#i'd love to discuss that with you!

[starrywangxian]

the next time i see someone say that jc x wwx is wrong on the basis of ignorance of the cultural context, i will flip.

[menlove]

average post about paul mccartney: I want to bend him over and fuck him so hard he starts crying god I hate him so much my beautiful princess

average post about john lennon: estrogen would have saved her. look at her. that's My Wife. she's evil. she's insane. I want her.

average post about george harrison: has anyone ever served this hard? personally, he should have murdered john and paul and ran off to have beautiful bisexual sex forever and ever 🫶

average post about ringo starr: ringo! 🥁

[quicksilversnails]

The Princess contains death within her multitudes, and no vessels embody death and the fear that it inspires more strongly than the Nightmare and Moment of Clarity.

It's a major theme to her route, from how you get to it in the first place - ruminating in fear of what she could be until her presence is enough to make you die of fright - to the Paranoid's chant constantly reminding you of your (perceived) mortality, to her goal to make the world afraid in the same way that she makes you afraid.

Because of the Nightmare's close connection to death, I think there's a lot of interesting comparisons to be drawn between her and the Narrator. I'm writing this post to explore some of their connections and also to spread my vision (TLDR they are foils. To me.)

As we know, the Narrator is characterized by His fear of death, both by His own admission...

...and by the Shifting Mound:

Meanwhile, the Nightmare is defined by the fear she brings, which she acknowledges and seems to relish in:

I think it's noteworthy that the Nightmare wants to inflict this fear onto the world as a whole, unlike many other Princesses who are mainly just focused on you and/or her own personal freedom.

This focus on the world specifically positions her ideology in direct opposition to the Narrator's. The Nightmare wants a world of terror, while the Narrator wants a world void of terror. The Nightmare believes that experiencing fear and suffering is necessary to make the good times meaningful, while the Narrator thinks goodness is self-evident, with forgetting it all being core to the structure of His ideal world.

To accept the Nightmare's vision for the world and leave with her is described as overcoming a fear of the unknown by Shifty:

…and this makes sense - what bigger unknown is there than death? But the Narrator wouldn't see this as something to be celebrated.

To the Narrator, the unknown is always worse than the known. To Him, death is unknowable, uncontrollable, chaotic, horrifying. The cowardly thing to do is accept the unknown, while the heroic thing to do is to fight for something better. This "something better", in His eyes, being the Known: defined by its deterministic, eternally repeating pattern.

Getting back to the Nightmare herself, I think it's telling how much the Narrator HATES her, even more intensely than the average vessel. A great example of this happens just before leaving the cabin with the blade:

Like, this is big for the Narrator! In most routes He goes out of His way to distinguish slaying from killing, but here, His desire to "do things right" is overtaken by the need to see her DEAD.

Also, if you waste the opportunity by not taking the blade with you in the first place, He gets a stiff drink for himself lol

(afaik this is one of only 3 times that he gets a drink… not a common occurrence)

He also briefly seems afraid of Nightmare in her first appearance:

Tbh the screenshot doesn’t do justice to the uncertainty and fear in Jonny's delivery. It's noteworthy to me because the Princess takes on plenty of scary and immediately life-threatening forms throughout the game, but the Narrator usually reacts to the sight of those horrors with indifference or mild indignation, not terror. The Nightmare specifically inspires fear in Him.

And this all comes to a head when she removes her mask, bearing the contents of her heart for you to witness… and he completely gives up.

The sequence leading to the Moment of Clarity is one of the most abstract in the game, and there are plenty of abstract sequences in this game lol. While there are multiple ways to interpret it (and my own interpretation of it has changed many times over time), I do still want to talk about it here because it's so significant to both Nightmare and Narrator's characters.

In my mind, the key to interpreting it is in the inverted linework, which implies that we're seeing things from the Princess' perspective, reflected in the Narrator describing the Princess' experience.

Then, "the complete reality of your existence" refers to the complete reality of the Princess' existence: the capacity to change. And the Nightmare, in all her self-loathing, reveals the darkest, most horrific possibilities of that change. Change as something that hurts everything it touches. As something agonizing to experience and traumatizing to witness. As something that can tear you from the ones you love at any moment, as something that leaves you worse than where you started, as something the world would be better off without.

It all sounds a lot like how the Narrator sees change, doesn't it? "Your existence hurts them" in particular stands out to me as something the Narrator, or the cabin, would say to her directly; the sort of thing she's likely had repeated to her over and over and over throughout her isolation, until deep in her heart she begins to believe it.

The tragic irony of it is that so much of the Princess' suffering is specifically at the hands of the Narrator's construct, and yet she comes to view it as inherent to her own existence. He has convinced her of her own irredeemability. The worms have found their orifices.

(Sidenote but it's neat how the Narrator is occasionally associated with worms. Tower calls Him a "shrivelling little worm stretched beyond its limits", and P&tD's End of Everything poem describes how "the worm in your heart came for us"… which makes this visualization hit that much harder as a representation of the Princess' experience.)

All of this raw emotional vulnerability from the Nightmare seems to stand in total contrast to the Narrator, who withholds himself from you emotionally throughout the game, preventing you from meaningfully connecting with him.

But there's also something about how Nightmare sharing her heart parallels Smitten sharing his heart in the lead-up to HEA. Because HEA Smitten and the Narrator have many parallels of their own, don't they?

All three make some kind of painful sacrifice, revealing a deep vulnerability, in order to force their perspective onto those who experience it. The original Creator goes through death itself - his greatest fear - and inflicts an eternal torment onto his Echoes in order to create His better world, regardless of whether the people of His world would actually want that. The Smitten rips out his heart and calls it a sacrifice in order to give the Princess everything she "doesn't know she wants". The Nightmare takes off her mask, revealing the full weight of her suffering, in order to be let out (not only from the cabin but from her abandonment, from being misunderstood), even if doing so crushes you.

