#lazarus madness

[amayanott]

Damian Wayne's Eyes + Lazarus Pit Genes Headcanon

Okay, so I was writing a chapter for my fanfic (the plot does not have much to do with the headcanon tho), and I was making a point on how all of Bruce's sons had black hair and blue eyes.

However, there's this issue in the fandom you all know about Damian's eyes being either blue like Bruce's or green like Talia's. You know the drill, ethnic representation and etc.

(Before we continue, I'm Arab myself, okay? So I DO know what I'm talking about).

So we all know Damian's eye color is inconsistent through DC Comics and Cartoons.

In the Wayne Family adventures he has brown eyes, in Son of Batman green eyes and in Outlaws he has blue eyes. Then he got green eyes in his own Robin (2021) series, but had blue eyes in Supersons.

My point is, I had trouble depicting his eyes, and then I decided to throw some imagination in it.

So, Ra's must have taken a few Lazarus Pit baths before he conceived Talia. And then his genes must have been affected by it. That's why Talia has both brown and green eyes, because when she experiences strong emotions (not necessarily anger) they turn green. Like, just the feeling of adrenaline could change the color of her eyes, for example.

And I mean, Talia's mom was Chinese after all. It was more probable that she got brown eyes or black ones rather than green. But we could say she's always on edge, mad, etc. and that's why they are green.

With Damian it's similar. His eyes when he first opened his eyes at birth were like Bruce's: dark blue. Sapphire. Then, as he grew up and Talia's genes (from Ra's) kicked in, he got green-eyed whenever angry. And the guy is almost always angry. So when he first arrived to the BatFam, his eyes almost always looked green, especially around Tim, for example. But Bruce and Dick are always sure they are blue despite that. So they do the math and voilà, his eyes' color fluctuates depending on his mood. And the longer he lives with Bruce and the others, the longer his eyes stay blue.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Bonus: if Jason had kids, no matter the eye color they get (let's say blue), they will also get green-eyed when they get angry, although they wouldn't get the Pit's Madness TM.

Honestly, there's so much potential with anything related to the Lazarus Pit and its effects on genetics, it's a shame no one bothers to play with it a bit.

[ghost-bxrd]

Wjat if the Lazeros Pit manifested in a kind of "voice " in Jasons head, kind of like a venom symbiote? The other effects of the pit is still there but with a twist when the pits in control his eyes and viens glow green while his voice gets a more echoey . Maybe the other bats find out when they accidentally get hit by a telepathy spell and only find out when jason is talking to "himself".

It would certainly help them understand a bit more about what Jason is going through and has to wrestle with on the daily.

The Lazarus Pit is more of an abstract concept to them than anything. I mean, Ra's wouldn't exactly permit them to study the pits, right? So all they do know comes mostly second hand... or from Jason. Who tends to be rather tight lipped about it.

Having it be a literal second "person" in his head that he's in constant quarrel with... well, there are certainly parallels with Harvey Dent to consider there. But mostly it's a bit relieving for them to know that not everything that Jason does as Red Hood can be attributed solely to him. Especially the more gruesome things, like the heads in a duffle bag incident.

[forgotten-daydreamer]

i may add a chapter to this in a few days since many asked for the continuation both here and on AO3 :)

[charlietheepicwriter7]

H̵̩͋o̸̹͒l̶̢̑ď̸͕ ̵͔͛T̴̲̄h̶͙͋e̶̤͘m̵͍̋ ̷͓̈D̵̯͛o̶̡̅w̵̖̃n̵͝ͅ

Get in the Water AU: Original Post Ruthlessness

Ghosts were physiologically different from humans.

It was something Tucker and Sam didn't understand. They saw Phantom as "Danny with superpowers," not as a fundamentally different being.

Sometimes, Danny didn't understand either.

But his parents did. Utter disregard for the scientific method aside, the Fentons were the ones who learned how inhuman ghosts were: "Just emotions and electricity imprinted on ectoplasm, Danno, nothing to be scared of!" Snapshots of people at the moments of their deaths. The past and the present, incapable of contemplating the future.

And with his duality, Danny struggled to understand either of his halves.

As a human, Danny could move past his nightmare of a childhood, compartmentalize and think to the future, when he was fully healed and his past couldn't hurt him anymore. So when Dora, first elected Queen of the Infinite Realms - long may she reign - asked him to collect all the resurrected humans for a health check and assessment... when he'd noticed Damian Al Ghul-Wanye on the list... He'd thought up a little prank to pull on his long-lost brother. A cruel one, perhaps, but nothing harmful.

