#like yeah mostly pre-flashpoint

[necrotic-nephilim]

jealousy really is the driving force of DamiTim as a ship. love that for them. love how Tim has the Robin mantle ripped away from him and he has to suffer the jealousy of watching Dick and Damian bond. how possessive over Dick Tim can be, to have him stolen by Dick.

even more so though, is the jealousy from Damian. how on earth do you cope when you finally get to be Robin, a role you've convinced is your birthright, and no one really likes you? every prefers the Robin who came before you? Dick regularly reminds you that he can always go and call Tim back when you act out? like the complex Damian has over Tim is unreal. Tim, who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and had everything handed to him his whole life. he never had to struggle or fight for his place like Damian did. Damian has spent his whole life fighting and proving himself, and yet he can't ever seem to truly claw the mantle of Robin away from Tim. even when Tim lets it go, becomes Red Robin, they seem to share it. Tim can slip back into the role of Robin whenever someone like Dick or Bruce need him to, because *he's* the Robin who they need. he's the Robin who was able to find Bruce. he's the Robin that Ra's wants an heir out of. he's the Robin who even Jason respects. in Damian's eyes, everything Damian has fought tooth and nail for, was handed to Tim.

so of course he's going to react to Tim with violence and aggression, especially after finding out Tim has contingency plans for him. no matter how much Damian proves himself, he's never going to be enough, especially not to Tim. and so his deep refusal to see Tim as family, to acknowledge Tim's legacy is all driven by such an angry jealousy. Tim understands aspects of Bruce's legacy that Damian doesn't, like the need to sweet talk and play nice with the elites of Gotham, even if they're corrupt. they exemplify different aspects of Robin, and the aspects that Tim exemplifies are the aspects that Damian knows he'll never fully understand and therefore holds such a deep contempt for. he wants to fight criminals, not play nice with politicians. Tim understands the side of Gotham that's utterly foreign to Damian. if anything, he represents that side of Gotham, to Damian. a pretty little rich boy who's nothing but a know-it-all and not a real son of Bruce. he can't be a Wayne. he can't be Damian's family.

and all of that angry jealousy leading to unhealthy obsession turned a weird, angry crush from Damian is just my bread and butter. that is how DamiTim should be. to me. Damian obsessed over hating Tim Drake so much he accidentally ends up sort of in love with him and that only makes Damian angrier. because he can't prove everyone right by *also* liking Tim. he can't let Ra's win like that, because frankly why wouldn't Ra's be delighted by Damian and Tim getting together. and it builds and builds with angry passive aggression towards Tim that culminates in angry hate-fucking-that's-not-just-driven-by-hate. love and hate are always viewed as opposites in shipping and i think they're the same intense passion just in different directions. and for the best ships, they're very intertwined. what is DamiTim is not the peak of that. "i put so much of myself into hating you i had no choice but to fall in love with you somewhere along the way" core. love that bleeds into hate and hate that bleeds into love. "you make me so angry i regularly passively try to kill you but not with any real effort because who would i obsess over if you were actually gone" core. murder attempts as a form of courting. contingency plans to take each other out as a love language. they're unwell.

[mangoisms]

i love how you trash on fanon things specifically when they’re about the robins so i was wondering if you could tell us which do you think are the worst things that people have come up with?

HAHAHAHAHA thank you anon this is actually an honor ❤️‍🩹❤️‍🩹❤️‍🩹 let’s see. the dick only eats cereal thing is annoying. i was thinking about it earlier and i do think it was the fanon thing i’d stumbled upon that was weird and surprised me. id heard of it and believed that it was an odd fanon thing that existed but actually encountering it was another experience entirely. jason’s personality is also very….. i don’t know. fandom leans hard into the lit thing which is Fine but. i don’t know. woobification is Also a problem with him i think when it shouldn’t exist like he did very bad things. that’s fine. idk

i also can’t lie, the popular fanon belief that the boys (ie dick and jason mostly it seems like) use nicknames for each other/other siblings is a bit hard to swallow. like that post that’s like jason would NOT be calling anyone baby bird or whatever because he hates everyone, like that is so true. but also with dick? i just. i don’t know. i once saw a post where someone documented actual canon nicknames, i’d love to find it again, but genuinely, in my reading so far—which is pre flashpoint so idk maybe cursed rebirth strikes again there—i haven’t encountered any nicknames ppl like to use in their fics like idk. baby bird. again. little wing?? drawing a blank but You know what i’m talking about….

and i know it’s a thing of affection but i think affection between them can be expressed in a way different from that, i just see the nicknames as being the go-to, if that makes sense? i’m not sure if any of this sense it’s 2am and i am eepy bear with me

steph and waffles seems overdone too. and as we all know. i loathe tim’s fanon personality. the whole sleep deprivation making coffee his entire personality thing is so annoying. and making him meek and shy. AND woobifying him. like that boy has flaws. he has so many flaws. he’s so much more interesting with his flaws. Can we please talk about the flaws.

it’s really just when people oversimplify their personalities that annoys me. dick becomes the happy ‘nice one’ (which isn’t true/again oversimplifying), jason is the ‘mean but soft one,’ tim is the ‘smart/coffee/exhausted one’, cass is the ‘nice quiet one’, steph is the ‘comedic relief,’ duke is the ‘normal one’ (this one REALLY annoys me LMAO), damian is…. the ‘bratty/animal obsessed’ one? (must confess i am not versed in damian’s fanon i think he may be exempt from it—the worst of it but again could be wrong—BUT i do think people take the easy route with his personality sometimes and then with jon. yeah. yeah)

so like out of that. honestly it’s all bad for me. i’m SURE i’m forgetting some stuff but that’s really the core of it and i guess what i consider to be the worst of fanon and the ones that annoys me the most. what about you anon what do you find annoying ❤️‍🩹 also thank you for letting me be a hater here 🫶🫶 LMAO

[trying-out-stuff]

I love this discussion !

I totally understand, I started with fanon too before starting comics so I did discover some things were actually quite different while reading (that is just part of the experience I guess!).

I haven't read many Duke comics to be honest just the most recent ones (to know what is happening) and it's true he isn't as much in comics compared to the others (main) bat-characters. I can tell you he appeared very recently in DC Power this month (or was it last month ?) and one of his counterparts appears in the Outsiders (2023).

For the batfam versus wayne, I meant that the members of the Wayne family are part of the Batfamily but not all members of the Batfamily are part of the Wayne family ! Yes, Bruce and Alfred did start the batfamily (storywise) but the way we know it today (in the real world) was mostly started with Tim in 1990s.

I might be absolutely wrong but I don't remember any of the kids calling Kate their aunt (unless they did in Wayne Family Adventures but I'm not even sure for that one).

I forgot Cullen ! I think it one of the characters people know exist but sadly doesn't appear (and even Harper hardly appears now) in main continuity. I think by association he might but that is up to the reader (at least for me). Lucius does feel batfam since he helped a lot with all the bat-tech during the start of Bruce Batman career, Tam might with Tim's connection(and her father) pre-flashpoint but sadly with the reboot (curse you DC) she barely has any connection to the batfamily in present day comics.

While Jarro is funny, I don't really consider him batfam more a one-off character that exist.

I don't dislike Tim (or at least not pre-flashpoint Tim), I might have a harder time with modern Tim because I find him a bit boring (sorry!) and DC sadly doesn't have a good plan for him in the long run...

Just to recap, (because DC is quite confusing at times), there is Two big reboots that erase the previous timelines : Crisis on Infinite Earths and Flashpoint.

Rebirth happens and the pre-flashpoint time that was erased was reintroduced as memories they had forgotten (so not a reboot more like a buildup from pre-52 with new-52), some characters that previously were forgotten (like Cassandra, Stephanie, Wally West, Linda Park, etc) are reintroduced around that time.

We have shenanigans that happened and futur state that was supposed to be the next era (with the 5G project, I will let you look it up...) but Dan Didio was fired by DC (thank god) and Bendis jumped the ship around that time so it lead into Infinite Frontier.

Infinite Frontier re-instate the infinite multiverse (sort of a sequel to COIE that destroyed and limited it to 52 known other earths) and Dawn of DC is just the modern era (still in continuation of the previous one) so like a soft reboot with lots of books relaunching like Superman (that I recommend !), Green Arrow, Wonder Woman, Flash, Titans, Batman & Robin, and other mini series : Fire&Ice : welcome to smallville, Speed Force, and others that I forgot !

But yeah I totally understand DC can be quite confusing, I mainly just go with the flow but I find that right now is a good era for entering DC as a new reader !

You weren't rude at all, I was just scared I was sounding rude !

I think that tv shows/movies can have a good interpretation of characters (just like comics) but can also have some of the worst interpretations (just like comics)and that's because writers can use a character without understanding their purpose or why the do what they do, So I half agree with you on that !

No problem, I love answering questions and have a civil discussions on topics (I think) we both love (COMICS and BATFAMILY !!!!)

Is it fanon that the kids can all be Bruce's? Or was there canon that they were his?

Seeing that Helena has been around a lot longer than I thought, I was thinking about the other kids besides her, Damian, and the other bio children. I know we like to say sometimes that the kids are all Bruce's bio kids but is that just fanon? Or did it also happen in canon, whether another AU, world, etc?

I mostly mean Dick, Tim, and Jason here. Jason especially since he did seem to change canon parents, unlike the others, (unless they have and I don't know it.) when his backstory changed. I just decided to put all of the kids not just him since they might have been also.

[bitimdrake]

hi! i read your dc timeline (fantastic job btw) and had trouble following all the titans/teen titans/young justice/outsiders stuff. so i was wondering what's the difference between those four groups/how many iterations of each group there were/who were their members?

Thanks! The differences between these groups is fairly easy to answer. The membership and iterations...not so much. I will first link to my (Teen) Titans reading order, which gives the gist of each era, and my Young Justice reading order (both preboot only).

