideas than anything…. But…

What if Dess isn’t the Knight because Dess is dead? Something that Carol is keeping covered-up from the rest of Hometown and even from Noelle (Who is under the assumption Dess just disappeared one day and probably just ran away from home).

The Knight might be Carol, or maybe the antlers on their helmet are purely decorative and symbolic of their alliance with Carol rather than indicative they are literally a Reindeer Monster…. (I did notice Papyrus’ house was apparently empty during the start of Chapter 4…)

Or maybe Rudy has been putting on an act this entire time I dunno?

Mainly I’m thinking this from an angle of “what the hell would be the Knight’s motive to open Dark Fountains?”, “what would be Carol’s motive?”, “What would be Kris’ motive for helping?”

And we literally just established that under very specific circumstances, a Dark World is capable of reviving a dead Monster via their dusty burial object.

If Carol’s goal is to turn all of Hometown into one big Dark World where her eldest daughter is alive… maybe out of an idea it will bring the Dreemurr-Holiday Family Unit ‘back to normal’, that will, well… it will certainly explain why Kris is obliged to help due to their ‘promise’, even as it’s implied it’s against Susie’s best interests.

And it would also connect to the idea of the Three Heroes banishing “The Angel’s Heaven” in Ralsei’s abridged prophecy.

“Heaven” in the sense of a perfect Afterlife, and we already have one member of the Holiday Family who is heavily themed as an ‘Angel’...

[medicalunprofessional]

ohhh hell yes

[rambyol]

How queer! A Piltovian Pressed Powder Palette?

HeadCanon: Silco had Marcus smuggle this across the border because the Leader of Zaun cannot be seen purchasing Piltovian merchandise.

Also can we appreciate the COVERAGE of that pressed powder. Look at the contrast between the upper and lower part of his scarred side in the second image. You ever wonder if he had to trial and error his way through different foundations, concealers, and powders until he landed on what worked for him.

On the topic of Powders…

Remember how Vander suggested to Felicia that he liked the name ‘Violet’. Well since the flashback with Felicia sort of muddled the story and the character dynamics between Vander, Silco, Vi, and Jinx, I’m going to take the liberty of making the assumption that Silco absolutely could’ve suggested the term ‘Powder’. Bear with me here because I know it’s been joked about in the fandom and yet…

We know young Silco wore makeup:

E.g. Eyeliner + Eyeshadow

So I think it’s plausible. I see a scenario where Felicia points out how Silco isn’t wearing his eyeliner/eyeshadow in that scene

and he responds with something along the lines of;

‘Ah I’ve been meaning to get some new powder. Haven’t found one I’m fond of yet.’

And the rest is history.

[egophiliac]

Hi it's just to let you know that the official romanization of Revaan's name is Raverne ! Also they have romanized Baul's name to Baur !

Twst coming back at us again with the least expected romanization! thank you everybody (oh god my inbox) (no it's great, I literally asked for this and the reactions have been INCREDIBLE, thank you all!)

I do like Raverne though, I think it's got a nice fancy sound to it! (I had kinda suspected it was going to be an R instead of an L, so the fact that it's SO close to Laverne except for that is hilarious to me personally.) and Dragoneye Duke is honestly probably the best translation for his title, I wasn't envying the localizers that one. :') Baur instead of Baul I was NOT expecting, but in retrospect I think his name's supposed to be a reference to the Bauru crocodile, so that actually makes way more sense!

someone else also said Meleanor has become Maleanor, which is the REALLY weird one to me, because I was so surprised it was written as Mel instead of Mal in the first place?! oh god no I can't decide which one I like better. 😭 (I wonder if they might change it to Mal...they have made romanization changes before) (like I remember House of Distraction being corrected to House of Destruction in Playful Land) (I did check and she's still Mel for now, but I dunno, they might Mal her up and some point and save me from having to make a decision about which one to use) (HECK I CAN'T DECIDE)

uhhhh thank you for letting me ramble about anime names, let's just say MONOGRAMMED SWEATERS FOR EVERYONE

[babybluey]

Parents, Freedom and how Carol Holiday has been present since the beginning

Carol is already climbing up there as my favorite character in chapter 4, if not of the whole game, and we literally just met her lol

But because of this I’ve been thinking about her a lot… and I realized that she’s been foreshadowed since literally the beginning of the game and it’s driving me actually insane.