In describing the complete reality of her existence, The Narrator bears witness to everything He'd woven into her, and all the hatred He taught her to feel towards herself. He witnesses the darkest horrors of change, the agony He was so terrified of, and how she experiences all that same agony. And in His creation, the thing He hates and fears more than anything, He also sees a reflection of Himself.

Of course it breaks Him.

If the Nightmare embodies the fear of death, the Moment of Clarity embodies Death itself. If the Nightmare is possibility, MOC is inevitability. If the Nightmare is a dying star, MOC is a black hole.

Like how the Narrator and HEA Smitten become echoes of their original desire, MOC becomes an echo of Nightmare's desires. She is emaciated, her face an empty void. You can't speak to her anymore, can barely engage with her at all. She's more of a memory than a person, and so are you. She has molded you into the tool that she needs, like how the Echo molded TLQ & the Princess into their designated roles, how He also molded Himself into your guide. Time has eroded everything else, but still she remains, now singular in her purpose.

Where the Narrator and the people outside were once consumed by thoughts of oblivion, so too are the voices. They each attempt to grapple with the inevitable in their own ways. They challenge her, run from her, bargain with her, submit to her, romanticize her, philosophize over her, become numb to her.

But you cannot escape from death, from something that only gets closer, and closer, and closer, and closer.

There is no other ending here. There is nothing to do but accept her.

There's something about how TSM describes her as wise, in stark contrast to how she calls the Narrator deluded. I didn't really know what to make of that descriptor when it first got changed, but viewing MOC as death made it click for me, and now it's one of my favourite vessel descriptions.

Where the Narrator wants to change the inevitable, MOC accepts and embraces it. If all the vessels are a reflection of some aspect of the Shifting Mound, MOC reflects the divine wisdom Shifty holds towards death, as well as the inevitability of Shifty herself - the inevitable destination where every route ends, who gently takes the vessels as life leaves their eyes, who always asks for you not to mourn them. (She also reflects all the arms)

....So after all of this, what are we left with? What does all this say about the Narrator and Nightmare?

Well, they're both deeply tied to death and fear. They're diametrically opposed in their beliefs, yet in many ways, they're exactly the same. They're both victims of a cruel world, who then become cruel to others, while also becoming cruel to themselves. They bend you and the world to their will while turning themselves into echoes of what they were.

They're such incredible foils. They're everything to me

[agencypeach]

we rightfully talk about Charles' heart eyes, but we need to talk about how Crystal looks at Niko... that girl is down bad. like she looks at Niko as if she strung the constellations together and all that gay shit... and she isn't really subtle about it either!!!

Niko, of course, has her lingering looks, but she's more subtle (at least to me, but it could be the autism)

thank you, Kassius, for such a natural sapphic performance

edit: brought to you by this amazing gif set!!!

[queen0fm0nsterz]

So, (sits down at the table) (lights up cigarette) are we all ready to discuss how Six's lack of gender conformity in the beginning of the franchise can be read not only as an expression of her nonbinary identity but also an inherent refusal of what their assigned gender requires of her, which is why they are put in contrapposition with the Lady, whose name and role is inherently tied to her identity as a woman, and by refusing to abide to that standard Six challenges not only the structure of the Maw but also the basic concept on which the Lady based her entire life and identity on

[yannig]

I want to explore the garden of Eden metaphor

In episode 5, Paytai and Charan had a talk about the Garden of Eden painting that Charan was doing for the king, about greed and wanting something more when it is forbidden.

@bronte-blues analyzed beautifully, through that original sin metaphor, what that painting and discussion means for each of them.

Last week, @historicallyaccurateweedshoppe noted how Khanin making everyone drink Davichmetha's apple-based cocktail in episode 6 could be seen as him successfully tempting them with the forbidden fruit.

Then @nabi-unveiled expanded on the garden's metaphor by looking at the gardens and territories of every family.

And I want to explore all that more in dept because there are a lot of elements that I think can be analyzed through this lens.

The first thing that should have caught my eye earlier is our dear Ava's name. It's less obvious when talking because it's pronounced more like 'Awa', but put in writing, it becomes very obvious that she's almost called Eve, doesn't it.

And it could be nothing. I don't know where the name comes from in Thai*. But with everything else we've noticed, it's hard to see it as just a coincidence. Like, they really gave us one (1) plot-relevant female character and named her Ava of all things.

Then we've got that entire scene in the bar from episode 6, which, as @historicallyaccurateweedshoppe pointed, feels like a direct reference to Genesis.

There are lots of parallels between Khanin convincing Ava to do things she's never done and the snake convincing Eve to bite into the forbidden fruit, and I'd like to look into it more deeply.

The temptation is in three parts, 3 elements Ava has never allowed herself to try:

Going out to the city/a club: Ava worrying about her father learning where she is

Drinking the apple-based Davicher cocktail: Ava explaining she's never tried the cocktail because she doesn't drink

Dancing: Ava asking "can we do that?" when Khanin proposes to hit the dance floor, like the thought has never even crossed her mind

And every time, Khanin has an answer along the line of "there's no harm in having a bit of fun". Which is enough, all three times, to convince Ava to follow his lead. I don't know if she's easily influenced or if she wants to try all these things, but the result is all the same: she bites into the apple.

And because Eve wouldn't be Eve if she didn't drag a man down with her, she gets the guys to follow suite.

You'll note that Calvin, Ramil, and Paytai are all there with them at the club, but it's Ramil specifically she asks to accompany them. And he agrees.

She gives a rather pointed look to Calvin when she says she'd rather watch others get drunk, which he clearly catches. And the man ends up black out drunk.

And when she gets up to dance, she asks first Calvin and then Paytai to come dance with them - and the second agrees.

That's 3/3. (Not counting Charan here because he's there for Khanin and only him)

I'm not saying that makes either of them Adam, I don't think it's that straightforward - though arguably, they're all Adam - but it's still noteworthy.

Then we've got Khanin and Charan.

