#even if will breaks down (s3/s4) and tells mike everything that he's feeling and it backfires

[chirpsythismorning]

☎️🎲 🤼‍♂️ ✈️🚪 ➡️ 🫀🎮⌛️

The Promise by When In Rome

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[nikolai-vincent]

Y'all I have a big list of Byler things and I need help to make sure that everything I've stated is actually true and not my mind making things up💀🤣🤭 so prepare for a long list and I'll cut it down so it doesn't take years if you wanna scroll by it lmao

Mike tried calling Will all the time while he was in Cali (& could be the reason for weird airport interaction) Mike can't use a telephone to talk to El bc of of government listening in, so Dustin's words are about Mike calling Will but not being able to reach him.

It wasn't love at first sight, the offical season 1 trailer with the scene where they first find El, Mike's first thought is "That's not Will." And also this is Mike's plan to get rid of her from the night they found her, even though he is supposedly already in love with her since he said he loved her the moment he saw her?🤨

His monologue didn't help/wasn't fully true, El didn't have a single flashback of her and Mike throughout their whole relationship except for when they found her in the woods. They've been dating for roughly 9 months before breaking up for 3, then getting together again and currently at 6 months (so 1 year and 3 months of officially dating, having known each other fully for 3 years, although not fully because she was gone for a whole year) and yet she didn't have a single other memory besides the night they saved her?

Mike and El didn't speak that much for 2 full days while they were stuck in the van?? Even after Mike's love confession, all El was apparently talking about was how she feels like she lost the battle with Vecna and how Brenner had put it into her head and stuff.

Mike has a sort of superhero idealization for El. He's mentioned multiple times that she's a superhero, she's a machine that can help find Will, and it's shown throughout the seasons how much Mike loves superheroes. In my opinion, that's not a super great thing to compare your girlfriend to, especially after she has shown to want to be more than that, but feels like that's all she's good for now.

They never see eye to eye/always disregard the others feelings/attempt to be understanding. All of their arguments I've seen, they both try to be understanding at first, but then they shut each other down and speak for the other person when they're doubting each others thoughts (one scene perfectly showing this is their fight in El's room in season 4).

Mike and El knew each other for roughly a week (at 12 years old) before getting together and then immediately getting separated for a whole year, only to become reunited and jumping immediately into a relationship at 13 and ignoring their friends to only kiss each other for 6 months and not deepen their bond emotionally?? Then they break up like it's nothing and Mike doesn't know what she likes when he tries to buy her a gift to apologize (only after Lucas says something) (then getting into a fight with Will for the first time and apologizing as soon as possible on his own choice).

Mike has issues saying I love you (tried saying it once in s3 and couldn't even say the word "love", instead going for "blank makes you crazy" which El didn't understand. Only time he says it was in a high stress situation and he blurted it out to everyone except her, with a look of shock and confusion. S4 he doesn't say it at all, writing "from, Mike" all the time, to which he is confronted by her and only is able to say "I care for you... so much." And "I say it." ("It" being I love you) (which is a lie) That fight in El's room would've been the perfect time for him to tell her he loves her after he sees her crying to him about it, he could have perfectly said something like, "El, of course I love you. I'm sorry I don't say it, I'm just not used to feeling this way, but thank you for talking to me about it, I'll try to work on it." Or something to comfort her. In the end he is only able to say it in a high stress situation (AGAIN) and only after having a whole speech from Will, and needing Will to tell him not to stop and to say whatever it was he couldn't before. (Which, Will didn't know that Mike couldn't say I love you to her) Mike was given false hope that El needed him and felt better for being different because of him, which was a lie and those feelings were from Will himself, his speech was a veiled love confession.

Mike subtly (or unintentionally) compared both of his relationships with Will and El by saying that meeting Will "was the best thing he's ever done" but meeting El was "Not fate. Not destiny. Just simple, dumb luck." (He chose to befriend Will, by actively going up to him and asking, whereas he didn't choose to meet El, it was an accident).

Mike struggles to switch his focus between El and Will, we've seen throughout all of the seasons how Mike acts with Will and how he acts with El, and I'll be honest, they're pretty similar. He's soft, sweet, and casual with Will, and he's nice, gentle, and kind with El (just in general, relationship stuff aside). But then you put them in the same room and Mike doesn't know how to act properly with either of them, and we honestly don't see the real interactions with these three until season 3. I've noticed a lot that when Mike and El are in a relationship, they ignored everyone and just made out, but after they broke up, the whole group was together and had no issues with doing so (I guess the flayed helped with that, though lol).

Will is the only person that Mike will immediately try to apologize to if he did something wrong, whereas anyone else he blames others and doesn't apologize until someone tells him to (examples: Dustin told Mike to apologize to Lucas in season 1 after they fought, Mike was blaming Lucas and didn't want to apologize even though Mike was the one that started the fight. He didn't apologize to El in season 3 for the way he was acting, instead choosing to lie and needing help from Lucas on what to get for El as an apology (again, Mike knows nothing about El by this point still), and yet later on after he has a fight with Will, he bikes to Will's house to apologize, he blames himself, calls himself an asshole (with Lucas following, not leading). Seasone 4, the second fight that Mike and Will have is in the skating rink, Mike calls Will a douche and says he sabotaged the whole day by moping, rolling his eyes, and not talking but later on he goes to Will and immediately starts apologizing and says he was being a self pitying idiot, and telling Will that he wasn't being a douche and Will didn't deserve to be called that).

Mike and Will are very different compared to their friendships with Dustin, Lucas, or Max. (With proof being from Mike himself, saying "Max and Dustin and Lucas.. they're-they're great.. they're great, it's just-it's Hawkins, it's not the same without you. And maybe I was worrying too much about El, and I feel like I lost you or something." (Something along those lines lol)

The Duffers have compared Mike and El's relationship to Elliot and E.T, a friendship between a kid and an alien.

El was upset with Mike during the cabin cleaning scene (giving him a side eye and sighing heavily before going to her room) after Mike's supposed love confession.

Mike agreed (by nodding) when Will was talking in the desert about how it's scary to open up to people you care about the most bc of them possibly not liking the truth (Will was comforting Mike about El during this, sort of) (Why would El not like the truth if the truth was that Mike loves her?? Sus).

Mike showed a big difference in priority when it came to searching for Will vs El. In season 1 after Will went missing, Mike (+ the party) was told by the police to stay home and not interfere in the investigation. Mike disobeys and goes out (+ the party) to search for Will in the dark and rain. After meeting El, they use her as a weapon to continue searching for Will. After finding Will's "body" in the quarry, Mike switches on El and is mean and blames her for not telling the truth about Will. El then shows Mike through the walkie-talkie that Will is alive and Mike believes her (even after seeing Will's body, he has hope again that Will could be alive), he's nice to El again after this. Vs, when El goes missing at the end of S1 and going into S2, Mike believes she's dead (although not seeing a body), and doesn't go searching for her. He sees her through the window on the same night she disappeared, but he never goes out to look for her. The only thing he does for the whole year is try to talk to her through a walkie-talkie, but he never leaves his house to try and find her (even though he's seen proof of her being alive) while she's gone, Mike's priority is fully focused on Will and his possession. In season 3, Hopper threatens Mike to stay away from El (similarly to what he said about staying home and not looking for Will in season 1) and he immediately agrees and doesn't try to see her.

Mike has a lot of familial/platonic parallels with El's father figures than he does romantic, he's always paralleled with Brenner (with proof in season 4, the "what did you do?" / "what have you done?" scene at the rink) which is so bad and sad, and some scenes similarly with her and Hopper.

Gotta say it, Mike has looked at Will's lips multiple times (at least 4, off the top of my head) (which is 4 times more than he has with any of his other friends probably) and he barely does it with El. If it was a mistake during filming, they would've shot it again, bc they were obvious but they stayed in.

And just with the way Mike looks at Will compared to his other friends or even El, that boy looks more in love than the one canonically in love.💀

In both season 1 and season 2 (besides their first kiss and the snowball (which weren't planned originally, I believe)) Mike has never been the one leaning in or attempting to kiss El, he just stands and stares confused as she does all the work.

Mike has Will's art all over his basement from when they were children (and some in his room, I think?) But he throws away and crumples all of the letters he receives from his long distance girlfriend? Sus.

The difference in Mike's reactions to being broken up with romantically vs platonically in season 3. His face shows a sort of disgust and almost guilty when El breaks up with him, and his face is full of guilt and sadness when Will tells him he wanted to stay with him forever.

Mike was fruity af during his apology to Will in S4 Ep4 just saying.

Canonically Mike only smiles in pictures when Will is in them as well. (Photos in tags bc I'm at the limit😔)

It's been confirmed that Mike is clueless about Will's feelings for him, so I'm wondering why he was so affected by the 6 months away with only a couple phone calls that lead to him not even wanting to hug Will at the airport (even though he saw how happy and excited Will was to see him again) when he hugged Will perfectly fine at the end of S3 (even though they never actually resolved their first fight in the rain?) Hm. Sus.

Mike has Smalltown Boy on his (OFFICIAL) spotify playlist?? A song about "the need for gay men to flee small-town intolerance and pursue reinvention in the big city. " ???

Just a cute thing about Mike and Will beings friends since the first day of kindergarten (when they were 5 years old) and having the longest friendship out of everyone in the party.

Kind of iffy about this one but the song Tarzan Boy was playing at the roller rink (a song about being free and doing what you want) when Will, Mike, and El were at the table. (Probably not a lot of significance but still a thing).

From an outsiders perspective, Mike and El were not happy when they were skating at the rink together, from Will's perspective, they were super happy and laughing together while Will was left behind. This is shown when Angela walks into the rink with her friends, we see Mike and El from her pov and their faces are very stoic while they hold hands.

That's all I have for now, I've had these written in my notes for like 2 years lmao but please, if you've even gotten this far, let me know if anything looks inaccurate and I'll fix it:) and also feel free to add anything you've noticed as well! I'd love to see it.

[thestrangestthing89]

Agree with this. I think a big theme of this series is unbalanced relationships and people feeling pressured to date when they aren't ready to. Which is why I think Max and El bond easily over their boy problems. They are performing. They play the role that girls play when they are confused about their romantic relationship and blame the boys. It's framed as girlpower on the surface but if you look deeper there is something else going on. They don't know how to take responsibility for their own actions. Max and El have similar problems where they haven't seen a healthy romantic relationship so they have no clue how to be in one. And this is why I constantly say El is mostly to blame for her relationship problems with Mike and the same goes for Max with Lucas. People want to automatically blame the boy and are more comfortable doing so. But Max is the one who always breaks up with Lucas when he does something she doesn't like (and it sounds like these were very minor things). It's implied he lies about being busy so he can go hang out with the boys - a similar thing Mike does to avoid spending time with El. Neither of them would feel like they had to lie if Max and El were able to handle being in a relationship and accepting that their boyfriends are going to spend time away from them. Part of this is their age and immaturity, but a lot of it is their previous trauma and the fact that they should not be in relationships because they aren't ready to handle it. But I am glad you mentioned how Lucas's dad's advice wasn't great because I feel like people miss that a lot. Saying that "she's never wrong" and "I apologize and buy her whatever she wants" is TERRIBLE advice. Sometimes she is wrong. And buying gifts after fighting doesn't fix a fight. (And I'm not sure I would say the Sinclair's have a happy healthy relationship if this is how they communicate). It's why Mike is so confused when Lucas relays this information to him in S3 because he knows this isn't right. (He immediately tries to fix a fight with Will the correct way - by simply trying to talk to him and apologizing. And he does call Will out when they are fighting in S4 at the rink so I don't think either of them have a problem with addressing their relationship issues.) But I do think Lucas has a problem calling Max out. He doesn't think he's allowed to. I do think they are better positioned to address this next season and balance things out a little. But depending on what happens with Max, it may not happen. And I am ok with that even though I thought they were a lot better in S4 and never really cared for their relationship prior to that. I think Max's story has always been about other things outside of this relationship (UD related things). And even though I do think Lucas cares about her, I do think they were very young and it's ok if they aren't endgame. His story has a lot more to do with self-acceptance and being more confident imo and that doesn't necessarily have to include Max.

I think the show likes to play on the audience bias a lot. On the surface Max and El have their big girlpower moments and don't need the boys and you are supposed to side with them. But look deeper and neither of them treats the boys well. Along with this, Max and Nancy telling Mike that he's out of line for trying to stop El from stopping Billy was framed as feminism when it's not. Mike is the only one who realizes El is killing herself to save them and Max and Nancy think it's empowering when El is actually just scared and upset. Max doesn't pick up on this because she doesn't know El well and she just wants to support her new friend. I think these things will lead to an interesting story next season where everything gets flipped upside down. It appears that Lucas and Max are in a better place, but after everything that happened to her in S4, is a romantic relationship something she needs to have? They skipped over the friendship phase in the same way Mike and El did which is one of the reasons things don't work out for them either. And the show is beating us over the head with the idea that you need to be friends first before being in a romantic relationship. So if anything, I think lumax will end the series as friends.

time for my big lumax rantpost. I used to be way more of a shipper but upon reexamining some of my GA-era assumptions, I'm here to tell you why it sucks, and why I don't look forward to lumax endgame if it's the same lumax we've been getting.

lumax has fantastic potential, but needs lots of work to actually become the ship most of the fandom thinks it is.

I get the sense most on here consider lumax ST's darling perfect ship which is sullied by weak and/or racist writing. while I wouldn't argue at all that the writing does right by Lucas, I do think it's important to recognize lumax as an intentionally-written badly flawed relationship, NOT a poorly-written perfect relationship. (the writing for 5 has a lot to prove so we'll see)

lumax is obviously happening. no ending to Lucas's story makes sense other than him getting the girl. however, I don't like that from either character's standpoint.

from hers - Max is not a prize. and from his - Max is no prize.

Max is a pretty shitty girlfriend.

we've never seen her show Lucas any interest in learning anything about him. I can't remember a time she's complimented him, said anything nice about him, or done anything purely for his benefit. virtually all of their serious conversations have been about her, and the scant few that are sort of about him are inevitably just a lead-in to him offering support to her.

Lucas and Max's relationship - pre, during, and post dating - is 100% about what he can do for her. he's the one making 100% of the effort.

it seems like most of their interactions are him walking on eggshells trying to placate, reassure, or convince her, all for the reward of.... what. being allowed to continue existing near her? like yeah, she's a cool girl, but. that can't be it.

what good is getting the girl if the girl doesn't really offer anything?

. . .

through the seasons, semiquickly:

season 2

Lucas and Dustin both like Max, so they invite her trick or treating, offering to protect her from bullies and show her where the good candy is. in other words, the first Max / Lucas interaction is him offering something to benefit her. Max returns no appreciation or even response to the invite, yet still shows up to reap the benefits.

that pretty much sets the tone.

Max wants to be included, but that's a sensitive subject, so she puts on aloof airs to protect herself. it's an act, but nonetheless it's all Lucas receives.

the facade slips on multiple occasions though; Lucas is permitted to see her vulnerability, and we can see she's actually more desperate to make the connection than he is.

