castlebyersthoughts

[castlebyersthoughts]

Remember when two endgame Stranger Things couples had a heart-to-heart in the back of a moving vehicle in episode "Papa"?

[castlebyersthoughts]

we're past the appropriate rejection window honestly. remember how steve is rejected by robin in the same season he develops feelings for her? or how dustin is symbolically rejected by max in the season he develops feelings for her? that's because it would have been a super weird choice to build it up for a really long time and then end it with a rejection.

there's a reason why in season three when joyce rejects hopper, we all immediately know it isn't a real rejection, even though they're fighting, she's grieving and planning to leave, and he's being unreasonable and unfair. there's reason after reason to think it's not going to happen, but because he's had feelings for her since season one we know it's going somewhere.

who waits on the edge of their seat to watch someone get turned down? who stays subscribed to netflix for that? that kind of thing would not be interesting, it would just be a confusing way to spend the increasingly limited time right before your show ends. penultimate season. every scene has to mean something bigger, all the way down to lucas talking about new coke or mike trying a new kind of pizza.

in writing you primarily only want to wait and build up to things if the result is going to be worth waiting for. rejection of the perpetually tortured gay kid is predictable and doesn't function to do much at all story wise. easy to write around, too, but they did the opposite. they built will's character around this.

they also have no need to dip back into the rejection pool narratively, doesn't add to the story. especially this late into the game. (sidenote, weird how people were not nearly as sure robin was going to be rejected despite her love interest being mirrored to mike, significantly less developed, and introduced so late, but i digress)

if they wanted mike to reject will, it should have been during the van scene. he should have given mike the painting and said something along the lines of, "i know you don't feel the same, but i really want you to know how el sees you, how we all see you. you're the heart. we'd fall apart without you." it would have still been sad but it would have been an ending.

because plotlines need to end! they need to end when it makes sense for them to, not before or after. dragging it along means they either realize they have something worth dragging, or have deliberately decided to prolong a plot point past its logical conclusion for the sole purpose of milking every last second of misery they can out of will, which would be needlessly cruel and so, so gratuitous.

it's not like the van scene NEEDED to happen exactly how it happened. any scene that is solely character driven with no impact on the plot can be rewritten over and over and changed into whatever it has to be. it was written as the most romantic mike moment in any season, and it was filmed and lit and directed extremely specifically. zero accidents.

robin and vickie was unnecessary without a plan. mike and will was unnecessary unless they have a plan.

so they must have a plan. if mike was going to reject will, it had to be in season four. but mike didn't reject will. not at all. he was actually very, very moved by what will had to say, he just didn't entirely realize what it was he was saying.

in fact, they made sure that this plotline was not just unsolved, but that it was obligated to come back, by having it go against the character's most consistent moral line of friends don't lie. and gave it to the character who, in his introductory scene, refuses to lie. dishonesty has genuine ramifications in this show, and will's is attached to a physical (treasured) object that has to come back into play. they can't sweep it under the rug and mike can't reject will without it coming off as... just... far too late.

[castlebyersthoughts]

I keep seeing people on reddit say that "El is the main hero" and Will isn't going to be the hero in S5 and will only have one quiet moment where he overcomes Vecna, and I'm like... these people truly don't understand the essence of the show. Stranger Things is a story where ordinary meets the extraordinary, where the nerds and freaks become the unexpected heroes of their own stories. This is clear to anyone who has read the Montauk show bible. El isn't the "main hero", she's the superhero (or "the outsider" in the bible). The main heroes are the party, most importantly Mike (in S1) and Will (in S5, hopefully). Will is absolutely going to have a big hero moment in S5. In my opinion he will even be the unexpected hero of Stranger Things.

To quote Shawn Levy, "People talk about mythology and The Upside Down, and all that is huge, but the magic of S5 are the characters who find sense of belonging with other and through that connection, become heroes".

[castlebyersthoughts]

No way 😂😂 Imagine Will having time to go flirt with random boys in the middle of being tormented by Vecna (probably about his feelings for Mike). Also, they still haven’t realized that there’s no character to play Will’s love interest, right? Unless it’s a glorified extra, which would only happen in the epilogue.

