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Batfam members who have killed and don't regret it: Helena, Jason, Kate

Batfam members who have killed and it scarred their psyche horribly: Cass, Damian

Batfam members who thought they killed or temporarily killed someone and had a mental breakdown because of it: Dick, Tim

Batfam members who almost killed but pulled themselves back from the edge by choice: Babs, Steph

Batfam members who would have killed if someone hadn't physically stopped them: Bruce, JPV

Batfam members who never tried to kill someone: Duke

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Kinda tired of people trying to say that Tim was dragging Bruce around and parenting him. Bruce might have been depressed as fuck, but Tim saved him by being there. Bruce was able to survive, not because of Tim dragging him around, but that he could care for Tim.

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it will never not be funny to me that if i read a fanfic centred around jason and dicks relationship it will 90% of the time be dick desperately trying to bond with jason to make up for lost time bcs they weren’t very close before jason’s death, and then if i crack open a comic with the two of them it will more likely be jason showing up on dicks doorstep grinning wildly and dick saying god fuck why couldn’t the joker have done a better job WHY ARE YOU BOTHERING ME

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is it just me or is the fact that dick grayson is the type to think hardy boys novels aren't serious enough detective books an actual thing that happened in comics. or did i hallucinate that part up

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Dynamic duo. Just like the old days.

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Bruce is like God is because he loves everyone so it is hard for you to feel like he loves you specially. When your father will die for anyone what does it mean when you know he will die for you?

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#fun fact this is v similar to what ra's says to bruce about dick shortly before the whole adoption subplot in gotham knights#“dick grayson would die for a stranger you aren't special” more or less#and ra's was so successful he made bruce so insecure that he was like i need to have some kind of legal bond with dick immediately#and y'know ofc that later backfired but anyway point is#they are each other's gods actually#but wrt other's tags yeah this is absolutely part of why jason was hoping bruce would kill for him#he would even settle for just being a secondary party to murder#look he's making this so easy he's even giving him an excuse to let it happen

Bruce is like God is because he loves everyone so it is hard for you to feel like he loves you specially. When your father will die for anyone what does it mean when you know he will die for you?

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Duke and Bruce: A Question of Definition

When re-reading Cursed Wheel, I was struck by this exchange. Suspicions around Bruce's motive for taking in Duke is a running thread in their relationship, but what fascinates me about this moment is that Duke is using this suspicion against Bruce. He knows Bruce will be hurt by this accusation. More than hurt - Bruce's "maybe" suggests uncertainty, a lack of faith in himself. In this exchange, Duke and Bruce are both uncertain of what they mean to each other, and both troubled by that uncertainty.

This uncertainty runs throughout their time together. I'm going to try to track Bruce & Duke's dynamic through the years; basically, this post collects my disparate Bruce-Duke thoughts from my full Duke read. So warning that this is a LONG post.

I will probably contradict takes I've had in the past but you live and you learn 😭. Also the Bruce-Duke dynamic shifts a lot so this is not definitive or 100% correct - lots of these moments can be interpreted differently! But with all that said, let's jump into Zero Year!

The Beginning

Duke and Bruce first meet during the disaster called Zero Year, where Riddler blacks out and floods Gotham:

Batman (2011) #21

At its core, Zero Year and Endgame are about Bruce's relationship to Gotham. Duke says "He thinks you're dead[...] ever since he killed the city." Batman's death becomes intertwined with the city's death; in the reverse way, Duke in Bruce's mind will become intertwined with Gotham. This exchange sets up their relationship as reciprocal: Bruce gives Duke his fish, and Duke gives Bruce information. From the beginning, they have equal need for each other.

Batman (2011) #30

After Duke's parents rescue Bruce, Bruce tries to persuade Duke to leave Gotham. Duke replies: "No. We're here." Duke's decision to stay in Gotham directly influences Bruce to stay as well - here, we begin to see Bruce linking Duke to the city. This issue establishes that their relationship in some ways revolves around the city itself.