Dustin seeks Steve's manipulation tactics to use on Max, but Lucas wins her over by treating her like an equal and offering her genuine friendship.

he risks both his place in the party and his safety/life to include her, gives his undivided attention when she talks to him, asks questions that show his interest and concern, he reassures, uplifts and compliments her, and physically protects her.

in return, Max. uhh. well she does apologize for being a jerk, although she doesn't exactly stop, lmao. this is one of only two moments I can think of when Max reveals any regard for what Lucas thinks of her.

lumax is off-balance before it even starts, although s2 is when I think that dynamic is most permissible. since Max is a newcomer, Lucas has the advantage in many respects, and it makes sense for him to be the one extending a hand to her.

when Billy attacks Lucas for hanging out with Max, he could be gravely hurt if not for Steve taking the beating instead. Max joins in the momentary group hug but never says a word about this. (I suspect the writers mean for Max's bus apology to have proactively served as a veiled "sorry my stepbro is racist" but more felt needed in that moment.)

then they go to the dance and she kisses him and it's cute and everything is happy for ten whole seconds.

between 2 and 3

even though the summer of '85 is "the good days," this relationship is already careening downhill.

we learn that Max has dumped Lucas five times - such a regular occurrence that he takes it in stride and is well practiced at winning her back as a result.

unfortunately it's Lucas taking to heart the "happy wife happy life" policy from his dad that's set up lumax as something that seems to serve only Max. her awareness of the policy means she holds all the cards.

season 3

Max has secured her place in the party and the relationship, and now it's time for her to bring something to the table, but I honestly can't name one thing. it's still Lucas bending over backwards and Max sometimes being a bit of a jerk. (another act. we'll come back to this)

from the start of 3 we see an excessively secure Max and an obsequious Lucas. she doesn't show him any of the vulnerability that made her endearing in 2. they share fun moments, but we can infer that she doesn't treat him very well in ways that matter.

at one point she even plays mad just to watch him panic. you get the feeling this boy can never feel secure in his relationship. yeah she's just teasing, but do you think Lucas is allowed to tease too?

when El comes to Max for advice, she tells her that "boyfriends lie all the time" and this is before we see Lucas lie to her.

when Mike comes to Lucas for advice, he confidently schools him on how to get back in El's good graces by buying her a present - making clear he's been following his dad's advice all summer long and it's been working:

L: Dad? When Mom's mad at you, how do you make her not mad? C: First, I apologize. Then, I get your mother whatever she wants. L: Even when she's wrong? C: She's never wrong, son.

the mall confrontation is the first time we see Lucas really lie to Max, but even then, the girls don't actually have proof Nana isn't sick.

it's telling, actually, that Lucas's loyalty goes to Mike instead of Max in this moment. in s2 it was the other way around (Lucas pissed off the whole party by including her in the group and telling her the truth - a technically banishable offense). but now he's back to his s1 bros before hoes policy, and not only backs up but expands on Mike's lie. after dating almost a year, his loyalty to Max should be even stronger, but here we see the opposite. if Max had been at least as good a friend to him as Mike, I'm inclined to think he would at least have tried to be noncommittal here.

Max is so confident Lucas will have nothing on his mind but winning her back, as always - meanwhile who we actually see Lucas apologizing to is Will.

she may have had Lucas wrapped around her little finger all summer, but we're seeing that start to uncoil. if Lucas apologizes, it's offscreen.

when Billy tries to break out of the sauna to kill Max, Lucas slingshots him and body shields Max during the fight. next thing you know, Max is back to being cliquey with El in the bathroom (making fun of Mike even though he was the only one who did anything to save El's life?? girl you're being shitty to boyfriends that aren't even yours)

they seem to be a couple again by the end of 3, but the relationship is weakened...

between 3 and 4

..which sets the scene for how the two apparently drift when Max ends it once again. she's not playing this time - she uses the term "break up" instead of "dump" and Lucas has accepted that it's over.

depression makes it hard for Max to connect with him, but the way she treated him in 3 has likely also eaten away at his insistence on prioritizing her. if you push someone away over and over you can't be too surprised if they stay further away each time.

so Max withdraws socially and Lucas apparently doesn't go to his usual lengths to pursue her.

he's still making effort though! the "stalking" comment makes it clear he's been trying to approach her. we know he's been inviting her to his basketball games. him already knowing her favorite song as of 4x4 is more evidence of him taking an interest in her between seasons.

he clearly still cares a lot about Max, but good for him for pursuing his own hobbies and friendships as well.

season 4

Lucas finally asks Max to do something to support him for once (come to his game), but she shuts it down hard.

we know Max still cares about him, but that's just it - WE know. he doesn't. to his face, it's bristling rejection even while he literally begs for the chance to support her.

saving Max's life is a group effort, but Lucas knowing her favorite song is the key that saves her life, and it's only after that that she's friendly towards him again.

the only time I can recall Max expressing any concern for Lucas's wellbeing is when she asks if he's okay in 4x6 - and he only gets a few sentences to process Patrick's death before it's time for him to turn it into an apology to her. sigh.

Lucas is the only one of Max's friends to voice any objection to her suicide mission of a Vecna plan, and pitches for them to gamble a stranger's life instead. he once again risks his life to hang out in the Creel house with Max, personally taking on the huge responsibility of making sure she doesn't die.

Vol 2 Max finally shows Lucas some long-awaited appreciation ("you might have been there" and "I'm glad you're here") which is very nice to see.

I'm conflicted about the movie invite scene, but we'll talk about that later. textually: he asks her out, she accepts, it's totes adorbs.

unfortunately, Max being tranced out by the time Jason walks in means it's time for Lucas once again to get attacked by an older, stronger guy who's wrongly convinced he's a danger to her. (again not her fault, but kinda because of her)

everything goes sideways, Max gets Vecna'd, and Lucas holds her while she dies. we end on a bruised Lucas sitting loyally at Max's bedside, reading to her just in case she can hear it inside her coma.

Lucas hasn't been perfect but he has spent yet another season physically protecting and emotionally supporting Max at great personal expense, and with little appreciation and no support in return.

. . .

the movie doodle didn't fix lumax

Max has had an epiphany, but a change of behavior has scarcely begun. being nice isn't the same as making amends. they've resolved zero of the old issues, plus 4 (even if the plan had worked) has heaped a ton of new shit on both of them.

she's still a grieving, neglected, depressed and passively suicidal child of a triply-broken home. dating doesn't fix that. they already broke up once under the same conditions.

plus Max has new catastrophic emotional traumas, some of which which explicitly exacerbate those very issues. she has catastrophic injuries and disability to cope with (and this is a girl who withdraws under stress normally). with a shred of realism, she's waking up in less a mood for dating than ever.

Lucas has also taken on new traumas, between the basketball team stuff, getting beaten up and almost shot/strangled, and watching Max get Vecna'd and die. he already has a history of guilt about not being there for her enough, so he's going to have a lot more about failing her in that moment (definitely not his fault but he'll still feel bad) and will likely be even more focused on her.

to me, this all sounds like a recipe for the same old dynamic except worse than ever. if they get sleeping beauty'd directly back into lumax, it'll be a disservice to both characters.

. . .

now let's talk about why Max treats Lucas the way she does 🔬

she's not a conniving bitch, she's just a scared kid from a toxic home. that doesn't excuse her behavior but it does make it understandable.

Max CAN be a great friend. she's just not to Lucas.

Max absolutely showers El with the good qualities she'll barely show Lucas. in fact I could loosely say Max is to El what Lucas is to Max.

Max is suspicious and disparaging towards Lucas, even while trusting that he can be counted upon to grovel. meanwhile El never apologizes for intentionally hurting Max both physically and emotionally, yet the moment El acknowledges her (only because she wants help), Max is instantly forgiving, kind, gentle, caring, generous and supportive towards her.

she throws her loyalty behind a friend of 1 afternoon over her boyfriend of a year who's been the only person in Hawkins to show her any true kindness and emotional connection.

if Max was half the friend to Lucas that she is to El, she'd be a decent girlfriend. why isn't she?

we can name a few reasons why Max IS so nice to El, but why she ISN'T to Lucas is a separate question. kindness isn't zero-sum.

she told us why. boyfriends lie.

and it's ANY boyfriend, not just hers. Nana's sick? more like Mike's a lying piece of shit! Suzie from camp? fake! Dustin's obviously lying! the only one of the boys Max has never accused of lying is Will - the only one who's been single the whole time.

just. the state of being a boyfriend (or even just liking a girl is close enough), makes any boy automatically a liar.

Max believes "friend" and "boyfriend" are mutually exclusive

"Friends don't lie!" "Yeah, well, boyfriends lie all the time." <- it's all right there.

back in 2 when Lucas was her friend, she was more open and trusting. she gave him the benefit of the doubt that monsters were real and he knew a girl with magic powers. starting to date flipped the switch, and now she doesn't trust him about mundane stuff.

now they're not friends, they're boyfriend/girlfriend, and she expects to be treated in a whole different way, including all the baggage that comes with romantic relationships in her mind.

what baggage?

Max's childhood is full of examples of awful, manipulative men and abusive, broken relationships.

her dad: I'd only be speculating about why her parents' marriage failed, but in 2 Max misses California because her dad is still there, then by 4 acts like it's doubtful he can even be tracked down for delivery of what's basically her suicide letter. it's clear she desired a relationship with her dad but was abandoned. Neil: abusive asshole who rules the household with an iron fist. I'd be shocked if he hasn't abused Susan, and see little reason he wouldn't do it in front of Max (after all, we see him verbally and physically abuse his first wife in front of his son, in a bad fight over suspected lies/infidelity). in his grief over Billy, Neil and Susan have "bad fights" and he leaves the family. he's not missed, but it's still a second abandonment by a father figure. Billy: Max's peer example of guys in relationships: a sleazy, two-faced asshole who treats girls like trash and completely changes his persona to manipulate them for sex or whatever else he wants (Max appears to be all too aware of his sex life and is disgusted). abandonment issues with him too: a good relationship with a big brother would've meant the world to her, but he rejected and probably abused her for years; her letter at his grave reads "ever since you left" - same word she used for Neil.

Max desperately hopes Lucas is an exception to the rule, but these are the behaviors she would naturally fear from any guy she dates.

Max is especially terrified of being abandoned (and that she deserves it)

to be abandoned over and over can naturally leave a kid wondering if it's their fault, if this is the treatment they deserve.

Lucas is overall quite honest, and there's not an abusive bone in his body. the most realistic one of Max's fears to apply to him is that someday he'll leave her, too.

and that's the worst fear Vecna chooses to voice in Lucas's form: realizing he's been wrong about her, that she's fundamentally bad and he's glad she's going to be killed. a gutting abandonment from the guy she most wants to trust.

Vecna-Susan also tells Max that she deserves what's going to happen to her, that she's "broken everything" and that her letters can't make things right. because he's in full Vecna mode when he says it, I just took those as very general condemnations at first. but they hurt even worse when I remember they're still coming from "Susan" - revealing that Max feels she has broken her family.

she wanted Billy to die, and she figures Neil left because Billy died, so that's two of the abandonments being "her fault". if that's true, Max would also feel responsible for destroying her mom's life - having cost her her marriage, home, and financial security.

in her addictions Susans has, in an emotional sense, abandoned Max just like all her other family members - and Max fears she deserves it. how desperate she was for this hug... :(

anyway, back to lumax: let's reexamine those s3 dumpings

what exactly did Lucas even do? we never find out.

on first watch, I took "boyfriends lie" at face value and assumed Lucas got caught fibbing. but that doesn't fit so well.

he's maybe the party member most invested in "friends don't lie". honesty to his friends is a pillar of his character. again, he caused friction in 2 because he so strongly prioritized honesty to Max. to assume based on one line from an unreliable narrator that he randomly became a huge liar over the summer is unfair.

via their counseling of Mike and El, Lucas and Max tell us what's been going on with lumax

Max tells El:

He'll come crawling back to you in no time, begging for forgiveness. I guarantee him and Lucas are totally wallowing in self-pity and misery right now like "ohh, I hope they take us back!"

I think we all clocked that one: Max thinks that because El followed her technique, Mike will come crawling back - because Lucas has come crawling back to her several times now.

but I haven't seen much discussion about how the spying scene (which "he'll come crawling back" is paired with) shows Lucas assuring Mike that he's been dumped for an unfair and illogical reason because that's what Max has done to him several times now.

M: I just don't understand what I did to deserve this. L: Nothing. Nothing. That's my whole point. You are the victim here. Stop asking rational questions. M: I know, I know, you're right. Because women act on emotion and not logic. L: Precisely. It's a totally different species.

Max is pissed. but has she been irrational, acting on emotion and not logic, and dumping him for no apparent reason all summer? signs point to yes.

and I understand Lucas saying this. it's not pure misogyny out of nowhere; he's been told that his mother expects gifts and apologies even when wrong, Max acts that way too, and now so apparently does El. all of his examples concur that this is just how women in relationships are. (Charles Sinclair how many relationships will your advice destroy lmao)

both Max and Lucas are bringing preconceptions from home.

Max acts this way on purpose

I don't think she's dumped him over truly nothing (although that's how it looks to him). I'm thinking she blows real, minor missteps out of proportion.

any time Lucas does something slightly insensitive, it looks like the first red flag to her, and instead of communicating in a constructive way, she just throws up this "boys aint shit" force field and dumps him. of course she doesn't truly want to be rid of him, she's just sorta snapping the leash.

I think Max knows what she's doing. I think she wants to keep Lucas always on his back foot, because the relationship isn't as scary if she feels like she holds all the power.

she's always trying to cover up fear/sorrow with anger, because anger gives an illusion of control. and she's been conscious of that anger, and the fact that it's unfair to Lucas, since the beginning - that's what she apologized for on the bus. "I guess I'm angry too, and I'm sorry."

she was mature enough at 13 to see the error in her behavior, but still not mature enough by 15 to fix it. every season has just been a slightly different flavor of "leave before you get left".

so, that's my take on Max's relationship behavior. but again, explanations aren't excuses. Lucas deserves to be treated well, and that's not happening.

what needs to happen?

simply maturing more will help them both a lot. being 15 is a terrible condition in of itself.

I don't see Lucas dumping Max's ass, but she should take her own advice before the relationship continues: explain herself and fix the garbage parts of her behavior.

before Max can be the girlfriend Lucas deserves, she needs a substantial period of physical and emotional healing.

she needs renewed connections with her friends and family, and a lot of general growth in the area of communication and processing her feelings.

in regards to Lucas, she needs to work on her trust issues, and learn to extend him the treatment warranted by his behavior, not the behavior she fears from others. she needs to learn that "friend" and "girlfriend" aren't mutually exclusive, that real friendship is the key to their relationship, and is a two-way street.

any Billy racism/assault acknowledgement would be better years late than never, especially if grieving Billy continues to be a focus in front of Lucas.

Lucas could also use a little work

the relentless positivity doesn't serve Max well. often it turns out to be empty reassurances which make her feel let down (so, a soft version of the lies she fears). she let him know in 4x4 that this hurts her, but he kept doing it for the rest of the season.

but the big one is that "happy wife happy life" doesn't serve him well, and rewarding unfair treatment perpetuates the problem. yes, the ability to compromise, swallow pride, and be the bigger person are healthy parts of a relationship, as well as the willingness to extend grace to your partner/friend when they're struggling. but it always being on one designated person is a recipe for dissatisfaction and resentment.