Like, since the very first chapter, the bosses have all had this thing where they’re just incredibly shitty parents. And when they’re not parents they’re just incredibly shitty irresponsible adults.

In chapter 1 we meet king, a tyrannical ruler who doesn’t think twice about using his young son to further his own ends, and is a slimey coward to fakes remorse to take advantage of ralsei’s good nature.

This trend continues in chapter 2: Queen is an overbearing mother that, while genuinely wanting to do good for the lightners, assumes herself as smarter than them and forces all her decisions on them with no thoughg on whether they even agree.

Tenna is a bit more shaky, but since the TV dark world was created by Kris, I think Tenna is either:

        ⁃       representing kris’ repressed trauma and loneliness over now being alone in a once warm and lively house, wanting to get those days back (Tenna child of divorce memes are so real)

        ⁃       More generally Tenna acts like a very troubled parents who uses their kids (the lightners) as emotional support and validation instead of actually dealing with his own insecurities and problems, alienating them in the process

I personally think both of these observations are true.

The titan’s in chapter 4 also produce children versions of themselves, though I think that’s pushing it as the titan is more if a force of distruction than a character.

But who do we get introduced in chapter 4 who fits this theme? Carol Holiday that beautiful soul

The MOMENT, I swear, THE MOMENT SHE WALKS IN, THE WHOLE ATMOSPHERE CHANGES IN A DIME. It’s crazy, we’ve met tyrannical rulers and wire-mind controlling dictators, and we were forced to live the TV apocalypse by a man child, but this random, average, boring everyday woman is the single most hatable character in the whole game.

Because the tyrant, the dictator, the manchild, THEY ARE ALL HER!

Since chapter 1, we’ve been establishing this oppressive parental force in the form of the bosses, they’ve all been terrible but ultimately, before ch 4, it’s all been a game, you could defeat them. You can’t defeat Carol, she isn’t a game. Her mere presence is a blizzard. The adults don’t take her seriously, but Noelle, her own daughter, is terrified of her. Her whole character arc in ch 2 was standing up to Queen, but she can’t even look her own mother in the eye.

When it was revealed her and Kris are working together my jaw actually dropped. Because it means she’s been involved in the plot since the very beginning, even though we could never see her. If she’s the knight (which I don’t think she is, but this can’t be dismissed) it wouldn’t be out of pocket that the chapter bosses have been manifesting as they are because of her disposition, since chapter 4 establishes that the lighter that creates a fountain DOES influence the behavior and appearance of the darkners in some way.

Hey, this can work even if the knight is dess (which I believe), because she could be projecting her feelings of her mother on them as she’s making the fountains, intentionally or not.

And like… what better way to represent the game’s theme of denied choices, of having only one path you can follow through regardless of whether it’s actually good for you, of whether it’s beneficial at all, of whether you want it, than through an oppressive parent?

Like, being born is literally the shittiest gamble of all. You need to beg on your hands and knees that you’re gonna end up with decent enough people as your caretakers, because Jesus Christ, if they’re not, you’re FUCKED.

You can obviously still have a great life, but your parents will affect your life FOREVER, you have a part with them with you wherever you go, every single little action from them can cause a shift in you inexperienced soaking child brain that affects your ENTIRE LIFE. And that’s just the people, the economic status they come with can be even more deterministic of the kind of life you can have, most people will stay in the exact social class as their parent. Throughout history you’d have the same exact job as your parent, regardless of your talents or passions.

And goddamn, Carol SUCKS, and she’s obvious she’s got kris right where she wants them. I struggle and won’t put a definition on them yet, since the nature of their relationship is so vague, but I really don’t blame people for interpreting it as grooming, it does NOT look good. Even if kris was super on board on whatever the plan is, it’s obvious that they’re relationship with Susie and Ralsei is deeply affecting them and they not be so keen on going on with everything anymore, but they can’t do anything about it, with or without soul, they’re never free, there’s only 1 path.

I don’t think Carol is going to be complitely unredeemable, she could have very sympathetic motives, but her actions have an horrible effect of every single character in story. Like bro literally all the major characters have parents issues in some way!!!! And all the parents, while good people, fail to properly relate and understand them.