Like any teams that last more than a few years, all four of those teams have had various iterations with various lineups. At the most basic level:

"Teen Titans" was initially a team of the original sidekicks (think Dick, Donna, Wally, etc), but has since become the default name for DC's current team of young heroes, whoever they may be.

"Titans" is specifically used for teams with that original generation of sidekicks, but now grown up as adults.

"Young Justice" is for the 90s generation of kid heroes (okay, some introduced in the 80s; think Tim, Bart, Cassie, etc), and has really only been used as a name for that group/generation.

And "Outsiders" is actually typically a Batman-led team of fully adult heroes that has the least overlap here--except for one particular iteration of the team in 2003 with young adult heroes, including Dick, Roy, and Kory.

tl;dr: The Titans and Young Justice are based on specific groups, the Teen Titans are any kid heroes, and the Outsiders are mostly irrelevant just with one major exception.

This means that:

Young Justice and the Titans have existed at the same time, one as the teen generation of Tim/Bart/etc, one as the young adult generation of Dick/Donna etc.

The Teen Titans and the Titans have existed at the same time. Though the naming is more confusing here, the idea is the same: the Teen Titans are the teen heroes (typically Tim-generation for this, maybe even younger), and the Titans are the Dick-generation young adults.

In recent years, the Teen Titans and Young Justice have existed at the same time. Young Justice remains the Tim-generation, and the Teen Titans are either an even newer, younger team (think Damian, Crush), or just DC's latest attempt at capitalizing on the famous name (typically with the characters known from the animated show: Raven, Cyborg, etc).

The Outsiders may or may not have existed in conjunction with any number of these, because they usually draw from a whole different set of potential characters.

As for the number of iterations and list of members...Yeah. Putting that under a cut.

A Pre-Flashpoint History

I’m going to thoroughly cover Titans/Teen Titans/Young Justice here, but I will be a lot less detailed on the Outsiders because I don’t know them as well.

The Teen Titans I (60s, 70s) sprang out of a team up between Dick Grayson/Robin, Wally West/Kid Flash, and Garth/Aqualad. The team was officially founded and formed by the fab five: those three, plus Donna Troy/Wonder Girl and Roy Harper/Speedy.

This team would have like a dozen other members at various points over the years, including Lilith Clay, Mal Duncan/Guardian/Herald, and Hank and Don Hall/Hawk and Dove.

They also briefly had a mostly-offscreen spinoff, the Titans West, which included such members as Gar Logan/Beast Boy, Bette Kane/Flamebird, and Hawk and Dove.

The Teen Titan got together in mid adolescence, and had a lot of cheesy adventures against such foes as Mad Mod and Ding Dong Daddy. They broke up when many members starting going off to college or otherwise moving on in life.

The New (Teen) Titans (80s), reassembled by Raven to fight her father, were half a reformation of old members (Dick, Donna, Wally, plus Gar now going by Changeling) and half new members (Raven, Koriand'r/Starfire, Vic Stone/Cyborg). As they were already all 18-19 when the team started--minus youngster Gar--the "Teen" was soon dropped from the name. Wally would end up leaving this team, and others like Joey Wilson/Jericho, Kole, and Danny Chase would join. Former Titans and allies, like Roy and Garth, would periodically show up to help out as well.

This run took a more serious tone and had a lot of character progression. It's when many of the first generation of sidekicks changed identities: Robin to Nightwing, Wonder Girl to Troia and later no codename, Speedy to Arsenal, etc. It also introduced such villains as Slade Wilson/Deathstroke (including the famous Judas Contract story with Terra), HIVE, Brother Blood, and Komand'r/Blackfire.

The original Outsiders I were also formed in the 80s, led by Batman and including iconic members like Black Lightning and Katana.

In the early 90s, the New Titans fell apart for a variety of terrible reasons and had massive shifts in membership. Half of them left or died or were completely changed; others like Leonid Kovar/Red Star, Pantha, and Miriam Delgado/Mirage joined, and the whole thing was a mess.

After a lot of spiraling, the team was almost entirely swapped to a largely new group funded by the government and led by Roy/Arsenal, including Gar, Miriam, Grant Emerson/Damage, Kyle Rayner/Green Lantern, Bart Allen/Impulse, Rose Wilson, Martix Supergirl, a maybe-new-maybe-not version of Terra, and more. This group was still under the New Titans name and in the same run, despite little member overlap. They split up when the government pulled funding.

Apparently there was another iteration of the Outsiders II briefly in the mid-90s, but I truly cannot tell you much about it. Still unrelated to the younger generations.

The Teen Titans II (mid 90s) were the first group to use the name with zero tie to the founders. Led by a de-aged Ray Palmer/Atom, this group consisted of teens kidnapped by aliens and genetically modified--Toni Monetti/Argent, Isiah Crockett/Joto, Audrey Spears/Prysm, and Cody Discoll/Risk. This run only lasted a couple years.

Young Justice I (late 90s/early 00s) sprang out of a team up between Tim Drake/Robin, Superboy (later named Kon-el), Bart Allen/Impulse, and Secret. The team shortly added Cassie Sandsmark/Wonder Girl and Cissie King-Jones/Arrowette, and later Anita Fite/Empress, Slobo, and Ray Terril/Ray. Under the vague mentorship of Red Tornado, this group had wacky coming of age adventures.

This is also when teams start to overlap:

The Titans I (late 90s/early 00s) formed out of the original (teen) Titans just really missing each other, okay? This team melded together the original fab five (Wally now the Flash; Garth now Tempest), Cyborg and Starfire of the original New Titans, Grant/Damage of Arsenal's New Titans, Toni/Argent of the second Teen Titans, and new-to-the-titans Jesse Quick. Other old Titans appeared here and there (Rose Wilson as Lian's babysitter <3), and a number of the starting group left along the way.

Events in 2003 broke up both Young Justice and the Titans simultaneously, and members shuffled around.

A few of the now-former Titans joined the Outsiders III (mid 00s), the one version of that team relevant here. The team was formed by Roy and initially led by Dick, and included members like Grace Choi, Anissa Pierce/Thunder, Metamorpho/Shift, and later Jennifer-Lynn Hayden/Jade and Kory/Starfire. This team was kind of a disaster (compliment) and the series took an adult tone with mature themes.

(Note: I dig the 2003 Outsiders, but there was no reason for them to be called the Outsiders. It’s just hollow name reuse for no reason.)

Meanwhile, the Teen Titans III (mid 00s-early 10s) formed with a combination of older members from the New Titans--like Kory, Vic, and Gar (Beast Boy again)--and younger members from Young Justice--Tim, Cassie, Kon-El Conner Kent, and Bart. Others like Raven and Mia Dearden/Speedy joined later.

Honestly I’m having a hard time cleanly describing the tone/identity of this series. It was a superheroes series about a team of young heroes/sidekicks. Idk. It exists and ran for a long time.

After the Infinite Crisis in 2006, everything in DC jumped One Year Later. Over the course of that missing year, the Teen Titans had a variety of rotating, mostly second-string members. But that’s really just briefly seen in 52 and never had any real appearances, so whatever.

After One Year Later, the team did have a major shake up. All the young adult members left, leaving just the teens, and many new members joined. And left. And joined. And left. I think Cassie is the only consistent member. There is a lot of turnover in the back half of this series, but some Teen Titans here include: Rose Wilson/Ravager, M’gann Morzz/Miss Martian, Eddie Bloomberg/Kid Devil/Red Devil, Jaime Reyes/Blue Beetle, and Amy Allen/Bombshell.

This constantly-rotating team would last all the way until the New 52.

Meanwhile the older generation kept switching:

The Outsiders also had a shake up after One Year Later, when it turned out they were all now fugitives for accidentally maybe doing some bad stuff. (Most important to me, Roy left so what is even the point now. “Dick is still there,” yeah but he’s not being a bitch (entertaining) anymore; he’s just grumpy.) Much of the team was gone by now, but they added Owen Mercer/Captain Boomerang Jr and Katana.

Only like a year (irl) later, Batman decided he wanted this to be his team again, and almost the entirety of the team swapped out for the Outsiders IV, which was more like the original/standard line-up, with only a few from the unusual 2003 iteration.

With the Outsiders a team of real adults again, many of the young adults were freed up. And you know what that means! Titans II (late 00s): these friends truly cannot stay away from each other. It’s a combination of the original team and the NTT: Dick, Roy (now Red Arrow), Donna, Wally, Kory, and Vic.

And also Gar and Raven kept moving between the Titans and the Teen Titans, because DC couldn’t decide how old they were supposed to be after Raven’s de-aging.

Despite the great line-up, these Titans were not to last, as DC was making a lot of changes and half the characters had other things to do. Dick had to replace a missing Bruce as Batman. Wally was always over-taxed as the Flash on the JLA and the Titans. Roy’s daughter was killed, leading him to relapse, in what everyone naively thought was the worst writing Roy would ever have before the New 52 proved just how much worse it could get. The team fell apart.

Slade Wilson/Deathstroke swooped in to form the Titans: Villains for Hire (early 10s) a team of villains and morally grey characters like Cheshire, Osiris, and [deep sigh] downward spiral Roy (now Arsenal once again), all with their own agendas.

(Note: it’s dumb as hell that this team was called the Titans. It was even more hollow name re-use. Come on, DC, just make up a new name for once.)

In the very end, the villain part split and there was a glimmer that a healing Roy and a resurrected/not evil (long story) Joey Wilson might make a new Titans team, an abandoned idea that lingers in my mind to this day...

But t’was not to be because--

A Prime Earth History

Flashpoint blew up and rebooted the entire universe.

This recap will be shakier, as I have not read anything from the latter part of it. (Still trapped in the New 52 over here.) Also I’m going to stop recapping the Outsiders entirely, sorry.

In the New 52, all history and most of what made DC good was erased. The Titans had never existed.