Lucas should voice to Max that he, too, has struggles and needs support. I'd like to see him pursue outside interests unapologetically.

no, this isn't an exhaustive list, and I don't expect to see everything fixed at once, or explicitly processed onscreen. but I sure hope we get some evidence of change, and that this has all been part of an arc.

for instance, I'd love for the final lumax reconciliation to be Max asking Lucas to take her back.

I kind of hope not to see them officially together until the very end. in fact I'd so much rather see ST end on a good Max / Lucas friendship with an implied romantic future than jump back to the status quo.

l don't want to see lumax until it's a new lumax, based on real, reciprocal friendship.

[wibble-wobbegong]

Mike Hostage Theory

i just wanted to make an official post with my view on this theory bc i have a very specific vision

edit: i’ve made a post with some more evidence here! :)

For anyone who doesn’t know, the Mike hostage theory is essentially the idea that Mike will be taken hostage by Vecna in season 5.

Here’s my reasoning for why I think this is a possibility for season 5:

- Mike has managed to ruin all of Vecna’s plans since season 1 and each season he develops a better understanding of the UD and is able to formulate plans that take direct action in preventing Vecna from achieving his goal. a short list that shows this would be:

s1: Mike discovers what the upside down is and relays all the information he’s gathered from El, giving the rest of the cast an understanding of what’s actually happening. Plans to rescue will spring from Mike’s information

s2: Mike is the only one who actually understands what’s happening with Will AND he takes the lead in creating the plan to save Will. Second only to Will, he has the most in depth understanding of how the mind flayer works which he demonstrates in episode 8 where he explains everything he knows to Dustin who then makes the analogy to the mind flayer in DND. He suggests putting Will to sleep, isolating him to try and break him out of the possession, getting the mind flayer out of Will before the gate completely closes, and distracting the demodogs by lighting the graveyard on fire.

s3: After learning about the mind flayer’s return, he comes to the conclusion that the mind flayer won’t die when it’s expelled from someone and that they have to figure out how to actually kill the mind flayer (though they never ended up doing this). After learning about Billy being a potential host, he mentally made a complete plan of how to know whether he was a host or not. He barely had to think about it after they confirmed Billy was acting suspicious, he knew how to test him with the sauna and executed that plan in the same day after coordinating with the rest of the party. Mike is still pretty in touch with how the mind flayer works when interacting with its hosts

s4: Vecna very specifically timed his attacks so they would begin the day Mike left. He was counting on Mike not being able to get involved and it making him more successful, which is what happened. He thought he had Mike completely out of the picture and yet he still managed to get involved with Vecna’s plans when he was finally going to kill El. Mike’s monologue was mostly a failure, but it did boost El’s memories with Max in a way. Either way, Mike still managed to get in the way even with Vecna counting on him being on the opposite side of the country.

This would give Vecna 1 major motive to keep Mike in the UD with him. It allows him to keep an eye on Mike and eliminate the possibility of his interference.

- Mike is incredibly close with vecna’s true target; Will. Vecna needs to bring Will back into the UD again to follow through with whatever plan he’s been trying to follow through with since season 1. Does he want Will to join him? Does he want to turn Will into an asset to the hivemind? Does he want to possess Will himself and obtain his abilities? There’s no way to know for sure, but no matter what he needs to lure Will into a situation where they can talk alone. Vecna and Will are still connected so Vecna is definitely aware that Will’s feelings for Mike are way too strong for Will to not come to rescue him. He’s likely going to use Will’s emotions to his advantage.

- Mike’s perspective needs to be told and having him live through a long-term psychic curse from Vecna would allow us to understand what Mike’s fears really are. I think they could use a situation like this to tell Mike’s perspective of the story in a way that’s reminiscent of how El had an isolated story in season 2.

- Mike has a very strong tendency to isolate himself when he can’t cope with things and there is going to be a lot weighing on him, emotionally, in season 5; Eddie’s death, breaking up with El, Will is in danger again, still believing that his feelings are unreciprocated, and he’s probably gonna be expected to take a leadership role again. Everyone is going to be focused on dealing with the apocalypse during the two year time gap so I could see Mike spending a lot of time alone when he’s not working with the party which gives Vecna an opportunity to kidnap him silently before starting the next phase of his attack.

note: maybe will discovers his powers before the time skip and has to spend a lot of the two year time gap practicing with el, though he hangs out with mike when he can

How I think this could advance multiple plot lines!

Mike’s Personal Arc

I covered this a little bit, but if mike were to go under a long-term psychic connection with vecna, we could watch his point of view for a lot of the major moments in different seasons that we were denied his perspective. It would be an opportunity to finally reveal mike’s genuine feelings, fears, and regrets to the audience in a way that wouldn’t involve other characters discovering this about him. Personally, Mike would finally be able to emotionally advance past a lot of his repression as he’s finally forced to face it head on over and over. He might break down at first, and he should, but the longer he stays there the more he’ll learn to deal with those fears. I’m going to tie this into another plot line, but him being able to walk through his emotions would demonstrate a new emotional maturity he has been lacking due to his relationship with El and his incessant need to be normal. He might learn to hide from these things that are torturing him by going into happy memories, which will force him to accept that he wasn’t happy in his relationship with El and that he is a happier person when he’s with Will and his friends doing the things he loves (I’m sure he’s aware of this to some extent during s4). Vecna won’t be present in his mind (explained later), so Mike will be able to walk through these happy memories safely and reminisce on those moments which will continue to expand his perspective, this time from a positive light.

Will’s Personal Arc

Will is going to have a Hero Arc in season 5, it’s been foreshadowed since season 2. He’s finally escaping his repeated victimization and fighting back, protecting who he loves, and avenging everything that Vecna stole from him. He doesn’t need to be Mike’s heroine to go through this arc, but it would be more impactful for Will to rescue the boy who saved him time and time again, the boy who always protected him, the boy he’s in love with. It’ll add more emotional depth to Will’s story in season 5, not that protecting the others isn’t emotionally strong, but it’ll give him a certain level of empowerment that he couldn’t achieve by saving anyone else. Knowing that he has the strength to do what he’s admired Mike for for so long would be fantastic for his view of himself. If he’s going to fight off Vecna with love, he’ll need to develop some self love too, which can come from finding strength in himself and knowing Mike reciprocates his feelings (Mike makes him feel like he isn’t a mistake, but he feels like a mistake for being gay. When Mike confesses it’ll make Will feel even less like a mistake).

The Mike/Will Role Reversal

There have been tons of hint throughout season 4 that hint at Mike and Will having reversed roles in season 5. For one, Mike has a ton of death tags (ex. being compared directly to romeo, dying in the opening DND game, etc.) that won’t lead to an actual death. When Mike disappears randomly, there might be people who assume he’s dead the same way they did with Will in season 1, but if we know anything about Will it’s that he’d never give up on Mike just like how Mike never gave up on him. This is also going to give them an even deeper understanding of each other as they’ve now both been the searcher and the rescued.

Finding Max

So, I’m going to be assuming two things for this part of the theory.

1. Mike is traveling throughout memories in his own head but those memories are manifesting in Vecna’s mind.

2. Vecna absorbed Max’s consciousness, as he describes being able to absorb his victims, and Max is now able to traverse Vecna’s mind and go back to her own memories as she pleases.

If both of those are true, then Mike may very well run into Max once he starts hiding away in happier memories. To be clear, I don’t want nor think Mike will be the one to free her consciousness: that has to be left up to Lucas and El somehow. Mike could be the one to discover that she is alive and start considering the possibility of bringing her back. When he’s freed, this is information he can give to the party. That ties into his role as an information gatherer and it’ll likely lead to him planning a way to get her back, though it’ll be Lucas and El carrying the beef of that plan.

As for which memory they’d run into each other in, I think it has to be that scene in the gym from season 2. It’s pretty much the only memory between them where they’re both happy and together that’s been shown on screen. It would be a good way to reaffirm their friendship, too, if they’re both visiting that memory. We see Mike shooting her concerned glances when her nose bleeds and she wrote him a letter despite their dynamic being shown as rivals more than friends, so this is a way to expand the depth of their relationship and show that they are friends and they do care about each other in a way that’s yet to be displayed.

Romantic Byler

Can’t talk about Mike in season 5 without factoring byler into it!

As far as how this theory plays into byler edging towards becoming canon, I think this is where the audience would finally be being told that Mike is in love with Will in every aspect except the actual words. This is where “show don’t tell” is gonna take it’s extreme. We’re going to be going on a journey with Mike through memory lane of all the good and the bad, which Will is inevitably a major part of both of those types of memories. We’ll see Mike’s reactions to things, which we aren’t shown throughout the show very often after season 1. There is going to be an undeniable love for Will shown from Mike’s perspective.

Then, with Will being the one to rescue Mike, we’re also going to get Mike realizing Will needs him even when he isn’t providing something for Will. He’s going to understand that Will wants him around. A more emotionally aware Mike + a single Mike + a Mike who feels loved for who he is by Will = a potential confession.

All around, I just think that Mike getting held hostage through a long-standing curse could add a lot to the story. I also wrote this while having not slept in about 2 days, so please feel free to add onto the things I missed :)

[castleclerics]

byler have already been romantically involved theory

(or kissed or had little moments but regardless they’re both too scared to speak of it again)

gonna be adding on to my headcannon about mike and will kissing before but the audience not knowing yet which i’m starting to think could be possible.

let’s start with the rain fight scene

one of the first times i ever watched it (a few days after s3 for ref) i literally thought some lines implied that they’ve had a thing before/kissed. and this was only when i knew will was gay i never even considered him liking mike at this point or them ever being together which is super interesting. so, going off my very first instinct of this scene i’m gonna break it down.

first off watching this scene with this perspective in mind kind of makes so much sense it feels like everything falls into place. also realizing this is just another part of their miscommunication trope.

“—so you can swap spit with some stupid girl?”

will thought they were on the same page in their relationship which is why he’s so confused as to why mike wants to do nothing but makeout with el all the time. he thought they were in this together even if they unofficially were together romantically.

“it’s not my fault you don’t like girls”

mike basically saying “it’s not my fault you didn’t move on from that one time we kissed. i moved on you were supposed to too, i’m not actually gay that was me just experimenting i’m not actually gay like you, you got the wrong idea” his insecurities are showing, he’s trying to keep on a normal not gay path, (even though we all know he’s never stopped liking will) probably because him being vulnerable with will before freaked him out because he realized his feelings for him we’re all too real.

will’s face captures a huge range of emotions but i do remember thinking there was an element of disbelief. especially in terms that he couldn’t believe mike was leaving him alone in all of this and that now he has to go through his queerness and love for his friend alone, when mike possibly told him otherwise.

“but we’re not kids anymore”

possibly implying that them kissing or showing their feelings for one another was just a “kid thing” and now since they’re growing up more will should be on the same page as him.

“i mean what did you think really? that we were never gonna get girlfriends? that we were just gonna sit in my basement and play games for the rest of our lives?”

who wants to bet mike and will agreed at some point that this would be their life together, hence why it’s talked about so much in the show. but now mike is backtracking. and that’s why will goes “yeah, i guess i did. i really did.” as in “i did because you’re the one who TOLD me this is how it would be for us” especially with his passive aggressive facial expression which completely explains why he would make that face and why the delivery of that line implied they’ve discussed before that this is what they both wanted, or something along those lines. it honestly doesn’t make much sense if it’s not because of this. also damn this has strong brokeback vibes. like they literally reflect the character’s struggles i’m convinced they definitely got inspo from this scene https://youtu.be/KVK6yLqY54w

like i said in my headcanon, the roller rink argument is also really telling. from the panic in mike’s voice and face when he says “what” to will straight up asking what they are to mike’s “we’re friends! we’re friends.” again, mike being like “god stop getting the wrong idea also stop digging so deep i’m trying to appear straight and you’re ruining it for me.”

now let’s look at their POVS in s4 quickly:

the first couple times mike talks about el to will it seems pretty normal but after that it’s almost like he’s testing the waters, to see will’s reaction, trying to gage if will feels anything for him at all anymore especially after their fights even though they made up. and since will keeps pushing for mike to be with el he’s convinced he has nothing there for him anymore.

will thinks he has a chance of something more being there between them again when he grabs the painting because they literally just flirted, but will slowly realizes over the roadtrip that mike is still hung up on el. that’s why he was selfless because he for the final time gets confirmation that mike doesn’t have any feelings whatsoever for him anymore. maybe that’s why it’s extra painful because they we’re so close to actually being together at one point but now will thinks he’s just lost that forever.

here’s when they flirt for ref. also just wanna say the way mike says and emphasizes “best friends” sounds like he’s implying something more lmao. also i’ve always thought it was interesting how they both are literally comfortable with flirting with each other and now i’m realizing if i’m right about this theory it’s because they’ve done it before. it’s like they’re used to it. we as an audience just don’t know that yet.

so, with all this in mind, what if when they actually confess it’s less of a “i’ve loved you this whole time” and more of a “i never stopped loving you.” LIKEEE

it also just feels like we’re purposefully left out of the loop of something more happening between them like if you watch all their scenes with that perspective it feels extremely plausible.

feel free to add onto this i’m curious if any of you can catch anything else i haven’t said i’ve been theorizing about other stuff for days on end my brain is mush at this point 😭😭 this is also one of my less srs theories and i haven’t checked for holes either bc honestly i cannot be bothered to think anymore about this theory but still !!

[you-usuratonkachi]

I still don’t get why El should break up with Mike,she looks happy with him :/

For me the Duffers can’t write,that’s it

I would have agreed on S3, but S4 brought up the issue of Mike being unable to tell her he loves her and how she feels like he's just idolizing her for her powers and by how that whole issue was handled, it feels to me like his respose wasn't satisfactory in the slightest.

Not only was he unable to tell her he loved her as she expressed her doubts and cried in front of him when she was without powers, when he does tell her he loves her it's prompted by someone else, during a moment of emotional stress, quoting someone else, STILL talking about her powers, when she has her powers back. Not to mention, the whole speech is meant to urge her to fight.

That monologue didn't solve the problem AT ALL. If anything, it confirmed her fears.

Which is why, if I was her, I would break up with him. Because he doesn't seem to understand the problem and that alone would make me feel like he doesn't really love me for ME.

Not to mention his monologue paralleled what papa told her before he died. Since her whole character arc is to leave behind everything that trapped her in her life, to finally find herself, by the way they framed the whole situation with Mike, it also feels like she should leave Mike behind too.

I wouldn't be saying this if they handled S4 differently, but right now? They are not very good together.

I mean, Lumax had that super cute, super simple but meaningful scene where Max laughs after a long time and Lucas goes "I missed it. Your laugh" and it's so powerful because you can tell he SEES her, missed her, they aren't even shown half as much but their relationship got such good development.