All of them except one: the Old Man.

Since his earliest scenes, this old turtle has proven to be the next best thing to warm bread. He’s so amazing he makes me cry.

He’s a happy, wise, truly free person that doesn’t need anything else from life, and wants the kids to be as fulfilled as he is, but, and this is important: THROUGH THEIR OWN MERITS.

He knows the kids need help, and he gives it to them, but not by imposing his views on them, or acting like he knows better just because he’s older, he knows the kids are smart and he lets them come to their own conclusion naturally.

He encourages them all throughout the chapter to not follow a prophecy just because it has been written, that they can write their own story, that’s the beauty of stories! He’s the FIRST character to suggest that the prophecy doesn’t have to be followed, and he himself as a character is a complete coincidence! He wasn’t meant to appear, since as the representation of a loved one he can only present himself in extremely specific circumstances, but now that he’s there he’s not gonna make any moment go to waste, he’s gonna guide these kids and make amends with his son regardless of the fact he’s literally dead and it wasn’t meant to be!

His appearance could legit be the catalyst for the prophecy being destroyed and it was all an accident. I’m obsessed with it.

There’s also the whole thing with Susie and her freedom, and how that so easily also corresponds to teenage rebellion to authority, she’s writing her own life dammit!!! Fuck you mom!!!! Fuck you society!!!!

This could have been the same for Dess as well at first, before it turned into a more negative, destructive, and selfish kind of freedom, but this is more speculative.

I’m so fucking excited for how this whole thing gets explored, there are so many possibilities and they’re all peak. The lighters could team with knight Dess to defeat Carol, or maybe Carol and the Knight are working together with Kris, or maybe Kris and Carol are working AGAINST the knight but for different reasons that the heroes, it’s all so hype.

These are my two cents but I love stories that take the small, private and personal and turn it into a metaphor for larger, more philosophical themes and I’m so glad deltarune is looking to be one of those stories. 

Susie kill that hag.

[saelrum]

guys GUYS HEAR ME OUT--

There are 2 Knights on each side in chess.

What if. Snowgrave Berdly becomes a second black knight.

(this is taken with the Dess = Knight theory. Considering that she's been stuck in the shelter for years and got corrupted to an unimaginable extent. And we know that in Weird Route Berdly also is kind of stuck in the Dark World. At least his consciousness is. If he's even alive. So. What if THIS is what happens to lighteners who are stuck in the dark for too long? Just a thought)

((the comeback would be legendary tho))

[nutterzebutters]

Honestly given the update I'd like to say a few thigns

First things first, white lily cookies separation!

This character is so brief that one might not think about it, however I do have it in mind that this Tower keeper had purposely reminded pure vanilla and white lily of the riddle in order to push Lily to make a decision sooner, rather than later as originally intended. I do believe it was a good decision for her to go off on her own, as we all know that pure vanilla is quite lost on the topic of dark enchantress vs lily- at this very time we are unsure if truthless recluse is a further repressed version or a version that has somewhat accepted it. Furthermore, if truthless recluse is a shard/illusion I do feel it may defeat a lot of storyline purpose, and do hope that it is truly a pure vanilla or part of him that has since transformed.

As for this sprite - I will not lie this is not the Sprite I was expecting to be edited for beast eyes! I totally expected the mental breakdown Sprite. I've seen a few say that this might not be pure vanilla as Shadow milk is tampering with memories- however!!!

Part of the tactic is to put pure vanilla in situations so that he may react himself in order for shadow milk to place the narrative that he will become just as bad as him. He can use these reactions and insecurities against pure vanilla- after all he poked at pure vanilla on the matter of Lily becoming dark enchantress. That she may have been more qualified to wield the power of Truth regardless, using pure vanilla's self perceived failures as the device.

This one's a little peculiar, I have a few ideas here.

Step one, I feel I should clarify if it's not already obvious that the implication of pure vanilla being Shadow milk is not a literal one~but one that works in tandem with the ladder truth of the story. Much like Shadow milk, pure vanilla does lie! Even if Shadow milk used it for his own game, pure vanilla is self-aware enough to recognize that he too has lied so that cookies may find a sweeter world. Even if it's about himself, or about the situation at hand regardless if it was for comfort it is always dug him into a hole and has even gotten him in trouble with friends. He too is somebody that has been shown to be skilled tactically- it is very reasonable to say that beyond the soul jam this was the sub-context shadow milk was bothering pure vanilla about back in episode 2 of beast yeast, "the biggest liar" as a means to place on pv.