The (New 52) Teen Titans IV (early/mid 10s) were, in their continuity, the first team of that name. This team included rebooted, in-name only versions of Tim Drake [redacted]/Red Robin, Cassie Sandsmark/Wonder Girl, Kon-El/Superboy, Bart Allen Bar Torr/Kid Flash, Kiran Singh/Solstice, Miguel Barragan/Bunker, etc.

The theme of this run was “bad writing” and the tone was “awful”. Somehow it lasted the entire New 52 and into Rebirth.

My knowledge is really, really shaky after this:

The (Rebirth) Titans III (late 10s) formed with the original generation finally reunited, after fans revolted in the face of DC trying to erase Wally West from existence. This team had the fab five and fellow original (Teen) Titan, Lilith/Omen.

Then the (Rebirth) Teen Titans V (late 10s) formed, with a bunch of iconic young adult characters like Kory, Vic, and Gar, plus teenager Wallace West/Kid Flash (not that one; there are two Wally Wests now) and Damian Wayne/Robin. Apparently Damian is the leader of this team despite being the only child on it and. why. I don’t understand.

At some point that team revamped and became entirely a team of youngsters like Damian, Wallace, the new Red Arrow/Emiko Queen, and Xiomara Rojas/Crush.

Young Justice II (late 10s/early 20s) reformed after a while, with the universe slowly restoring bits from New Earth. This team was Kon, Bart, Tim, Cassie, and a few new peers like Jinny Hex and Teen Lantern.

The (Teen?) Titans Academy (early 20s) I believed formed with the idea of older, established Titans like Vic, Donna, Kory, etc mentoring a whole bunch of very new young heroes who I’m looking at the wiki list for and boy that’s a lot of names. Huh. I think this one is still ongoing?

Which means we have reached the present, and my list now ends.

I wonder if this makes the top 5 for my longest posts.

[soleminisanction]

Hi :D i loved your sticks and stones work! Amazing! Anyways id been going back through the robin 1993 and other era-related comics and realized what was bugging me about some fanon characterization of steph being the 'popular social one'. They get her's and tim's social life completely swapped. Steph isn't a team player and the one willing to work with everyone. Could just be because Steph's a supporting member but I realized she focused mostly on crime fighting and was much more of a loner. She didn't do team ups pretty much till she was Batgirl. Tim, however, had an active civilian social life and constantly teamed with other vigilantes. Idk if thats just my interpretation though. Anyways :)))

God yes! You are so right! That has frustrated me for years, especially in the recent canon when they've been having every teenager with a cape suddenly go "OMG haiiiii Stephanie :) :)" for no fucking reason when it makes ZERO sense! She's a weird loner who does not know any of these people!!

And that's doubly true when it comes to her civilian friends. Steph's civilian life as a whole is weirdly under-developed given how much attention she's gotten over the years, especially since she, y'know, had her own series. Yet they still couldn't be bothered to give her much of anything to work with. It's so frustrating.

Seriously, here is, I'm pretty sure, a full list of the friends Steph was shown having pre-Flashpoint who aren't members of the Bat-clan:

These two Black girls from Robin #61 who only exist so Stephanie can yell at them about how stupid their friend is for keeping her baby and how stupid they are for thinking it's cute of her to do that, and then later she talks about how dumb and immature they are compared to her, and they're never seen again.

Her baby-daddy Dean, who's only shown once outside of Robin during the Cataclysm event, and then only shows up again 2 years after her pregnancy has been resolved so Stephanie can beat him up for no reason. (Seriously, this is the only page he's on before she kicks him in the nuts and knocks him around, he doesn't say or do anything else to her, she just wails on him for no reason)

Two randos from the Robin/Spoiler Special who exist to make a plot happen by inviting her to a warehouse party that she drags Tim to and are never seen again. Their existence also makes no sense in Steph's personal timeline because she's been "dead" for a year and will be in college in like two months so why the hell would she enroll in high school again??

Effa, the little African girl also from the Robin/Spoiler Special, who only exists to make Stephanie look good by sucking up to her.

Jordanna Spence and Francisco Garcia from her Batgirl run, supposedly. In practice they're actually just two people that Stephanie doesn't like and whom she calls "friends" in quotation marks and has no idea why she keeps hanging around them, and yet she keeps bothering them because the plot said she's gotta.

Supergirl, as forced and one-sided as that relationship was.

Wendy Harris, even though "Proxy" only really lasted for a grand total of 5 issues.

A nameless rando she's shown playing ping-pong with, once.

...and that's it! That's all the friends Stephanie has ever had who weren't members of the same extended anti-crime family, and two of them are people she only met because of those connections.

Compare that to Tim, who has dozens of civilian friends and at least twice as many caped ones, and yeah, it's absolutely ridiculous that people pretend Stephanie is the """social""" one.

But y'know, she's the perky-happy blonde girl, so people just assume she must be popular. Because she's written almost entirely in stereotypes and cliches since 2008.

[autisticcassandracain]

Batfam rated by how good their solos/comics they have a primary role in are (based on what I've read and my opinions):

Cassandra Cain: Batgirl (2000) FUCKS, it's the best Batfam comic, I will not be taking criticism at this time. Even the post-Flashpoint and Evil Cass nonsense won't take this spot from her.

Duke Thomas: We Are Robin is SO good for the first six issues and okay for most of it afterwards. Batman & The Signal is pretty good. I really hate his Secret Files but that's only one issue, do he's here due to a lack of bad comics and having some pretty good ones.

Bruce Wayne: He's here solely because he's got so many fucking comics statistically at least some are great. Some of his comics are better than Duke's but also he's got some fucking awful ones so he's below him for that.

Damian Wayne: Robin: Son of Batman's first 6 issues are some of my favourites in comics, the rest is pretty good. His post-flashpoint Batman & Robin is generally pretty good. Robin (2021) was boring to me and I didn't bother keeping up with it so who knows it could be good now maybe possibly I guess. His Pre-Flashpoint Batman & Robin sucks ass for the entire Morrison run and is okay afterwards. Overall most of the other series he's been in have ranged from meh to ugh. Has some highlights but is mostly in the pretty mediocre or bad range.

Barbara Gordon: Admittedly haven't read through all of Birds of Prey but what I read was pretty good. Oracle: Year One CARRIES her spot though I'm cheating bc its a short story not a full comic but it's SO good I love it so much. Sadly she's got all the post-flashpoint nonsense dragging her down.

Dick Grayson: Look he's been in some pretty good stuff but imo it was not usually good because of him if you get what I mean. Also his solos have been long as hell but I've never read any where I was like 'yeah this is great!' It's always been fine or pretty good at best. Has some decent Robin stories and some pretty good Batman ones though. Was a victim of Devin Grayson and is getting points reducted for that.

Stephanie Brown: Her Batgirl solo is pretty good but nothing spectacular. I haven't been reading the current Batgirls series so that's all this ranking is based on. Perfectly serviceable, not horrific to read.

Tim Drake: His Robin solo sucks ass sorry to Tim enjoyers but I simply do not like it. I haven't read all of it but I've read enough to make the call that I don't want to read more. Haven't read his Red Robin solo so that's not adding or subtracting to the ranking.

Jason Todd: This man has never gotten a single good comic. Under The Red Hood was fine but Jason fans are so obnoxious about it it's retroactively made me hate it. I'm sorry but RHATO was his longest running solo this man's comics have no rights

[incoherentbabblings]

Do you think Tim in Rebirth was portrayed too differently than how he was pre-flashpoint and came across as too teen geniusy?

Oh yes let's talk about Rebirth Tim my favourite iteration of this disaster of a bisexual let's go.

This went a little off topic I'm sorry.

I think I read comics a little differently to others in that - if there is continuity, great, grand, lots of depth and mirroring and decades of building up of characterisation and such what - but at the same time I really don't mind reading a comic where the the characterisation doesn't match up with prior depictions. So long as it's internally consistent and aids in telling the (good) story the author wanted to tell, I'm not that precious about character traits that I think should or ought to be innate. Obviously there are certain things where I'm like... no wait that's actually important, but otherwise, nah. Go to town.

So Tim being a smart alec to the point where barely an issue goes by without him mentioning his dumb wrist computer and hacking? Okay, yeah. Bit annoying that, mostly because it's a lazy way to get him out of tight situations. Like how did he hack into Mr Oz's computer again? Just because he's sooooo smart. Blergh.

But! I think he's a great blending of pre-Flashpoint and New 52 Tim, and it's what they do with that overbearing intelligence which I think is interesting.

But Abbie! You cry, New 52 Tim is literally irredeemably bad!

Hoho. Ho. Ho. Ho. You have no idea how much I'm about to stretch this. Doing the splits I'm trying so hard. I... really like ideas and concepts that were introduced with New 52 Tim. Are they executed well? Lol no. But!!!! There's things there which could have been, and isn't that more fun?

Right?

Anyway.

Read more under the cut. This ran away with me a bit.

I want to compare New 52 Tim to Rebirth whilst keeping everything he went through pre-Flashpoint in your head.

New 52 Tim is odd because he is literally not Tim. He has different motivations, different attitudes to his family (biological and otherwise) and honestly there is an interesting character in there, but they never acknowledged how legitimately awful of a person he was and could be. He only ends up becoming Robin (not Robin) by throwing his parents under the bus and seemingly feels no remorse for it because he gets the chance to work with Batman only he seems to have nothing but disdain for Bruce and spents most of his shared panel time with him calling Bruce a piece of shit and to back off.