Can you imagine S4 Mike telling that to El? Not once did he mention a personality trait or soemthing about her that didn't relate to her powers. He romanticized their first meeting (we see that when he says "It's not fate" too) and talked extensively about what she can do. And when it came to actually talk about who she is, he could only say she's a superhero. Which ties in with the whole am i a monster? doubt she had. Except she already solved that issue. She knows she's not a monster, she left the real monster behind when papa died. She didn't need Mike to tell her that, in fact, he had already told her that when they fought the first time. She needed Mike to love her for something OTHER than that.

He didn't.

He didn't mention one single thing that wouldn't make her doubt his feelings.

The issue she had with him at the beginning of the season? Still there. The difference between his arguments during their first fight and his monologue is just that he added "i love you" (prompted).

So yes, if I was El i wouldn't be happy with that. I would only feel like there's no return. He failed her. Romantically.

She's happy with him because she does love him, but the point here is: does that suffice to keep the relationship going? Is their relationship what she wants? And I think at this point it's not. It keeps falling short compared to her expectations. She feels like she has to be someone "cool" to keep him interested (she lied about her situation when she didn't have her powers).

So yeah, I think to fully find herself and her value beside her powers, she should break up with Mike.

I'm not saying Mike is a bad person (well he wasn't good either this season but that's beside the point), I'm saying he has overly romantizised circumstances (based on what he said) and his inferiority complex doesn't help their situation. They bring each other down without really intending to.

And that's not good for her. She's working on herself, but he needs to work on himself too, so right now they are onto two different pages, and that would most naturally lead to a break up to me.

[hazmatazz]

why hollow moon by arlington reminds me of byler/will byers soo much

long post + i accidentally posted a draft of this early so if you saw that...no you didn't

[lyrics] [youtube] [spotify]

i need to qualify: i love death of the author + this song has no actual connection to stranger things this is all just me brainrotting

first:

this just reminds me of the scenes were Mike is inraptured by Will in the sun. exmaple, the van scene: (gif stealing <3)

next:

a LOT of thoughts about this chunk so i'm going to go rapid fire

"And I won't let you step away"

Mike won't let Will rip the band-aid off

"Your lipstick's melting in the shade"

the closest thing i can come to putting something to this line is will's painting (lipstick) and how he doesn't give it until it's at a point something bad happens (melting in the shade)

(clarifying: if will had given the painting earlier i don't think he would have felt the need to say it was from el. but because he waited so long he was put in a situation where he thought lying was the best option. meaning that because he waited so long, his gifting process resulted in something he didn't want originally)

"Imagine every day

You'll drift and float and fade away

Crashed into the men involved"

while it wasn't on purpose (in fact he probably tried to avoid it), Will drifted away from Mike

i'm a "Mike tried to call Will after they moved" truther so i'm imagining mike being so crushed over Will not calling him

ALSO "crashed into" implies that both parties were harmed in the process which.. yeah??

"And now you're doing what you're told"

so in S3, Will kinda obviously didn't like Mike and El being together (see the rain fight)

but in S4, when Mike goes to Will for help, he seems to support their relationship and try to help it. "now you're doing what you're told" now he's supporting their relationship (even if he doesn't like it)

(adding on, i think this is a negative thing and that mike was wishing for a S3 will reaction telling him to break up)

"This light has got to go"

See the first chunk of this post about Will being a sun

"They stripped you naked head to toe

You never made enough in time

To live a better life"

OUGH ok. i heavily associate this with the day Will went missing

the Demogorgon goes after Will when he's alone, stripping him of any safety brought from his friends or family. In the next scene we see of Will, he doesn't have that shotgun. Not having that weapon, again, strips him of his safety

2nd part. he rolled a 7, which was not enough to save him from the demogorgon. and he ran out of time (Karen calling them to leave) to possibly find a way to make more to be safe

3rd part if Will hadn't been kidnapped he would have avoided a lottt of trauma

also for that last part. if will had been safe the party wouldn't have found el. now i'm SO glad they found el, but if el and mike never met they wouldn't have dated and it's possible will would be happier (again, i'm still happy they know el. just something to point out for this)

"Your broken heart means everything

To me, alright? Alright?"

ignore how they used the wrong your

Will's heart has been through a lot of shit. upside down trauma, "unrequited" love, bullying and abuse for being gay, etc

but Mike still adores him

also i imagine, even sketched, mike saying this to will. so. brainrot

Next!

"Cause I'm still beating like a drum"

either could be because they're still alive through everything or how despite the distance they had, they still have feelings

"Two roses in the sun

And now it's swiftly coming down

Yeah can't you hear the sound

That thunderous sound"

ok. let's get the flower part over w because we've all seen these

now the sun in this situation?

bright? check. will and henry parallels? check. "swiftly coming down"? he'll get there eventually, check. thunderous sound? fucking duh? check

next!

this mostly is giving s2 possession

"Twisty little renegade"

"renegade" is someone who deserts or betrays an organization, country, or set of principles. and sure, Will was possessed, but it was still betraying who he was and betraying The Party in some form.

"Only worth what you've been paid"

kinda off topic but the closest i have is Mike having self worth issues

"Your life is gonna change

You'll make it work, you'll be ok"

through all the negatives, Will has been able to get through them. expect the best for s5, he deserves for his life to change

also imagining mike telling will that

"Knocked into the bitter cold

And now you're thinking on your own

This fire's bound to glow"

when Will was possessed he was cold because the Mindflayer/Vecna liked it cold

After he got away from the possession, he started thinking on his own

Fire's bound to glow = Nancy burning the Mindflayer out of Will

"And keep your children from the road"

I think Joyce learned to be extra cautious with leaving Will alone :)

Also S1 when Karen wouldn't let Mike and Nancy out of the house when Will went missing

"They never had to raise a family

Entire lives"

something something Mike's family is mediocre, Will's dad mostly didn't raise him (thank god), the victims not having a life to raise a family. do whatever

"And their bleeding hearts mean everything

To me, that's right, that's right"

first thoughts were always about how Mike (and Will) care about the party and how they all have issues. you would also go down "pity for the victins" route again

lastly (because the rest of the song is repeating)

here's where the least of my thoughts went to so sorry if this is bullshit

"Do away now with words"

you know how byler often communicates without words

"You've had enough"

they fight...a lot. i'm specifically looking at the rain fight where the summer bubbles over

last lines either about the night will got kidnapped or about the rain fight/other fights. shit y'know

so sorry if this is jumbled, i don't do this offen (done only one thing similar to this before)

[shreya11111]

For some reason I’m having byler doubts lol someone on twitter brought up how Mike was acting like he didn’t care when El broke up with him yet he was upset and chased after Will to apologize to him after they fought and the Melvins started replying with the blank makes you crazy scene where Mike apologizes to her and says he only acted the way he did because he was jealous of Max and that being broken up was hard and he has never felt this way with anyone before. I know they get interrupted and they still to this day have not had another heart to heart but for some reason it started to make me doubt again. Especially since we never got a scene in s3 with Mike getting to actually apologize to Will. The macaroni shippers use this as “evidence” for maroon 5 being endgame. Sorry if I’m being negative I just wanted your opinion on this :)

hi! absolutely no problem at all, and i’m so so sorry that it’s taken me literally forever to respond to this :(

so, let’s break down your ask:

first, let’s start with “Melvins started replying with the blank makes you crazy scene where Mike apologizes to her and says he only acted the way he did because he was jealous of Max and that being broken up was hard and he has never felt this way with anyone before”.

whenever we analyze mike’s actions and/or dialogue, i feel it is very important to keep in mind the theme of forced conformity. this is was quite prominent in season 3 but was further hammered in throughout season 4. 

mike’s behavior from s3-s4 especially elucidate this theme. you can tell that he is not being himself; rather he is doing what he thinks he is expected to do or saying what he thinks he is expected to say.

regarding “blank makes you crazy,” we know for a fact that mike was only saying it because that’s what he’d seen and thought it was also expected from him. i mean, he literally said that!

so, it’s very probable that the rest of what he says is based on how he thinks he should feel, and not necessarily how he actually feels. 

the “being jealous of max” might be how he actually feels, but not for the reasons he implied to el. i feel if he has strong platonic feelings for el, it’s still very possible he was a bit jealous of max because he felt he was replaced as her friend/someone who was always there for her.  

the line when he said he “never felt that way before” with el honestly felt rather cliché to me. it’s something straight out of a cheesy romance movie, and i feel that was kind of the point. it sounds not very genuine, in my opinion. rather, it sounds like something he thought he was supposed to say and not the way he actually felt.

now, let’s talk about “Especially since we never got a scene in s3 with Mike getting to actually apologize to Will. The macaroni shippers use this as “evidence” for maroon 5 being endgame.”

i feel like a lot of people tend to forget about the 3 month time-skip that happened at the end of season 3. we don’t know what happened during then; it’s very possible that mike apologized to will during that time. however, i only wish that they will show a flashback of it in season 5 :/ i don’t like the way the fight was never brought up again post-season-3 (and tbh was barely even mentioned in s3).

and also, i’m sorry, but i find it so funny how moonshines will say “mike not properly apologizing to will after their big fight is proof milwaukee is endgame!!” as if they don’t just wish their ship had the amount of angst as ours do. i mean, they literally want a monorail rain kiss for christ’s sake😭

so yeah, i really wouldn’t worry if i was you! byler is 100% endgame, i’m sure of it. there’s so much proof!! everything will work out :)

tysm for your ask and again, i’m so freaking sorry for answering your ask after literal years🥲 here’s a hug as compensation 🫂 :,) i hope you have a great day!

[andiwriteordie]

Okay which stranger things ship do you see as “champagne problems”?

Bc i can’t stop applying it to the ships.

Lumax, from max’s pov, but they work their shit out later. Stancy, from nancy’s pov, but there were never SUPPOSED to be. Joyce/Bob, from Joyce’s pov, except she almost felt ready to take that extended hand… and then he was taken from her. Jopper, from both their povs depending on the time, because i feel like season 3 joyce is in a better place with HERSELF but grieving, and hopper views himself as a curse but he isn’t the one doing the rejecting. Chrissy/Jason, if Chrissy’d gotten to live, except we’re all cheering for her inwardly even tho she’s sad ab it at first.

& “right where you left me”???? Idkidkidk my brain just keeps saying look look look—first it goes lumax from lucas’ pov, then it goes nancy & barb (espec. season2 nance) & obvi byler i could see interpretations for either pov but mike jsut—works so much better for him post season 3 idk. El & her dad… el & henry.

Basically—talk to me ab tswift song associations w/ stranger things bc i can’t get them out of my head 😓

OOH A TAYLOR SWIFT X STRANGER THINGS ASK MY FAVORITE.

every single one of those couples absolutely fits champagne problems, for all the reasons you just listed! i don't think there's necessarily one couple who fits this story the best, since the song does ends with the couple being broken up and the narrator experiencing at least a little bit of regret (as shown in her self-deprecation through the song).

i think of every couple, lumax probably fits this the best? especially with s4 max's mental health struggles being such a large part of why they broke up. it doesn't seem like a far reach for me to imagine those two in a future where max is still struggling with her mental health and does choose to break things off with lucas again, simply because of what happened with the upside down and also honestly max doesn't have the best home life and has grown up learning defense mechanisms that make her more prone to try and run away (see her dumping lucas a lot in the in between of s2-s3 and ofc the pre s4 break up) rather than deal with those problems head on. not trying to drag max because she is my girl and i love her with everything i am, but i think that's just part of how she's grown up and how she tries to protect herself.

that said, i don't think lucas would ever give up on her. s4 shows us that and shows us how he is trying to reach out to her and believes he should've done more. so, i think where they diverge from champagne problems' narrative is that the narrator's love interest isn't going to find someone new. instead, that love interest is going to keep working and keep holding on, because the love is real between them, even in spite of the mental health issues and such!

also again, agree with your rwylm analyses! but my first gut instinct though with this song is to think about will, actually! rwylm tells us a story about a narrator who was blind-sided by the loss of this relationship and then ends up staying "frozen" and stuck in that past, unable to move on from it. obviously, like i just said the song is in the context of a relationship, but pulling back a little bit more, i think the theme of it can fit will in general. will's trauma has left him frozen and stuck in a sense. everybody moves on, but will... will stays there. his childhood was robbed from him first with the kidnapping then with the possession, and we see how in s3 he is so desperately trying to hold onto that childhood while everyone else moves on without him.

digging deeper into the byler implications here, obviously this happens in tandem with the break in will and mike's friendship, where will again feels stuck because of his ud related experiences but also because of his sexuality, but mike? mike's moving on. he's found a beautiful girl who is a superhero, and he obviously loves her and cares about her. i mean come on. "if our love died young, i can't bear witness" screams the rain fight to me, and that image just hurt me very deeply ok.

"you left me no choice but to stay here forever" has a twofold meaning then. it's directed at both henry (the abuser who robbed will of his childhood) but also then at mike (the boy who will loves who has seemingly moved on past the need for will).

and uh... yep. i could go into more detail probably, but that's a little summary of my thoughts!

[kocch]

rambling over Mike (and El) as a boyfriend

don’t take this as *hate* or slander of Mike because he is literally my son, and i’m sure someone shared this theory already in the byler tag before but who knows when i read it/can’t find the post... 

anyways, Mike as a boyfriend to El. He reminds me of those irl boys who constantly disappoint their girlfriends, not trying much in the relationship, not giving what their girls need, so eventually the girls will end up breaking up with them. It’s a mechanism that happens a lot, of coward boys “not wanting to break up”, but still doing everything in their power to break up with their gfs by passively “giving up” on the relationship. I bet everyone knows about one of these stories irl.

Now mind me, I don’t think he is doing it consciously, as I personally think he still hasn’t figured it out entirely (how he feels, what he wants, etc), so everything he does with El is a problem of misunderstandings/identity/accepting who he is/what he wants; more than anything else. I don’t think Mike is willing to hurt El consciously, as he loves her (as a friend, as family, etc) and, for how messy a teenager can be, he is not a bad guy. Him using El or the “beard” theory are things I truly don’t believe about Mike - he isn’t using El the way some people paint him to, he isn’t hurting her with the intention of doing so! He isn’t bad, or cruel, or anything like that. He’s just confused about himself.

That doesn’t negate the fact that Mike is a bad boyfriend to El, in the end. Even if his intentions aren’t bad, he gaslights her a lot in S3 and S4 and I would have dumped his ass if I were El, but this consideration comes from a place of maturity/being older than them, so I understand why they kept dating despite everything. It’s El who takes the first step to mend their relationship with her confession “I love you too” and that goodbye kiss in S3, and then things just proceed...

In S4, unlike some fans like to say that “El needs to be independent, to learn about herself etc”, I personally think El is the more emotionally mature in the El/Mike couple. Despite lying about her life in Lenora (because she is hurting but she doesn’t want Mike to know about it - which is already a bad foundation for a relationship, imo, it means she can’t tell him everything); despite her lies, she is more aware of where they stand as a couple. If she was still navigating humans’ relationships and bonds in S1/S2, she now has grown enough to know there is something wrong in the way El/Mike work in a relationship, in how Mike is a boyfriend to her... we can argue that El herself isn’t in the right, as she has lied about her school experience, but that’s because both El and Mike are unable to TALK - unlike Will and Mike can - about their deeper fears, needs... Mike would have understood El’s bullying because he was bullied all his life, but there is a fundamental wall between them that comes from insecurities on both sides. 