Charan also succumbs to all three parts of the temptation, though arguably he came with them for security more than to have fun. But he does accept the drink and end up letting himself go a bit to dance with Khanin, so once again, Khanin wins.

Different level than with Ava, because he is trying to seduce Charan - but same level at the same time, because he is in part chipping at the same education to get them to relax and enjoy life a little.

And of course, we've got the sex scene at the end of episode 7, where Charan finally and fully lets himself succumbs to the temptation he was alluding to when talking about the painting. He gives in to Khanin and his desire for him, he bites the apple, fully, knowingly, purposefully which means he must now get kicked out of Eden.

While we're on the topic of Khanin as the tempter/the snake: the Serpent is of course the symbol of the Bhuchongpisut.

But Khanin's mother was a Bhunchongpisut too wasn't she? He is a Bhuchongpisut just as much (or as little) as he is an Assavadevathin.

(Ramil, in this metaphor, is less the snake than he is Lucifer. but that's a topic for another day)

The Garden of Eden, of course, is both the Palace(s) as a physical place as it is royalty as a concept, and God is King Thipokbowon Assavadevathin.

And everyone is stuck in said Garden (except jay. not sure yet where he stands in this metaphor but he's the only one not stuck in the garden and it will be relevant), in a golden cage of abundance and apparent power that should mean perfect happiness but also comes with arbitrary rules and hierarchy of power that prevent them from getting what they want (love, freedom, recognition, safety).

Which means they must leave or get cast out of the Garden/Monarchy to actually get what they want, which will come with freedom but also pain and loss.

And the need to work, funnily enough. As per the book of Genesis, when God casts out Adam and Eve from Eden, part of their punishment is that they most now work for sustenance, when they previously lived in perfect abundance. Just like young royals who were raised with a silver spoon in their mouth would suddenly need to work were they to be cast out of the royal family.

That dynamic between all of them, the fact that Khanin introduces the temptation but Ava is the one who gets the others to follow suite, is important because the forbidden fruit isn't just love. For Paytai and Charan it might be.

But for the heirs?

The forbidden fruit is the knowledge and freedom necessary to make their own choices. The forbidden fruit is agency.

And they are going to have to work together to get there, because one doesn't just get to walk out of the royal family/the Garden of Eden.

*if anyone has things to add about the meaning of the characters' names, I'd love to hear it! I know @visualtaehyun already explained how Ramil and Paytai's names relate to each other, but I'd love to learn more!

[yaeggravate]

"how does kaeya exist" thread locked after 15879 pages of heated debate

[secriden]

so i wonder if anyone else has thoughts about mame's choices regarding sky vs tongrak's stories and how she tackled the complexity of loving and being loved.

when i first heard about love sea, i saw a lot of people say that fortpeat were just re-cast as sky and prapai but with tongrak being older and richer than mahasamut. personally, i think that's a pretty reductionist view because mame explored the idea of being afraid to love and be loved from very different angles and perspective in these two stories.

i will give that there are some similarities on the surface - peat's character does that whole 'pretends to hate it but secretly loves it' thing; the cat-like 'push and pull' thing and fort's character is still a overly excited, loveable golden retriever of a human being with a strong sense of self; also both sky and tongrak have had experiences which make them both fearful of 'love'.

but i think while sky's main fear is being loved, tongrak's is very much a fear of loving.

like, sky's story is very... raw. it's an exposed nerve, tender and painful and present. sky's fear is so immediately tied to his trauma which he's still in the throes of. the betrayal he faced was from the one who claimed to love him and it's telling that sky's first flashback is not triggered by his feelings FOR prapai but by prapai expressing his 'love' for him. this trauma is intimate and physical and close, but that means that the start of his healing journey can begin because of an external force (prapai) giving him that safety but also physically removing the threat. when sky begins to feel safe again, he is able to begin healing.

in contrast: tongrak's trauma is relatively... hmmm, separated (? not the best word but...) on a physical level. it doesn't make it less or even less painful (or more, or more painful), but his fear of love largely stems from how he sees the people immediately around him being hurt by love. he's internalised the idea that love doesn't last. mahasamut starts confessing his feelings pretty early on; like episode 4 mahasamut straight up goes, 'well you can't stop me from loving you' and tongrak's disapproving but he's not triggered. what's the difference between this and episode 10, i think, is that tongrak's actively fighting his own awareness of his feelings for mahasamut. it's why his fight or flight response is triggered by vie calling him out about his feelings in episode 8 and also why he tries to force parameters back into their relationship (my take: i don't care if you love me but i won't love you) in episode 10. but it's also why his healing doesn't actually come from an external force - yes, vie kind of knocks him out of his depressed stupor by hiding the bracelet, but note that tongrak's has that breakdown realisation ('please come back, i'm sorry, i'm sorry, can't you please come back to me? i'm afraid you'll end up hating me (emphasis added) if you love me') before he has that chat with vie. he's already realised that the root of his fear of mahasamut's love isn't the love itself, but the fear that if he admits his own love for mahasamut, it will eventually get betrayed. it's also why even after he resolves that he wants to try at a relationship with mahasamut, he still can't say it. at this point, his father's a non-entity in terms of the fear of him going after his loved ones - he's already been proven a weakling and a coward and also they're physically on the island so removed from jak that it shouldn't be an immediate fear anymore. no; this struggle is completely internal and it's why we linger on his heartbreaking attempts to confess (also, love sea had some pacing issues but i'm so so grateful they took time to show this part; bless fort for insisting on it!). tongrak's afraid to love but he pushes and pushes himself, and finally breaks through and its entirely on his own terms because of his own strength.

i'm not saying sky's weaker for (in a sense) needing someone else to rescue him before he could heal, but i think it just speaks to mame really telling quite a different story of healing with tongrak.

like... have you ever thought you'd healed from something and then it comes back in an unexpected way but then your response to the trigger is also different? the pain is there but it's... at once deeper but also more distant? a deep pulse rather than a high pitched shriek? and the way you go about beginning this new phase of healing is also different? i think that's whats happening here.

it's fascinating how us humans can fear vulnerability in so many ways, so many forms, on so many levels but i think the lesson mame's stories tell is that sometimes it really is worth it to become vulnerable. not with everyone, and not all the time (goodness, that would be foolish). but also, keep holding onto hope. keep looking for that right person, keep being kind to yourself and others. know that it's ok if your healing feels different, if you didn't catch it some point in the past, its not too late.

you'll be ok.