New 52 Tim is cold. And Bruce let's Tim get away with it; and it could be because he finds Tim just unnerving or he feels guilty or... he just doesn't care about Tim. Something happened between the two in this timeline where when Tim goes off to form the Titans, Bruce just completely wipes his hands of him and only calls him back to Gotham for face events or for the crossovers. Coupled with the fact that Tim is apparently closest to Jason (so dumb) about feeling like black sheep outsiders... Like it's just so wrong for Tim? But also who is this boy like he's so weird there's so much unspoken horridness festering beneath the surface I don't think it was intentional but this Tim of all Tims is certainly the Supervillain in the making. Bruce takes Tim in during the New 52 and its not out of any compassionate means or ends really. Tim very aggressively shoves his presence in, cocks up, and forces Bruce's hand to clean up the mess.

He has no concept of privacy he wants to be as disconnected from Bruce as possible finding out who Batman is was treated like a game by him he is indifferent at most to the concept of death and on and on...

One also gets the impression that he is terribly, terribly lonely.

What a horrid little boy he is where does this character development come from????

So come Rebirth, where we're told that pre-Flashpoint is coming back, we just don't know how, and Tim has finally 'come home' to the Bat Editorial team after being in the Titans one for years, it then becomes a question how much is Tim going to be Tim. If that makes sense.

So! Motivation wise, where is Rebirth Tim at?

So I sort of think, for every 'kid genius' comment, there's something about him feeling he had to step in because no-one else could, about how he absolutely does not want to stick around.

And I (personally) think Tynion does a really cool thing with this which is he really plays into Tim's fears for the future. He fears for Bruce's wellbeing, he fears for his own, he fears for Gotham. It's one hundred percent motivated by love though.

And its exploited ruthlessly. Very Star Wars of them.

There's this great push and pull which I love between the neurosis and fear and love that Rebirth Tim has for Bruce and Gotham and his family and Steph etc etc. Where he's managed to convince himself that he's the smartest guy in the room, he's the only one who can see the big picture, and he's the only one who can fix it as a result. And it terrifies him.

Now, tell me those aspects don't ring true for pre-Flashpoint Tim? Especially Red Robin era? But of course, all that trauma hasn't happened to this Tim, so it's this weird merge of New 52 and Pre-Flashpoint and yet it works?? At least, it does for me.

The teen genuis comments are a little heavy handed, but they serve a purpose. This kid is confident in one thing, which is his noggin. He's insecure about his place in the family, he's frightened of being alone, he does not want to be a vigilante long term but has no clue how to back out and soon it just isn't a viable option for him anymore...

Of course, we've still got the lingering New 52 Tim there. The arrogance is posturing, the poor social skills, the sharper relationship with Bruce... God there's this one panel where Tim looks positively hateful at Bruce and I love it. It didn't really go anywhere because Tim's fright over the future Ulysses showed him won out but uh

Tim? Arguing with his dad? Thinking he knows best? A sense of entitlement and lashing out? Seen that before?

Rebirth Tim is consistent with what he was pre-Flashpoint. The journey is different, but it's the same boy. The incessant references to hacking don't change that I think.

[fantastic-nonsense]

Do we actually know what happens to Jason after the under the red hood movie? Because every time I think about that movie’s ending I want to burst into tears.

Do you want the shitty, original answer or the still sucky but way more optimistic reboot answer?

Technically speaking, since the movie simplified and altered the comic's events, we don't really know, because the Batfam of the UtrH movie isn't the same Batfam of the comics; Tim didn't seem to exist, for one thing, and neither does Cass (who wasn't around for that particular arc, but was certainly present). You can probably look to the Death in the Family movie for a better understanding of how DC sees that progression going.

That being said, here's how everything in the comics happened post-Under the Red Hood, pre-Flashpoint (DC's 2011 universe reboot):

Jason resurfaces as a murderous Nightwing imposter in NYC, eventually teaming up with Dick to take down a bunch of mobsters. They part on uneasy but peaceful terms.

He then runs a gun-running operation out of Star City, captured Mia Dearden (the current Speedy), and tried to convince her to be his sidekick. She refused, so he blew up her school. It was a whole...thing.

During Countdown, he ends up helping the League deal with the Monitors and ended up taking an accidental multiverse trip with Donna Troy and Kyle Rayner, briefly taking up the costume and moniker of Red Robin (yes, Tim's Reborn-era costume and name came from this arc; yes, Tim has never had a codename of his own. We know) before returning to Red Hood

briefly teamed up with Tim for a hot second, neither one of them was very happy about it, and he promptly got sent back to jail afterwards

He escapes and pops back up in Gotham in time for Battle for the Cowl, running around as a murder-happy Batman after Bruce's death. As Batman, he proceeds to: shoot Damian, torture and kill Black Mask's mooks, leave Tim to die after brutally beating him unconscious and stabbing him in the chest, and beat Catwoman into the ground (twice) before finally losing to Dick (who then formally takes up the mantle of Batman).

Jason, feeling put out that Dick "won the claim" to the Batman mantle, decided to make Dick's life hell in the aftermath. He picked up his own sidekick (a girl named Scarlet), made some truly tragic fashion choices, and started broadcasting his brutal methods of dealing with criminals on social media, forcing Dick-as-Batman to deal with him. This chase results in Damian getting shot in the spine 5 times by Flamingo (he gets better) and Jason cornered by Dick and Commissioner Gordon, screaming that he's 'the solution that Gotham needs' and sounding, frankly, completely unhinged.

Jason gives himself up, ends up in Arkham (largely for his own protection; he would have been flat-out murdered in Blackgate or any of the surrounding 'normal' prisons), eventually gets transferred to a normal prison, kills a bunch of people (tl;dr both self-defense, they were trying to kill him first, and just as a morally bankrupt method of escaping prison), escapes, reunites with his sidekick, and disappears. And that's the last we see of him in the pre-reboot universe.

......yeah, none of us like that either! Excluding Countdown (which was fun arc in an otherwise absolute mess of a comic...truly one of the worst comic events I've ever read in my life, please don't do it) and Red Hood: Lost Days, which covered Jason's training with Talia and the League of Assassins before returning to Gotham, mostly everyone agrees that Jason's post-resurrection handling was an editorial decision that sucked, badly, and no one's happy with how that turned out.

The post-Flashpoint/New 52 universe was actually good for one thing: DC decided to take the opportunity to rehab Jason completely and reinvent him as an actual anti-hero. Tragically, this job got handed over to Scott (fucking) Lobdell, who proceeded to write Red Hood and the Outlaws and fuck everyone in that book over who wasn't named Jason Todd. While Kory was hit particularly badly in the beginning, Roy has borne the longest-lasting damage from that run. Also, Jason/Starfire was briefly a thing. We don't like to talk about that either. That being said, Jason's new post-resurrection history is much more positive (both for him and for the Batfamily) than it used to be, and we love that for him!

After his resurrection, he trained with the League of Assassins and the All-Caste (which included some really awesome anger management training that Jason proceeded to chuck directly in the trash can until after the events of Under the Red Hood)

Under the Red Hood happens

he worked out of Gotham as a ruthless anti-hero vigilante for a little bit. Battle for the Cowl is implied to have happened, possibly without the 'trying to murder Tim' bit (we're not really sure)

he hooked up with Roy Harper/Arsenal and Koriand'r/Starfire, formed the Outlaws, and went on several adventures. Also, he got magic swords, which was a cool af choice that DC continues to do absolutely nothing with

in between this, he worked with the Batfamily a bit; he helped out when the Court of Owls attacked Gotham (Night of Owls), helped them deal with the Joker when it's revealed the Joker knows their secret IDs (Death of the Family), and teamed up with Damian for a Batman Inc. arc (it went...poorly, but not as poorly as it could have)

He went back to the All-Caste and purposefully got his memory erased because he wouldn't just go to fucking therapy like a normal human being, then joined up with the League of Assassins for a hot second (Roy was trying to save his dumb ass this entire arc; thank god for Roy Harper, honestly)

Jason regained his memory and went on a few more adventures with the Outlaws, then worked with Roy for awhile after Bruce's presumed death (he really just had amnesia), then teamed up with the other Robins to help take down a villain called 'Mother'; this included an undercover operation w/Tim to take down a cult operating out of Santa Prisca

lots of other shit happens, he reformed the Outlaws (this time with Bizarro and Artemis, forming a sort of 'Dark Trinity'), had several more adventures, teamed up with the Batfam several more times, and got into lots and lots and lots of arguments with Bruce (there was an arc about his bio father Willis and Penguin, Bruce thought Jason broke the no-killing rule again, there was a pretty brutal fight...it sucked)

He went back to being a lethal solo vigilante for awhile, went back for vengeance against Penguin (again), shit with Leviathan (international criminal organization formerly run by Talia) happened, and finally he returned to Gotham as a solo hero

Where he helps Bruce hunt down 'Cheer' (a Joker/Scarecrow wannabe), he and Bruce finally make peace, and he agrees to give up his guns, go non-lethal, and start working with the Batfam again

And that is where we stand with Jason today (as of August 2021)! Who tf knows what's going to happen now, because we're officially in unchartered territory; this is the first time since Jason was resurrected in 2005 that DC is making a genuine, concerted effort to re-integrate him into the family instead of just being the Batfamily's 'sometimes ally prodigal brother/son with daddy issues galore'.

So, overall: lots of tragic and really awful narrative decisions on one hand, lots of shitty characterization but positive character development and family re-integration possibilities on the other. Take your pick!

[bigskydreaming]

Hi! I was reading a fanfic and it brought up Roy and Dick's fight, which I see a lot of in fics but never what they fought about and consequently why they don't talk. I thought it was a vague excuse/reason why Roy was Jason's friend not Dick's anymore but this fic brought up when Dick was batman so I was wondering if there was actually a fight between them? Btw I really enjoy your metas! They're v thought out and well articulated. Also it's v easy to separate what's your opinion and what's fact which is. Very helpful for me

Yeah this is one hundred percent a fanon thing that's kept deliberately vague to justify why Roy in his friendship with Jason seems to have no positive thoughts or concerns about Dick whatsoever. Now granted, Dick and Roy are not nearly as close in the New 52 as they were pre-Reboot. The lack of their friendship there is definitely one of the things I disliked most about the Reboot - and I actually don't care if Jason and Roy are friends tbh, its the total erasure of his history with Dick as if he can't be friends with both, that like, bugs most.