El is insecure that Mike would love her now that she hasn’t powers, she doesn’t feel loved, etc, which leads to her lying, closing down, shutting up etc... but why is Mike insecure? (because he is afraid of losing her? But why would he lose her? Because she is away? Is he even trying to keep her and their relationship together?) 

Also “I guess, I thought I lost you or something” - his feelings are all over the place, and they’re both for El and Will, just he doesn’t know what they are. He is afraid of losing both of them, but his actions speak differently depending on the object of his love. The way he behaves and gaslight El, denying the “You don’t say it!” and FROM MIKE accusation, denying she is right for thinking he doesn’t love her or that their relationship isn’t working, is WRONG. If you are truly in the wrong, you should apologize, try to understand, talk with her, but he just defends himself with excuses - and he doesn’t even say “I love you”, which could shut up El for the moment. He can’t lie to her to that extent, because everything he is doing wrongly, he is doing it from a place of confusion and self-doubt, not from a place of cruelty/consciousness.

Now, I think that Mike not being able to profess his love to El is something everyone has discussed and there are so many implications in that, but him not saying it when she asked him to say it IS SO!!! TELLING. Because Mike can’t say it because he isn’t sure about his feelings, but that means he is still using the mechanism of “letting her go”, of “giving up” on their relationship... he isn’t fighting for it. He genuinely can’t do it (and then later Will will help him do so, even if it’s a misplaced help). 

When Will says that sometimes it’s hard to discuss your real feelings to those close to you, you’re afraid of rejection etc, Mike agrees. He has true feelings he can’t talk about with people close to him, to El, maybe to Will too. Now this supports the theory that Mike is partially aware of his inner doubts, I don’t know on what extent... I wasn’t sure whether Mike already actively knows he likes Will, but he still likes him imo because of the difference of treatment he has for Will.

“I didn’t say it / You didn’t have to” / when Will starts saying he was wrong to El etc, Mike says he wasn’t, he has nothing to apologize for / Mike will apologize and mend their relationship, actively seeking Will out, actively talking to him, etc... like some bylers have said, he emotionally cheat on El with Will, because he has deep convos with him even about their relationship and he talks to Will with ease and honesty (until a certain extent, he never really says why El is upset with him - from mike, from mike...). He fights for their relationship.

This could either be a bad case of "you write guys’ friendship so deeply and you write them in romance so misogynistically, they end up having deeper relationships to their bros than their girlfriends” ... or it could be Mike being a confused queer kid. At the end of the day, no matter if Mike loves Will canonically (although I think he does), he shouldn’t be El boyfriend anymore. He is bad for her. He has to grow. He has to face himself. 

I want him Vecna-ed so bad!!!  I want a Mike-centric episode where we finally SEE HIM and his struggles!!! LET HIM SPEAK (let him love Will Byers)

[sleepy-moron]

I love it when people are like "who's your favorite kid in stranger things?" because I am incapable of choosing a favorite:

Lucas: an absolute king and probably the party member I would want the most as an irl friend. Completely willing to be the one to tell people the hard truths that they need to hear even when they don't want to hear it and that's something I respect greatly. Lucas is an awesome friend and people who hate him are cowards <3

Dustin: ah fellow annoying as shit smartass younger sibling! Has some of the best lines in the show, and is absolutely 100% unapologetically himself in s3 and s4. Grade A+ dork and I think he'd be super fun to play DND with.

Max: Total badass and somehow cooler at 13 than I am as a college student. Has quite possibly the best scene in the show as well as absolutely exquisite music taste. Such a genuinely compassionate person underneath the snark, 10/10 would go shop at a mall with her.

El: Spent he entire childhood being used by adults and yet she still wants to be kind and do good!! Genuinely insane how much we've seen her grow over the course of the show. She's an incredible person because of who she is, not because of her powers. I want her to break up with Mike so badly because she deserves better <3

Will: How is this 12 year old better in a crisis than I am? He's incredibly empathetic and kind, yet has also verbally destroyed Johnathan and I love that for him. His tendency to hide his suffering makes me so emo but I also do get why he feels the need to do so. I want nothing but good things for this kid! 11/10 would be down to draw with him while listening to the clash!

Mike: Literally gives me brainrot because he reminds me of what I was like as a kid. I genuinely want to give him a hug and tell him everything is going to be okay constantly. Doesn't get his own emotions yet is still somehow so repressed it's almost painful to watch. I want to sit him down and talk with him about his feelings because the kid clearly needs too

[willel]

Tbh, it has always been kinda ridiculous for the characters to not try to break off Will's connection to the UD in a real way in S3 or previously, I wonder if the Duffers realize that though. The kid can feel the UD actions and he sensed that the MF has returned, but none of the characters actually think it about breaking Will's connection to that place to end Will's ever lasting trauma. They are just so casual about it and it has been bothering me for some time.

Even in S4, when Will reveals that he can feel Vecna and he is connected to him still and it has been him this whole time, Mike is deeply worried and scared too kinda but that is it? He does not say anything that much, he just says that they will kill Vecna. But no one really thinks that it is weird and dangerous for Will to have been connected to the UD and Vecna for years. Are they just gonna wait until Will is in a definite life threatening situation again? Because that makes the characters kinda look dumb if anything, no offence.

It definitely should have been a red flag for Mike when Will revealed that he can sense Henry, but no, there is no actual panic over that. Just saying that they will kill him. 😅 Ofc Will is going to be put in danger again bc of that connection, esp if he spies or tries to track Henry in some way. And Will is in his most vulnerable state now too emotionally and psychologically, so good luck i guess. They will have ti spend time on breaking Will's connection as a necessity this time. Lets hope it is not too late for that...

There was some discussion about this a while back and I don't remember the conclusion I came to but here is the conclusion I have now.

In this moment, Mike decided what happened and they never really questioned it again. Even the adults and teenagers.

Maybe it's a repeat of this moment in season one.

"Ah yes I see. These children know more than us. I believe them."

WHICH ISN'T BAD, they were pretty much right about everything happening in season 1 thanks to El's input.

This moment in season 2 doesn't make Mike wrong either! He was right, Will isn't having flashbacks. He's literally looking into the Upside Down. Maybe he's right, Will gained the ability to look into the Upside Down. I'm sure Mike explained this to Joyce when they were together. Then Hopper, then Jonathan, then everyone else during group discussions that certainly happened off screen to get everyone up to pace.

They investigated and pondered about him being possessed of course but I don't think Mike and the rest of the gang REALLY thought about it deeper than that. At this point, they just all accepted "Will gained powers while he was in the Upside Down."

From season 3 onward, they haven't questioned his connection to the Mind Flayer SPECIFICALLY. That is totally separate from True Sight and they never acknowledge it. Joyce is probably completely unaware of it actually, Will hasn't told her a thing I'm sure.

The party showed no concern about it in season 3. They didn't even find Will suspicious after they discovered the Mind Flayer was possessing people again. JONATHAN DIDN'T REACT TO WILL HAVING A PANIC ATTACK IN THE MALL LIKE?????? (that's some poopy writing right there. That part specifically)

Now in season 4, Mike doesn't question it whatsoever. He looks scared. Confused. Then concerned. No urgency to tell anyone. Doesn't ask Will more questions about it. Just a shoulder pat, "Don't worry, we'll kill him :D" (Will doesn't look convinced in my opinion, lol)

They investigated and pondered about him being possessed of course. But they never went beyond that for some reason.

But Will? I think Will HAS wondered about it and he's kept his mouth shut. I would like to crack open his brain and see inside.

Either way.... I do think all this is leading to the team being caught off guard (again) and will screw them over for a good part of the season for sure.

If these theories are true, than the people who have been paying attention such as us will be slapping our foreheads like "WHY DIDN'T YOU NOTICE SOONER CHARACTERS?! YEESH"

But.... I've seen the kinds of things the general audience thinks about and posts about. I've watched countless ST theory videos and discussions. This is NOT on their radar at all.

[beepboop358]

My Byler theories/predictions for S4

Since s4 is already confirmed to not be the last season, I don’t think Byler will officially get together in s4. I do think that we are definitely going to get a large amount of Byler’s development in s4 though, we just aren’t at the finish line yet. Since Byler has been being developed all through each of the seasons, I think the writers are playing the long game with Mike and Will. I really appreciate a queer romance that is so well developped, especially in something so popular! I think the season will end on a note where it’s understood what Mike has been struggling with, It’s made known that Will is gay, and that Mike has feelings for Will, and Will has feelings for Mike.

My predictions/theories for Byler in s4:

Mike might be acting a little off at school and Dustin is going to notice his odd behavior and ask what’s up

I think Mike will be getting in trouble at school and at home (based on whenever he doesn’t have Will/El around he does stupid things - like graffitti the bathroom wall, plagiarize essays, curse at adults, etc.) I don’t know if Mike knows about Eddie dealing drugs, but he might and he might get drugs from Eddie and do them to cope with everything he is struggling with. His parents might ground him for doing drugs, and forbid him from going to visit the Byers, and then we could get our runaway smalltown boy montage! LOL

Lonnie might come to visit the Byers in California for Will’s birthday. He will probably show up because he thinks they have money now, or he wants to sue Starcourt like he wanted to sue the quarry in s1. Mike will also be there visiting for Will’s birthday. Lonnie will mock Will and make fun of him like he always did, but he will also hate Mike. Lonnie will definitely notice Will and Mike’s dynamics and he will definitely comment about it. He might even call them homophobic slurs like we know he used to do with Will when he was younger. Lonnie will probably make Will cry and Mike upset. Lonnie might possibly “out” him and Mike before they are out and confirm it themselves. Some of the movies on the stranger writers twitter for s4 also hint at this, as well as having the baseball references. There are also hints to Will’s birthday throughout the show: The rainbow happy birthday mug seen in the crazy together scene, the “sorry i forgot your birthday card” in Will’s room from Lonnie, and Joyce’s speech in the shed discussing Will’s 8th birthday and his “rainbow ship”. Jonathan also mentions how Lonnie made him kill a rabbit on his 10th birthday and he cried for a week after, just more hints that if Lonnie shows up for Will’s bday, it’s gonna be bad.

Mike might get Will a watch for his birthday. This would reference the clocks being central to the s4 plot, and “not wanting things to change/turning back the clock” in Hopper’s letter

Will is being homophobically bullied at his new school again, possibly references to Will having HIV/AIDS because the height of the epidemic was in the 80’s and it was very stigmatized

Mike will call Will more than he will call El. Will might be slightly surprised by this, El’s frequent calling will annoy Mike and he might turn off his walkie talkie. (basically the reverse of what Mike said would happen in the s3 ending mileven scene)

Mike and Will will be in the same location for most of the season, like s2. They will not leave each other’s sides for the majority of the time they are together.

S4 Group Predictions:

- El, Will, Mike trio together with Jonathan and Argyle. (we will get some obvious tension between El, Will, and Mike, and Mike will hate Argyle at first)

- Robin, Steve, Erica, Max, Dustin, Lucas, Vickie, Eddie, Nancy

- Joyce, Murray, etc?

- Hopper and the other Russians (Dimitri, etc)

The rift between Mike and El will continue to grow.

When Mike comes to visit, she will notice he seems much more interested in Will.

El will ask why the bullies call Will those things (queer/fairy/gay/homo, probably f slurs too), what it means and if he really is “a queer”.

I don’t know if Will is going to come out to El. They have never interacted before, and I doubt Will trusts her or really likes her much mainly, because of Mike. Unless they get super close during the time not portrayed on screen between s3 and s4, or by being all each other has in California, I don’t know if  he will come out to El. I could see this going either way depending on how their friendship develops. I definitely do not think Will is going to tell El he likes Mike, even if he does confide in her he is gay. I think she will find out eventually but in some other way, probably just from Mike’s behavior towards Will.

El will eventually realize she doesn’t actually love Mike and let go of the ‘romance’ aspect of their bond, but still highly value him as a friend.

Mike might be called homophobic slurs at school as well. Mike will definitely be teased (regardless of his sexuality) because he is in the hellfire club and since satanic panic is sweeping the town, people look at D&D as if it is a satanic game, and he will be teased because of that.

Based on the leaked bts pics, I have a theory a cheerleader, or someone else, might show interest in Mike.  Mike will not reciprocate and she will call him out for it asking why he doesn't like her because “any other guy at this school would” or something like that, maybe even ask “what are you gay or something”. It would certainly be good for Mike’s narrative but idk if it will happen.

Will may confide in Jonathan about his feelings for Mike and the things the bullies say to him at school. Jonathan will be supportive of Will, as will Joyce. I think he will also try to protect Will from Lonnie and they will both defend Will to Lonnie.

I think we need a scene of Mike with his Mom telling him to follow his heart, like who you like, etc. because life is too short to waste it being miserable or something like that. This could be inspired by Mike’s parents seperating, but idk. This could also encourage Mike to initiate more romantic things with Will.

I would love to get a scene of Will confronting Mike for “Joining another party”, after Will said he wouldn’t.

Will and Mike need to discuss what was said in their fight.

I think since Mike's been holding in a lot of turmoil and struggling with his sexuality for so long we might get a small breakdown scene from him, of him telling Will he’s really sorry for how he treated him last summer, and for all the things he said to Will. Mike will profusely apologize and also hint at how he’s confused and been dealing with a lot.

I think Mike will be the first one to break down and confess he has feelings for Will and has been struggling with coming to terms with his sexuality.

Once Will has confirmation Mike is also struggling with his sexuality, Will might come out to him. I would love for him to reference the fight being like “You were right. I don’t like girls.” (from @itsonlystrange ‘s 4x07 byler script it’s so good!) I don't know if Will will confess he likes Mike to his face or not. I don't think it's likely given how shy Will is and how afraid he is of Mike not reciprocating, but who knows.

Mike may initiate a kiss between him and Will - towards the end of the season probably (eyewitness parallel - explained in my byler proof google slides)

I think Mike and Will might write letters to each other, with some love-y connotations. There is a lot of evidence for this in the canon comics of them writing notes to each other, and that cryptic tweet from stranger writers twitter with a blocked out message and the date Will went missing saying it wasn’t about a couple or hopper. Maybe byler related? This tweet may not be a letter but it might be. The most popular theories are that the message is to Will, “love mike”, which I love. https://twitter.com/strangerwriters/status/1184945905973153792?lang=en

Will has a new haircut (bts pics) and Mike will gush over it. Maybe some gay-panicking too hopefully

I think El will be either physically or at least emotionally distant the entire season from the other kids (again following the pattern of even and odd seasons) El needs some personal development this season, since she didn’t get any in s3.

El might confront Mike and ask if he is gay and if he likes Will, which could be El’s motivation to go off on a journey of her own to learn more about her own life. I don’t think it will be a huge fight, but El might make some references to him always lying to her. I think Mike might just kind of try to talk his way out of it at first, but he will eventually break. This might be a two part discussion and Mike doesn’t admit she is right until later. I don’t think it makes sense for El to be heartbroken (explained in my byler proof slides), just slightly annoyed. This is based off of the movie Tootsie which they borrowed the “gift” idea from in s3 already. In the movie, the girlfriend then after receiving the gift asks “Michael” if he is gay.