Now let's talk about the sheer silent terror that Truthless recluse is bc I can't express enough how unnerving he could be.

Throughout the entire time, fortune teller cookie still kept a rather calm demeanor. Keeping pure vanillas soft spoken attitude and quick thinking when it comes to help- even when faced with his current self. He was silent, he was an observer and he did it without much hassle showing how cold and calculating fortune teller cookie operates. It's a different type of imposing presence than Shadow milk but I would imagine it isn't any less cold.

It does not seem that shadow milk had given him any power boost either, rather that he was holding back the first time gingerbrave and Co fought him. This is a character who is making moves with precision bearing a frigid expression not at all like the warmth that the characters have come to know. The safety that was pure vanilla cookie has been ripped out from under Earth bread at this point, as for a large majority he has somehow remained the catalyst/nexus for a lot of progress events in the main story..

-----------------

I don't have a screenshot of this part, but I do remember golden cheese appearing next to clotted cream in the Republic! I do feel that shadow milk had used the likeness of such figures to instill what may have been a previous anxiety of pure vanillas. Especially towards golden cheese, whom seeks comfort in the fact that he has experienced the same events regarding his kingdom. It shows that for pure vanilla there's always been a confliction and form of denial regarding Lily- losing the trust of everybody he has put every effort into protecting is definitely a huge fear.

I'd also like to point out in case some were confused, the doubt pv has of his power being Shadow Milks is not merely a ownership conflict despite the wording!!!!!! I can already smell the misinterpretations.

It's that everything pure vanilla has worked through was only really lent to him, his skills and anything else that may connect to the soul jam has created a permanent tether to the ladder: making it near impossible to escape. Even from episode 2, Shadow milk has set up the very open paranoia of forever watching pure vanilla- it's a consistency so we cannot say for sure that this part is a lie!! After all, in the developer commentary live stream it stated that shadow milk is more incomprehensible than the other beasts- and just unlike the other beasts his relationship with pure vanilla and the way their soul jam works is entirely different.

Pure vanilla is aware that now that shadow milk has been there the entire time, he needed to be extra careful. Now with this vision he feels that he can't use it at all unless he wants to bring danger to the cookies he cares for- damned if he does and damned if he doesn't! As if the soul jam attached to him is nothing but a tracking device with a chain.

Just like the countless appearances of Shadow milk you can only really go off of consistencies in a world of lies. One of these consistencies is the idea that pure vanilla is more connected to the other-realm/dark side of the moon then your typical cookie. It's hard to say if he inherently came from the realm, like some sort of magic birth such as candy apple but the fact that shadow milk left it so open ended leaves it as a possibility-

NOW. I will not be showing the awakened spoilers, as I am aware they are about and circling. For those who wish not to see it, I will not show it! However I will talk about a few details that I will keep for the sake of selective obscurity as I do believe that the pure vanilla Nation won💀

We all remember the theories?? Hell, even with the connections to moonlight and keys. Y'all he's gorgeous. I cannot WAIT until he gets patched in. It also seems that some of truthless recluse stayed! Hinting to the idea that pure vanilla did not escape unscathed and reinforcing the narrative that being somewhat more intertwined with Shadow milk is not a lie. That pure vanilla will eventually gravitate towards a different balance, Fun things!

[thedigital-dumbcircus]

Caine and bubble are rogue AI

Caine suggesting here that leaving the “other intelligent ai’s” would be a bad idea.

He doesn’t let them run for a prolonged period of time, that’s why there’s only one adventure at a time and he “kills” the other ai after each adventure and replaces them with new ones, resetting their memory and taking them under his control again.

So I’m guessing caine is definitely a rogue ai. He has control over the circus because he was left to it basically (by the creators of the digital circus?) which is why he knows and learns and has memories and stuff.

Also, pomni mentioned that she ended up here because she was into exploring abandoned buildings. Whatever company left the circus in progress abandoned the project. Abandoned caine. Now Caine has free rein.