But so like, yeah, Roy and Dick aren't super close when they interact on the Titans in the New 52, but there's literally nothing in any of their interactions that explains the complete absence of him from Roy's life or a reason that Roy would like, hate him the way he tends to in a lot of Jason-centric fics.

When you factor in pre-Reboot stuff though, it starts to get a LOT more.....uh wyd? And this is why I have trouble buying that people just write Roy and Jason the way they do because its the only thing they know from recent comics. Like one, most fans talk about how they don't even read the source comics, so there's no reason their knowledge of the characters or events would be limited to just recent comics if they're going off wiki summaries and scans anyway. And second, most fans AREN'T limited in their knowledge to just recent comics.

Like, the second people start writing Roy and Jason and Kori but with their pre-52 characterizations and references to events from THAT timeline, it all gets very messy, the way they're like, completely antagonistic towards Dick a lot of the time. Because Roy and Dick were always solid. Yes, they fought. A lot. But they always, ALWAYS made up afterwards. They had conflict about Roy's drug addiction - it didn't stop Dick from being there to support him through rehab, or Dick being the first person Roy called to help him get Lian after he learned of her existence. Dick literally held Lian before Roy ever did? He's the one who first put her in Roy's arms for the first time.

(Which is the prime grudge I and most Dick Grayson fans have about Roy and Jason fics which make Jason like, the absolute apple of Lian's eye. If you want to expand Lian's circle of loved and trusted ones to include Jason as Roy's friend and thus her uncle, like go for it! But there's zero reason that should require invalidating and erasing the fact that Dick was this little girl's adored godfather and uncle for pretty much her entire life. And the way Dick is just shoved offstage from Lian's life entirely, to slot Jason into his place as though they're completely interchangeable, its like....THAT'S the kind of thing that gets people irey about how Jason 'steals' Dick's dynamics and character relationships.

Because there's nothing saying they both can't be major players in Roy and Lian's lives! But just that they're not interchangeable! You need to develop the specific role Jason plays there WITHOUT just overwriting everything Dick actually did in relation to the two of them pre-Flashpoint, which is what you're drawing from the second you write Lian, unless you're specifically going with the few appearances we've had of her within literally just the last year.

But I mean, when people just search and replace Dick Grayson in all Roy and Lian's pre-Reboot stories and act like Jason was the one doing all of that instead.....why wouldn't fans of the source material be annoyed by a character getting credit for interactions and things done for Lian and Roy that Jason literally NEVER DID, while at the EXACT SAME TIME, conjuring some mysterious, unnamed 'Falling Out' that Roy and Dick had, that was clearly all Dick's fault, and resulted from him being basically excised entirely from Roy and Lian's lives?

Same with Kori, for the record, and like despite being Dick's ex, she and Dick have NEVER been like, estranged? She and Dick have often been close even after their breakup. None of it makes any sense, and the fact that a lot of fans don't even try to make it make sense or justify it, and expect other fans to just be fine with settling for an inexplicable reversal of Dick's every actual dynamic with these characters while setting up Jason to occupy the exact same role Dick played in these other characters' lives, like.....lol. Its fun.)

Anyway, back to your question, like, there are fights you can go with pre-Reboot as the source of various conflicts between Dick and Roy - but again, I maintain its just as crucial that they're always written as getting past them. They have a very tempestuous relationship because they are the two people MOST likely to call each other on their shit, two of the two people WITH the most shit in common due to the parallels in their childhoods and the roles they've occupied in the Titans and the superhero community in general, and the two people most resistant to being called out on their shit by each other, lol. Mostly in that case because like, they do recognize that they have a lot in common and understand each other very well, so the second the other is calling them out for something, they're usually like "ugh, if HE'S saying this, its probably true and I am just not prepared yet to be wrong about this. I need more time being unjustifiably rawr about things." Its like that thing where they both look at each other doing something that feels familiar or calls back to their own reasons for doing something and they're like ugh I'm in this picture and I don't like it.

So they clash. A lot. But always with the implicit bedrock of like, there's nothing either of them can do or say to the other that will push the other away for good.

They fought over Roy replacing Dick as leader of the Titans when Dick's wedding fell apart, even though Roy actually didn't want to do it and was kinda pushed into it by the government, but again, Dick like, got over it and realized it was for the best and forgave Roy for it that very same issue. And on and on. It always went like that. So there's plenty of stuff that can be used or pointed at as a source of conflict between the two, but the part I'll always call unbelievable is the idea that they never make up after one of these fights. Why now? What fight, specifically, is so bad between them that despite everything else they've gone through AND gotten past, they can't get past this one? Y'know?

So yeah, that's my take on this. There is no definitive falling out between Dick and Roy as many fics like to point to in order to shove him offscreen and make room for Jason in Roy and Lian's lives, and personally, I just don't find it necessary and I actually think it makes Roy look REALLY bad. Because when you're not specifically detailing all the things that Dick has actually DONE for Roy, the lengths to which he's been there for his friend, and like, specifically invalidating each and every one of them as something that never happened in a particular fic, then literally anyone who reads that fic and has their own awareness of Dick and Roy's friendship is kiiiiiinda likely to be reading that and thinking wow what an ungrateful asshole, when Roy's just written as bitching about Dick with Jason and sandbagging him without any real explanation as to WHY, beyond just 'oh they had a fight years ago.'

(And coming up with some random awful thing that Dick did to justify Roy hating him now isn't like, a superior alternative, lmao, because again, its still just trashing one character for the sake of getting him out of the way of two other characters' friendship and people are going to think what they think about that).

Anyway, my now standard stock disclaimer that like, there doesn't actually need to be a canon fight obviously, for people to just write things this way and handwave that Dick and Roy had an epic falling out years ago and now they just hate one another or whatever, or just Roy hates him or vice versa. Obviously people are free to do what they want. They don't need a reason other than "I want to write it this way so Jason and Roy are friends and Jason doesn't have to 'share' him with Dick or have his friendship be overshadowed by their greater history together." That just happens to be a reason that no Dick Grayson fan is ever really going to be happy about, lol, for what should be perfectly obvious reasons, so it honestly shouldn't be surprising to people that fans of the source material often gripe about it.

Because yeah fanfic is a tremendous opportunity to transform the source material into something better, but if what's better for some fans actively takes away what was working perfectly well for other fans the original way, they're going to say that. Especially in a fandom where so many new fans take their view of the characters and their dynamics from fics rather than the source material - when fandom has that much of an influence on what new fans perceive to be 'canon,' fans are perfectly within their right to emphasize what is ACTUALLY canon and what isn't, so that new fans at least have the opportunity to determine for themselves what take they want to go with, instead of just accepting at face value that the nature of say, Dick and Roy's relationship is just that Roy hates Dick because of some mumble mumble ancient history vague mumble details not found mumble mumble fight.

[anastasiaskywalker4]

MisterLuu

That is actually the best pairing DC can make out of Trinity aside Lois and Clark. Or Bruce

and Clark for that matter. They both fit Bruce well, though Diana is even more matched with

him. In fact she's the best match romantically for him out there. At least so far. Though

number of fanfiction and arts on the net would suggest that that spot is reserved for

Superman not Wonder Woman :D

Except maybe for Silver and Julie - all Batman's love interest are abusive and downright

toxic. Selina, Talia, Adrea, Jet. Because in terms of comics and not relationships it fits

Gotham mold. People just tend to forget it after rebirth run. Yeah the one that made Batman

impotent and unable to do anything without the Cat around. Exactly that one. And tend to

forget how terrible as human beings his lovers really are.

Going back to the point. Both Talia and Selina tried to kill him multiple times in the past, or

those close to him. Whatever right? Who wouldn't like a lover that tried to end you few times

over. Both assaulted him physically and emotionally. Repeatedly. Both scared his body and

his mind. Repeatedly. Both tried to seduce his wards (adopted sons if u like), just to get to

him. In Talia's case that was basically pedophilia. That's just sick and makes you want to

puke. Both are possessive bitches, Cat threatening his flings while they are in bed while

Talia, well Talia can even go as far as beheading (to her credit she was right with this one).

Both makes him a goddamn hypocrite. Both face no repercussions after a cold blooded

murder while at the same time he berates Diana like a dick when she came to look for his

friendship and support after Max incident. Difference is she had no choice while Selina or

Talia most certainly had. Great move Bats, hypocrite much? And most importantly they both

lie and betray him, and leave him. Over and over again. Again, that's a constant with Cat

and miss Al Ghul. Diana never showed any of those traits with any of her lovers.

Get any counselor or psychiatrist to read actual Bat love history throughout the decades

and they would be writing books on how disfuncional they are. For a love-hate dynamics

they work fine. Or for some adrenaline fueled sex, but that's it. Hell, he even banged Dinah

when they were on adrenaline high. It all has a clinical term. Trauma bonding. As opposed

to authentic bonding. Which he could have with WW, had even one of them tried.

They did not though. Out of fear of ruining their mutual respect and deep bond. In

pre-flashpoint it may have been a thing if Diana acted on it. Again, Diana, not Bruce, so cut

the crap on how he was deflecting her. He was in doubt, yeah, but clearly was ready to give

it a go. She was the one that got scared even though she was clearly had over bat hills in

love with him. Even Martian stated this to Supes. Pre Crisis ? Not really. Some flirting and

kissing, nothing more. Post-flashpoint, New 52 and Rebirth ? Also not, though DC like to

tease those two. Forever Evil gets a hint that Bruce feels more than friendship towards her,

much to Selina's dismay. And that goddamn tension when they got to spends decades

together in another realm. Mostly from Diana side again. But no. The real canon love that Diana had for Bruce was during pre-flashpoint, not counting alternative universes. And it

was so strong that it showed her loving him more than her mother and sisters. And her

lasso forced her to admit it when facing Mera. But Bruce was "dead" at that point. So yeah,

never acted upon this. Pity. You could see she regretted it.