I really think eventually El will realize it’s okay because she doesn’t love him romantically either, and once she realizes that her own personal development can really begin.

I think we will see a noticeable change in Mike’s demeanor. I think Mike will mainly just be trying to hide that he is gay now. He joined the hellfire club so we know he’s playing d&d again meaning he is reverting back to his true self, not the weird act he put on in s3 trying to be straight and change himself. He is still struggling, but he knows he likes Will. Regardless that doesn’t mean he is going to be super clear about how he feels. He is going to be extremely afraid of opening up and then getting hurt by Will. He will probably do some of his usual ‘lead Will on and then shut it down’ thing. And I really want Will to call him out on this. This could also lead to Mike breaking down in front of Will and confessing. I think we are going to get a lot of 'Mike gay panicking' moments, he's going to be extremely afraid of being found out/suspected.

Byler things I really want to happen that we may get because they would have narrative significance:

I really want flashbacks to those 3 months of summer between the starcourt explosion and the Byers moving, of moments between Mike and Will when they hang out alone together, with some obvious romantic tension. Like where they are super playful and almost kiss, or they are kind of touchy, or something in the realm of that. I think we need a flashback of something that explains Will’s flirty nature at the very end of s3 with Mike, because he doesn't normally act like that. I want noticeable “is something going on with them?” vibes. This could also happen during the thanksgiving/christmas flashbacks.

I hope we get flashbacks of Mike going to the Byers for Thanksgiving, and the Byers coming back to Hawkins for Christmas. Preferably of some Mike and Will moments that hint at Mike’s confusion or how he feels “so alone” without Will, maybe with some “crazy together” references too! I’d also love some tension between the 3 of them, maybe this is when El starts to get suspicious of Mike liking Will.

Hopefully we get some shots of Mike biking past the byers old house and going to look at castle byers and reminiscing.

I’d love to get a flashback of Mike the day the Byers moved away, of him crying or being upset, alone in his room/basement while looking at Will’s drawings or pictures of Will and him together. Mainly to confirm for people that Mike was upset about Will moving, not as much El.

This one does not seem super probable, but it is a very popular theory. Idk if it’s possible because of location logistics, but if they spend enough time together, I’d love for Mike to get to know Robin better, and Will too. Maybe once everyone comes together at the end of the season, she will notice their dynamics and could help guide and inspire them to be themselves. Hey maybe thats for s5 :) But I do think it’s a possibility that Mike may work at the video store with Steve and Robin, and she will pick up on Mike’s behavior and understand, whether she communicates that to him or not.

[hopewritcs]

devil hands, angel heart. two.

pairing: no romantic pairing / subject to change

word count: 1.4k

summary: eleven was the last.  kali was number eight, who had escaped.  and you, well they were going to kill you.  you were an experiment gone wrong.  number nine.  so when kali left, you’d run with her.  and when she couldn’t use you for what she’d wanted, she left you in the middle of nowhere without anything to your name.  it’s been years, and despite all the normal you’ve felt in your life.  you can feel something is pulling you back to hawkins, back to “home”.  

notes: SEASON 4 SPOILERS ! while the original fic takes place in s3, i figured part two i would jump ahead to s4. don’t worry, there’s a bit of a backstory for the jump between s3-4 in the fic. i’m not entirely sure if this will be an ongoing fic, but i might do at least one or two more parts depending on what happens with the rest of s4, or where i end up with this chapter. i might have messed around with the timeline a bit for the flight but y’all get the idea lol. if you like this chapter and want to see a third part, let me know! 

part one | part two

stranger things tag list: tba 

You never thought you’d have an actual family. Sure, there had been the lab. Dr. Brenner had all the kids calling him Papa, but that place had never really felt like home--maybe in the moment for a while it had, but once you’d left? It just felt like everything there had been holding you back, keeping you down. 

But after everything happened, despite the fact that you were older than her children and had been living on your own, Joyce had offered that you go with them to California. She said that as El’s “sister” she wouldn’t want to separate you from each other when you had only just met. 

Since the move, you’d been working and under the insistence of Joyce taking classes in attempts to get a high school diploma. You were working with Jonathan’s friend Argyle at Surfer Boy Pizza, which was a bit of a stretch from your usual diner waitress job, but answering phones and running around the restaurant wasn’t entirely too bad. 

It surprised you that you were still in touch with everyone from back in Hawkins, considering you hadn’t known them long before the move to California. Nancy, when she wasn’t writing or calling for Jonathan, was often asking for you. Even Steve and Robin were checking up on you. 

Yes, Steve. He apologized for doubting you after the incident, and was now probably one of your closest friends. Which was why you were going back to Hawkins with Jonathan for Spring Break. 

Except, as the time came closer, Jonathan decided he didn’t want to go. So you were at the airport to greet Mike and then catch your own flight back to Hawkins and still looking over at Jonathan. 

“Are you sure you don’t want to come back home?” You asked, an eyebrow raised as you shifted the bag you were holding in your hands. 

“Someone’s gotta watch after the teens or whatever.” Jonathan shrugged his shoulders. Though you didn’t know him well before the move to California, from what you heard from your talks with Steve you could tell that Jonathan had certainly changed since you had moved. 

“If you want company I’m totally game to go to this mystery Hawkins place you and Jonathan keep rambling on about.” Argyle offered after Jonathan said no, looking up at you with a shrug of his shoulders. 

“Thanks, but I think I’ll be fine on my own.” You knew you would be, after all, you’d been on your own ever since the escape from the labs and Kali leaving you to go off with her “group” for vengeance. But, still, it would have been nice to have somebody with you. 

“Are you sure you don’t want to stay?” El asked, looking up at you nervously. You already knew what was going through her mind, she was nervous because the last time she’d let somebody in her family go away from her they’d wound up dying. 

Hopper. You’d never met him, but from all the stories you heard, he sounded like a great guy, someone who took in a super powered kid when they needed someone. That was a plus in your book. 

“I am going to be fine.” You promised her. 

How could you possibly know that there might be something different coming your way? That the promise you made in the California airport to your sister was going to go out the window in a few short days. 

“You’ll come back?” El asked. 

“Of course, it’s just Spring Break.” You answered, pulling her into a hug and smiling softly. “We’re sisters, El. I’m not going anywhere. Well...not for good, at least.” 

You’d never been on a plane before. When you moved with the Byers’ family and El out to California you’d driven, and even before then planes had never been something you thought about. 

Up in the air, you were worried about your powers, which had been acting up since the battle at the mall, but it was all difficult to focus on anything. You instead, just decided to put music on your walkman and drift out for the flight. 

You barely counted the time, but tapping your hand on the seat and listening to music helped you get through everything. Plus, knowing your friends would be there to pick you up from the airport. 

Meanwhile, back in Hawkins, after they left the school with the news looming over their heads Steve was driving and then stopped short, turning around. 

“Shit, Steve. I know Max said she thinks she’s dying but could you not try and kill us all.” Dustin said from the passengers seat, looking at him and then to the back where Lucas and Max sat, both as confused as he was. 

“I was supposed to pick up Y/N from the airport.” Steve said. “Fuck, what time is it?” he glanced at the dashboard of his car while he was driving and tapped his hands on the steering wheel. “Fuck.” 

“I thought Jonathan wasn’t coming home for break.” Lucas shrugged his shoulders. 

“Y/N still wanted to come. Robin’s parents are gonna let her stay with them for the week.” Steve said, tapping his hand on the wheel. How had he forgotten that he was supposed to pick you up from the airport? He’d been looking forward to it. In fact, it was one of the only reasons he was looking forward to Spring Break. 

Fuck this Vecna shit. He was so late. 

“I can’t even drop you off before...” he trailed off, sighing. He didn’t want to have to force them all along especially after everything that had just happened. But what else was he supposed to do? 

“Relax, Harrington.” Max spoke up, shaking her head. “It’s not like any of us are going anywhere,” she paused, clearing her throat and then adding, “right now at least.” 

“I don’t think a joke about your possible imminent death is funny, Max.” Steve sighed. 

“We’re gonna have to tell her when we see her.” Dustin pointed out.

Yeah, Spring Break was suddenly going from something Steve had been looking forward to to something he was dreading. 

How long had you been waiting at the airport? Long enough that a few people passing by had given you a certain look of pity. You knew it well, it was the look you’d seen on people’s faces when they didn’t know what to say. You tapped your hands on your leg and looked around for the clock. 

Maybe Steve was working and had forgotten? You figured you should call, but you didn’t know the number of the video store place, and who else was there to call? 

He promised. 

Finally, you saw headlights pull up in front of you and you stood up from where you sat on the sidewalk and looked over as you saw multiple people getting out of the car. Relief washed over you as you realized it was Steve, along with Max and Dustin and Lucas. 

“I’m so sorry, Y/N.” Steve said as he made his way over to you, pulling you into a hug. Dustin and Lucas busied themselves with your bag to fit it into the trunk and Steve spoke to you. “I forgot what time it was and we were... Well, uh,” 

You looked at him confused as he pulled away. The happiness you’d felt almost immediately rushing away as you thought about what could possibly be wrong. 

“So, I might be dying in the next day or so.” Max said, a shrug of her shoulder as she toyed with the headphones she wore around her neck. 

“What the fuck Max, you can’t just say it like that!” Lucas shouted from the car, looking back at her. 

“It’s true.” she answered back, turning to look at him. 

“What’s going on?” You asked, looking between everyone and waiting for an explanation. 

“Not in the open like this. Let’s go and take you to Robin’s and we’ll explain everything.” Steve said, gently tugging your arm as he spoke and gestured for everyone to head into the car. 

Dustin pulled up the antenna on the radio walkie talkie he’d held in his hand and used it to call out to Nancy and Robin, explaining the situation and saying they were on their way to Robin’s place with you. 

Somehow, you managed to wind up back in Hawkins when everything was happening again. 

You really should have stayed away from this town while you had the chance.  

[kaypeace21]

DID theory part 3: St novels/comics/spotify list analyses

*read part 2  of DID theory-first! You’ll be lost otherwise, seriously XD. First, I’ll say -I find the ST comics/ books as canon as the st movie inspirations . I don’t consider the books/comics ‘literal canon’ (cause they contradict the show ( like Max and billy meeting a year before s2  in runaway max - but meeting as little kids in s3,  or El’s age being wrong in suspicious minds, in the d&D comic Will’s friends instead of him /Jonathan building castle byers, etc) . 

So I think we shouldn’t take it  literally - but more like the st movie lists - filled with foreshadowing/symbolism and other eastereggs (That the Duffers may have told them to add). So here’s some more (possible) alter / DID hints...

‘Suspicious minds’ novel

- Brenner  equates k*lling rabbits to h*rting kids. And he’ll hurt (kid) Kali (the bunny in the analogy) if Terry tries running away from him . I wonder if Lonnie used a similar threat against jonathan? Jon could be giving only a partial truth to why he cried for a week (about the bunny story)?

-Kali “hops” like a bunny then talks about tigers obsessively (linking her to rabbits/tigers similar to the other alters/Will/Lonnie). Terry also imagines tigers and kali says to Alice they can all be tigers together.

- one of the only male psychic experiments (who can see the future) is gay

- Terry is into lord of the rings, like Will. Has her and her boyfriend dress as sam & frodo (m/m ship). Terry calls her and her friends “the fellowship”.

-when Terry/Alice were injected with d**gs -they hallucinated rainbows.yikes.

- Alice (like Lonnie) is a car mechanic. She can see the future like Will the wise and says “monsters of course my mind has them as long as they stayed in there, everything would be alright? Wouldn’t it?” (in her visions she saw the demogorgan).

 (completed) graphic ST novels (by Jody Hozer) so far  (+ other st comics).

*Jody Hozer writes all the graphic novels (every novel is 4 chapters each) - the will byers comic, number 6 comic , into the fire comic, and at the moment she’s writing the d&d series and the summer camp series (which isn’t done yet). Then there’s the occasional 1 chapter st comics not written by her.

- Number 6 has (the ability to foresee the future like Will the wise/Alice) and has an ab*sive dad. 

When having a nightmare of the demogorgan ...she says as she wakes up “screw you dad” (another hint the demogrgan -aka in d&d means ‘deep father’ ...is Lonnie).

- when number 6 and others run they say they’re’ “rabbiting”(which yes technically makes sense but I found such an uncommon phrase odd.)

- The (summer camp and d&d graphic novels aren’t completed yet) but they establish d&d creatures are based off  real life people the boys don’t like in real life. Or that d&d is used as an outlet to explain true events from their pasts -but they just give the true stories a d&d fantasy slant.

- Which brings me to the halloween oneshot(not by Hozer),taking place before s1. Will tells a scary story told to him by Jonathan, and originally told to him by Lonnie. Says the boys have to keep it a secret cause it was something he was never supposed to tell to anyone. Mike says he has to finish the story he started. It’s about a “ch*lld-eater” monster first attacking a boy near the quarry (like where Will was found) and  attacking kids in a library (where Will was also found in s1).When the child sees the sheriff she bangs on the library door begging for help-he ignores her , walks away, and tells the other cops to never speak of what they saw as she screams for help. Because the previous sheriff was in kahoots with the monster. It def had some ... uh questionable imagery too 0_0

The vine in the mouth is also like the one in Will’s mouth (when Joyce found him in the library).And of course Dustin asks whether or not something like that could be covered up.

- In the “bully  comic” (about troy) also not by Jody. We focus on Troy and his ab*sive dad (who encourages him to fight/ditch his best friend). The dad has a drinking problem (gets fired), calls Troy a “mess” , pushes him, and constantly encourages Troy to be vi*lent/macho. He pretty much tries sabotaging the relationship Troy has with his friend (which I could see Lonnie doing in the future with byler).The dad/troy is framed similarly to when Billy gives Max a ride home-  after both ab*sers give bad advice saying not to hang out with their friend (after witnessing them fight in the school parking lot). Dad also laughs about almost k*lling a squirrel (a trait we see troy mimic)- and we see El feel guilty about k*lling a squirrel in s2. At the end of the comic- Troy (like Will) after making up with his bff james- moves leaving his best friend behind.

-  (into the fire) Twins: (one was normal with no powers living in the real world and the twin with fire powers is trapped in a dark sunless “cold” world styled like a psych facility/medieval fantasy) . pics in link.She hated her reflection cause it reminded her of being betrayed by her normal non powered twin who left her behind in the ‘cold’ place. She’d call herself a ‘hunter’ who would defend herself and attack others to never be hurt again. Her powers being unleashed were described like opening “a door.” And she loves her twin deep down and just wants friends . And fire twin goes to the “other side” to reunite with her reflection and find happiness in the real world. *also there’s sunflower/bunny symbols which she lights on fire-which can relate back to Will/Terry/Lonnie etc. The twins = Will & Will the wise (mf)

Mirrors also connect to Will and Will the wise via the canon spotify playlists too.

Will playlist (song: mirror in the bathroom)-Mirror in the bathroom Please talk free.The door is locked -Just you and me.Mirror in the bathroom recompense for all my crimes of self defense.Cures you whisper make no sense!Drift gently into Mental illness.

