#memory wipe theory

[tonydaddingham]

have any of the angels directly interacted with the metatron, even in heaven? ive seen a couple of posts asking how crowley and saraqael recognise the metatron, and why aziraphale and the others don't. seems like aziraphale recognises the metatron purely based on crowley's description-

-as opposed to his memory being jogged, and him suddenly recognising the metatron for himself. as it is, we know that michael and uriel also do not recognise him without being told by aziraphale, so we can reliably deduct that there is some disconnect between the floating head 'true form' the metatron takes in heaven, and the humanoid form he's taking in the bookshop. aziraphale doesn't make the link, and neither do the archangels.

so why is crowley - and saraqael, if their nervous disposition when michael is chatting shit is anything to go by - able to recognise him in this form? how are they able to make the link between the true from, and this one? what is there to recognise?

i think that's potentially more the question - not why the others didn't recognise him, but instead why these two did. what is possibly in common between them, but not the others?

it might be that crowley recognises him by something other than sight (re: he can sense when aziraphale is on earth and when he isn't) but that again wouldn't make sense to me; why do the archangels not recognise him in the same way, from gabriel's trial that ostensibly only occurred a few days ago? unless it's a demon trait... but then that doesn't explain saraqael.

is it voice? unknown, possibly... but raises the same question of why the archangels and aziraphale didnt recognise him.

so idk, but my only thought/theory at this time is that it's linked to memory. as in; the physical capability of it. there may perhaps be something inherent about the metatron that ensures that angels can't remember him, or more specifically can't store the memory of him? or, alternatively, it's mandatory that after each interaction, this part of their memory is manually removed?

something that they wouldn't be able to do to crowley - a demon - or to saraqael because... well, someone seems to be in charge of erasing memories, right?

[di-42]

Agree with this. I would also add that I always thought he remembered both, Saraqael and FurFur, he was just being Crowley when he said he didn't, just to irritate them.

Crowley does not have memory loss.

I very disagree with the Crowley has memory loss from the Fall theory, and I want to enumerate my points.

"He doesn't remember Furfur or Saraqael!" you say. Do you remember everyone you went to high school* with, everyone you ever did group projects with? *or elementary school if you're under 20 He probably worked with a lot of different angels on nebulae, and fought alongside a lot of different demons-to-be in the war. Look at the scene we saw with Aziraphale. You just know she wasn't paying attention to what Aziraphale said his name was and was going to have to ask when they met again. Angel!Crowley has got ADHD hyperfixations and the people around him aren't as interesting. Barely worth acknowledging. Meanwhile, he himself is quite memorable to others. (Not to mention highly-ranked in heaven's hierarchy.) What did Furfur say? "You used to jump on me back, little monkey in the waistcoat." Who's the more memorable being in that encounter? The (literal?) monkey hopping around jumping on people or whatever poor sod he's hopping on? As someone who stood out in school as a weirdo, I myself have more than once had someone hit me up on Facebook years later acting like we'd been friendly in school, and experienced that exact "??? Who are you?"

He remembers creating gravity. Vaguely, you say? Sure, but it was a long time ago. While all told Crowley and Aziraphale have excellent memories, they are not perfect. See them not able to recall who was responsible for the Reign of Terror only ~200 years ago.

"I helped make that nebula" he also recalls.

Crowley easily recognized the Metatron saying he'd last seen him as a floating head. As an angel with a lot of questions for God, he would have talked to the Metatron all the time before the Fall.

Reiterating above point, in Uz, they remember trying to get through to God to ask their questions.

He knows how to sneak into heaven and remembers his passwords.

He remembers going into battle.

He remembers frightening the cherubs with the threat of Extreme Sanctions.