As a ghost, Danny couldn't move on. He could never forget that Sam led him to his death, that his parents negligence allowed for the stage to be set, that the lab they loved so much held both his home and his grave. Just as Danny would always be that fourteen year old, caught in that moments, he was still the 7-year-old Danyal Al Ghul who trusted his brother not to hurt him... and ended up poisoned.

Phantom wanted his murderer to suffer.

And Danny, much to his shame, had allowed it.

For a few weeks, Danny managed to ignore it. He'd gone after Damian first, so there were tons of resurrected on his list. He started with the more extreme cases first, like Constantine, but soon enough the next on his list was Ra's Al Ghul.

He'd asked Queen Dora to send someone else, anyone else. That he wouldn't be able to control himself if he saw his grandfather again. Instead of relieving him, she'd given him a knowing look and told him to follow his core's desire.

She never mentions it, but Queen Dora had been a murder victim too.

There was no showmanship, no dramatic reveal. Just Danyal, his grandfather, and the Pit.

Despite all Ra's Al Ghul's power, he was no match for a spirit hellbent on drowning him.

That's what Danny did to his grandfather. He'd thrown up afterwards, once he was human before. But the ghost in him relished the act; he could still feel Grandfather's throat under his hands, pulse fluttering against his palm as Danyal held him down. He struggled and shook as the Lazarus waters filled his lungs, burning away healthy tissue. Fingernails morphed into claws that sliced through the tender skin, blood leaking into the water, and water leaking into the blood.

It took a long time for Grandfather to die. Deep within Danny, next to his core, he knew it was what was deserved. That the murdered finally had justice. He was content with never speaking of it again, a secret between him and the waters.

And now it was going to happen again as Phantom's impulsive mind overtook Fenton's tactical one.

He'd known Damian was looking into him. Knew another confrontation was inevitable, what with two more of his siblings needing their health checks. But as Danny was stalking their mother, searching for the best way to abduct her (she was still his mother after all, he didn't want her dead... yet), Damian and his family confronted her.

Relief washed over him as only a normal amount of rage bubbled up at the sight of Damian, instead of the overwhelming, all-consuming fury he'd felt. Danny laughed at their arguments, at Constantine thinking he could put a living ghost to rest, at his siblings-unmet and his father-unknown, until...

Damian confessed.

His murderer confessed, yet as he continued to speak, to explain, the fury rose in him again. Because it wasn't a betrayal. He'd always thought Damian betrayed him, but no.

Through his own ruthlessness, Damian gave him the only mercy he could manage. And there was only one thing Danyal wanted now.

""̸̲̈́T̶͘͜ä̵̢li̸a̶̬̓ ̴̬̐A̵̛̪l̸̲̚ G̸̛̫h̶̺̏u̸̢̚l!̴̳̈́ D̷̩̕o̸͛ͅ ̶̝̍y̴͙͘o̵̙͐u̵̬̓ ̴̤͂k̸̡̑n̵͓̈́o̷͈͝w̷͖͂ ̷͓͑w̴̧̄h̵̲͌o̴̮̔ ̵̼́Ị̷̂ ̷̣̽a̵̳̓m̷̩̓?̷̝͒"̷̧͠"

It was her fault. She was the reason why he was dead, nothing more than a coward who couldn't go against her father for the sake of her children. She abused them, she struck his brother, it was her fault-

"Danyal," she answered. And Danyal grinned, fanged and sharp.

He approached, the waters of his birthplace lovingly brushing against his legs, consoling him the only way they knew how. They whispered revenge into his ears, madness into his heart, just as they had when he'd confronted Damian, when he murdered Grandfather. "You have much to answer for, daughter of the Demon Head," he said, voice echoing around the room.

Unrestrained greed filled her gaze. "You've returned to me, my son."

Danyal laughed, brutal and rough. "I've returned for you, Mother," he corrected. "Don't think this reunion will end well for you."

"You mean to hurt me, Danyal?" she crooned, all false hurt and fake love.

"I mean to kill you."

Genuine anger flashed across her face. "My son would never-"

"Y̵̺̆o̴̩͂u̸͉̕r̷̰͝ ̴͔͝s̵̡̉o̶̡̎ň̵̞ ̶̗̈i̴̘̍s ̸̦̐d̴̯̚ê̶͚á̶̩d̷̻̈́," he snarled, and Damian flinched. He was too close to Talia. "You wanted me dead... for being weak. For having mercy." He stared up at his mother's shocked form. "I killed Grandfather. Tell me, is that ruthless enough for you, Umi?" Talia flinched with just her eyes. He hadn't been allowed to call her Umi since he was three.

