#the same way i am for willogenic spaces

[tempesttz]

how being in the same place as anti endos feels sometimes:

this is kind of hard to read due to the gray (my eyes are little light sensitive babies) and the tiny text so transcription below:

endogenic plural: "hey! i'm plural, like you, but in a different way! i would like to compare our experiences as we share a similar niche phenomenon and may be able to help each other out! isn't that cool?" anti endo: "well you'll never truly be able to understand how we feel as traumagenic systems because we never chose to be a system and you did and the fact that you use terms that we created as if your plurality and my plurality are the same is honestly disgusting even if it works the way that you claim you're encroaching on our communities and the concept that we are anything alike will NEVER be true. you will never understand how i feel you encroach on our communities and when we get upset about it you bite back, why do you NEED to exist in our spaces??? us trauma survivors have literal triggers that can be CAUSED by endos, being a trauma survivor means that we might not want to interact with you or validate you as an endogenic while you claim to have the same or similar experiences, our systems are based on trauma and survivial not whatever else you have, sharing community spaces like that is just so inherently wrong, if you truly are formed not by trauma than your experiences will never be like us, im quoting a real person here lmao" endogenic plural: "jesus dude"

[plurapony]

the way some endogenics treat CDD systems (particularly CDD systems that want their own spaces away from endogenics) is honestly disgusting and i hope one day you realize that the world isn't just about you and your actions affect others.

i had someone in my ask box, who went on and on about how saying CDD systems need their own spaces is medicalizing being a system and all woe is me "i am endogenic and my life is so hard because of it!!" and all i have to say is if you genuinely think about that, you are so incredibly selfish. you are like a child who screams and cries at other children's parties because HE wants presents too. shame on you. you should be an ally to CDD systems - by trying to one up them and invade their spaces you're making the entire community look bad. people don't need to medicalize having a CDD, it already is medicalized - it's a disorder. are you that desperate for attention that you'd repeatedly cross others boundaries and be blatantly disrespectful?

everything that i experience being a CDD system falls down to trauma. i haven't had a day where i don't experience some kind of negative symptoms from this disorder for as long as i can remember. i have nightmares every fucking night because of what i went through. and all of these experiences are directly related to my plurality - for me if you take away the trauma you take away the plurality too, the two can never be undone.

and honestly? it fucking pains me to make posts like this because i don't hate endo's!!! i am not anti endo!!! honestly i don't even mind that much about endogenics using the word "system" i think it makes it confusing for the outer world to make the distinction between disordered and non disordered plurality, but i don't mind!! im not gonna yell at anyone for saying it!! i think there are some genuinely really kind endogenics and willogenics who are using plurality to help their own mental health, their trauma they've experienced in their life, and to better themselves and i think that is ABSOLUTELY wonderful!! you don't need to have a CDD for your plurality to be valid!!! you don't need to have exactly the same experience as us to be accepted into the overall community. there's strength in differences, you don't need to push yourself into places you're not welcome. just be yourself and i promise people will accept you.

[dandelion-decay]

No it’s not harassment or whatever you’re trying to pull. Ok let me put it this way.

We have a group full of people who are schizophrenic, and of course every bit of research shows that schizophrenia cannot be caused by choice. Suddenly people start coming into the space saying they’re “schizophrenic by choice” and playing up symptoms they obviously don’t have. Not only are they taking up space in this group, they’re also spreading misinformation about schizophrenia, and triggering the actually schizophrenic people.

Now, should the schizophrenic people: A, suck it up or B, kick the ableists out.

Ok ok so we all agree B is the correct answer right? So now replace every instance of “schizophrenia” with “plurality” and every instance of “schizophrenic” with “plural” and you’ll understand why we don’t welcome your type into our community

You're talking about people like me like I’m an abstract concept, but I’m right here. I exist! And you don’t know me. You don’t know our system. You don’t get to pretend you’re acting on everyone’s behalf.

You’re also saying that people like me shouldn’t be “welcomed” and that we should be kicked out of our own community? That people like me shouldn’t even exist here? How is that not harassment?

Also, you’re making a lot of assumptions about how other systems feel. You're assuming that all traumagenic systems have the same opinions as you. You’re assuming they'd all agree with excluding and dehumanizing others. But plenty of traumagenic systems have said the opposite — they do support endogenic and willogenic folks. They don’t feel harmed by our existence.

Plurality is not schizophrenia. They’re not the same thing or even comparable. Plurality is not a disorder or diagnosis. The metaphor falls apart the moment you have to warp the reality of one marginalized group to attack another.

So no. I won’t “suck it up.” I’ll keep showing up, and I’ll keep reminding you: your discomfort with who I am doesn’t make me less real.