In Eden, Aziraphale didn't know what name they were going by, so had to ask, but note that Crowley neither asked Aziraphale's name nor did Aziraphale introduce himself. "We've been talking for millions of years," he told Maggie and Nina. Perhaps he was being hyperbolic, but perhaps not. Before "the Beginning" when the Earth itself was created there was an untold amount of time where the angels were all getting things ready and then warring amongst themselves. I think it's clear that one scene we saw was not their only encounter before the Fall, and Crowley remembers his prior acquaintance with Aziraphale. Mightn't he have had some hesitation in approaching the Guardian of the Eastern Gate if he didn't already know him? But no, he slithers right up that wall and starts a conversation with a tone of familiarity.

Again, in Uz, they both acknowledge how they knew each other in heaven.

And finally, if you're thinking of Neil Gaiman saying how Crowley is an unreliable narrator regarding the circumstances of his Fall, everything he says that seems contradictory can be just as easily explained by lies, denial, rationalizations, equivocations, half-truths, etc. At no point does he say he doesn't remember falling or even why it happened. He just laments the injustice of it.

[teh-nos]

and another thing!!!

"doesn't rtd understand this show is about change?"

no? no, he clearly doesn't and he never has. his ideal doctor who is rose tyler (lbr his mary-sue, because however much i am told not to use that term she clearly is one) and a doctor that looks like david tennant and everything else is Wrong and we must constantly be told that. 10 "mourning" rose that much is not in-character, actually, it is not an unavoidable issue, it's a deliberate writing choice to Not Let Go of rtd's one true companion. so martha jones gets fucked over (again, a choice was made to focus on her love for the doctor and how he could never ever want her), and rtd doesn't care and neither did the fandom because they too thought that rose being gone was a glitch to be fixed. because rtd fucking encouraged them to.

so rose is somehow in s3 even though she isn't, and then she's back in s4 where she is given a man who looks like david tennant. to look after. and 'heal'. (aside: no, the 9th doctor was healed by running into people and things that made him confront the past. rose was just a nice distraction for him between those brief therapy sessions. yet she's given the credit for them. because of course the one true companion must have done that!)

and then when he has to write out david tennant... *sigh* off we go to see rose fucking tyler again after spending the rest of our time being sad about not being david tennant anymore, and he goes out COMPLAINING that he can't face not being david tennant in the tardis with rose "russell t" tyler. and then you wonder why people stopped watching at that point? you wonder why they still complain about the eleventh doctor not being david tennant? they were told to!

and then rtd comes back. and so does david tennant. and... yes we can all see where this is going HOW DID YOU NOT? rtd has never been willing to move on and accept change. he hates having to change things in doctor who. this has been obvious since 2007. but fandom liked martha being fucked over in the name of rose-and-david-tenannt so they just ignored it.

[flamingthespian]

Idea: Sebastian is trans, Sam and Sebastian are dating and have been since before seb came out, which happened while kent was deployed. So when kent left for war he knew his teenage son had a “girlfriend,” and when he comes back, his young adult son now has a boyfriend, and he doesn’t realize it’s the same person, so he’s like, “why did Sam never write to me about breaking up with that girl or coming out as queer and starting to date this guy,” and doesn’t understand why Sam’s new boyfriend that he’s never met is acting somewhat familiar with him

[arthur-lesters-glabella]

I’m just going to throw it out there that I think Kayne will use Faroe’s music box as a lure once again at some point (since it is used in part 20 and in s3 with Uncle in part 26 I think?) but this time Arthur will know it’s not Faroe and go anyway. For old times sake, really.

[di-42]

Agree. Crowley telling Furfur and Saraqael he doesn't remember them is just Crowley behaving crowleily and messing with them because it could be beneficial in the long run or just for his own amusement. I don't believe his memories were wiped. There's nothing that suggest fallen angels had their memories wiped, memory wiping is only mention in relation to Gabriel who was being demoted but not made to fall.

I'm not really on the team that swears to Jesus and beyond that Crowley lost his memories after the Fall. Yes, of course, he forgot some stuff because, ya know, he has been alive for more than 6000 years and if I don't remember what I ate for lunch yesterday, Satan knows he won't remember every single second of his life, but he remembers the important things

"Ah, but what about him not remembering fighting alongside FurFur or building the thingy with Saraqael?"