Their father stepped forward, the naked distress on his face contrasting with his battle armor. "Danyal," he plead. "You don't have to do this-"

"Stay out of this, Baba." The man's breathing hitched. "This doesn't involve you."

Constantine tried to talk him down next. "It does, kid. A Siren on your level can't stay around for long. It's time for you to rest."

Danyal threw back his head and laughed. "As if you could stop me, exorcist." No more delays. It's time for action. "I will drown you all before you can."

Danyal lunged. And despite his mother's decades as an assassin, she couldn't kill what was already dead.

He held her down by the throat, the attacks from Damian's family bouncing off him. "This is mercy," he cooed as she desperately clawed at his hands. "For me. For Damian. For everyone you will try to hurt in the future. Ruthlessness is the only mercy I can give you now." Her face turned red as she gaped for air and Danyal-

Was thrown back into the water.

Reorienting himself, he found John Constantine standing over his mother, protecting her from him. "̷̪͂E̷̺͐x̷̝̑ŏ̶̺ȑ̴͉c̷̟͘i̸͔̋s̶̮̀t̶̯͝."

And the Pit's water began to rise.

[krowscrawl]

they both know it's bullshit

black background version

[aalghul]

my eyes start twitching every time i see someone say that Batman recruited jason to keep him from becoming a criminal when it was actually because an untrained, essentially unhomed (since the people he was trying to fight were from his new living situation, and by getting these people caught, he would once again be homeless), and tiny jason todd tried to stop a robbery that had nothing to do with him. batman saw jason’s strong sense of justice and that jason was a good kid in a tough situation (and batman had instantly taken a shine to jason at that point. he was just really charmed by him, and that part’s important too).

[frownyalfred]

That one ask about AP Bruce putting Jason in the pit himself just put so many batkid AP things into my head. Like Bruce has his flock and he keeps them in this near inescapable nest, but is there truly any place they’d rather be at the end of the day? Bruce having the constant mental push and pull of wishing they didn’t have to be there, to wanting them there and needing them there. He can’t help but protect and love them even though it opens up a target. How much rage does them being there give him, that His City would be cruel enough to lock children in a place like this.

How terrifying would that rage be after Jason’s death. Because I can imagine that would be enough for him to slip, to remind everyone exactly why Bruce is here in the first place. And that he’s here because he *chose* to be, he can leave at any time. He can march freely through the doors, and bring back the *dead*.

Just the image of him covered in blood both from Jason’s body, and also covered in marks and scratches from where Jason bit and scratched and thrashed from the pit, just holding him and trying to keep him warm and trying to let him know that he’s safe now.

That last paragraph took me out at the KNEES. GOD.

[ayamari-no-goshi]

Okay, we gotta talk about Pit Madness in the comics.

I keep seeing a bunch of people saying it’s not real. Problem. It is. It’s just rarely brought up.

It might not be the earliest reference, but we have this panel with Talia talking about how madness seizes him after dipping in the Lazarus Pit

Batman #244 (1972)

But this isn’t the only time we get reference to this. The panel below also talks about lore of the Lazarus Pits and again mentions that madness.

Batman: Bane of the Demon. Issue 3 (1998)

This gets referenced again in Hush when Bruce is fighting who he thinks is someone pretending to be Jason having been resurrected in the Pits during Hush.

Bruce is thinking about how he almost out Jason in a Pit after his death, but due to the madness the Pit can cause and Jason’s injuries to the head, he thought against it.

Batman # 618 - I think it’s volume 11 in the Hush omnibus (2003)

We see a reference to it again regarding Jason in the Lost Days. What’s super interesting here is that Talia states the Pits did NOT drive Jason mad, but Ra’s warns her that it’s possible the madness can occur up to years after a person’s dip.

I find this particular one fascinating, simply because of the lore that Pit Madness can take hold decades after a dip in a Pit.

Red Hood: the Lost Days #2 (2010)

Now, regarding Jason. There has NEVER been any concrete proof he’s suffered from Pit Madness. It’s very popular as a head cannon simply because Jason’s characterization is so all over the place.