[littlespoonevan]

rewatching s1 this time around has actually left me sooooo fascinated by buck and abby's relationship??????? bc what we know of it in its aftermath is actually completely visible on screen during the season???

in episode 6 when abby is talking to carla about a potential valentines day date with buck she outright says she's fine with him being a boytoy and it just being something casual so she can feel good in herself again and is almost complaining that buck is taking it so seriously by trying to go slow. and the thing is, i don't think her stance on that ever changes???????

she absolutely cares about him and appreciates him for everything he does for her (both in helping support her with her mom and what he does in helping her find her way back to herself) but i don't think she ever really wanted or needed him to be more than that????

on the flipside, you have buck who's experiencing feelings he's never felt before and is so totally overwhelmed by this woman who's making him realise real connection is possible and it feels a million times better than the way he's vied for people's attention before. and there's something a little heartbreaking in the way he questions if he's ready for it to be something real. because bobby encourages him to step into the relationship fully and in the end he does do that

but abby doesn't really want him to???

so you have buck, fully committed and ready to be the partner he thinks abby needs, and abby, who is so completely unable to be that partner in return because she wants to navigate the next stage of her life alone

and aksdjfh it's just!!!! so!!!!! interesting!!!!!!!!! and i am once again BEGGING someone to make a gifset/video/edit/anything for them with reckless driving by lizzy mcalpine

[artisanscribbles]

Some Oathbound Thoughts

There's a larger post regarding the Order that's still percolating in my head but while I was drafting that post, something occurred to me:

We have very little in text proof that the Shadowborn are as big as a problem as the Order makes them out to be- But do you know where they seem to gather and most attacks happen: The 4 Legendborn Chapters.

This made me start made me start to think about what we know about magic in universe, and also what we know about the Shadowborn.

The Order makes the Shadowborn out to be this huge problem, but Valechez, Patricia and every Rootcrafter we meet treat them as a problem and certainly something to be cautious about, but a known factor.

And none of the Rootcrafters spend their lives at battle-ready mode waiting for the next attack. It's just the Order that does that. But everyone else acts like the Order is the much bigger problem and danger of the two.

But Scions and Squires have been being called ever since the Order's inception to handle all these demon attacks? And we see there is truth to this: The Shadowborn are Undeniably Attacking the Legendborn.

Which begs the question: Why the Order and not the other magic users?

And then it hit me.

The Order of the Roundtable has been around for at minimum, per William, at least 60 Generations. Like with Vera, the spell is somehow bound to the bloodlines. But Vera's bargain is tied to The Shadow King - He cast the Mark and as far we can tell he's been maintaining the Magic required for it to Work. With me so far?

So this begs with question: With Merlin (as far as the text informs us) 100% Dead

WHAT'S POWERING THE SPELL OF ETERNITY?

IT CAN'T BE ARTHUR. EVEN IF MERLIN ANCHORED THE SPELL TO HIM ORIGINALLY LIKE THE CHARM BRACELET (AND WE DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW THIS BTW, EVERYONE IN THE ORDER THINKS ITS THE CASE AND EVERYTHING THE ORDER THINKS IS IMMEDIATELY SUS) CANONICALLY ARTHUR PENDRAGON DOESN'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE MAGIC TO KEEP IT GOING BECAUSE HE CANNOT WORK AETHER (proven by that scene in BloodMarked)

Arthur Pendragon can use the abilities gifted to him by Excalibur and Merlin's original spell, but he can't power it himself. But SOMETHING must be- because as per Sel, aetheric workings can only last so long as the caster can maintain them and live, as as per Valchez and Patricia, all that Power has to be coming from SOMEWHERE EX.1 Bree's whole existence.

Which brings me back to the Shadowborn and the Shadow King's whole deal:

I think Merlin's spell wasn't supposed to last past the OG Table's death. Not originally anyway. Arthur and the Knights were supposed to win decisively and then the portals would be closed forever. And Bree's Bloodwalks seem to support this.

But then, The Table Captures the Shadow King's Crown, and we now Know that is an extremely Powerful Object- but we don't know what happened to it.

Just before Bloodmark's final kicks off, we get the last Arthuriana themed lore drop of the novel- And that is that the last place we saw the Crown was in the OG Table's possession- but not broken and destroyed. IN fact the text seems to support they couldn't destroy it- SO WHERE IS IT? NO ONE IN ORDER HAS EVER HINTED AT SOMETHING LIKE THIS EXISTING- IT'S VALCHEZ THAT FIRST TELLS US ABOUT THE SHADOW COURT TO BEGIN WITH.

And then we remember Morgaine Had A Plan to use the Crown somehow. Now, of course, we don't get to hear exactly what that was because Bree had some shit to work out, but I think its important that we know about that it because it provides a reason for the concentrated Shadowborn attacks on the Legendborn and also a reason for the King to still be kicking around. The Shadowborn harry the Order so hard because the original War never stopped, it just changed.

The King seems to a bit like Sauron - separated from his Crown, he's a shadow of himself (excuse my bad pun), still powerful, but limited in scope. There's no reason for a long game otherwise. But if he were trying to get his Crown back? Because the Order STILL HAD IT?

Well, that would re-contextualize a few things, wouldn't it?

[withthewindinherfootsteps]

So we know that Wei Wuxian's treatment after his death was horrible. Even if nothing could impact him directly, there was still neverending slander, hatred, misinformation, theft...