Love, I give you two options:

Those are either some of the stuff he didn't consider important enough to remember OR he is just straight up fucking with them. He does remember, but why reveal it if playing dumb sometimes is good in the long run? Might be useful

Alas, I don't know, but I will die on the hill that he does remember

Which means he most probably remembers meeting Aziraphale. Not because Aziraphale was "important" at the time per se, or because it was love at first sight (because it wasnt, not for him. Bro was so focused on the nebula he didnt even introduce himself when Aziraphale did. He threw him a "Right. Nice to meet ya. Anyway, nebula time!"), but because he was there when Crowley created the nebula and, as he said, he had been waiting for that moment since "well, always". It's an important moment for him, so he remembers. Aziraphale just so happened to be present

I don't know if that was the only interaction they had in Heaven or not (and that's not the point I'm trying to get to so I will ignore that problem for a later post, maybe), but when the now Demon Crawley was sent up to the Garden, he did remember Aziraphale. That's why he approached him

Cmon, Crowley isn't stupid. Of course he wouldn't approach an angel on the wall just willy nilly and make conversation. He didn't know Aziraphale had given away the flaming sword yet. Just approaching an angel from behind and morph into a demon next to him out of nowhere could be a death sentence. Or at least an A Line for a good smitting

Yet, he did it. He had at least 3 other angels to choose from but he approached the angel that he remembered from back in the beginning that was kind enough to help him with the engine of the nebula. Hell! I even bet this was not the first time they saw each other in the Garden!

Bet they've seen and observed each other from afar a few times while they interacted with the humans (yes, cause I believe Crawley, before tempting Eve, tried to gain her trust. It's easier to listen to a friend than a random snake) or just around the Garden really.

That's why Aziraphale didn't get surprised when Crawley showed up at the wall, because he knew the demon snake had been around the Garden for a while. He probably even recognized him as the former Star Maker and hoped he was still a little bit of his old self so he allowed himself to engage in conversation

Anyhow, another clue? This:

He remembers how Heaven works. He remembers he was a high ranking angel. Satan, he remembers the bloody passwords!

Do you know what else he remembers?

Cause they didn't throw that line in there for nothing. No, gents. Cmon. Nothing is random in Good Omens

He knows who he was. He remembers being the Star Maker that hung the stars in the sky

He remembers why he fell, for goodness sake

And the fact that he remembers everything makes all of it so much more tragic, doesn't it? He remembers his life before the Fall, his supposed friends that dragged him into the pit with them, what Her love felt like, the "mistakes" he made that led to his Fall

And it must have hurt. It must have hurt so much when he found himself in a pit of boiling sulfur with his wings completely burned and without Her love because he remembered it all. He must have been so bloody confused for so long

He might have regretted it. All the questions and the company he kept that made him Fall. But he doesn't anymore.

He knows he doesn't need Heaven, he doesn't need Hell. They are toxic. All he needs is his pacific fragile existence on Earth with Aziraphale and yet...well, that's something else he won't forget now, is it?

*clears throat*

I rest my case

[arcadianambivalence]

Personally, I think we as a fandom don't talk nearly enough about how a woman named Alice is prominently listed among the list of known Théâtre des Vampires victims in 2x03.

I know Alice was a fairly popular name for first first half of the 20th century, but it's interesting that of all names, this is the one attributed to an icon with only half of her face showing.

IWTV 2x03 / IWTV 1x02

[fearandhatred]

the funniest thing ever would be if my muriel is god theory becomes canon in s3. i think it would be genuinely hilarious

[phosphoresccent]

digs out my lalna timeline. we can assume he (and the others) are very likely fresh clones. Lalna's our best bet for timeline since he's not sporting flux scars, or flux at all, so his master clone would be from before Flux Buddies.

That rules out. Very little. (Flux Buddies + Cornerstone, really.) BUT there are other clues we can use. He knows Rythian enough that he knows he's connected to the End, and has some relationship with him, one that doesn't seem negatively tinged at all from what we've seen.