Batman (2011) #38

Then, Joker arranges for Duke and his parents to star in a re-enactment of the Wayne murders. Bruce manages to rescue Duke only, and then Bruce asks Duke to help him find a first aid kit for Jim. This scene parallels their first meeting in #21 (see the fish panel above!), with one handing something to the other. Their positions are flipped: this time it's Duke handing something to Bruce. The flipping nods to the 'reciprocity' aspect, and also to the way they parallel and will continue to parallel each other (particularly in Snyder's writing).

But this is also the first moment of genuine connection between the two of them! Bruce asks Duke to be a "friend," and they fist bump. Nowhere near familial, but a bit more intimate - this intimacy is more on Bruce's side than Duke's though. Duke still sees Bruce as primarily Batman, but Batman begins to think about Duke as an individual. This one-sided growing intimacy is a core tenet of their dynamic.

Symbols and People

Let's address this 'one-sided intimacy'. To Duke, Bruce is Batman first and foremost, and he criticises Bruce whenever he's not:

Batman (2011) #47

To Duke, Bruce is just anybody, but Batman? That symbol "inspire[s]" people, and "no one could be [Batman] but you!" His faith in Bruce is entirely tied to the Bat symbol. Concurrently with his growing understanding of the Robin symbol in We Are Robin, a large part of Duke's early story is about symbols as markers of community and hope. He prioritises Batman's relationship to the city over any relationship he personally could have with Bruce.

Bruce's view of their relationship has shades of this too. He tends to describe Duke in terms of his effect on the city:

From Batman & The Signal #3 and Batman: The Secret Files: The Signal respectively, both of these are about Duke's potential to benefit Gotham. The latter in particular shows Bruce idealising Duke as the 'perfect' Gothamite, a "represent[ation]" of the city's best.

This kind of idolisation skates close to early Bruce-Cass, particularly the idea of Duke being the 'best' (analogous to Bruce calling Cass 'perfect'). But Bruce does not go as far as he did with Cass. Other Duke fans have said this, but in a lot of ways Bruce is actively trying not to fall into previous parenting/mentoring failures. So he tamps down this symbolisation with lines about Duke as a specific person:

Batman & The Signal #1

"Something independent of the past, and... of me." The wording here is so careful, so constructed to highlight Duke's agency and to separate Duke from Bruce's previous relationships. Bruce also separates Duke from himself, avoiding the projection that was characteristic of, yet again, early Bruce-Cass. I'm Cass-brained so I'm mostly using Cass but these pitfalls occur for his other kids as well. Bruce does see Duke as a symbol of Gotham/hope, but he also knows the importance of seeing Duke as an individual with agency.

Bruce's struggles drive him to differentiate Duke from the other Robins, to cover him in bats but allow him to work during the day, to constantly show how important Duke is to him personally but only verbally acknowledge Duke's importance to Gotham. He ends up simultaneously pulling Duke into the family (offering him the manor, giving him a Batsuit, working alongside him in All-Star) and accepting Duke's distance (allowing him to work in the daytime, giving him his own cave, putting him on the Outsiders).

And Duke, being the detective he is, notices.

Insecurity

A ton of Duke stories feature people telling Duke he doesn't fit/shouldn't be here:

Dark Nights: Death Metal Robin King // Cursed Wheel Part 2 // Cursed Wheel Part 6 // Detective Comics (2016) 983

Duke brushes some of these instances, but he does internalise some of it. See Batman and the Signal #1 and Cursed Wheel Part 6:

Duke's insecurities are not about Bruce alone. They're about being unable to find community, represented by the Batfam in both cases. But Bruce is a huge factor in the insecurity, and the Cursed Wheel panel in particular is so evocative for me. The way Duke frames it - "They found a way inside with you" - suggests that Duke is expecting Bruce to help him. He doesn't want Bruce's approval, but he does need Bruce to help him through this, in the reciprocal way they've always helped each other.