Demogorgan playlist ( from perspective of Will the wise aka the mf) (song: are you dead yet? )-”polluted soul through a mirror I behold.Throw a punch, shards bleed on the floor. tearing me apart. but I don't care anymore.Should I regret or ask myself are you dead yet?Wake up, don't cry. Regenerate to deny the truth. The fiction you live in blindfolds your eyes. Disclosure, self loathing, this time you've gone too far.Or could it be, my nemesis, that you are me?

(*st ‘into the fire’ comic. the fire powered twin’s thoughts echo the song)

*I think this foreshadows the later plot points of mf (will the wise ) and Will interacting via mirrors. The fire-wielding twin and the non powered twin had a lot of mirror imagery. Including the fire powered twin (Who denies reality/and imagines herself in a fantasy world) punching her reflection because it reminds her of her non-powered twin. Here’s some cover art from the novels showing how much they emphasize mirrors.

*And in s4 movies Black swan - “the black and white swan twins (two halves of the same person-Nina)” had creepy mirror imagery. In long kiss goodnight the women with DID talks to her “ (supposed)dark 1/2″  via a mirror (in a dream).  in ‘the visit’ the teen girl who’s dad abandoned her when young-  refuses to look in the mirror (and it’s never explained why she hates her reflection). So yes I think we’ll see this in s4 or 5. We already see the mf take on the appearance of Billy when talking to him.

- Will in “zombie boy” comic is afraid he’s a monster.

also lets appreciate the lil byler moment of Mike and Will being the only zombies and mike comforting him. honestly , though, the characters were pretty out of character for most of this 1 ch comic (until the end) tbh.

- in the “d&d comic” mf is  (possibly) described as a “protector” (aka like how i said the mf is probably a perpetrator alter- which are misguided protectors).

*update now that it’s finished... hinting Will created everything subconsciously.

‘Runaway Max’ novel (before s3)

(I didn’t get time to read this book unlike ‘suspicious minds’ -so can’t show screen shots of everything others talked about. May read it eventually)

-Max compares Billy  to ‘her monster’ and a ‘shadow’ that will attack anyone that comes close (mf parallel).

- Dart k*lled a cat,  El’s papa tried to force her to k*ll a cat. And Billy when seeing a d*ad cat lights it on fire for a “viking funeral”. A connection to WW (who has fire powers) and El & dart.

-Max and Billy both are into cars and bond over fixing them (similar to Lonnie’s interest in fixing up cars). And since Lonnie tried to brag to Jonathan about fixing a car up and Will is into tech it wouldn’t be a stretch that Lonnie and Will were into fixing cars together (like Max/billy who would hang out at a autoshop in Cali) .  Similar to Will ,max says hanging with Billy wasn’t always so bad- which made things more confusing to her.

- Max compares Billy being beat up by Neil: to ‘punching a pocket of a baseball glove’. This is interesting since this book was pre-s3 which was when they established the connection of billy and his dad to baseball (similar to s1 saying  Lonnie taught Will baseball).

-Billy’s friend is a nice ‘music snob’ . He tries distracting Max with music while Billy is burning the cat. Which reminds me of Jonathan trying to distract Will from their parents fighting in the next room-with music

- Max’s bio dad is a criminal who takes her to shady bars, and Max fears he’d ‘get bored of her’. Max also ran away from her mom to her dad’s 2x.Which reminds me of Jonathan thinking Will ran to Lonnie’s in s1.

-Max mentions how Billy misses his friends after moving out of Cali. And he starts acting even worse-after the move. Which will probably be the case for Will (at least a bit) when moving to California.

-Billy tells Max Neil isn’t his ‘real dad’ either because Neil can’t be a father to anyone.

-Billy also tells Max who (at the time ) is 12 years old not to act “easy” and breaks her best friend’s (Nate’s) arm over  someone joking he was Max’s boyfriend and also cause Nate tried to get in between Billy bullying Max. Eventually all her Cali friends ditch her cause they’re afraid of Billy.And Ugh- why could I see Lonnie doing something like this in the future with Will/his new friends. 

- Creepily Max says Billy doesn’t fool around with her like other girls not because of her age or being family. But cause she wasn’t ‘attractive’. This whole excerpt gave me the heeby jeebies,on so many levels, honestly.  Almost like he’s jealous- and controlling her cause he doesn’t want Max to have any love interests. Maybe i’m just missing the context? But ugh... excerpt:

Will byers secret Files

-Hopper gets scared by a pumpkin-scarecrow. And in Will’s canon journal when talking about the mindflayer and his nightmares draws the same scare-crow , Hopper saw. There’s also a lot of s4-5 foreshadowing in the book... but that��s a post for another day.

Darkness on the edge of town (Hopper novel)

*didn’t get time to read this (except the preview)

 I think it’s more foreshadowing for future seasons though- cult/supposed ritual k*llings, people being wrongly blamed for those crimes-like the hellfire club , most likely.  (similar to the guy number 3 in the number 6 comic)  saint john in the novel also has the same brain control powers as 3- similar to the mf. .” When a blackout plunges the boroughs into chaos, Hopper must escape the the mobs in the streets to make sure his family is safe and stop Saint John from fulfilling his prophecy.” I already talked about here- how the next few seasons would start having more religious symbolism/a future apocalypse (based on what we’ve seen in the show/s4 movies). Although, i think there’s quite a few differences between (the novel’s) saint john and Will the wise. Hopper is also a star wars nerd like the boys (alter hint)

Canon spotify songs (posted after s2/before s3) hinting at DID/ alter /lonnie stuff-

Will  and Will the wise (aka the mf) being an alter

*Used Will and the demogorgan playlist (which i think has perspectives of Will the wise aka the mf, demogorgan, and Lonnie).

Besides the mirror songs previously mentioned...

Will (cold inside)-Doctor the problem's in my chest.My heart feels cold as ice but it's anybody's guess?Doctor can you help me cause I don't feel right?Better make it fast before I change my mind. Doctor can you help me cause I don't feel right?Better make it fast before I change my mindWell it's cold, cold, cold, cold inside. Darker in the day than the dead of night Cold, cold, cold, cold inside...Counselor give me some advice Tell me how hard will I fall if I live a double life?

El (ghost)-your ghost, the ghost of you.It keeps me awake.My friends had you figured out.Yeah they saw what's inside of you. You tried hiding another you.But your evil was coming through... living in the shade Your cold heart makes my spirit shake.

El (monster Lead me home)-I don't know what, what I was afraid of, I was afraid oooof...Monster take me somewhere...We walk in shadow.Monster lead me home.Where there is no place to hide.Stranger on the other side We walk in shadow.Monster lead me home.

 The’ innerworld’/  other hints Max, El, Hopper, and Billy are alters of Will’s

Max (Logical song)-I know it sounds absurd. Please tell me who I am, who I am, who I am, who I am?

EL(Buzzcut season)-I remember when your head caught flame It kissed your scalp and caressed your brain ...nothing's wrong when nothing's true. I live in a hologram with you Where all the things that we do for fun . Play along (make-believe it's hyper real) But I live in a hologram with you.

Billy (broken bones)-Broken bones.Stay alone. If I see only what I believe -reality's bound by what I conceive

Max (Why can’t i touch it)-Well, it seems so real.I can see it.And it seems so real-I can feel it.And it seems so real-I can taste it.And it seems so real-I can hear it.So why can't I touch it?

Hopper (breakers)-Just to keep me from losing my mind .It's so easy to drown in the dream.Oh, and everything is not what it seems This life is but a dream.Shatter illusions that hold your spirit down ...From the inside, so it seems.Oh, I'm telling you it's all a dream It's all a dream It's all a dream It's all a dream It's all a It's all a dream.”

Max (comfortably numb)-When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye.I turned to look but it was gone.I cannot put my finger on it now.The child is grown.The dream is gone.I have become comfortably numb.

Max (Kids aren’t alright)-Still it's hard Hard to see Fragile lives, shattered dreams...What the hell is going on? The cruelest dream, reality.

El(team)-Livin' in ruins of a palace within my dreams. And you know we're on each other's team

Hopper (denial twist) ( just change ‘she’ to ‘he’)-Just because she makes you feel wrong she don't mean to be mean or hurt you on purpose, boy!Take a tip and do yourself a little service...by playing a different role Ya, by playing a different role, oh.The boat ya you know she's rockin' it.And the truth well ya know there's no stoppin' it.So what, somebody left you in a rut and wants to be the one who's in control.But the feeling that you're under can really make you wonder.How the hell she can be so cold?So now you're mad, denying the truth.And it's getting in the wisdom in the back of your tooth

El (the story)-You see the smile that's on my mouth.It's hiding the words that don't come out.And all of my friends who think that I'm blessed.They don't know my head is a mess.No they don't know who I really am.And they don't know what I've been through

El (hero) ( pretty much alludes to El being a construct of Will’s mind similar to his juju zombies in the d&d story he wrote )-Who knows what you'll find when you look inside (billy’s mind)?Haunted beach (billy flashback), roll the dice.The zombies in the corner aren't amused (d&d ref).Play the part of the blushing bride...Out of view, cloaked by night...My spirit dims, but I feel the force"No longer in my hands,"  (loses powers) .I say to you .I could've been a hero, I could've been a zero.Could've been all these thingsI could've been nothing, I could've had something.Could've been all these things.And if I am unable, tell him that I'll try but underneath the table will spin the wheel and hope for gold. Oh, and where it stops, nobody knows.

Max (it’s real)-I don't know who's behind the wheel.Sometimes I feel like I don't know The deal.But when I tell you how I feel-Believe me when I say It's real.I skated on a frozen Sea.It's real as far as I Can see?

Max (Halloween)-Because your role is planned for you there's nothing you can do.

El (White rabbit... alice and wonderland/lonnie ref)-And if you go chasing rabbits, and you know you're going to fall...When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

demogrogan(Dimensions of horror)-Gaze upon the ancient face you dread (lonnie)... Passing through the doors, into Dimensions Of Horror. Haunting visions from the past, rise once more.Realms of darkness, terror, death and gore.Scream in fear, your sanity is lost

demogorgan (SCHORCHED)-Terrorizing madness. Vivid dreams. internal. Hallucinating the unknown. Abstract entities prey.Through superhuman abilities.Fragments of memory erased.

demogrogan (Calling from a dream)-the shadow king...seven spirits (7 ref) Swarming around his head.Close your eyes.Listen to my call. Our bond will bring us together again.I will wait for you. For our hearts still beat as one.Listen to my calling from a dream. (integration?)

 Maybe a coincidence or a hint at Will having both male &female alters?Billy (dude looks like a lady)- What a funky lady...Oh, he was a lady.Dude looks like a lady. Hopper (turn the page)-All the same old cliches,"Is that a woman or a man?" Max ( rebel rebel) (this was on her her pre s3 spotify list + post s3 “wrapped list”)- you got your mother in a whirl, doesn’t know if you’re a boy or girl? 

 SHIT DAD/ AB*SIVE FAMILY

*trigger w*rning ahead for dark themes like s**ual ab*se

demogorgan (my children)My children I never loved them.Why feel that way when their existence is my business?My children...feral vessals of my selfinterest...So don't lean on me man 'Cause I ain't got nothing to give.Don't lean on me man 'Cause I ain't got nothing to give.My children they're right behind you My children they're gonna beat you.My children if you let them Oh, oh, my children.

demogorgan (black dahlia-window):  I’m not quoting the lyrics you can just look it up.  it’s messed up.Based on the 1st person pov of Gilles de Rais -k**ler and p*d*rest who also kidnapped a cleric.

Will (creature comfort)-Some boys hate themselves.Spend their lives resenting their fathers... hate their bodies .Stand in the mirror (another mirror ref) and wait for the feedback.Some boys get too much, too much love, too much touch.

Jonathan’s Playlist- We’re happy family: “Eating refried beans (poverty). Gulpin’ down Thorazines (pills for a mood disorder). We ain’t got no friends (s2 ref). Our troubles never end. Daddy likes men. Daddy’s telling LIES.”

Jonathan’s playlist-Enter sandman: “Don’t forget my son. Sleep with one eye open. Gripping your pillow tight, Exit light, Enter night. Take my hand, we’re off to never-never land. Something’s wrong, shut the light, heavy thoughts tonight. Dreams of LIARS and of things that will bite, yeah. Hush little baby don’t say a word, and never mind that noise you heard. It’s just the beasts under your bed, in your closet in your head.”

Jonathan (The killing moon-guy sings this)-So soon you'll take me up in your arms. Too late to beg you or cancel it. Against your will!He will wait until you give yourself to him...In starlit nights I saw you.So cruelly you kissed me... unwillingly mine.

jonathan (haunted)-You and I both know that the house is haunted And you and I both know that the ghost is me. You used to catch me in your bed-sheets just a-rattling your chains.Well back then , it didn't seem so strange...In the midnight hour..I was busy trying to charm that snake. When the sun came up we had no place to hide...You and I both know that the house is haunted  yeah you and I both know that the ghost is YOU! You used to walk around screaming, all slamming all 'dem doors Well I'm all grown up now and I don't scare easy no more But you and I both know.

Hopper (Confession)-Now I'm on the low Confession, to a virgin ghost Admission, force you know.

hopper (Tomorrow ) Yeah, and back when s*x and amph*tamines were the staples of our childhood physique.

Max (Last caress)-I got something to say.I k**led your baby today.And it doesn't matter much to me.As long as it's de*d.Well I got something to say.I r*ped your mother today.And it doesn't matter much to me.As long as she spread. (Lonnie pov? Neil?messed up song to be on Max’s list)

hopper House of the rising sun- And my father was a gamblin' man Way down in New Orleans... And the only time he's satisfied Is when he's on a drunk

Max Poor relations-An attitude, no patience, he's paper thin.Talking over everything you have to say...Don't correct the things he said, what's the use?Can't handle violence.Can't handle violence.Learning to love the abuse you can't live without.Your familiar oppression, your daily injustice...That loser man that belongs to you, he's ruling you.

el (sweet dreams are made of this)- Some of them want to use you ...Some of them want to ab*se you.Sweet dreams are made of this...Hold your head up.Keep your head up, movin' on.

Max (Alternative ulster)-They say they're a part of you.And that's not true, you know.They say they've got control of you.And that's a lie, you know.They say you will never Be free, free, free

max In bloom-”Sometimes at night I let it get to me.And last night it had me down and feeling NUMB...And thinking back upon those days Way way back when I was young.I was such a little shit.Cos I was always on the run.Well you know just what they say-Just like father then like son.Don't delude me with your sympathy.Cos I can do this on my own.And this will be the last time-That I break down and wanna crawl to bed. “(since Billy has a playlist I found this song choice being on hers instead of his interesting- in fact almost all of Max’s songs are from the 1st person perspective of a boy unlike the other gals.)

Max (comfortably numb)-The child is grown.The dream is gone.I have become comfortably NUMB.

hopper (numb)-Honey, here I go again Down that crooked road of sin.My momma locked me out again And hung me high to rust under the rain I am NUMB( 8x)....Little bluebird at my window Sing a pretty song for me Don't you know that you can fly, fly, fly away Don't you know that you can leave I am numb.

other psych songs

Hopper (life of sin)-Every morning when I rise I look in the mirror (another mirror ref) and despise the sight of everything and all that I've become. The level of my medicating some might find intimidating But that's alright cause' it don't bother me none.