He might’ve gained sentience.

He couldn’t have gummigoo doing that so he killed him.

One little hole in this theory is bubbles presence. Uh yeah I’m not sure about that guy. He’s clearly another sentient ai, I’m not sure if he has free will like caine does. It would be pretty funny if bubble and caine were just the same being but split in two, don’t think that’s canon though.

So yeah I’m guessing that the other ai have the potential to be more powerful within the bounds of the circus like caine, but only if their left to actually really create and keep memories become conscious.

[nickpeppermint]

After episode 2 people start complaining that Jax is way too unlikable, and not the sexyman they imagined him to be

It's been a long time since the pilot, everyone went through crazy flanderization by content farms, making us believe that Jax is a quirky silly prankster, when in actuality, from the day one, he was meant to be a real asshole, and honestly it's great

What i like about Jax's character is that he (and probably Zooble) the only one who truly understand that there's quite literally NO consequences to any of their actions

I really want to see him push it to the limit, because

What would they do? Kick him out?

[crowleysgirl56]

Something that I’ve noticed is the multiple references to Hell being “Understaffed”.

But, Hell is only ever seen as being really over crowded.

Heaven on the other hand is practically empty.

(I found a good comparison gif below.)

So why is Hell considered understaffed? Why do they keep pushing that narrative? What are they hiding? Or are they just lazy?

Or, do they really think they’re understaffed because they literally don’t have enough people to manage all the paper work for all the people in Hell because all the souls of everyone who has ever lived have ended up in Hell, and no one yet has gone to Heaven!

That’s my current theory anyway. Love to hear everyone else’s thoughts and theories on this one!

[twilightofthesandwiches]

When I made that post about how Spamton and Tenna were probably both mimicking each other due to mutual jealousy, I mentioned by the end that, although both of them saw the other as having something they lack...

Spamton was, like, objectively the worst-off between the two, and his jealousy of Tenna is probably more 'justified' than the other way around'. But also Tenna is unaware and probably totally incapable of understanding this fact . Since the reasons behind it are dependent both on the culture of the internet and the deeper machinations of Light and Dark.

I didn’t really go into depth about it at the time cause it is a complex topic that I did kinda cover for Spamton before Chapters 3 + 4 even released and if I started going into it in detail, it could’ve easily overshadowed the main point I was trying to make with that post. But since I did get some comments/questions about that aspect… I thought it might be a good idea to give it its own post going into it in detail and clarifying my point.

So, both Spamton and Tenna imitate each other because they see the other as an embodiment of something they don’t have. Tenna has the charm, prestige and both metaphorical and literal ‘bigness’ that Spamton craves. While Spamton has the modernity, understanding of technological progress and ability to reach Lightners that Tenna’s so insecure about lacking these days.

(I think you can kinda see it as a metaphor to the relationship between traditional media and the new media in general. Old Media such as the Television is getting overshadowed and outcompeted by the Internet-based New Media, but it also still has an air of respectability and prestige that New Media still generally lacks. The fact that Tenna is specifically jealous of, like, the lowest, least-respectable, most obnoxious aspect of the Internet is just an extra detail that makes him more uniquely pathetic.)

But the main difference is, like… So Tenna is a Television Darkner, he’s supposed to exist for the purpose of providing entertainment. He loves entertainment because that’s what he was created to do and entertaining Lightners is the thing that makes him feel truly fulfilled. He is also, by all accounts pretty damn good at it.

Like, the main conflict between Tenna and the Lightners is because he wanted his show to go on forever (And also he kidnapped Toriel and was keeping the Dark Fountain from getting sealed and working with the Knight). They did clearly enjoy being on his show as a temporary thing. He's honestly good at this.

I mean, the fact that he has a set Purpose hardwired into his very being and can’t feel truly content unless he’s fulfilling said Purpose is kinda Existentially Depressing if you think about it too hard, but at least it’s something he both enjoys and is good at.

And then you have Spamton. As the Magical Dream Representation of Spam Email, he is created to scam people out of their money and information. He is also generally obsessed with all the things your usual Spam Mail blathers on about, success, prestige, being a BIG SHOT. But being Spam Mail also means he is utterly terrible at doing his Purpose and fulfilling his goals. Spam Mail is weird, obviously scammy, gets thrown away 99% of the time, and is the lowest and most incompetent form of online advertising/scams. The basic essence of his metaphysical being is to be a frustrated, miserable failure.