But, for a while after he died, the sects did try to impact him directly – namely, frequently trying to resummon his soul. And today I'll explore the possible reasons for this, their likelihoods, and why I'm so, so thankful that Wei Wuxian's soul managed to resist the summons. Because, spoiler alert (or, you know. maybe not)... none of them are good.

(Long meta ahead)

In my opinion, there are four likely motivations for this: confinement, coercion, torment, and potentially destruction.

Out of all of these, confinement is probably the most likely motivation, at least for most sects (Jins and Jiangs excluded, though it was likely what the Jin sect said their motivations were – but I'll get to them later). This one is the most simple – we know spirit-trapping pouches exist, and we know the sects also placed 120 stone beasts on the Burial Mounds to prevent Wei Wuxian's soul from escaping. Therefore, this seems to be the most likely motivation – and fortunately for Wei Wuxian, probably also the best case scenario, though it still certainly isn't a good one.

For the second, coercion – this is where the Jin sect come in (more specifically Jin Guangshan with the help of Jin Guangyao). Due to their wealth and resources, they're likely the sect who played the largest role in the soul-summoning rituals. We know what they're willing to do to try to gain power – keeping Wen Ning under the pretence he was burned to death and trying to control him with the nails, and working with and helping Xue Yang torture people to help him refine his demonic cultivation, in order to have the Yin hufu fixed. Along with working with many other cultivators, alongside Xue Yang – Jin Guangshan really, really wanted that seal.

And so, Jin GuangShan sought after all those who imitated Wei WuXian in cultivating the ghostly path and gathered them under his rule. He spent a great amount of money and resources and these people, ordering them to study and analyze the structure of the Tiger Seal in secrecy so that they could replicate and restore it. - Villainous Friends extra, EXR

(Note that working with these cultivators very likely happened after Wei Wuxian's soul had failed to be summoned, since this happens some time after Wei Wuxian's death, whereas the soul-summoning ceromonies presumably started happening very close to it.)

In the previous paragraph, he's also quoted as having 'lusted after' the Yin hufu, which we already knew but it's nice to have a direct quote as evidence.

Now, would Wei WuXian willingly work with the Jin sect in doing this? No. We know that, and, given Wei Wuxian's actions in his first life (refusing to hand over the Tally, not being afraid to stand up to the sects, etc), I’m pretty sure Jin Guangshan knows that, too:

He beat around the bush a couple of times, using all his skills, yet Wei WuXian didn’t give in no matter what, and it made him run into a bunch of obstacles. - Villainous Friends extra, EXR

So this could actually make things go two ways. One, I'm wrong and that wasn't actually part of the Jin sect's motivations, since they know they wouldn't be able to control him (and in that case, had they managed to summon him, I could imagine them putting him in a spirit-trapping pouch and doing something similar to what Jin Guangyao did to Nie Mingjue's head. Which, also, not good). Two, it was a part of their motivations, and they hoped to find a way around that. After all, there are other guidao users out there now, and Wei Wuxian would now be a gui*. Also, cultivators can obviously harm ghosts – see the very existence of Night Hunts, and I'd include Xue Yang's talisman-caused destruction of A-Qing as well (while he isn't a traditional cultivator, talismans can be used by everyone).

Now, would either of these methods actually work? I'm inclined to think not really (and I expand on the former method in a note below). Would that stop Jin Guangshan/Jin Guangyao/the cultivators they employ from trying? Especially considering Jin Guangshan's lust for power?

I'm inclined to think no, too.

For the third, look no further than Jiang Cheng's reputation of capturing and torturing demonic cultivators after Wei Wuxian's death, due to thinking they could be him. And this does happen – Jin Ling knows and talks about it, and there's not real motivation for him to negatively lie about someone he loves. Also, when they come across each other at Dafan Mountain, we're told this in Jiang Cheng's inner voice:

A moment ago, Jiang Cheng was certain that this person was Wei WuXian, and all of the blood in his body started to boil. Yet, now, Zidian was clearly telling him that he wasn’t. Zidian definitely wouldn’t deceive him or make a mistake, so he quickly calmed himself and thought, this doesn’t mean anything. I should first find an excuse to take him back and use every possible method to get information out of him. It’s impossible for him to not confess anything or give himself away. I’ve done things like this in the past anyways. - MDZS Chapter 10, EXR translation

This mainly shows that he's tortured people before, rather than that he's tortured people because he thinks they're Wei Wuxian, but this reason is confirmed by Jin Ling in Chapter 24. Of course, the reason is also mentioned in this chapter, and there are other moments in the chapter that illustrate my point better**, but they come from second-hand sources which I know are easier to deny. Do take note of Jiang Cheng's expression both times he comes across 'Mo Xuanyu' (after he suspects he's Wei Wuxian) in Book One***, though:

After a moment, the corners of Jiang Cheng’s lips pulled into a twisted smile. His left hand started to unconsciously stroke the ring [Zidian] again. He spoke softly, “… Well, well. So you’re back?” - Chapter 10, EXR Although his face had always been clouded, marked with arrogance and satire, it seemed as if every corner of it had come alive. It was difficult to determine whether it was vengeful wrath, fathomless hatred, or raving ecstasy. - Chapter 23, EXR

This does seem to line up with what people say his attitude to Wei Wuxian is – there doesn't seem to be any happiness at seeing him again at all. The only time a word that could suggest that ('ecstasy') is used, it's accompanied by 'raving', and considering the context and the other possibilities of his expression, it's... probably not due to happiness at being reunited.

So, considering 1) this, 2) his contribution to the Siege specifically intended to kill Wei Wuxian, and 3) that at the time of frequent soul-summoning Jiang Yanli's death would be even closer for him, I feel pretty confident in saying that yes, this is likely a motivation for the Jiang sect in trying to re-summon Wei Wuxian's soul after his death. And, as mentioned earlier, cultivators can harm ghosts (and we know Zidian is able to remove souls posessing a body from that body, and that Jiang Cheng used Zidian on 'Mo Xuanyu' in Chapter 10. If it wasn't able to restrain/harm ghosts, or other methods weren't able to, why would he risk Wei Wuxian's soul escaping?).