I can't believe we're getting another timeline paradox so soon. Lalna you treat us. Because for him to have a positive relationship with Rythian, this master clone would have to be OLD. Maybe this is Lalnable, or just before Lalnable? But then he's aware of a lot of stuff thats happened since then, like JF1 and its sequels.

I'm just spitballing he fascinates me.

rotates lalna at great speeds.

it's also possible (not sure how likely, but certainly possible) that there has been some off-screen character development/interaction between lal and rythian, but i'm really more on team "someone is missing some context here"

and yeah! given the context that none of them (apparently - im side eyeing barry here) remember what they were doing before they showed up on planet, these are likely very freshly minted clones. lalna is really the only one who ever visibly changed with time, but the memories and the bodies don't have to be synced up so that obfuscates the timeline further.

xephos remembers at least some of yoglabs - he may not remember if yoglabs is currently up and running? (we, the viewers, have no idea either, so there isn't a clear frame of reference here) -> he also almost certainly remembers the death of the master honeydew clone, and likely lalnable, just from the way he talks about cloning in the series

(there is also a little bit of a hypercubed reference in the stream? lewis doesn't remember exactly what he's referencing, but i believe thats the only other time they'd used that spacial drive mod much? please anyone correct me if im wrong here -> so this places xephos pretty late in yoglabs, but doesn't help with lalna at all, because that was a lalnable in that series too)

rythian knows enough about lalna to ask him for a favour (if we believe rythian was aware he was asking lalna specifically, which i think we can assume based off the conversational tone of the request), but unless rythian is missing a lot of memories, i'm not sure why he'd ask lalna for anything really??? xephos and barry know of rythian, but make no reference to any series he's in, which really doesn't help at all.

honeydew seems to be missing the most memories -> basically just jaffa factory/hole diggers/moon quest and their related gubbins (depending on how we think the timeline goes, he may or may not know about SOI either - duncan references it in an episode but thats very much not at all in character)

tldr: i don't know either, i'm very confused but i'm having a lot of fun here!

[yowlthinks]

I can see these hints (which I refuse to believe), but honestly if this is the plot, PLEASE, PLEASE don't let Aziraphale get his memories wiped, please! We can't have them loosing 6000 years of friendship and love! They've been shaped by their experiences on Earth, all this can't just be removed without damaging them completely!

Memories and experiences make us who we are (see Gabriel's transformation!), so I really, really don't want to believe Neil would do that to us

So the theory that Muriel was once a higher angel who had their memory wiped hold true. S2E2 Aziraphale goes to talk to someone about the credibility of the permit Crowley has and it's Muriel who is checking to see if its real. In this scene they are sure of themselves and Aziraphale isn't talking to them cajolingly, but rather as someone who has higher position than him. Which means between 2500 BC and current era, Muriel spoke out against the angels and their memory was wiped because of it.

[tonydaddingham]

edit 16/04: pouring one out for the bullet theory, you were fun whilst you lasted babes x

okay ive remained sceptical about the 'something in the mouth' thoughts making the rounds but you know what, i love a batshit theory (exactly how batshit, remains to be seen - im fully prepared to eat my words) as much as anyone, so let's take a look.

first off, i truly just thought it might have been a wee bit of slobber. that's fair, right? saliva on aziraphale's tongue, catches the light, whatever. but it's the frame before that one that has me wondering how much weight the theory has:

because in that first one, just as aziraphale's mouth opens, you can see that there is - what looks like - a dark, round object. it doesn't match the surrounding colour and texture of aziraphale's tongue, and then in the next few frames it catches the light in the same exact spot. the highlight is also curved, in such a way that, yeah, it definitely looks like a metallic object.