"I want Mike to be Will's wingman in Season 5" – actual comment from ST Reddit

How's that supposed to work when he's dating Will?

[castlebyersthoughts]

Thank you! Oh yeah I remember now. To be fair he was mostly talking about previous seasons here, but he did imply a more personal season for Mike in 5, that’s exciting! I still don’t trust the show to tackle his depression lol, I think he’ll already have a lot on his plate with the whole Byler thing, but I’d love to be wrong!

My unpopular Mike opinion

I don't think Mike has internalized homophobia, and I don't think he's aware of his feelings for Will. I enjoy this idea in fanon but it doesn't seem to be what the show is going for, in my opinion. Like Finn and the Duffers have said, I see Mike as being completely oblivious, to all of it. He most likely suffers from compulsory heterosexuality and that's why he's always tried so hard to make it work with El, because he thinks that's just how it's supposed to be, this must be what he's feeling, right? (I'm also not ruling out the possibility that he did/does have romantic feelings for El, which would make it even more powerful when he chooses Will in the end). But he's never thought of Will in a romantic light before, he doesn't even know that's an option!

The other thing is that when it finally clicks for him, I don't want it to be this heavy, angsty thing. I want to see relief, joy. I want him to feel so relieved because he finally understands why things were always so difficult with El and why he was never able to balance El and Will in his life. Finally, everything makes sense. And I want him to feel so happy because he realizes he's in in love with his best friend and his best friend loves him back, and it's the best feeling in the world. No more queer pain (we've had enough of that with Will), give me queer joy! This would, in my opinion, be the most impactful story.

[castlebyersthoughts]

Do you know where Finn said S5 would tackle Mike's depression? I've been following everything pretty closely and I don't think I remember that. I remember he said that we would see leader Mike in S5. And yeah, Will was only reminding him of who he was, but we saw that he was very insecure in S4 and I believe that thanks to Will's speech he will be confident in who he is in S5. I think that self-worth arc kind of got resolved already and Mike realized and embraced that he was the heart and the leader of the party after the van scene.

My unpopular Mike opinion

I don't think Mike has internalized homophobia, and I don't think he's aware of his feelings for Will. I enjoy this idea in fanon but it doesn't seem to be what the show is going for, in my opinion. Like Finn and the Duffers have said, I see Mike as being completely oblivious, to all of it. He most likely suffers from compulsory heterosexuality and that's why he's always tried so hard to make it work with El, because he thinks that's just how it's supposed to be, this must be what he's feeling, right? (I'm also not ruling out the possibility that he did/does have romantic feelings for El, which would make it even more powerful when he chooses Will in the end). But he's never thought of Will in a romantic light before, he doesn't even know that's an option!

The other thing is that when it finally clicks for him, I don't want it to be this heavy, angsty thing. I want to see relief, joy. I want him to feel so relieved because he finally understands why things were always so difficult with El and why he was never able to balance El and Will in his life. Finally, everything makes sense. And I want him to feel so happy because he realizes he's in in love with his best friend and his best friend loves him back, and it's the best feeling in the world. No more queer pain (we've had enough of that with Will), give me queer joy! This would, in my opinion, be the most impactful story.

[castlebyersthoughts]

Absolutely. Not only would it be easier, but it would make more sense from a writing perspective. The GA would feel "cheated" if they learned that Mike has consciously been feeling this way for years and this was hidden to them. And I would understand, because I think we deserve to see the moment when Mike realizes his feelings, when it all clicks for him. That way the audience can truly understand where he comes from and like you said, end up rooting for him and celebrating with him.

My unpopular Mike opinion

I don't think Mike has internalized homophobia, and I don't think he's aware of his feelings for Will. I enjoy this idea in fanon but it doesn't seem to be what the show is going for, in my opinion. Like Finn and the Duffers have said, I see Mike as being completely oblivious, to all of it. He most likely suffers from compulsory heterosexuality and that's why he's always tried so hard to make it work with El, because he thinks that's just how it's supposed to be, this must be what he's feeling, right? (I'm also not ruling out the possibility that he did/does have romantic feelings for El, which would make it even more powerful when he chooses Will in the end). But he's never thought of Will in a romantic light before, he doesn't even know that's an option!