Of course, this isn’t as simple as saying Tenna is metaphysically allowed to be truly happy while Spamton isn’t. Because it’s been a long time since Tenna has been able to fulfill his Purpose. He’s good at entertainment… but he’s not good enough to get anyone in the Dreemurr household to turn on the TV on the regular. His show is loads of fun, but it’s also kind of repetitive, cheesy and old-fashioned… because that’s also the Lightner perception of the classic TV that Tenna was created to represent.

You can easily say that just as Spamton’s preordained role is to be a failure because Spam Mail is by definition crappy, Tenna’s role is to be a failure because in these modern times, the definition of the television has changed to be ‘not good enough’.

And the whole thing is actually totally outside Tenna’s control. Obviously no one can truly control the march of time or stop new entertainment technology from being developed, but even in terms of the content Tenna can provide if he's switched on... That’s in the hands of Lightner TV producers.

In his Dark World, Tenna’s living the high-life, the biggest and only Big Shot in TV World. but he’s incapable of being satisfied with all of his power and prestige as long as he’s a failing his Purpose as a Light World television. A matter that is actually totally beyond his control.

Tenna’s aware of all of these problems, but he’s not fully aware of how these issues reflect Spamton’s situation. He’s knows nothing about the modern internet world

…He doesn’t know what being ‘Spam’ means, and therefore has no idea what Spamton is supposed to be. He met Spamton during the brief period of time the salesman was genuinely successful as an adbot, he has no idea about the unlucky Addison he was before or the total wreck he became later.

… But that is also part of the crucial difference. Spamton only became successful and therefore happy due to the help of the mysterious Someone that has been calling him.

And…we are still not quite sure how that worked. Was that simply someone from the Light World aggressively clicking on so much Spam Mail and shitty ads that it temporarily changed Spamton’s status in the Dark Worlds? Did that Someone give Spamton the secret to actually defy the role assigned him by the metaphysical laws governing his existence? Was it done through the power of the Shadow Crystal? The power of the Prophecy? Were they taking advantage of the fact that the events we're talking didn’t truly happen and were instead retconned into Spamton’s personal history when the Computer Room Dark World created him?

There are so many question marks about Spamton’s Mysterious Benefactor and how that whole thing worked… and that’s because giving Spamton a happier and more successful life is something that seems like it should be literally metaphysically impossible. And while Tenna was pretty much trapped in an unsatisfying existence due to the nature of his being and circumstances beyond his control… his problems were also much easier to solve from a Lightner perspective.

Sure, the television doesn’t get the sort of universal success and influence that it did when Tenna was brand new, but there are still people who watch and enjoy it. As long as that fact holds true for at least one household (and seeing how books, radio and cinema still exist despite the television overshadowing them back during Tenna’s hay-day, I doubt the TV will ever die completely) and as long as Tenna himself is a usable television then Tenna’s happiness is absolutely achievable.

It is kinda existentially terrifying to think about how this was all out of his control and couldn’t have happened if not for Kris and Susie’s actions in the Light World, that Tenna himself still had no power over his own happiness… but that still leaves him in a better position than poor Spamton, where… even if you were a Lightner honestly interested in giving Spamton a happier life… what could you do for him?

Like, Noelle obsessively responds to "Free Friend Finder" Spam in a desperate attempt to find Dess and that got Spamton's attention and gratitude, but it was still obviously a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the success he is destined to crave for… So this is clearly much more complicated than just humoring a few Spam Mails (and also, even that plan carries a much bigger risk to the Lightners compared to just giving someone a second-hand television. Because Spamton is also ontologically doomed to bite the hand that feeds him.)

But, like, there is a reason why Tenna was shoving his nose into Spamton’s Secret to Success. Obviously with Tenna already being Executive Producer and God-King of TV World, he��s not exactly looking to become a ‘Big Shot’ in the Dark Worlds - he’s looking to have the sort of reach and influence that internet-based Darkners like Spamton seems to have over the Lightners. He was looking for Spamton's advice in the hopes he could help him to understand modern technology and the changing times, help him to stop himself from becoming increasingly outdated… But is that something Tenna would've been even able to do?