i know im not breaking new ground when suggesting it contains memories. idk if the object itself is:

a bullet from the rifle in 1941 (although i do doubt it; the calibre it would take would be rather unwieldy to hold in your mouth like this? plus: copper plating - this looks to be steel)

a pistol round from the hitherto-unseen derringer (more likely than the above, and in terms of potential significance of s3 would fit rather nicely in with a 1941 spec of mine regardless: potential crowley discorporation but. it's purely hypothetical), or

a ball bearing (which seems like it would just be a bit anomalous in terms of what props we've seen so far, but who knows. and i feel like if any prop was going to be at most risk of being swallowed accidentally, it's this)

but my current favourite is the derringer round so far. which would indicate that if - big if - crowley were discorporated in 1941, he could potentially have the bullet on him that 'killed' him, so to speak, for the time that follows afterwards.

i'll come back to what memories would be contained within it in a sec, because first, there's the question of whether aziraphale accessed them. if this theory is true (im fully taking this all with a pinch of salt, idk how i actually feel about it yet), i think aziraphale probably accessed them right then and there, as soon as crowley kissed him.

as soon as crowley kisses him, aziraphale looked mighty confused - arguably because of the kiss itself (im predominantly in this camp for the moment), but also possibly because he's just been volleyed something in this wild-ass game of tonsil tennis - before he begins to relax into it. potentially, as he relaxed, that could be when the memories first begin to 'play'.

and then we have the video below - sharpened and at 0.2x speed - that captures after the kiss breaks:

there's a moment, after his mouth presumably is handling around said object and sliding it under his tongue, that his expression clears, and - im sorry, but i'll die on this hill - instead takes on a look of betrayal. it's almost a realisation, a near instantaneous revelation. so let's say he does access the memories during the kiss, has been 'watching' them since the kiss first made contact/the object switched over... what would make aziraphale take on that expression, and react in betrayal and with an 'i forgive you'?

well, i have my thoughts, but let's go back again to the kiss itself. y'all remember this, right?

it suddenly feels a liiiiittle more deliberate that a) aziraphale would reach for crowley's wings, and b) the camera would capture this particular angle. maybe it's not, but again - humour me a sec.

so in terms of what the memory is? that crowley would place inside said object, would make aziraphale reach for crowley's wings, and result in aziraphale's initial upset and then expression of betrayal? the damning "i forgive you", and crowley's responding look of dejection and resignation, followed by "don't bother"? the memory that crowley would see fit to impart in the context of aziraphale choosing to return to heaven - the memory that would fit the scenes that have come before the kiss?

im wondering if it was the fall.

aziraphale sees crowley's fall, responds in sympathy and sadness in the back touch, but then perhaps remembers now/knows now the potential part crowley had to play in it.

now, it could be crowley's own account of the fall that he watches, sure. but we haven't seen that as a possible mechanic in the show - being able to access someone else's memories. we've only seen gabriel accessing his own. but that doesn't preclude that it's possible. however, that would suggest that crowley himself now can't remember his fall etc, which would be weird and potentially open too many loopholes.

alternatively, as others have put forward and would be logical, crowley accessed the records whilst in heaven and found that aziraphale's memories were incomplete. that, for me, would be the more plausible, because im not convinced that aziraphale does remember the fall. he makes references to crowley having 'been an angel once', and that he remembers 'the angel you were', and frankly it's all a little loosy-goosey. it would make wider narrative sense, too, that aziraphale can't remember - heaven doesn't want dissent to become an institutional problem, after all; so what do you do? you wipe away the crucial information that would give the angels any ideas in rebelling just like the fallen did.

if crowley did in fact have something to do with the genesis of the rebellion in heaven, instigated it or played an active, crucial part in it... and aziraphale can't remember that... maybe that is where the 'i forgive you' originates. and why crowley would reply with 'dont bother'. he attempts to make aziraphale understand why he can't go back, and why aziraphale shouldn't go back either, but all aziraphale can now concentrate on is the part that crowley had to play in it... the part that, for good reason, crowley has kept from him all this time.

again, idk how i feel about all this, but i do have to eat humble pie on my initial reservations about the narrative value of the theory and admit that it's compelling. especially as it would have aziraphale return to heaven with full understanding as to what heaven did in cause of, leading up to, and in response to, the rebellion - knowledge that presumably the metatron does not know he has... dangerous for the metatron especially, when you consider that he may have had a bigger hand in it than aziraphale previously thought.