And finally, option four: destruction. We're heading into much more speculative territory here, so don't consider this on par with the first three. But consider this:

We know there are some spells, like Xue Yang's talisman used on A-Qing and the body-offering ritual, that can ruin the returning soul’s reincarnation cycle by destroying it. Therefore, soul destruction is possible.

The 'main'/supposed reason for summoning Wei Wuxian's soul back is to stop the "cultivation world, or even all of mortal land" from being "faced with the most insane damnation and revenge, sinking into nothing but chaos and despair" when Wei Wuxian inevitably returns. While, as mentioned above, I severely doubt this is the motivation for certain sects – and to me is likely a rumour which the Jins (again, especially Jin Guangsha) fanned the flames of to justify summoning Wei Wuxian back for their own purposes**** – there are other sects which would take it more seriously.

Although likely disrespectful, people already thought it served Wei Wuxian right to die without his body intact by the time of the second siege – something believed to negatively affect your reincarnation in your next life*****. This is only the logical next step, and I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people would believe that, again, it would serve Wei Wuxian right, or would at least lead to less harm of the world in the long run.

For these reasons, I could definitely see this as an option for some sects, especially the sects who consider themselves more 'righteous' (cough cough the Nies under Nie Mingjue cough cough). After all, evil is evil and good is good, and the evil deserve what's coming to them. And what better way to prevent that than from preventing his soul from returning at all? So for the Nie sect – and likely some of the smaller sects involved in the Siege, since among them, additudes probably vary – yes, I do think it could be a motivation.

I’m not as sure about the Lans being willing to go this far, and that’s largely for two reasons. One, Lan Wangji’s presence and his relationship to Lan Xichen, who does (not always, but he does) let this affect how he treats Wei Wuxian. An example of this is that, when Wei Wuxian's return is made public, Lan Xichen does let him hide and shelter at the Cloud Recesses instead of trying to pursue him, likely majorly due to Lan Wangji. I'd argue that the aftermath of the Nightless City also acts as an example of this, although it definitely isn't perfect. But though he, Lan Qiren and the 33 elders do come to find Lan Wangji and do not let him continue to shelter Wei Wuxian (after they see Lan Wangji's feelings), Lan Xichen doesn't use this opportunity to kill/capture Wei Wuxian, despite Lan Wangji being in a worse condition due to having fought 33 elders, Wei Wuxian being catatonic, and Lan Qiren likely supporting this outcome (especially considering he was the one who led the Lan sect in the Siege – chapter 68, Wei Wuxian's POV). And he did let Lan Wangji take Wei Wuxian back to the Burial Mounds after:

After he went out of his way to send you back to Burial Mound and returned in such low spirits to receive his punishment, how long he kneeled before the Wall of Rules! - Chapter 99, EXR

Again, this was right after the Nightless City massacre – there isn't any goodwill towards Wei Wuxian at this point in time.

Of course, the Lan sect did participate in the siege after Lan Xichen knew of Lan Wangji's feelings towards Wei Wuxian, which Lan Xichen was no doubt a part of (although Lan Qiren lead the Lan sect in the siege, Lan XIchen had to have at least known/given his support, if not participated.) And it should be considered that Lan Xichen letting Wei Wuxian shelter at the Cloud Recesses was after Wei Wuxian had been back for a while, and had not caused the downfall of the Cultivation World, like many suspected he would after his death. And of course, as stated previously, his handling of the aftermath of Nightless City wasn't perfect either (though please note that his main motive here was to protect Lan Wangji from being potentially executed, rather than anything about Wei Wuxian himself). So caring about Lan Wangji doesn't mean he won't harm Wei Wuxian. But I do think he could find bringing Wei Wuxian's soul back to completely destroy it a bit excessive. There is, though, the chance that the elders of the Lan Sect would react to this differently, and of course they would have a sway on both Lan Xichen and the Lan sect as well.

The second reason is smaller, but there seems to be more focus in the Lan sect than in others when it comes to letting ghosts rest peacefully/helping them move on. And that could definitely lead to more resistance to the idea of summoning a soul back to destroy it as well, which could especially impact the elders. So I'd assume that the Lan sect would be the most likely sect to summon Wei Wuxian's soul back just for confinement, or just for some way of making sure any resentment is disippated, his spirit moves on, and he can't cause more harm to the world (eg via Inquiry)******. Not that he would or does as a ghost or as a reborn person, but that's unfortunately not relevant to this.

But yes, as a motivation for the Nie Mingjue-led Nie sect? Absolutely.

So, these are the main motives I suspect to be behind the attempted summoning of Wei Wuxian's soul after his death (and if I've missed any, please let me know – I'd love to have a discussion). And, of course, none of them lead to anywhere good. Because of course it wasn’t enough to besiege Wei Wuxian, murder the 50 non-combatants he was responsible for (and throwing them into the blood pit as a mark of disrespect because why not?), and lead to his death via him getting torn apart. It wasn’t enough to steal all his inventions, and use them commonly while still slandering him with no reprieve – or to steal his notes and give them to people like Xue Yang to study (Villainous Friends, again) and to use for their own, extremely extremely harmful, purposes. Of course, the cultivation world has to try to harm Wei Wuxian after death as well ((:

We don't know whether Wei Wuxian rejecting the summoning ceremonies was conscious or unconscious, but if it was the former, these are very likely reasons he refused to return in this way. If it was unconscious – for example, maybe during the frequent soul-summons his soul was in a weakened state due to him dying from a backlash of resentful energy and getting torn apart, and it healed over time but not before the soul-summoning rituals stopped – well, I can only be thankful.

Finally, let me leave you on the thought that – although it may well have happened since we don't spend much time in the immediate aftermath of the Sunshot campaign – there isn't even any textual mention of this happening to Wen Ruohan. Who, while not being a guidao user, was still very dangerous, still an extremely powerful cultivator, and still had a lot of reason to feel resentment. So.