But I think Bruce's struggle to define what Duke means to him, as I outlined above, is part of why Duke feels Bruce isn't helping him. Duke begins to question Bruce's motives in taking him in:

Batman and the Signal #2 // Dark Days: The Casting

Bruce shuts it down every time (including in Cursed Wheel Part 6), but it doesn't really make Duke feel better. "I chose you because of who you are / I only wanted to be there when you decided what you were going to become." Bruce consistently highlights Duke's agency/individuality as the reason he took him in, but it just doesn't jibe with what actually happens - not Bruce giving him two suits, putting the bat on him, etc. And Duke sees that inconsistency, so anytime Bruce pulls out an 'it's just because you're cool Duke,' it doesn't ring true. They both know that's not Bruce's entire motive.

That brings me to the panel I opened this post with. Duke questions whether Bruce took him in for self-serving reasons, and Bruce pauses before saying "maybe." Duke hits on the reason for Bruce's inconsistent behaviour - Bruce himself is uncertain about his motives for taking Duke in, and afraid they are selfish. This uncertainty in turn sows insecurity in Duke, because he values and desires transparency. As long as Bruce is unsure about why he took Duke in, Duke cannot be fully comfortable in his position in the Batfam.

Parenthood

But what's the root of Bruce's uncertainty? Right before the Cursed Wheel argument, Bruce suggests moving Elaine and Doug away. What Duke says - 'maybe you took me in out of guilt' - is a paraphrase of what a Jokerised Elaine told him earlier. This argument, and Bruce's uncertainty, revolves around Duke's parents.

Bruce is kind of the reason anything happens to Duke's parents anyway (since Joker mimics the Wayne murders), but Bruce also promises Duke everything will be alright:

Batman (2011) #38

Duke doesn't blame Bruce for what happened to his parents or his inaction on finding them - he calls Bruce's amnesia 'selfish', but it's more a general critique than a personal one. But I think Bruce does blame himself for failing to keep his promise. I'm extrapolating a lot because we don't really see any of Bruce's feelings, but thinking of his reaction to Duke's mom's absence in Batman: Urban Legends #18:

Jefferson says Duke is going to make a mistake that he'll "never forgive himself" for, but they "owe [Duke] more than that". This is pure extrapolation but I like to read this as touching on Bruce's guilt for never having found Duke's parents earlier, something he'll never forgive himself for. He owes Duke, which is why he becomes hell bent on finding Elaine when she goes missing again. But if he's guilty at this point, then the guilt could have run through their entire relationship.

Which makes things so complicated!! Bruce feels guilty about not saving Duke's parents; Bruce loves how much Duke loves his parents; Bruce thinks it's not good for Duke to spend so much time thinking about his parents; Bruce also, maybe, a little bit, wants to be Duke's parent. Thinking of this tidbit from Detective Comics #984:

Bruce warns Jefferson about how he should treat Duke, and the very first thing he says is that Duke "won't want another father figure". This shows that a) Duke and fatherhood is a touchy subject and b) it's a subject at the forefront of Bruce's mind. This wording also leaves it ambiguous whether Bruce considers himself a 'father figure'. The next line is nonsense about Duke respecting Bruce too much to 'challenge' him, which is plain wrong, but it does show that Bruce is not very clear what his relationship to Duke is. He's not exactly a 'father figure,' but neither is he a stranger like Jefferson. This in-betweenness is repeated by Duke in Batman & The Outsiders (2019) #1, when he says "You're not my father. And you're not Batman." Batman occupies this nebulous role in Duke's life, orbiting fatherhood but never quite touching it.

Though I think this discomfort around fatherhood is more on Bruce's side, nebulous fatherhood is also a motif for Duke. In Batman & The Signal, Gnomon's presence disrupts a lot of Duke's beliefs about 'family'. We don't have too much on Duke's feelings about Gnomon (recurring thing... sigh) but we do have morsels:

Batman: Urban Legends #18 // Batman: The Secret Files: The Signal

Gnomon makes Duke question Doug's 'father' status; simultaneously, Duke struggles with this idea of 'trading' his WAR family for the Batfamily; then, in Urban Legends, Duke imagines his mom accusing him of loving his dad more than her. All of this shows Duke is deeply troubled by familial replacement - he's terrified of losing his family, particularly Doug and Elaine, because he's found other people he considers family. Bruce figures as both a symbol of the Batfamily and as a possible-father, undergirding a lot of Duke's fears here. So while Bruce more overtly grapples with the way their relationship is defined, Duke also struggles with it.