The other thing is that when it finally clicks for him, I don't want it to be this heavy, angsty thing. I want to see relief, joy. I want him to feel so relieved because he finally understands why things were always so difficult with El and why he was never able to balance El and Will in his life. Finally, everything makes sense. And I want him to feel so happy because he realizes he's in in love with his best friend and his best friend loves him back, and it's the best feeling in the world. No more queer pain (we've had enough of that with Will), give me queer joy! This would, in my opinion, be the most impactful story.

[castlebyersthoughts]

I would love for this to happen but honestly I don't think S5 is going to focus on Mike's mental health either. He's probably gonna be back to being leader Mike and less in his own head, thanks to Will's van speech. It wouldn't surprise me if they make it seem like Will's speech "fixed" him in a way, and now the big issue for him will be figuring out how to save his sister/his friends/the world and on a personal note figuring out his true feelings for El and Will.

I think Will already showed Mike that he was loved for who he is in S4, and that will stay with him, regardless of who the painting is from. I like the idea of Mike finally taking pride in his identity in S5 though. And I absolutely agree that Will is the one with internalized homophobia, it's not even subtext anymore. "Sometimes you feel like a mistake". Will is the one who's gonna have to overcome his internalized homophobia and learn to love himself, maybe with the help of Mike showing him that he loves him back and that's okay. Good, even. Their love is a good, real and powerful thing and that can be a key to overcoming Vecna since he feeds on shame and self-hatred. If Mike and Will are feeling love, joy and pride, Vecna won't be able to get to them (not psychologically at least). But they'll probably need a whole season of drama and misunderstandings and figuring their stuff out before they can finally get to that point.

My unpopular Mike opinion

I don't think Mike has internalized homophobia, and I don't think he's aware of his feelings for Will. I enjoy this idea in fanon but it doesn't seem to be what the show is going for, in my opinion. Like Finn and the Duffers have said, I see Mike as being completely oblivious, to all of it. He most likely suffers from compulsory heterosexuality and that's why he's always tried so hard to make it work with El, because he thinks that's just how it's supposed to be, this must be what he's feeling, right? (I'm also not ruling out the possibility that he did/does have romantic feelings for El, which would make it even more powerful when he chooses Will in the end). But he's never thought of Will in a romantic light before, he doesn't even know that's an option!

The other thing is that when it finally clicks for him, I don't want it to be this heavy, angsty thing. I want to see relief, joy. I want him to feel so relieved because he finally understands why things were always so difficult with El and why he was never able to balance El and Will in his life. Finally, everything makes sense. And I want him to feel so happy because he realizes he's in in love with his best friend and his best friend loves him back, and it's the best feeling in the world. No more queer pain (we've had enough of that with Will), give me queer joy! This would, in my opinion, be the most impactful story.

[castlebyersthoughts]

My unpopular Mike opinion

I don't think Mike has internalized homophobia, and I don't think he's aware of his feelings for Will. I enjoy this idea in fanon but it doesn't seem to be what the show is going for, in my opinion. Like Finn and the Duffers have said, I see Mike as being completely oblivious, to all of it. He most likely suffers from compulsory heterosexuality and that's why he's always tried so hard to make it work with El, because he thinks that's just how it's supposed to be, this must be what he's feeling, right? (I'm also not ruling out the possibility that he did/does have romantic feelings for El, which would make it even more powerful when he chooses Will in the end). But he's never thought of Will in a romantic light before, he doesn't even know that's an option!

The other thing is that when it finally clicks for him, I don't want it to be this heavy, angsty thing. I want to see relief, joy. I want him to feel so relieved because he finally understands why things were always so difficult with El and why he was never able to balance El and Will in his life. Finally, everything makes sense. And I want him to feel so happy because he realizes he's in in love with his best friend and his best friend loves him back, and it's the best feeling in the world. No more queer pain (we've had enough of that with Will), give me queer joy! This would, in my opinion, be the most impactful story.

[castlebyersthoughts]

Regardless of Byler, the teaser being so Will focused was the perfect slap in the face for Milkvans who’ve been downplaying Will’s importance for the past 3 years.

[castlebyersthoughts]

Let's do a quick comparison of El's and Will's first and last scenes...