Edit: Please keep in mind Jason was calm, cool, collected, and conniving in Under the Red Hood. Saying he’s Pit Mad there takes away all of the impact and gets rid of his motivations. Please be aware of this.

Now, that’s not saying there’s not a connection between Jason and the Pits. There was an entire arc in Red Hood and the Outlaws (2010) regarding this which also deals with Jason’s time with the All-Caste.

I still haven’t gotten around to reading that part, but it’s where the permanent augmentation theories come from. Oh, and Jason can canonically make constructs from Lazarus Water. Ra’s can too, but yeah… it’s a thing.

Red Hood and the Outlaws 2010 #27 (Released in 2014)

But while there’s no confirmation Jason’s dealt with Pit Madness, you know who has? Cass

Batgirl 1 #72 or 73 (2006)

Cass was revived after taking a blow for someone. And Shiva revived her, but there’s no permanence to it. And to my knowledge, I could be wrong since I’m not as familiar with her runs, this is the only time it gets referenced with her.

But going back to my original point that started this: Pit Madness is real. It’s just rarely seen in the comics. And if you want to use it, that’s fine - just be careful about its use since you can ruin characterization with it.

Edit 2: while there isn’t much of Pit Madness seen in the comics, it does seem to wear off over time. We also know a dip in the Pit temporarily increases brain power and physical strength/ability.

We also know that there’s a Lazarus Pit under Gotham and that its waters leech into Gotham’s water supply.

That’s referenced in Teen Titans vol. 3 issues 40-41 (2007) - forgive me. I don’t feel like looking up those panels

[nelkcats]

Garage Sale

Well, when the Fentons decided to have a garage sale Danny didn't expect many to be interested. His parents were looking for a way to get money quickly to build more stuff, and he jokingly suggested they could sell some inventions, they took it seriously (Jazz made sure to remove all the lethal inventions, she tried with the ones that might be risky but then they wouldn't sell anything).

Danny knew his parents were strange yes, but he wasn't sure that justified millionaires in his backyard. Millionaires, he'd like to clarify, had never set foot in Amity Park before. He raised an eyebrow at the sight of Bruce Wayne and his sons checking out the appliances. None of them seemed to be interested in the "ghosts" but they hadn't backed down from taking some things either.

So yes, Danny was suspicious. Of course he had made sure the inventions in the sale were safe (although unlike Jazz, he simply decided to make them safe, a few modifications here and there), but the fact that they looked genuinely interested made him uneasy.

Were the Waynes interested in hunting ghosts?

He decided to try something, he crossed eyes with one of them and let his green eyes show before looking away, the boy looked alarmed. He approached him and asked, but Danny feigned ignorance, commenting that all the inventions were green and maybe he had been confused by the reflection (to be fair, most of his parents' inventions were green because of the ecto).

For his part, Bruce had received an alert from Justice League Dark, it seemed they had detected a strange energy, similar to magic, so the bats set out to investigate. They didn't expect to find a garage sale in a house in the middle of nowhere (Amity Park wasn't even marked on the fucking map). Nor did they expect advanced technology or mad scientists.

Bruce decided to pretend he had stumbled into town as "Brucie Wayne" and buy a few things. He shuddered to see that many inventions worked with Lazarus water. Jason, who had strangely agreed to come along, was also upset about the son of the scientists.

Bruce questioned whether he had found a family of villains in the making.

[brucewaynehater101]

New idea: the Lazarus Pits adopt Tim.

Like, his first encounter face-to-face with a pit-rage person, Jason, does not end in blood and bruises. Instead the Pit goes “oh, that’s the guy who we want to be our new leader. He has so much potential! But he’s still baby, so we will have to help!”

…except this is one small piece of the Pits consciousness. And not even the one in control. Jason is still there. Jason still very much hates Tim.

Now, though, he’s practically being forced to coparent him? Because if the Pit takes control near Tim, he turns into a mother hen. If he gets too angry, the Pit takes control. And Tim makes him angry.

Tim is very conflicted. Not only does he not want to be the next Ra’s, he doesn’t particularly like Jason either, not after learning what he had wanted to do to him. But also he’s definitely safe? Because every time Jason intends to hurt him, the Pit takes control, and Tim is safe.

Relatively speaking.

This cues Jason's all-consuming need to get his Pit Madness under control.

In a weird turn of events, the borderline therapy ends up helping Jason with his anger enough that he stops hating Tim so much. Through the power of Lazarus Pit detox, Jason stops swearing Tim is his enemy. They move onto strong dislike but not murderous foes.