It's why Duke imagines Bruce under 'family' in Batman & The Signal #3, and then immediately amends it to 'mentor' and 'friend'. In a way, Duke's namelessness in All-Star Batman is a symbolic encapsulation of how neither of them name what they mean to each other.

Our Best Selves

BUT while their relationship is complex and filled with uncertainty, it can also be a really beautiful, really healing thing for both of them.

All-Star Batman #3

Bruce has a long history of shutting people out and being dishonest, which has landed him in hot water with his allies many times. But Duke, who represents honesty and truth, allows him in turn to be honest. Duke knows Bruce needs someone to hear him talk about Harvey, and Bruce knows that Duke needs the truth. And they offer each other what they need, as they have from the very beginning.

Bruce does this for Duke, too, in Batman: Urban Legends #18:

Duke has been working himself to the bone trying to find his mom, to the Outsiders' worry. But it's Bruce's appearance that allows Duke to finally talk about what he's been working on. This panel just really gets me because Duke is talking to all of them but looking straight at Bruce - at a man so entangled with Gotham, with what happened to Doug and Elaine. He wants Bruce to understand. Bruce does.

They are both people who have such a deep love for Gotham, for their parents, who believe in rehabilitation and the goodness of people. And they'll always save each other.

All-Star Batman #5

All-Star Batman #5 // Batman (2011) #50

So actually this section is about the random Duke appearance in Detective Comics #982. Deacon Blackfire tells Bruce that Gotham is cursed, and the issue takes Bruce through ruminations about underserved Gotham neighbourhoods, the role of community, and ends with him watching the sun come up with a little boy. IT'S SO DUKE, like everything Duke stands for, but it's also what Bruce stands for too!! And what's interesting is that when Bruce is told he's alone, he imagines Dick, Babs, Damian, and Duke. Duke says, "we're out best selves because of you."

The Duke-Bruce relationship is a reciprocal one, so Bruce may bring out the best in Duke but Duke also brings out the best in Bruce. And they both believe in the best of people, the best of the city. They are both in love with Gotham, with their families, and they both deeply believe in rehabilitation and promises. They are their best selves because of each other.

Conclusion

In Cursed Wheel Part 4, Duke decides to keep his parents on the premises. He tells Bruce that no matter what his parents say, the truth is that they love him, and he can take it. And Bruce smiles.

Because even though Bruce was the one who suggested moving his parents away - even though he may want Duke to be in his family - he loves Duke because he would never let his parents be moved. Through all of the symbols they make out of each other, all of the slippery definitions of fatherhood, friendship, and mentorship, they are two people who fundamentally get each other. Duke gets where Bruce is coming from with Harvey, and Bruce gets what Duke needs (with the daytime, with the Outsiders, with finding his mom).

The best Bruce-Duke moments are layered with an intimacy that isn't necessarily familial, but is also not strictly teacher-student. They've grown close, but they are also still independent of each other - and though I don't think either of them will ever fully say what they are, that's not so important. They may never be fully free of the uncertainty that underlies their relationship, but they love each other, and the indefinability of their love doesn't make it any less strong.

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This is my formal protest against "Tim needs to grow up and move on from Robin!"

Disrespectfully, Robin isn't the training phase. Robin isn't only for children. Robin is a respected vigilante who is expected to continue being a vigilante.

Specifically with Tim, he already grew up. He did that. And he found that he wanted to continue being Robin because that was the most helpful to the people of Gotham and it made him feel fulfilled.

Robin was never supposed to be a child forever. Robin is a mantle that can be carried by one person for their entire lifetime. Dick Grayson didn't make Robin as something he wanted to move on from.