— Solstice (xe/xem)

[antisyscourse]

I’m a system host and I have no idea if the way it started would count as traumagenic or endogenic, traumaendo maybe? So I wanna hear what others would call it

So I believe it started when I was around eleven, I was going through a lot at the time and one of my biggest coping mechanisms was to personify my thoughts, I made up characters that represented the different parts of me because I found my problems easier to deal with if I could pretend there was a tangible entity causing them that could be argued with or even apologize (this was connected to a fandom I was and still am in but that’s not really important to what I’m talking about)

So I would assign thoughts I was having and things happening in my brain to the different characters and have full conversations with them both related to and outside of that. You can see where this is going :✨fictives✨

I now have and know about alters that aren’t these guys but for a while I thought these were the only ones and before I learned I was a system I thought they were imaginary friends.

So if this is where it started, which seems likely though I don’t remember enough about what my mind was like when I was a kid to say for sure, I’m not sure if it would count as traumagenic or endogenic. I didn’t really know what I was doing when I created these guys but technically they were endo/willogenic cause I was consciously causing their creation but at the same time I don’t think it would’ve happened if it weren’t for the trauma I was experienced, like I wouldn’t have latched on to that concept so hard and felt the need to do that if it weren’t for my trauma.

hmm!! well i really don't know, because i'm not a professional and not educated enough to take a guess!!

[ID: STOP! this is a syscourse free blog! it is a safe space for all systems, so please go away if you intend upon stirring up drama!]

[circulars-reasoning]

In anon because I don't want my blog to be associated with syscourse at all.

I'm not even a tulpa or tulpamancer but I just have to say - isn't just renaming the term just like painting over it or being a mask on it?

It's going to be the exact same thing. People are still going to know what they are doing is tulpamancy and still going to be referring to old guides. Also I'm no expert but isn't there also like... Subsections of Tulpamancey? Like deamons and servitors? Are those words not also from the same origins?

(Preface; I am white as hell. If I say something wrong, please let me know).

As far as I’ve been able to parse, as someone who is attempting to get more involved in the various endogenjc communities, Daemons and Servitors are different altogether.

From everything I’ve seen, Tulpamancy is no different from created parts / thoughtforms / willogenics / parogenics / etc.. There are no actual practices taken from Tibetan Buddhism that make Tulpamancy different from other practices, according to tulpamancers I’ve spoken to — in fact, this was an arguing point from many vocal pro-tulpas for a long time. “The word is fine because the practice isn’t at all the same as Tibetan Buddhism.”

Since it’s the word that reflects the racist views of a white bitch who wanted to profit off of Buddhism — not the practice — then changing the term away from that would help cut down on racism within the thoughtform community.

However…

You’re right in that this isn’t “solving racism” or doing anything but changing a single word. There will be racist people in the thoughtform community, or the willogenic community, or— you get the picture. Just like there are plenty of racist anti-endos and CDD systems. It’s disgusting, and horrific, but it exists and needs to be addressed.

The issue is, we can’t stop racism by screaming “don’t be racist” at the top of our lungs. I’m of the belief we can’t stop it at all. But we can do our parts to uplift actual POC voices, and do our best to change what we can control — such as not using racist terms like “tulpa” and encouraging others to change as well. It’s about harm reduction in any way we can manage; those little steps are vital, not only to improve the culture of system (and potentially more) spaces, but to ensure that POC systems feel more welcomed in these communities (where racism is a major problem that goes frequently unaddressed).

[hahahahah-no]

Thank you for your response! :D

So, right off the bat, I'll say that we're one of those systems that just... Happened, one day. To be honest, the exact mechanics of how that worked is still quite unclear to us, but I feel it's only fair to share it! So, for 19 years it was just one of us, the OG if you will. So I figured she'd explain it from her point of view.

-- (warning: this got quite longer than I intended it to)

1. So, there are a few things that make me believe that we don't have a dissociative disorder. For one, I never experienced any identity confusion in the slightest before I became a system. Like, zilch. There weren't any times when my interests/behavior suddenly changed, and I didn't experience any dissociative episodes either to my knowledge. We also don't experience any amnesia between each other, so that's that too.

Does it mean that I *definitely don't* have a dissociative disorder? No, but so far, I haven't seen any reason to believe that I do. I am open to the possibility though, just in case.

2. I mean, it's hard to say. There are some obvious differences between traumagenic and non-traumagenic systems, like amnesia barriers, communication difficulties, dissociation episodes, uncontrollable switches, and many other things that aren't as common in endogenic spaces.