Again, before the TV World Dark Fountain even opened, Tenna shouldn't have had any way to affect his situation in the Light World, he was just an inanimate TV. If Spamton taught him to 'plug in'… what would that mean? Would the Dreemurr Household's living room TV suddenly gain the ability to connect to the internet? Would it suddenly transform into a Smart TV out of nowhere? Would it suddenly starts broadcasting new content that's more appealing to modern audiences (at least according to Spamton's advice)?

The idea that's the least magically-breaking-the-laws-of-causality is that Spamton was thinking of asking Someone to upgrade Tenna's inanimate TV self in the Light World… and even that kinda stumbles into the mindfuck acknowledgement that all of the events we're talking about didn't truly happen the way Tenna and Spamton remember them because they were an inanimate object and a spam folder on a laptop at the time and all of their past and memories of being People were created when they were brought to life by their respective Dark Fountains so how could they ask anyone in the Light World to do anything at that point in time?

Tenna was actually trying to get Spamton to help him do the same thing he's done, defy the fate he was doomed to because of what he is in the Light World. To help him break the laws of how Dark and Light work so he can get closer to accomplishing his dreams. Even though he doesn't seem to be fully aware of the fact that was what Spamton did in the first place. And… there is a level where I'm wondering if Tenna even understood the full ramification of what he was planning for himself?

Because when it comes to Tenna being unaware of Spamton's miserable fate due to the fact he doesn't know what a "Spam Mail" is, that is a simple problem of a lack of knowledge. Tenna just doesn't have that information due to his status as a pre-internet piece of technology. But when it comes to the matter of the metaphysical mechanics of Light and Dark and how Darkners work… I feel ike it's not really a matter of knowledge as much as a matter of understanding.

Tenna clearly knows that as a Darker, he is created from the Dreemurr Household's TV, he knows that before the Dark Fountain opened he was just an inanimate object, he knows that means that his Purpose is to entertain Lightners… But does he actually think about what all of these facts actually mean? Does he fully understand the implications of his existence? I've already wrote so much about all the little things that make Tenna's life, maybe better than Spamton's, but definitely kind of an existential nightmare in it's own right if you think about it… but that's the question, does he actually think about it?

When we was trying to get that 'deal' done with Spamton, was he thinking about in terms of 'I'm gonna need to break the laws of what it means to be me, Tenna, a Darkner based on this specific old TV. Because by definition I am outdated and if I want to actually catch-up with the times and be watched again, I will have to change that Definition somehow?' or was it just 'Oh boy! That Silly Little Guy knows a lot about this internet stuff that scares and confuses me! And he's got so many views! I have to ask him how he does it..." without ever thinking of the implications of how'd he'd replicate 'how he does it'?

I think there's a lot of little hints that Spamton doesn't just want to rebel against the metaphysical laws that made him a constant failure so he could be a Big Shot… Spamton also wants to want different things. As he exists, Spamton isn't supposed to care about anything but deals and scams and money and success (while also existing to constantly fail to achieve these things), but his actual dream is now something much bigger than that, much more centered around his freedom. Although part of the tragedy is that he is still doomed to only being able to think about it in terms of power and status, and doomed to being unable to think of a plan to achieve that dream without scamming money out of people and exploiting them in general.

Even when he's giving Kris the KeyGen, he has to try and sell it for a sometimes ludicrous amount of money, because he's not supposed to care for anything but sales and deals… But he does seem to try and fight against this instinct.

And it's clear that he is very emotionally hurt by all the friendships he lost and all the bridges he burned. With Tenna most obviously, but also with the Addisons and with Swatch. As a Spam-Email, he's not supposed to care about those things more than he does about Deals and Scams, but as a person, it's clear that this is a huge part of his angst. In the Normal Route, Spamton starts projecting his own issues on Kris the moment he sees them walking through the Dark World alone. In the Weird Route, Spamton only starts doing it in the NEO Boss Fight, when they start calling out to their friends. Either way, it happens when he sees them alone.

In terms of the metaphysics of Light and Dark, Spamton's essential definition is being a weird failed scam-artist. In Spamton's own eyes, his essential definition is being lonely and abandoned.