Tim even said that he'd stop being Robin when someone better came along. Not someone else willing. Someone better. Someone who would perform the role of Robin better than he could.

And that 'someone' hasn't appeared yet.

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If I had a nickel for every time Dick lands in a group of supervillains that wants him dead and ends up leading the group one issue later, I would have two nickels, which isn’t that many but its weird that it happened twice.

For context:

Dick: lands in the middle of supervillains who want him dead

Dick: No… Chimp.. Cheetah: Thanks for the save, boy wonder. Now who’s going to save you?

Dick one issue later leading the group:

Dick: If we leave the omega knight, Perpetua will know you survived the throne and come for you. If you want to keep your freedom and your lives, we stop the Omega Knight now. Follow my lead. Martian Manhunter, connect us and the legion of doom!

Dick: lands in the middle of supervillains who want him dead:

Villains: “is that really him?” “its gotta be” “What’d he do to get thrown in here? “Who the hell cares?” “Lets kill him” “yeah”

Dick one issue later leading the group: 

Dick, narrating: This gets their mind off me, anyway Dick, out loud: Just your fingers guys. No metal tools. One spark and we blow ourselves up instead of out of here.

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What Bruce needs more than anything is a reason to live, and his kids give him that by just existing. No, listen to me. The mission matters in that it gives Bruce something to die for. Bruce came back to Gotham to be Batman until he died, and until he died bloody and young. Dick Grayson changed the way he approached the mission because he couldn't die as long as he had to take care of Dick. And Jason took Dick's role when Dick left. And when Jason died, Bruce went back to Plan A. Die bloody and die fast. Tim didn't save him like he was pulling him back from the brink every night for years and years ad infinitum. Tim saved him by being. Tim saved him in an instant. That's who Robin is.

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I don’t think I’d ever apply ‘is love what doomed us?’ to batman, because I don’t like where that takes the story, instead I’d apply ‘is love what hurts us?’ because of how it centres around redemption and forgiveness and how hard it is to care, deeply and genuinely

Leaving it as a question to let the audience decide whether that love is worth it, is it worth it every time Bruce takes in a child knowing they will inevitably hurt him (and him them) is it worth it to extend his hand to a villain knowing it will inevitably be bitten, is it worth it to care enough to give advice he knows will be ignored, make plans that he knows will be ridiculed, is love enough even when it hurts, even when it leaves you exactly as you are, even when it cannot save you

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Alfred keeps guns in the walls, right? But since when? I can imagine someone thinking they could make lots of money quickly if they broke into Wayne Manor when everyone knows only the kid and the butler live there since other staff got fired/quit after the murders. So a lot of kidnapping or stealing could be happening in little Bruce's life.

Do you think Alfred has been lowkey keeping a few guns on his person and in the walls since Bruce was a little kid?

Did Bruce accidentally find one/ see Alfred pull one out to threaten the would-be thief/ witness Alfred actually shoot the person?

If Bruce did find one, what would he do with it if Alfred didn't notice? Try to teach himself how one works, basically disassemble it and put it back together? Throw it away? Put it back where it was and stare every time he walks past the hideout? Confront Alfred?

considering Alfred's occasional soldier/MI6 background i think he kept guns in the house largely from the time he got there. i also imagine there would have been hunting guns from either Thomas or extended family in a gun locker somewhere. i do think Alfred always had a concealed carry on him after the Wayne murders for his own piece of mind and he and Bruce got into a fight about it once Bruce got back from training and actually started to notice it.

i choose to believe Alfred is too good a spy/soldier to let Bruce find out about any potential robbers and that an attempted robbery only happened two or three times (the wayne manor is too isolated and has too many camera's for most thieves)

Bruce, in an attempt to control his fear, did ask Alfred to teach him about guns. but it was all under safe controlled circumstances. Bruce didn't want to learn to shoot one he just wanted to learn how they worked. and i think if grown Bruce has trouble finding where Alfred hides his gun child Bruce wouldn't have stood a chance randomly happening on one

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Which batkid does Bruce see himself in to a concerning degree?

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They make me wanna scream