However, at the same time, I've seen many different folks relate to the experiences of systems from many different origins. Some DID/OSDD systems found really helpful advice in the willogenic community (specifically the Tulpa community, though we personally don't

use the tulpa language), for example, which would be really odd if the experiences

were fundamentally, completely different in every way. Some even realized that they were systems in the first place because of those communities!

I've also seen people describe experiences that I immediately related to despite not sharing the same system origin. If I were to see the same things being talked about when I was still a singlet, however, I don’t think I’d be able to “get it” in the same way. There’s also the possibility that it’s describing something completely different and I’m simply mistaken, though.

3. We're a created system, so yes, I do consider us fully plural. Now, how does the whole thing work brain-wise? At this moment, I have no idea. We really just hope that more research will be done.

4. Well, for one, we don’t experience dissociative amnesia, in the sense that we don’t lose time. I think we may be experiencing some barriers when it comes to emotion, though. For example, when one fronting headmate was in a very bad mood and another switched in, the mood completely disappeared, which surprised us a little. There’s also the body crying or smiling because one headmate near the front was either sad or amused, while the fronting person wasn’t experiencing the same emotions.

Our switches are generally controllable with both parties agreeing to switch with each other, though there was at least one instance when one of us tried to switch and fight for front (nothing serious at all, but worth noting since it was the first time that this had happened). We experience blurriness/identity confusion at times now too, when you’re supposed to be switched in but just don’t fully feel like yourself? Like, your vibe feels off, for lack of a better description. Your voice feels too high or too low and you act in a different way and you just feel like something’s off. There are also times when we wake up as somebody else and we’re like “??? Why am I here, what”.

We can have somebody move the body while another one is fronting, which is sometimes called “possession” in some endo spaces. Basically, you’re A, for example, but headmate B is moving your body and you’re just kind of looking. You can take control back if need to, but still. It sometimes is a little trippy, so we only do it if both parties are comfortable with it.

We didn’t know the term for it before, but our switches feel similar to how some people describe non-possessive switches  - basically, it feels like an identity change. Your mannerisms may change, how high your voice is may change, how you think and feel about the world may change, your music taste may change, but it feels like there’s this one consciousness that changes identity. For this reason, we cannot just experience the headspace while somebody else is fronting like we assumed we’d be able to - there’s only one “experiencer” at a time. It’s just a matter of who “the experiencer” is.

We usually can talk to each other - it feels like an inner monologue, except it doesn’t come from you but somebody else. There were times when we just couldn’t reach somebody and were freaked out by it, though. We also don’t hear the talking 24/7 - you usually need to prompt somebody to “wake up” a little for them to respond if they haven’t been active for a bit. With DID/OSDD systems, sudden thought intrusions from another headmate seem to be more common? However, don’t quote us on that.

This already got pretty long, so sorry for that ^^’

Thank you for reading all of that, and for answering our questions! Feel free to ask us something else if you want to or if you’d like us to clarify some things.

hey y'all! this is my dedicated syscourse blog, because I felt like syscourse was taking up too much space on my main.

i am the host of a traumagenic system of 6. our collective name is the Storm System, but the one running this blog is Ray. our alters range in terms of opinions, but we all lean towards anti endo (some, like me, more so than others).

I'm the most opinionated on syscourse and the most common fronter, so I'll probably be the main one posting. I wouldn't be surprised if Grey hopped in sometimes, though, too.

endos and antis alike are welcome to share opinions or debate me. I can't promise I'll agree/not argue, but the reason I bother with syscourse is to learn about other experiences and perspectives, so I will listen and try to understand if nothing else.

I have a tendency to be very strongly opinionated (sometimes to a fault), so if I seriously cross a boundary or am being unnecessarily rude, please do let me know. that being said, though, there is a difference between being actively cruel and expressing a controversial opinion, so while I will do my best to be respectful, I won't soften my opinions for that sake.

tl;dr: discussion/debate welcome, just don't be a total dick and I'll try my best to do the same :P

[thecataclysmic6]

do you believe created systems can exist but don't support them, or do you think it's impossible?

Hm. That's a complicated answer for us. I don't think it's really possible to consciously create a system. At least not a system by the same definition as an individual with DID/OSDD.

I do think it's possible to create states of mind to help cope with life situations as this is common with individuals of personality disorders and other PTSD disorders. These states of mind themselves ARE valid, but these states of mind are not the same as alters despite being similar.

The reason I don't want willogenic systems interacting is because in personal experience they have made us feel uncomfortable about our trauma and our own disorder.

I think at the very least the wordage shouldn't be shared. (I am open to be educated more on this type of experience and/or find ways to coexist in seperate spaces.)