It's also weird because if the Pit gets triggered at *all* around Tim, Jason becomes a very aggressive parental figure to Tim.

Neither of them can look each other in the eye after the flare ups

[dandelionjack]

something about the fairies taunting jack with rose petals no less. something about the toymaker covering the unit hq in rose petals while he gets shot at. you’ll never get away from the sound of the woman that loves you blessed you with the curse of eternal life

jack loses everybody he loves over and over again and as a reminder of that, rose petals.

the doctor loses everybody he loves over and over again and as a reminder of that, rose petals.

tell me that doesn’t sound remarkably similar to the way fifteen describes the goblins to ruby. the goblins are part of the toymaker’s “legions” — ancient and mysterious entities from the dawn of time, slipping in through the cracks in reality, stimulated by human belief and superstition. goblins abduct little children for their own ends and so do the “fairies”. you don’t know where the chicken or the egg is, where history ends and mythology begins: did the folklore emerge from sightings of the real creatures, or did the creatures coalesce like an egregore because of the proliferation of the folklore about them, a manifestation of humanity’s deepest fears come alive ever since the toymaker changed the rules of the game?

but was it the toymaker? could this all be a chain reaction, kickstarted billions of years ago (or only nineteen, depending on how you look at it) when one headstrong young woman looked into the time vortex and turned herself into a literal deus ex machina, defying all laws of reality, raising the dead and disintegrating the death-bringers? could that have been the moment (lol.) when it all began to unravel?

i haven’t seen classic who. what do i know. but maybe it wasn’t the line of salt at the edge of the universe. maybe it was one girl, seeing everything that ever was, everything that will ever happen, anything that ever could be. the fairies haven’t stopped pursuing jack ever since: he’s the living evidence of her miracle. they slaughter his entire train carriage but they don’t touch a hair on his head. other children are the fairies’ chosen ones, yes, but jack is the chosen one of their goddess. the bad wolf

i wonder who that jonathan groff character in the upcoming series is.

[nenehyuuchiha]

And I'm not even done.

[bet-on-me-13]

Ghost Cores are Dionesium

So! I while ago, I saw a Post about Danny and the Court of Owls, and one suggestion in the comments basically said, "What if Dionesium, the stuff they use to bring back the dead, is just Ghost Cores?"

And that got me thinking. Lazarus Pits are just Dionesium Infused Water, so how would they be created if Dionesium is a Ghosts Core? Well they way I see it, Lazarus Pits can only be formed in 2 Ways.

The first way is for a large number of Ghosts to be Ended at the same time, with their shattered Cores piling up and dissolving into Water.

The other way, if for an Ancient to Die. The Ancients are practically God's, and as such their Cores are immense in Power. When an Ancient dies, and their Core is left to dissolve in the Human Realm, it forms a Lazarus Pit in the exact same way it would take hundreds of normal Cores to do so.

Where am I going with this?

Well, isn't there a Giant Lazarus Pit under Gotham? The Batcave even has one, doesn't it?

The reason Gotham is so cursed isn't because Lady Gotham likes to collect Curses, or because her Ectoplasm is corrupted, it's because she isn't there to stop them anymore.

Lady Gotham is Dead.

Her Core sank deep into the Earth, forming a Lazarus Pit under the entire City, but thankfully far away from her People. She died, and only the fact that she is a Conceptual spirit saved a piece of her Consciousness. She represents a City, she can only fully be killed if the entire City is leveled. That doesn't mean she is still alive however, just that the barest sliver of her mind is hanging on by a Thread.

This is how Gotham possessed Batman that one time, it was her base instincts saving one of her precious children.

If you want her to be a little more cognizant, maybe she is just severely Injured? Her Core is cracked to the edge of shattering and she desperately needs help.

She she calls out to whoever could save her, and a certain Ghost Boy hears her cry for help?

[hare-brained-schemes]

This is your reminder that Lazarus Pit Madness is not canon! It’s not present in the comics, nor are green eyes as a side effect. It’s mostly fanon.

However, that doesn’t take away from how interesting the concept is if written well; whether something is or isn’t canon shouldn't dictate your creativity.

Edit: I stand partially corrected, it seems it’s not entirely fanon as it’s present in a handful of comics (Red Hood: Lost Days), however is rarely mentioned in the grand scheme of things. It seems to be a small comic tidbit that has been expanded upon by fans.

[keyserelric]

Lazarus - Episode 12 "Close to the Edge"