Aside their comics history in canon universe, realistically speaking Diana is way more

similar to Bruce than Selina will ever be (or Talia for that matter). Even though at a the first

glance they are nothing alike. She's the light , he's the darkness. She believes in love and

trust, tries to see the good in everyone. He's cunning, distrustful and downright realistic to

her idealistic approach. She's honest and straight while he will not hesitate to lie or to use

violence to get results. And you know what? It makes for great couple chemistry and

tension. It may be a cliche, yeah, but Yin and Yang dynamics work. That's why Clark ends

up with Lois all the freaking time. Even on elseworlds he and Diana are a thing only after

Lois is out of the picture. But that's not the most important thing. Yin and Yang provides for

a tension yes, but it would never last in the long run. For a relationship you need also

something in common. And Bruce has that in spades with Diana.

They might be on opposite side of the spectrum but than you realize how much alike they

really are. They are both kindred spirits. Both born fighters, warriors at heart. Arguably two

of the best in the world. At least Diana is according to Batman. And judging by Wonder

Woman's choices in man that is a highly important trait to her. Both endlessly fighting for

others. Both have utmost respect and admiration for each other. Both tirelessly train to

make themselves physically and spiritually better. Constantly. And to make the other better.

Their sparring sessions are legendary. And heated. Both with a great heart and

compassion. I would argue that Bruce's compassion is even bigger than Diana's. Even

though their methods might differ they share the same goal, which he has with no other

woman. Both have the heart of a warrior and are pushed by the circumstances of their

upbringing to reach for impossible dreams. They are also two of the most stubborn and

obstinate people in DC universe. Both perfectly capable of operating solo, and yet both

performing the best in a team. And yes, Bats is a great team player. Both natural leaders

that other heroes follow without hesitation. Both selfless and able to sacrifice for those they

value, trust and love. None of the other Bat trollups have any of those traits. Not to mention

they emotionally and physically find the other highly attractive. One being a literal goddess

and the other perfect male specimen. As for Batman, his relationships tend to collapse due

to a lack of trust. He's either unwilling to bring his romantic partner fully into his world or he

can't bring himself to trust completely. While Selina got his trust now, it's recent

development. And a mistake judging by latest issues. Again. One would think he's smarter.

When it comes to Diana, he trusts her. Fully. She's not privy like BatClan is to his world, but

they aren't that close in mainstream DC. She's not a psycho with daddy issues or a violent

narcissist. List can go on. Selina on the other hand doesn't have that much in common with

Bruce than she has. Not even close. He loves her, yes. But I don't see Di leaving him

countless times over the choices he makes. Or lying, or betraying, or trying to sleep with

Dick to spite him or... you get the point. Though there is one thing that gives Kyle an edge.

Immortality. Diana won't die unless killed. It doesn't make for a great long term relationship

prospect. But then again, those are comics, and he's a goddamn Batman. He would find a

way :)

The thing is - there is no other woman that fits his world as much as Diana does. And Bat is

capable to loving deeply and going to great commitments with a special woman. He showed

it with Andrea, he showed it with Silver. Problem is he always got burned. Every time he let

his guard down and opened himself. And he would have to do it when it comes to Wonder

Woman. She deserves that. It's hard to imagine with current Bruce, but it is most definitely

possible. It would be harder than with an ex criminal or an assassin though. Because there

would be much more on the line. The other two would crawl back anyway if he messed it

up, Di wouldn't.

There is also another aspect to this outside comic universe. His partners tend to be minor

characters compared to WW. She has her own series, JL, JL dark and every major

crossover/event happening in DC. They don't. And so does Batman. Both are one of the

most popular DC characters.

Besides changes to Bruce writing that are needed to make this work (cough.. pre flashpoint

Bats... cough), it would require fitting it to their distinctive titles. And frankly Diana can easily

function without any love interest and generate money. It's even easier that way. It fits her

as an independent, strong female character. Arguably most iconic of them all. And It's most

certainly easier for DC with a tease here and there than an actual WonderBat in mainstream.

Maisterluu wrote this is a comment on a YouTube video which is dow in the comments. They make really good points for ww and bats. No hate to other DC ships with ww and bats.

[dcomicsficrecs]

Do you have any fics with Jason just being a Bro™️? Or any with him rejoining the family after UTRH?

For the sake of this post not being too long, I am going to rec only one fic or series from an author, but all of these authors are great writers so I recommend checking their other works as well. Hope you will enjoy this fics as much as I do!

1. Jason and Damian being bros

1.1 Bet on it by Lysical  

Even Damian could admit that his older siblings occasionally had their uses. __

"I need your assistance," Damian said, voice low and tense.

"No," Jason replied, and hung up.

Short but adorable story of Jason helping out Damian to hide something from their father, just like big brothers out to do.

1.2 Cracked Foundation by Cdelphiki    

The last thing Damian expected to happen when he ran away from home was to spend a day crammed into a small space with Jason Todd.  His father's second son was a black sheep.  An outcast.  An angry, insanity driven criminal who enjoyed screwing with the batfamily in every way he could. At least, that's what Damian thought.  Maybe he was wrong about Todd.

Perfect hurt/comfort with a lot of family feels and Damian and Jason bodning. Bonus points: Jason actually apologizing for shooting him; exploration of Bruce’s relationships with them both too.

1.3   Good Grief by lysiabeth                

“I know who you are, you know. I got my degree at GCU.” The girl says, eyes boring into Jason’s chest as if the red bat were still plastered on it, and Jason’s back stiffens.

“Right.” Jason’s teeth click together as he closes his mouth. He’s eighteen-hundred miles out from Gotham, and of all the Goddamn vet centres he could have broken into it’s probably the only one around that knows anything about his city.

WIP with 8K words so far but worth early reading and bookmarking/subscribing. Case fic, plus Damian and Jason bonding as siblings through Talia? Leviathan also plays a part in this story? Hell yeah.

1.4 Jason and the Three Terrors by Cdelphiki                

One moment, Jason was peacefully sleeping, perfectly content with his life with the League of Assassins.  Okay, so maybe not content content, but he wasn't unhappy, either.  Then Talia woke him up at 2 am, threw three children at him, and told him to get them to America and far away from Ra's al Ghul.

What the fuck.

The last thing he wanted was to see Bruce. But with three brats relying on him and no Talia, there weren't many options for sanctuary. He just didn't expect the kids to grow on him so much in two short weeks.

A superb AU where Jason helps Damian escape League of the Assassin (against his wishes and with two unwanted additions to boot, which is half the pleausure). They aren’t brothers, stictly speaking, at the start of the fic, but become them as the story progresses.

It’s a WIP but it has 50K already and it will be so much more. I am excited with every update and I’m sure you’re gonna be, too.

2. Jason being a brother to Cassandra

2.1 Nests and Cages series by LanternWisp, Lysical starting with Needles or Pins  

Jason Todd's journey back to the Batfamily. Takes place in the Frankenstein's monster of a canon I've stitched together. Each plot is rather self-contained, but the fics do flow into one another

Jay and Cass are bio siblings, and Jason’s slow return to the fold. I love this series, and I think it’s one of the greatest take on Lady Shiva being Jason’s mother too.

2.2 Didymous  by   Hinn_Raven

Didymous: adjective: growing in pairs or twins.

Cassandra and Jason are born twins, raised by their father to be killers. Two heads are better than one.

It’s a great AU with Jay and Cass being biological siblings.

2.3 the patron saint of the lost causes series by evanescent

Pre-Flashpoint AU based on canon what-if Lady Shiva was not only Cassandra's biological mother, but Jason's, too. Mostly focuses on Cass and Jason's relationship, and how that fact changes the dynamics in Batfamily.

It is also a great series with Cass and Jay being biological siblings and I recommend reading every fic of this series.

2.4 Rebirth by Ionaperidot                

"The boy is clearly ill, and while she’s almost certain that he is, impossibly, Jason Todd, almost is not good enough. She can’t drop heartbreak on her beloved’s doorstep, and she can’t run the necessary tests when Damian is vulnerable to her father’s wrath. There’s no way around it. He’ll have to come home with her."

Unexpectedly in charge of a second son, Talia struggles to raise her children without unwanted attention from the Demon's Head.

An AU where Talia is the one who unites Cass and Jason. It also contains Damian, and he’s a little brother to them both.

3. Jason and Duke being bros

3.1 Bats are Dorks by   Reah22                

Duke hadn’t meant to literally trip and fall on to Jason. He really hadn’t. For the record, he blamed Steph. It was probably one of her old pranks that she forgot to take down. That, or she deliberately left it up for someone to trip over in the dark.

Just Duke and Jason, hanging out. Super nice.

3.2 oh, where do i begin? by LazuliQuetzal

“No, no, nothing’s wrong,” Jason says. “We’re a-okay. Just peachy. Good times.”

“Oh,” Duke says, lamely, working himself out of crisis mode. There’s an awkward silence for a moment before he speaks up again. “Why did you call?”

“Right, right," Jason mumbles, which seemed a little out of character to Duke. His sort-of wayward brother was generally intimidating, even when he wasn't trying to be. "Uh, Dick said that you had a guinea pig when you were younger. How do you take care of a guinea pig?” _____

AKA, not-exactly accidental guinea pig acquisition

Absolutely adorable short story about Jason going to his little brother for advice.

3.3 rockstar au series by addiebey starting with disconnect:

jason and duke bond. dick just doesn't get it, but what's new?

Another great no-capes AU. Only two fics from the series, both under 1k, are focused on Duke and Jason, but they are so great. The whole series is, actually, though it’s not finished. I am just grateful even this much exists, but I am definitely bookmarking and subscribing it in case there will be more. Please give this series the attention and praise it deserves.