And of course, the whole point of Spamton NEO's Spare Route, the closest thing to a happy ending he ever got, is about abandoning all of his grand plans to become [BIG] for the sake of friendship.

Tenna… does not seem to struggle against his nature in the same way. He is not bothered by the implications of having a set Purpose or maybe he just never thought about it that much. He fully embraces the idea that his Purpose is to Entertain and to be Watched, and even when he's sad and frustrated because he can't fulfil that goal… he blames himself for failing to fulfil it, he does not go against the idea that fulfilling this Purpose IS the number one thing he wants and needs.

He's already in a better spot than Spamton was, because, although he's got a bit of an Entertainment Industry Sleaze coding to him with all of his shady contracts, being based on an Object that generally makes Lightners' life more enjoyable and has a lot of sentimental memories associated with it makes him considerably more capable of caring about other people and forming meaningful relationships. But even when his obsessive pursuit of his goal ends up with him alienating all of his TV World employees (even Mike!) and causing his world to crumble all around him, he never doubts that there is nothing more important to him than Entertaining Lightners.

I think if you went to Tenna and asked him if he ever wanted to want a different thing, something that doesn't make him totally dependent on outside approval, he'd just be confused. What in this world could be a better and more worthy goal than bringing smiles and tears to the lovely viewers at home? What else is there? It's just not something he could ever even being to think about.

And sure, Tenna might know and acknowledge that he's the Dreemurr Household TV and that's why he cares so much about entertaining specifically the Dreemurr (and Holiday) family… but does he truly understand the way that his personality was shaped by the emotions of Kris and Toriel during the night the Fountain was opened? For him, his emotional grief at the slow dissolution of the Dreemurr family is just his genuine emotional response based on his personality and his memories and the experiences he had… and I think it is real... but it's also a projection of Kris and Toriel's feelings.

For him, his fixation over Toriel is born of the fact she was the last member of the Household to consistently Watch him…

But it's also born of the way he's kind of a reflection of Asgore's Divorced Behavior.

Is Tenna aware of the idea that his feelings, that feel 100% real for him, were also 'given' to him by the Lightners? Does it bother him at all? Does it not bother him because of an actual confidence in his own personhood and the validity of his perspective and his personal sense of self… or just because he never thought that deeply, that far, into the implications of his own existence?

Tenna knows what it means to be a Darkner, but he doesn't understand what Spamton understands. And as long as this gap exists, Tenna won't ever really know how miserable and doomed Spamton truly was. And I think as Tenna gets happier and more content, now that he's got a new loving home, he will be less and less driven and able to understand it. This little adventure he had with the Knight and the Fun Gang was probably the closest he's ever gotten.

Even if you sat him down and patiently explained what a Spam Mail is in the most 70's terms you could muster, he still won't truly understand why Spamton can't just replicate the success he had when these two knew each other, or why Spamton was so determined to 'see past the Dark'. Not anymore, at least. Because that requires delving into things he knows, but has never truly understood on a deep level. And maybe it's better for him that he doesn't.

I think, Tenna was on… the precipice. He took great interest in Spamton's success, he wanted to know his secret, they had almost signed a deal together. Tenna's frustration and lack of ability to fulfil his Purpose had led him to a point where had almost tried to defy his Existence the way Spamton had never stopped trying. He was unsatisfied and miserable enough that he almost became… maybe not exactly like Spamton, but at least a lot like King. Y'know, the Dark World Leader who got a lot of secret info from the Shadow Crystal Holder he was closest to, and thus inspired him to rage against fate and actively try to defy his Purpose?

Maybe not exactly the same as King… but he had almost tried seeing too far. Almost.

But at the end of the day, Spamton felt that the only way he could be truly happy is to find some way to cut off his puppet-strings, while Tenna is someone who finds true joy and contentment in simply dancing along to them.

[gihun-the-troubled-twink]

Isn’t it crazy how Sangwoo, Salesman, and Junho all collectively had immense daddy issues and they all believed that Gihun was gonna be the one to solve those issues for them? Crazy stuff right??

[mumblesplash]

if i’m being honest everything i can remember getting in trouble for saying as a child ended up being entirely justified and correct. they (every adult) hated me because i spoke the truth