:')

Thank you for reading!

--

*Considering what we see of how Wei Wuxian's guidao functions – redirecting the ghosts'/corpses' resentment into doing something they'd want to do, eg attacking people, and directing it towards a target – I'm not sure using it to force a spirit to do something 1) extremely specific, and 2) explicitly against their will would actually work. Iirc the closest thing we get to this in text is Wei Wuxian using the corpses of Wens to attack other Wens in the Sunshot Campaign, but he's still just directing their resentment to a target of his choice, and fierce corpses do tend to be on the less concious side of things (hence why Wei Wuxian had to awaken Wen Ning's consciousness). Considering how Wen Ning attacks Wei Wuxian and the Burial Mound Wens before his consciousness had fully awoken, I... really don't think those fierce corpses were able to differentiate (or didn't care).

Meanwhile, ghosts seem to be a bit more in control of themselves – see A-Qing, and Wei Wuxian's own descriptions of his ghost self.

That, alongside ghost!Wei Wuxian being able to resist his soul-summoning and the fact that pretty much all of the new guidao users are a lot weaker than he was, does make me think that this this wouldn't work. I do wonder about Xue Yang, since his methods are pretty different as well, but he's more of a modao user than a guidao user (he controls living corpses rather than dead people) and I don't think you can insert physical nails into ghosts?? Though if he was specifically instructed to figure out some way to control ghost!Wei Wuxian (who's probably kept in a spirit-trapping pouch in this scenario), he might be able to do something at least. Though also he was also struggling to piece Xiao Xingchen's ghost soul back together, so he may struggle with those areas?

Well, whatever the potential outcome, I'm so so happy once again that Wei Wuxian's soul managed to resist the soul-summonings...

**Mainly this:

Everyone in the cultivation world knew that the young leader of the Jiang Clan watched out for Wei WuXian in an almost crazed manner. He would rather catch the wrong person than let go of any possibility, and took anyone who seemed like they held the soul of Wei WuXian away to the YunmengJiang Sect, inflicting severe torture on his victim. If he wanted to take someone back, the opposition would surely lose half of their life. - Chapter 10, EXR

But I have heard people say 'you can't prove that it's just more rumours' before, and I wanted my evidence to be as watertight as possible.

(And, off-topic... isn't it really sad how Jiang Cheng, in the present day, is described as young? Because, for a clan leader, he is. And another thing he is, is close in age to Wei Wuxian – who was killed 13 whole years prior :') )

***And do note that the only other time they run into each other before Wei Wuxian's identity is revealed to the world apart from this is their brief interaction at Jinlintai, where he can't just act however he wants. The next time they run into each other after it, Jiang Cheng is literally taking part in another siege against him, and still extremely hostile ("surrounded by hostile energy, face insidious, staring straight at him" – from EXR chapter 60). Then he loses his spiritual powers and can't do anything. By the time he regains his powers, Wei Wuxian, Lan Wangji and the Wen remnants' corpses have saved everyone during the Second Siege, and though public opinion hasn't properly shifted quite yet, it will soon after Sisi and Bicao tell the story of Jin Guangyao, and voila, a new scapegoat (do note that he doesn't completely bar Wei Wuxian from entering Lotus Pier after the Second Siege, though). Plus, throughout it all, Lan Wangji is still constantly present, which makes it hard for Jiang Cheng to really do anything. And then he's finally faced with the Golden Core reveal, which does alter his motivations towards Wei Wuxian (obviously the resentment is still there – read chapter 102 – but it's also mixed with other complex emotions, and he seems to start being able to move away from that a little in Chapter 103). I still definitely wouldn't describe Jiang Cheng's attitude towards him as positive, but it isn't at the point it was at the start of the novel (eg Chapter 10).

But even if his attitude does change, or would for whatever other reason apart from the reveal, that still doesn't change an initial motivation so isn't relevant to this meta. We know his intentions at the start.

****It's also possible they may have originated it, but I think WWX's reputation was bad enough for it to form naturally. Though you can trace a major part of that back to them, too.

*****That belief isn't outright stated in MDZS, but the fact people are specifically talking about the status of WWX's body in the aftermath of his death suggests that this belief does have some grounding in the MDZS universe, at least? And we know MXTX has included it in TGCF (though that doesn't mean it's definitely in MDZS), so she has used it in her works. If this isn't the case in the MDZS universe I am sorry (although that could also mean there's less importance placed on not disturbing the reincarnation cycle in the world of MDZS...? Which would work towards my original argument) – I don't want to spread misinformation that something is definitely true, I just think there's evidence to suggest it is true, which isn't the same thing.

******Again, I think this would depend on who ends up having more influence over who in the Lan sect. After all, normal resentful spirits only do what they do because of their resentment in death, whereas Wei Wuxian is 'dangerous' because of who everyone thinks he was in life – so him being reborn naturally could also 'cause a lot of harm to the world' during the time period this version of him would live in, unlike the resentful ghosts they appease. This could definitely lead to many advocating for confinement, I think.

[sly-s-n0nfusion]

Irl world inspirations for Orsterra and Solistia 🗺 pt1

So I've wanted to write this post for a while and I think I finally feel comfortable enough to do so. I will cover the 8 Orsterra regions as well as Solistia's regions, and also declare a hypothetical irl nationality for all 16 travelers, since some of them aren't native to their starting region.