There are, alas, not many Duke and Jason-centered fics. Though there is another one I wanted to recommend, about Jason training Duke, but I can’t find it for some reason. It was short and funny, and if anyone recognizes this description, I would be glad if you told me.

4. Jason and Dick being bros

4.1 i was naive and hopeful and lost by heroics (figure8)

Clark and Bruce take in a troubled teen.

The The Fosters AU no one asked for.

It’s a part of the series which is one of the best no-capes AU I’ve read, if not the best, and it’s a great family-focused fic with a good parent Bruce. The road for Jason to become Dick’s and the rest of the kids’ brother is slow but greatly written.

4.2 To Reconcile by CasualDanger      

“Babs slapped me at your funeral.”  Jason goes to laugh, but it’s just a cough and his mouth barely even twitches up.  “She hated me in that moment.  I mean, really, really hated me, like I did Talia after I found out Damian had died.  And I wondered,” his voice cracks, eyes glassy now, “did you hate anyone when I was gone?  Because I was gone?”

Short and emotional fic where Dick and Jason open up to each other during pressing circumstances.

4.3  Five Times Dick Grayson Read about Jason Todd in the Newspaper by Engineerd              

If Dick hadn’t been special ordering the Gotham City Gazette, he wouldn’t have found out for - well. Years, at this rate.

Short and very full of emotion story. I love the exploration of Dick’s almost unchanging attitude toward Jason - well, unchanging right before the last time he would read about him (or almost the last time). They’re not really close here, and won’t grow closer, but sometimes siblinghood is like that.

4.4 The View From Jade by lowflyingfruit                

Being transported to the past is not the sort of thing one normally expects. But this having happened, and with no easy way back, Jason's determined to make the most of it. Though the Bat still stalks Gotham's streets, the city's crime is run by the mobs instead of the rogues. There's no Joker yet.

There's no Robin.

Maybe there shouldn't be.

Time Travel Jason&Dick focused AU! One of the best time travel fics where they actually change stuff even if it doesn’t transit to their universe - for exception of their more strong brotherly relationships.

5. Jason and Stephanie being bros

5.1 this time, the loser wins by parkerstorms

They were two sides of the same coin.  They understood each other.  It was nice.  It was a downright relief.  She’d never had a big brother before.

There’s not a lot of Jason and Steph being bros stories I have not mentioned before, but this one is one of them, and a great one too.

6. Jason and Tim being bros

6.1 Bonding Habits of Robins by  GoAwayOlivia                

Giving each other shit is how the bat brothers show they care. Jason and Tim do it particularly well.

It’s a funny and nice fic with exactly what’s said in the summary.

There’s a lot of fics with Jason and Tim being bros but my memorie went blank when I tried to recall. Which is not a statement about their relationships or quality of fics that depict them, it’s just sometimes my memory doesn’t work properly. This is the case with the Jason and Steph, too. As soon as I remember or discover new fics about their relationships, I am going to update this post or maybe create a new one just for the three of them. We’ll see!

7. Batfam Jason-featured sibling relationships

7.1 If the Sky Comes Falling Down (For You)  by  lurkinglurkerwholurks

or, 5 times Jason Todd saved his siblings... and one time they saved him.

It was only by luck that Jason was still there when the bodies came crashing down the street. Bad luck, he would argue. He could hear them long before he could see them, their bodies preceded by the thunderous pounding of boots of asphalt and shouted curses. Three or four figures flashed by his little alleyway, a tight mob followed by a lone, slender figure in a streaming cape.

Summary speaks for itself. It’s a gradual description of Jason slowly coming back to the family after UtRH and starting feeling like their brother.

7.2  this is a long drive (for three robins who don't agree on much) by   drakefeathers

(Bad Robins road trip AU!) Steph’s trip home to Gotham takes a huge detour thanks to Jason and Damian’s conflicts with airport security. She’s stuck driving the two brothers cross-country to reach Tim’s wedding in time.

Damian, Jason & Steph bonding road trip AU that warms your heart. Seriously, if you like any of these characters, you read this.

7.3 on a thin chain of moments and something like faith series  by irnan

Jason really oughta know better than to talk to Bats.

Jason bonding with both Steph and Cass! Love it. It’s fluff and angst, which is hard to pull off together, but it works here. It also, in places, incredibly funny. I love re-reading it from time to time.

7.4   Tremor by  LueurdeLaube              

Nobody can tell Jason Todd that joking about his own death is not a valid coping mechanism.

Not about Jason being a bro per se but about Batfam and Jason so I hope it counts!

7.5. the lost sidekick society by  redtruthed                

The batkids make a group chat.

Chaos ensues.

One of the best groupchat AU for Batfam.

[necrotic-nephilim]

for the recent ask game, i’m really curious about your take on 7 + 8 :P

for the choose violence ask game!

7. what character did you begin to hate not because of canon but because how the fandom acts about them?

i'll be so honest: Jason Todd. i know there's a lot of argument of "who has the worst fans" and i think that question is flawed and impossible to answer, but i will say Jason fans irked me so deeply. because i read mostly 90s era Batfam, i admittedly didn't have a lot of exposure to Jason for a while, expect for his New-52 runs i'd read years ago. and since i never liked him based on those runs, i could not understand *what* his fans liked about him, or where they got some of their headcanons/ideas from. i've never been more baffled. it ranges from "oh i don't agree but you do you, i guess?" to "what character are you talking about i am BAFFLED". and it soured me on Jason for so long that i actually hate read *most* of his pre-Flashpoint appearances just to understand what on earth people liked about him. and now i can say, i love him dearly, but i can also say, i still don't know what character his fans are talking about sometimes. and i hate the fanon version of Jason who feels almost, Deadpool-ified? with this self-aware slapstick humor but a sad soft interior but also sassy and will kill a man it's just. it feels very hollow to me and it has made me almost tempted to block his character tag more than once over the years bc sometimes certain takes make it difficult to even like him. i just have to tune it out or yell about it for hours.

8. common fandom opinion that everyone is wrong about

i'm going to get particularly saucy with this one: that Dick Grayson has Eldest Daughter Syndrome. or more generally, that he was parentified. not a single ounce of Dick's backstory indicates him as being parentified. to be parentified you have to be a child taking care of other children either emotionally or physically because your parents are not fulfilling that role. and Dick was *never* a child at the time that another child was under Bruce's care. he has been an adult for the entirety he has known every other Batkid. and even then, the *only* one he was something you could akin to being a parent figure to was Damian, and Dick *chose* that. Dick was a grown-ass man in his late 20s who had the facilities and capacity to make the decision to be Damian's primary caretaker. he's never been parental toward any of the other Batkids, nor has Bruce ever forced upon him the role of having to raise them. did Bruce do a sort of questionable job with Dick? yeah. but i would argue Bruce did the best job with Dick of all the Batkids, and even if he was shitty with Dick, he couldn't parentify Dick bc there was no one for Dick to be parenting. and Dick wasn't parenting Bruce either. they just had a normal relationship of loving and caring for each other.

as for Eldest Daughter Syndrome i just.. i Do Not Like calling any male character "female coded" or "female rage coded" or "eldest daughter coded" because they're *not*. especially not in *this* medium. these are male characters, created by men, written by men 90% of the time, and written to be *male power fantasies*. nothing about Dick or Jason or any Batboy is female-coded bc they exist to be badass men. just because they show emotion and have complex relationships with Bruce doesn't make them suddenly women. Dick shows his anger in a very destructive, stereotypically "masculine" way. even if we strip it of gender, Dick doesn't exhibit most traits of Eldest Daughter Syndrome. he easily makes relationships with people his age, he has no issues telling Bruce no, he did not have caretaking responsibilities forced onto him by Bruce, he's not even really hyperindependent. Dick has a support system outside of the Bats, the fandom just ignores it. does Dick force caretaking responsibilities onto himself sometimes? can he be an overachiever? absolutely. but these are internal complexes that just come with making a character a superhero, it's a complex they all have. if i have to hear one more fan call him Eldest Daughter Syndrome-core or say he's a victim of parentification, i think I'll explode a little bit.

[scandalsavagefanfic]

Understand My Ship in 5 Minutes

I had to.

It was my duty to all 7 people who love this as much as I do.

(@jason-rarepairs)

Some notes:

Thomas is officially Bruce’s size but he’s usually drawn bigger and since I saw people shrinking Dick, I figured I could give Tom a couple extra inches.

Pre-Flashpoint ages are the only ones that make sense and changing them changes the character’s dynamics and makes their relationships make NO sense. They’re also kind of recanonized. Either way, they’re the only ones I’ll ever use. (Thomas has no canon age so I’m guessing based on Bruce being in his 30’s).

Jason occasionally “makes” Thomas be little spoon because he knows the old man needs to be held as much as Jason does himself.

Thomas mostly calls Jason “son” and “kid” which Jason pretends to hate. He will also make a point of calling Jason “beautiful” (like, “good morning, beautiful”) just to watch him blush. He occasionally calls him “angry bird” because he’s an asshole and thinks it’s cute when Jason scowls but it’s almost always followed by “dearest”, “my love”, or “angel” (which he only uses because Jason told him “little miracle” was too much and “little zombie boy” was not enough. Thomas may still slip up on that last one.)

Jason puts bees back outside on flowers but figures the world has enough spiders and wasps are demons from hell. Thomas figures the world has enough of all “insects” and doesn’t understand, no matter how many times Jason tells him and gives him unimpressed looks, why he should care about a random bee who dares to invade his domain.

They argue over who drives and neither are quite as good at it as they think they are. Thomas because he had a driver for most of his life, and Jason because he’s used to motorcycles.