 Max (Moon over marin)- “Dive in my scalding wooden tub (connects to mf/el)...There, wasn't that a nice visit?Don't forget, a psychiatrist is on duty twenty-four hours a day in the blue room...Drink plenty of water when you take these.Now you can relax.” ( I wonder if stranger writers saying to “drink plenty of water” is secretly a line said by a psych person in s4?)

Max (Feeling ok)-My doctor says that I should take it -At least I won't have to keep faking.I know, someday I'll find it-Where I, I least expect it.Today I know I feel ok.

Max ( Going gets tough)-.No home since the fire.Me and the ash can't settle down...So I sink another round-Placebo for pain.And there's no one for to blame . I refuse to accept-That my work is all in vain...Still always remembering .When the going gets tough .That the labor of our love-Will reward us soon enough.

 Max (Comfortably numb)-Hello? (Hello? Hello? Hello?)Is there anybody in there?Just nod if you can hear me.Is there anyone home?Come on now-I hear you're feeling down.Well I can ease your pain .Get you on your feet again.Relax // Now I've got that feeling once again.I can't explain . you would not understand.This is not how I am. I have become comfortably numb.I have become comfortably numb //Okay (okay, okay, okay)Just a little pinprick.There'll be no more, ah .But you may feel a little sick.Can you stand up?I do believe it's working, good.That'll keep you going through the show.Come on it's time to go// Your lips move but I can't hear what you're saying.

Explanations of Why the mf  (WIll the wise)behaves the way he does

demogorgan (ww) (Cowards starved)- friends think of me as a priest.I had to show them that the weakest hands Can still make impressive fires. (aka MF = will the wise)

demogorgan (ww) (Unmerciful):I will be reborn...Tranquil demeanor.Now devoured.Surfacing malice...I can't reconcile the torment others bring unto me.I will not take any reproach.Turning the other cheek.Relentless hatred consumes.Control released.Absolved of all compassion.I am free .Look into my hate filled eyes and tell me What do you see?Surging aura of my rage Paralyzing you in fear.

Demogorgan (ww) (bodies-Beaten why for (why for)?Can't take much more.(Here we go, here we go, here we go).One, nothing wrong with me,Two, nothing wrong with me.Three, nothing wrong with me.Four, nothing wrong with me.One, something's got to give.Two, something's got to give.Three, something's got to give now...You're all by yourself but you're not alone...Driven by hate consumed by fear.

demogrgan (ww)-Orbs used as transmitters carry electromagnetic beams from above (affecting magnetic fields in the show).Silence, manipulated, tortured ...How immune is your system of suffering?Its in the blood of suffering (familial ref).Its in the blood.

 Demogrgan (Monster)-I shoot the lights out..Whoa, just another lonely night...None of who you get it, ain't nobody cold as this.A zombie (will ref) with no conscience .Everybody knows I'm a motherfucking monster. Everybody wanna know what my Achilles' heel is? Love I don't get enough of it.

[inevitably-johnlocked]

Hi Steph! How you’re doing? First of all, I wanna say that I love your lists. So, I was wondering, do you have some long Johnlock fics? Like, with a bunch of chapters and all that. Thank you!

Hey Nonny!! 

I absolutely do! And you know what?? I’m gonna be selfish: No one has ever EVER asked me for my shorter long fics, so I’m going to take this opportunity to finally release this list, because it’s been sitting in my drafts for YEARS lol. BUT you can check the list below for the links to all my longer-fics lists! Happy reading!!

NOVELLA LENGTH FICS: 20-25K

See also:

Novella Length Fics: 25 to 50K (Aug. 2019)

Novel Length Fics: 50 to 100K (Nov. 2018)

Novel Length Fics: 50 to 100K Pt 2 (May 2020)

Novel Length Fics: 100K+ w. (May 2019)

Novel Length Fics: 100K+ w. Pt 2 (Aug 2020)

Through the Clouds by Mazarin221b (E, 20,004 w., 6 Ch. || Retirement, Home Improvement, First Time, Romance) – Sherlock takes a remarkably early retirement at 47, and convinces John that a change of pace would do them both good. They buy an old cottage on the South Downs, and exchange their nonstop life in Baker Street for quiet contemplation, bee studies, and book writing. They might go completely insane, but sometimes it takes stepping outside of the life you're living to find the life you want. Part 1 of Through The Clouds

A Life Well-Lived by Kate_Lear (E, 20,121 w., 1 Ch. || Original Male Character, Sherlock Woos John, Jealous Sherlock, Reluctant Bi-John, Past Abuse, Insecure John, Reassuring / Caring Sherlock, Protective Sherlock, Understanding Sherlock) – John got scared off men by an abusive past relationship. Sherlock has to try and woo him while not scaring him off with protective possessive rage.

The White Lotuses by SilentAuror (E, 20,340 w., 1 Ch. || Slow Burn, Domestic, Romance) – One day John realises that he just isn't where he belongs, which is back at Baker Street with Sherlock. So he goes back and Sherlock, in his own way, courts him. Romance.

Out of the Woods by SilentAuror (E, 20,471 w., 1 Ch. || Post S4, Romance, Slow Burn, Flirting, Drunk Sex, Practical Jokes, POV Sherlock, Bottomlock, Possessive John, Pining Sherlock, Frustrated Wanking, Frottage, Hand Jobs, Blow Jobs, First Kiss/Time, Virgin Sherlock, Love Confessions, Soft Sherlock, Dancing, Bum Appreciation, Hanging out with the Yard) – Sherlock is fairly certain that John has taken to flirting with him of late, but can't be entirely certain of it. At least, not until a case takes them into a forest, along with Lestrade's team and something happens that will change everything about their lives...

You're On the Air by prettysailorsoldier (M, 20,616 w., 1 Ch. || Unilock, Matchmaking, Radio, Christmas, Christmas Fluff, First Kiss, Friends to Lovers, Sherlock POV, Pining Sherlock, Flirting, Bisexual John) – The Consulting Detective and The Woman dominate the airwaves of their university radio station, doling out advice on everything from meeting the parents to sexual positions. When their ratings start to dip before the holidays, however, manager Mike thinks it's time for some fresh blood, and who better to fill in the gaps than rugby captain--and notorious flirt--John Watson? Part 1 of 25 Days of Johnlock

whiskies neat by Ellipsical (E, 20,660 w., 15 Ch. || Alternate First Meeting, POV Second Person Sherlock, Slow Burn, One Night Stand, Rimming, Blow Jobs, Anal, Soldier John, Crying, Emotional Lovemaking, Switchlock) – Home and hearth and whiskies neat, or, alternatively, Sherlock Holmes falls in love.

Achieving the Together-Coloured Instant by teahigh (E, 20,776 w., 1 Ch. || Est. Rel, PTSD, Codependency, Fluff & Angst, H/C, Smut, Demisexual Sherlock, Experiments) – John wonders if this is how it’s going to be: A life speaking in code, because they’re both too stupid to figure out how to say, “I love you.”

Winter's Delights by Kate_Lear (E, 21,173 w., 1 Ch. || Holmes Family, Christmas, Fake Relationship, Friends to Lovers, Bed Sharing, Domestics) – Sherlock takes John home for Christmas to meet the extended Holmes family. Part 1 of Winter's Delights

Once More, With Feeling by cellard00rs (T, 21,178 w., 7 Ch. || John’s Family, Fake Relationship, Romance, Fluff, Humour) – To put off his meddlesome, matchmaking mother, John convinces Sherlock to play the role of his significant other. Unparalleled awkwardness ensues.

Love Is by SilentAuror (E, 21,508 w., 1 Ch. || Angst, UST / URT, Post HLV, Romance) – At Mrs Hudson's urging, Sherlock finally decides to tell John how he feels about him. Part 1 of Love Is

echoes through time by chellefic (E, 21,619 w. || First Time, Romance, ACD & BBC, Epistolary) – Mummy sends a trunk from the Holmes cottage in Sussex to 221B. Its contents alter the way John and Sherlock see themselves and one another.

The Real Meaning of Idioms by feverishsea (T, 21,691 w., 1 Ch. || Texting, Humour, Post S2) - After two weeks away, John finally texts Sherlock. He doesn’t expect Sherlock to respond. He doesn’t expect Sherlock to keep texting him. And he really doesn’t expect things to spiral out of control so rapidly.

5 Times John Got the Girl (and lost her) and 1 Time John Got the Guy (and kept him) by LiviKate (M, 21,695 w., 6 Ch. || 5 and Ones, Kissing, Oblivious / Awkward Sherlock, BAMF / Sexy / Stud John, Embarassed John, John’s Scar, Hurt/Comfort, Jealous Sherlock) – John has always had good luck with the ladies. He's charming, friendly and funny, not to mention great in bed. However, his usual skill with the opposite sex is constantly being thwarted by Sherlock and his outbursts. How will John ever get a leg over when Sherlock is always cockblocking him?

Brief Conversations with the Woman by May_Shepard (E, 21,906 w., 20 Ch. || Pining, Love Fairy Irene, Filler Fic, UST/URT, Drug Use, Clueless Sherlock, Relationship Advice, Angst w/ Happy Ending) – Sherlock has a puzzle to solve, and his name is John Watson.

When to Let Go by KendylGirl (M, 22,109 w., 8 Ch. || Friends to Lovers, Reverse Reichenbach, Sacrifice, Forgiveness, Angst, Love, Implied Drug Use) – What if it were John who had to die to thwart Moriarty's plans? John's supposed death shatters Sherlock, and when he returns, it will challenge the pair to forge a path of forgiveness, to peace, and to find a way back to each other. Part 1 of When to Let Go

A Shipless Ocean by myswordfishmind (M, 22,135 w. 4 Ch. || Post-TRF, John has a Kid) – Ten years after the fall Sherlock goes back to London to find that John no longer lives there. Instead, he resides in a seaside town, a widower, and the father of a seven year old son. Now, Sherlock must struggle with the fact that there may no longer be a place for him in this new world.

Ghost Stories by SwissMiss (M, 22,256 w., 1 Ch. || Pining, Holmes Family, Christmas, Friends to Lovers, Slow Burn, Bed Sharing, Fluff, Hurt/Comfort, First Time) – Sherlock's parents think he and John are a couple. They might be onto something.

The One With the Proposal by kim47 (E, 22,375 w., 3 Ch. || Fluff, Romance, Marriage Proposal) – Proposing shouldn't be this difficult.

Sonatina in G Minor by SilentAuror (E, 22,574 w., 1 Ch. || Case Fic, POV Sherlock, Angst, UST, Sherlock’s Violin, Post-S3, Romance) – John has come back to Baker Street, but Sherlock doesn't understand the strange tension between them, even after he begins teaching John to play the violin at John's request.

Dear John by wendymarlowe (E, 23,031 w., 64 Ch. || Post-TRF, Online Dating, Pining, Epistolary, Cybersex, Long Distance Romance) – With Sherlock dead, John eventually (under duress) makes a profile on an online dating site. And falls into a long-distance relationship with an enigmatic partner who reminds him of Sherlock in all the right ways. (Hint: it turns out to be Sherlock.) Part 1 of Dear John

Knotted by naughtyspirit (E, 23,166 w., 4 Ch. || UST/URT, Cuddling, Sharing Body Heat, Confessions, Kissing, Mastrubation, Frustration, BAMF!John) – John has to cancel a date because of Sherlock's case, which leads them to be tied up in a basement from which they have to escape. They get wet, get tied up close and John has to step up and save them. Because he's pretty. And hot. And just a little bit of a BAMF.

You Can Imagine the Christmas Dinners by ardenteurophile (T, 23,584 w., 9 Ch. || Pre-Slash, Drama, Fluff & Angst, Humour, Romance) – Sherlock takes John along for Christmas dinner with Mycroft and Mummy (And "Anthea", too). Over the course of the evening, John realises that everyone in the room - apart from him - seems to think that he and Sherlock are a couple. Part 2 of Xmas Dinners Verse

Once Upon a Beast Becoming by antietamfalls (T, 24,042 w., 6 Ch. || Beauty and the Beast AU || Magical Realism, Folklore, Celtic Mythology) – An act of pride, a druid’s curse, an enchanted leaf; Sherlock’s torment has lasted an age. Hope arrives in the form of one John Watson, a man uniquely suited to break the spell. But with a single night to win his affections, Sherlock finds his carefully laid plans disrupted by a monstrous killer whose sights are set on the only thing he has left to lose: John.

The Kepler Problem by kinklock (E, 24,270 w., 1 Ch. || Sci-Fi AU, Alien Sherlock, Space Repairman John, Alien Biology, Horny John) – Working in uncharted space exploration was not as exciting as John had hoped, especially when it turned out to be mostly bot maintenance on uninhabited planets. However, the mystery of the repeated, unexplained malfunctions on planet BAK 2212 might turn out to be exactly the kind of adventure he'd been craving.

Maintaining A Personal Life by Gingerhermit (E, 24,284 w., 6 Ch. || Alternating POV’s, Bisexuality, BAMF!John, Jealous Sherlock, Romance / Drama, Sort-of Case Fic, Peril & Angst, Love Confessions, Toplock, Soft Idiots in Love, Post S3) – Sherlock and John discover some interesting revelations about each other’s sexuality, which lead them both to question the assumptions they've made about one another for years. In the midst of their mutual discoveries, a dangerous psychopath looms on the side-lines who threatens to destroy their new beginning.

The Sexual Awakening of Sherlock Holmes and Dr. John Watson by suitesamba (M, 24,579 w., 10 Ch. || Post-TRF, Case Fic, H/C, First Kiss/Time) – Sherlock owes Mycroft a favor. Mycroft calls in that favor by offering Sherlock's consulting services in a charity auction. Sherlock and John soon find themselves at the country manor of Mrs. Ives-Patton Smarmington III - not very coincidentally a long-time friend of Sherlock's mother - where they are reluctant participants in her Murder Mystery Weekend. It's a play within a play for Sherlock and John, and their roles for the weekend event bleed over into their real lives, waking the sleeping dragons within.

Tomorrow's Song by agirlsname (M, 24,645 w., 5 Ch. || Post-TRF, POV Sherlock, Angst with a Happy Ending, Virgin / Repressed Sherlock, Love Confessions, Slow Burn, Pining, Jealous Sherlock) – How can he think a relationship with me would be a good idea? I am the sort of person to take a break from my life and when I come back after two years, I expect to find it exactly as I left it. In reality I find it shattered to pieces. (I actually equate you with my life. When did I start doing that?)

State of Flux by Atiki (E, 24,655 w., 4 Ch. || Sherlock POV, Slow Burn, First Kiss/Time, Friends to Lovers, Frottage, Cuddles and Snuggles, Awkwardness, Insecure/Virgin Sherlock, Romance) – John’s marriage is over and he is finally back home (i.e. at Baker Street, where he belongs). Sherlock is awfully insecure and John is awfully hesitant, and they're both awkward idiots, of course, but they figure it out. Many First Times happen.