I won't be covering COTC content because I feel like it does make quite a mess especially regarding the Woodlands. A huge thank you to my friends @sazuka57, @legendaryandroid, @hanpaopaoo, @saarovar, @silverwarewolf, @captwaddledoo, @postalninja and others

Of course, this is just the final product of speculations and none of the info here are official/canon, but I hope this post does help any content creator with their art or writing :)

Orsterra

the Frostlands: The cold regions were perhaps the hardest place to pinpoint a clear irl world inspiration for. The Frostlands could be Finland (Lapland), even though the Flamesgrace church is clearly of catholic inspiration. We know that Ophilia Clement isn't native of Flamesgrace, but she was taken in by Archbishop Josef for she was an orphan. I would even say her name and surname were given to her by the Archbishop himself, since they sound like names members of the clergy would give orphans (especially the surname, Clement, which is similar to orphans' surnames like Innocent, or Godswill). In the Octopath official Guide book timeline is stated that she comes from a small village named Creek, in the Riverlands

Lapland, Finland

the Flatlands: Given how the Flatlands are a kingdom of their own (the kingdom of Wold) with their capital city being Atlasdam and featuring a Royal Palace and a king, I think it's safe to say that the inspiration for this region was England. Atlasdam probably mimics a place like Oxford or Cambridge, given its academic nature and the vaste grassy areas, with Whispermill's flocks of sheeps and mills, give off British countryside vibes. Also because of his name and accent, Cyrus Albright sounds British to the core

Oxford, England

the Coastlands: I believe the inspiration for the Coastlands are the coasts of Italy, especially Liguria's Cinque Terre. Rippletide, Goldshore and Grandport all seem to have the same similar aesthetic to it of Italian harbour towns. Tressa Colzione, as well as her parents Olneo and Marina all have names of Italian inspiration

Cinque Terre, Italy

the Highlands/Hornburg: The inspiration for both the Highlands and Hornburg is probably Southern Germany or Austria (Bavaria/Austrian Alps) because of the very high mountains and German-sounding names. Olberic Eisenberg comes from Hornburg, Erhardt comes from Grynd (which was stated to be a village near Hornburg) so it's safe to say both have germanic origins

Austrian Alps

the Sunlands: This region is probably of Middle Eastern/Arabic inspiration, and it's understandable because of the architecture, the villagers' clothing style and the spice markets around the Sunland towns, to say some. Primrose Azelhart, however, is native of Noblecourt, in the Flatlands, so she probably also has British origins like Cyrus

Palangan, Iran

the Riverlands: This one was a bit tricky to understand. A very green land, rich in water and with catholic influences (Saintsbridge) immediately made me think of Ireland. Not clearer evidence I can bring to the table other than that though. Irish Alfyn Greengrass does sound right to me though

Westport, Ireland

the Cliftlands: The Cliftlands seem to have Peruvian inspiration to them. The local monsters encounters being big eagles/condors, the villagers having colorful cloths in their houses and the main local resource being alpaca fleece (I know I said I wouldn't bring up COTC in my argumentations but I'cirlo was a clear example of alpaca farms). We don't know much about Therion as he is likely an orphan as well but his poncho also might be of Peruvian inspiration

Peruvian Andes

the Woodlands: The Woodlands are heavily inspired by Norse culture and Viking architectures. the village of S'warkii especially, where H'aanit and Z'aanta come from, is clearly inspired by the village of Njardarheimr, in Norway

Njardarheimr

Part 2 (Solistia) coming soon!!

[seizingthoughts]

It was so long ago that I forgot...

But Ghost Writer from Danny Phantom is legitimately hot. He's got it.

[cementcornfield]

Joe: posts

Ja'Marr: my boy, my guy, my step brother 😤

[solanj]

sometimes in the fandom you see some art that is SO beautifully made but goes SO against the grain of how you perceive the drawn character(s) like I want to reblog it so much because it's so visually gorgeous and the artist is amazing and deserves to know this but I'll fucking die before letting that particular interpretation of the character(s) anywhere near my blog

[eliyahu613]

One Challenge For People Who Deny Transandrophobia

I have one challenge for anyone and everyone who denies transandrophobia for any reason that has to do with transmasc advocacy allegedly harming trans women. Seeing as you all are very adamant in your stance against trans men demanding basic respect in queer spaces, this should not be difficult for you to do if you have thought about your reasoning for holding such opinions.

My challenge for all of you is to answer this one question:

What is one way that transmasc activism harms trans women directly, or is transmisogynistic in some way?

Now, because I know that some people will put together words that don't make sense to avoid answering the question but sound intellectual, here are some logical fallacies that your answer must avoid for me to consider it completing the challenge:

You must not include any criticism of the word transandrophobia that does not meaningfully engage with the activism and discussions that trans men have been having.

No comparisons to any sort of hate groups (MRAs, TERFs, etc). Point out the specific ideas that you disagree with instead of saying "this is just like [x]."

You cannot cherry-pick the concept of intersectionality or cite any particular white woman's interpretation of the ideas proposed by Kimberle Crenshaw to discredit transmasc advocacy without engaging with the new ideas we have put forth.

No whataboutisms; do not base your argument around the idea that trans women should be centered in trans men's spaces and discussions.

Avoid making use of a strawman. Try to think of the most compelling argument you've seen for the existence of transandrophobia and refute that instead of trying to attack the weakest possible argument (that probably hasn't been made in good faith).

Acknowledge the fact that closeted, non-passing, and passing trans men exist, and do not treat non-passing trans men as having a less legitimate male or trans experience than those who pass. Don't bring up passing trans men to say that all trans men have male privilege, because just like trans women, trans men who pass still face transphobia.

No projection of cisgender dynamics of gender and sexuality onto trans spaces, as while those aren't totally irrelevant, they are irrelevant to whether or not transandrophobia is a thing that exists.

Acknowledge that trans men are oppressed by misogyny, just like trans women and transfems are. Also, acknowledge the existence of intersex trans men and trans men of color.

Don't bring up individual trans men who have done certain bad things that do not implicate the entire area of transmasc activism or transandrophobia theory.

Do not mention Israel or Palestine, or bring up other irrelevant issues that you may disagree with me or other prominent trans men in these spaces on.

As stated, all that I am looking for is one (1) argument. I have searched through a lot of posts, a lot of articles about this subject, yet I have not found one coherent argument that avoids basic logical fallacies and doesn't just throw words together to sound like it's refuting anything. I can and will respond to all of the arguments that I get that fit this criteria. You can send them to me in asks or in the notes of this post.