[caspergs]

Guys i have a theory

People keep talking about how much they mention memory wiping this series and I definitely think that’s important - i just dont think people are applying it to the right character.

Because Gabriels one downfall that led him to be demoted was that he didn’t want another armageddon. and what was the entire plot of the first series/book? Crowley and Aziraphale Stopping Armageddon.

Obviously heaven doesn’t want that to happen again with the second coming - that would make it seem like theres some sort of institutional problem. So even if they don’t fully wipe his memory, they might remove little bits and pieces.

[commonmexicanname]

Good Omens Thoughts

Your honor, in the matter of maybe Crowley's memory wasn't wiped, I'd like to submit the following into evidence:

"Angels are like bees. […] Once you're inside… Well, I mean…" Proceeds to walk by two higher ranking angels unnoticed.

Look at that smug. The smug of someone who was proven right. Crowley knew they weren't going to notice him because he "doesn't matter". He's just "another low ranking angel". How else would he have known that unless he himself acted the exact same way?

He got his proof that nothing has changed in Heaven in the past 6000+ years. And so, "I haven't always been a demon, and they never change their passwords."

In this head canon of mine, his memory didn't get wiped. He still knows how heaven works. He was just a high ranking angel full of himself who didn't bother knowing or remembering lower ranking angels. (Or just an angel who never took the time to know his fellow angels because he was too busy with his singular brain cell making the one thing he was created to do. Thus, making him seem like he was full of himself.) Just like Gabriel, Michael and Uriel. The only thing that made him different was his passion to create, his curiosity, and his love for the universe. His little engineer heart.

The fall humbled him. Literally brought him down from having his heads in the clouds.

It's why he didn't bother introducing himself to Az the first time they met, but does at the wall. Probably also why he felt safe slithering over to him at the wall. Az is an angel he remembered being kind to him and warning him about Heaven, "peek your head out of your clouds", before the fall.

The madness comes from watching this too many times:

[itsyourstarboy]

Baby 2.0 is in a psych ward, just so y'all know.

Ivan really fucked them up.

[magicalgrimm]

A blast from the past (and by that i mean a traumatic near death experience.)

Bonus:

[canadiancryptid]

One of my favorite things to think about when it comes to modern fantasy type stories is wonder how the supernatural elements may have influenced myths, legends or aspects of history. In a world that seems just like ours, there are so many little butterfly effects that things like magic or mysterious tech could have caused.

Infinity Train has a bunch of these. The Train picking people up would have definitely influenced history, but I like to think about how the existance of the Mirror World would have influenced things like the existance of vampire stories.

As seen with Tulip at the end if Book 1, if a Reflection ever left their post, their Prime would stop showing up in mirrors. If just a few reflections started to go rogue in the right time period, and people notice thier absence, coming to conclusions based on religious stuff and superstition, then all of a sudden you've got people being wrongfully accused of being a vampire. Over time, stories spread, and a case of a handfull of runaway reflections leaves the common story of vampires not appearing in mirrors.

A similar situation could apply to ghost stories. A Reflection runs off after their Prime dies, before the Flecs can take them to have their memories wiped and get assigned to a new Prime. Having grown attached to the family and friends their Prime left behind, they hang around for a while, watching from afar. Someone catches a glimpse of something that looks like someone who died... boom, ghost story.

Reflection Enforcement, of course, would use this sort of thing happening as an excuse to tighten their grip and use more force to keep any rebellious reflections in line. Eventually, nobody in the Mirror World still remembers a time when the Flecs didn't just jump to sanding at the first offense.

How often do mirrors seem to come up with in stories in relation to souls and spirits? How often do mirrors get used as a way to see into or travel to other worlds? How many stories in this alternate world were directly tied to reflections trying to do the same thing Lake did?

Really fun worldbuilding stuff to think about, and that's just a small part of the series. How did the Train itself change history? What events played out differently? Did it change things for the better? Or did it just make them a different kind of bad?