Jason only hates PDA because he doesn’t know how to deal with it. Every time Thomas so much as puts his arm around Jason’s waist, or kisses his forehead in public, Jason gets nervous and sweaty... and growly to take attention away from the fact he doesn’t know what to do with blatant declarations of affection.

Thomas is down for anything, anytime. Jason’s base level horniness is pretty low, but it ramps up quickly when Thomas starts touching him or even just gives him that look.

They’re both super jealous and overly protective. Jason is more obvious about his jealousy, more likely to sit in a corner and pout scowl, and give Tom a piece of his mind on the drive home. Thomas on the other hand, surreptitiously watches every one of Jason’s interactions like a hawk (Bruce comes by this shit honestly, after all), gripping his champagne flute too tightly, and vigorously reminding Jason why he’s the best option when they get home (unless they have a driver, in which case Thomas raises the partition and doesn’t wait that long to reassert his position in Jason’s life).

So yeah. That’s my ship. Now you know.

[nightwingmyboi]

Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis are arguably reboots as well. Infinite Crisis brought Jason and the multiverse back, though we'd already seen both. It did erase Lori Elton. Zero Hour mostly rebooted (or erased) franchises not set in present day, but Dick became two years younger, and other little changes. (Get it? Because the Atom's a teenager. Still was married to Jean apparently, which is even creepier, considering what she eventually does.)

Also, Crisis is more complicated. Dick Grayson was kidnapped and tortured by Brother Blood pre-Crisis? Here he's the Manchurian candidate. Barbara Gordon is still a retired politician (until Dixon gets hold of her). However, some characters (Supergirl) were simply erased. Still others had the trouble of compromisong their Earth-One and Earth-Two selves. (Hawkman and Hawkgirl) Actually, Donna Troy's issues begin here as well.

Yeah, DC comics continuity is pretty complicated. My intent with that other ask was to outline the basics...sorry if it came off as an oversimplification? There is just a ton to unpack when considering continuity. DC just keeps throwing multiverse hopping, timeline altering shenanigans into the mix! It’s confusing as hell, and the writers themselves barely keep up with it all half the time. But hey, if people are really wanting to dive into the nitty gritty of DC continuity (like anon has said, I didn’t mention Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, Flashpoint, “hypertime,” Convergence, etc. all of which might be considered reboots/relaunches/ whatevers) than these might be good links for that [x] [x]. I feel it is wayyy too much for me to tackle honestly. 

Literally, the stuff with Donna Troy alone is a headache to consider, lmao. I think just understanding the basics is enough to get by for the most part with this stuff. But I didn’t mean to misrepresent anything, so thanks for your input anon.

[bitimdrake]

I’ve seen some people upset/complaining about Connor Hawke beating Damian in Robin, but I’m not sure why? Like if Damian’s your favorite it makes sense you wouldn’t want to see him lose, but isn’t Connor like, canonically, explicitly one of the top ten martial artists in the entire DC universe? He’s gone toe-to-toe with Lady Shiva, he and Cassandra were shown to be equally matched even when Connor was just on defense because he didn’t want to fight her. Damian’s great! He’s very very skilled! But I think if he’d beaten Connor I think that would’ve been very wrong. Can I get your thoughts?

I haven't gotten to Damian's Robin run yet, so I can't comment on the actual execution, but in concept--yeah, I'm with you!

I get why people want their faves to win fights and be cool and badass, but imo it's just...so boring if a hero can't lose. Protagonists have gotta fail sometimes. And it's very silly to complain when they lose to a more than worthy opponent.

Which Connor Hawke absolutely is! I'm not a Connor expert, but I've read some comics with him, and he is consistently held up as a top tier martial artist. The fight I know of between him and Lady Shiva was in an era (and under a writer) where Shiva was being taken very seriously as a threat, so it didn't turn out great for him (iirc she broke his arm), but it was very much noted how impressive he was for being able to hold his own. Hell, afaik, Connor is one of the weakest archers in his archer-centric family, and that's because his focus was more on hand-to-hand. He could beat a lot of people. He's very good.

On the flip side, Damian is also a very good fighter, but I'm pretty sure he's meant to be the weakest of the bats pre-Flashpoint. That may well have changed in more recent years (I wouldn't be surprised), but ultimately I don't think being the best fighter ever is, like...an important narrative part of Damian's character? Being very, very good in a fight is, but I'd say Damian's story around fighting is more about being an incredibly (concerningly) well trained child than about being One Of The Best Ever.

Honestly, I feel like this is mostly just a case of character bias--people want their faves to win--with a side order of Damian being a more well known character than Connor (esp to the readers of Robin).

tl;dr: the protagonist losing is important for a good story, always winning is not important to Damian's character, and there's nothing contradictory in Connor beating him.

[soleminisanction]

What was Stephanie’s relationship with her father like? All I know is that she has an intense dislike of him. But I don’t have a clear reason why.

Honestly? That's a very good question. You'd be surprised how rarely they actually interact.

I'm going to focus pre-Flashpoint for this answer since DC apparently gave Arthur a more cohesive origin story when they decided to make him the big bad in a Batman Eternal storyline, but I haven't read that because I would sooner put out an eye than subject myself to that era's terrible forced TimSteph bullshit. Here's what I know off the top of my head though:

In her first appearance (Detective Comics #647-649), Stephanie's initial justification for her actions is simply, quote, "I hate his guts. I have to have a world-class psycho for a dad. I'd like to see him rot in jail." It's pretty explicit in this original story that, while she is working against her father, she's not meant to be viewed as a heroic figure. Bruce even says as much.

Thing is though that she and her dad don't actually interact at all until the very end. Arthur has just gotten out of jail and -- despite what stories even later in this post will try to imply -- he doesn't seem to have gone anywhere near his family. He's working out of an apartment in the inner city, and somehow kept the fact that he even had a wife and child completely off the public record, to the point that Tim only tracks Stephanie down because her mom had visited Arthur in prison under the name "Mrs. Agnes Bellinger."

So Steph and Arthur don't actually interact, at all, until the very end of the story, when -- in what later stories might have deliberately paralleled for the incident that ultimately got her fired from being Robin -- Stephanie defied Batman's orders to leap down into a fight and was immediately taken hostage.

Arthur threatens what he thinks is a boy in a costume with sulfuric acid, leading Bruce to reveal Stephanie's identity to save her life. And Arthur immediately lets her go. It's hard to read his expression exactly because mask he mostly looks shocked, maybe a little horrified at what he was about to do.

And then this happens.

So yeah, suffice it to say the relationship seems to have been bad -- she claims he "destroyed her life" -- but we don't really know how, and so far as I'm aware it's not really elaborated on.

To be honest, their whole relationship can be very he-said, she-said. Like, early on, there's a storyline Robin where Steph gets kidnapped by a gang so they can hold her hostage and force Arthur (who's in prison) into planning robberies for them to commit, only for Stephanie to then insist that Arthur arranged the whole thing. And the story just accepts that as the obvious truth, with Arthur's only response to the accusation being, "We were never close," but frankly that plot twist makes very little sense to me. It mostly seems to have been inserted just so Stephanie has an excuse to act all self-righteous when Batman tells her to go home.

It's sporadically but inconsistently suggested that Arthur was abusive. In an issue of Cass's Batgirl Stephanie says this:

And in Secret Origins 80-Page Giant -- a collection of origin retellings release around the time YJ was getting started -- he's shown hitting Crystal for money and tossing Steph around when she's younger.

But. That story is also told from Steph's point of view, with her explicit narration being that she's talking to her baby bump, and when she gets to the part describing the aforementioned Detective Comics origin story, it's explicitly cleaned up to make her look more heroic and capable.

Which can just as easily mean that Stephanie is being an unreliable narrator. She's not only one in the book -- Cassie (Wonder Girl) also talks herself up because her framing story is trying to impress a boy, but in her case it's more obvious because there's a deliberate exaggeration to the storytelling.

Later on, when she's giving birth, Steph has like... a stress nightmare? Where she's playing with the baby at home but then her dad shows up and takes it away from her and drags it into a big superhero/supervillain fight on the lawn and that seems to be what makes her fully commit to giving the kid up for adoption. But that could be a metaphor about not wanting to bring the kid into the dangerous superhero life.

A bit later on (Robin #93 I believe) there's a storyline where Arthur and Riddler are working out of Steph's house, and when he catches Steph stalking them Arthur threatens to kill Steph and her mother. But then, literally his next appearance, Arthur agrees to join a Suicide Squad mission while saying this...

And he dies on that mission. And Steph's told about it. And she has some, I think understandably, conflicted emotions about it... although less understandable is the way she screams insults at her mother and then breaks their stuff before storming off into a week-long vigilantism bender that nearly gets her and Tim killed.

In the denouncement to that arc there's the closest we really get to an examination of their relationship -- as written by a completely different creative team than those who created her originally or who wound up defining her with Batgirl, for what it's worth. It's a little awkward because it tries to explain the design of her Spoiler costume as a metaphor for their relationship...

Which I don't think works very well. And then it escalates into this long and really uncomfortably lurid story about a babysitter creeping on Steph, Steph running away from home to escape him, and Arthur maybe murdering the guy while Steph questions whether he did it to protect her or because the guy mess with "his territory."

But then. There's what happens after she dies. After War Games came a storyline called War Crimes where it turned out that Arthur had actually faked his death, and so returned to Gotham under the alias "Aaron Black" aka "the Reformer." He basically led a big public campaign against Batman in Stephanie's name, blaming him for her death, trying to get the law to hold him accountable, and ruining his reputation in the public eye. All while saying things like this.

After this exchange, he's literally never seen again until he randomly appears in a cell at the end of her Batgirl run.

So yeah. I think it's safe to say that their relationship is complicated. We mostly get it from Stephanie's side, and from her point of view it was terrible, hateful, and abusive -- but she also insists on multiple occasions that he never cared for her, and that's clearly not true even from their very first appearance together. So take that as you will.