First shot of season 4:

(El painting Hopper's figurine for her diorama vs Will making a romantic painting for Mike)

Last one on one scene of season 4:

What we know of season 5:

In conclusion, once again, El's personal arc is about family more than romance and her relationship with Hopper seems to be what the writers are focusing on. Will's arc is about romantic love and his feelings for Mike. This kinda spells out how the ending of the love triangle, don't you think? Why would the writers focus on those two pairings in the last season of the show if Mike and El are supposed to be this endgame power couple? Why did Mike promise to be a team and to kill Vecna with his best friend who's secretely in love with him instead of his superhero girlfriend? Where exactly is the supposed "main couple of the show"?

[castlebyersthoughts]

not to be that guy but honestly... milkvan being canon would not even mean anything to straight people. it would be unimpressive as far as the actual show goes, but it's also impressively uninteresting outside of it too. it's literally just a drop in a bucket, it's one of a million toxic straight ships revered for the sole virtue of not being gay. it would be essentially meaningless even to the people who adore it because it doesn't say or change anything.

i don't think they get how demoralizing it is to grow up gay and see your love only ever portrayed as a tragedy or a punchline. even before you know that this is the way you experience the world, you know that your experience is deemed as fundamentally wrong, lonely, and unsympathetic.

brokeback mountain was made into a joke by the general audience. people still so frequently turn homosexual desire into something perverse or something to laugh at. maybe they do know and they just don't care, but the point is byler would actually have an impact. it has a message to it that, unlike mike & el's relationship, actually lines up with what the show's been telling us.

and yes the complete truth is that technically, that's not something that's at all obligated in order to make a ship good or worth doing. almost every straight couple in media, even the really good ones, fall under that category because straight people don't really have a lot left that needs to be said about them, but it is something that is crucial to understand when it comes to thinking about the longetivy of your work and how it's remembered.

what is this saying now, what is it going to say in the future, what does it say about the past? how does it resonate with the kids of today, yesterday, and tomorrow? and byler would say something about overcoming obstacles that milkvan just couldn't since their primary obstacle is their own innate inability to love each other in a way that's healthy.

like yes, you're absolutely right that it's possible that the show whose core message is about uplifting people who don't fit into society's expectations is going to throw that away and tell the same story everybody else has already told, throwing a perpetually-tortured gay kid into the depths of despair and trapping three traumatized teenagers into a cycle of shame that they pass onto the next generation, but what does that say, and why do you want so badly for them to say it?

[castlebyersthoughts]

Maybe it was a meta thing and we were supposed to feel like we had lost, just like the characters... Maybe that's how you're supposed to be feeling when you're watching 4x09 anyway, our reaction just ended up being 100x more visceral because of how invested we were in Byler. Maybe m*levens were wrong to see a victory here... they're literally the only ones who did. (I don't actually believe this was the Duffers' intent but it sure is fun to think that way!)

it's so funny to me how DEVASTATED we all were in 2022 right after s4 came out, like we had no hope, we were sure we'd just been queerbaited to death, we were completely disappointed with everything and like a month later we were like... yo guys wait

[castlebyersthoughts]

the writers couldn’t be any more obvious about who’s ending up together

[castlebyersthoughts]

hi i recognise you from reddit which i am trying my best to stay away from haha! you're a warrior there. its a strange place, but if you noticed, when the teaser dropped, there were thousands of normal fans with normal responses to it being will heavy etc, but after a day or two only the 30 or so milevens were left still chatting shit. so there seems to be a core group. im sure you know the most professor umbridge-esque reddit mileven of all, whose username includes a tooting night bird. their reaction is what i'm most curious about, because they talk a lot about how much they'll enjoy byler's downfall and seem to be very narcissistic/masochistic in general. and seeing as we're now at a fascist-level of subreddit etiquette (i.e. even the moderators are biased control freaks who delete byler related posts), what do you think will actually occur in the aftermath of s5?

will they deny? or will they blame noah, being a gay man? will they demand the 'real' stranger things 5 be released, or the season remade? will they boycott and attack the writers and actors? i'm so curious about the ways they'll explain things - not even byler endgame, but the splitting of mileven in general, which will be undeniable at that point.

seeing the trailer will be interesting too, if its will heavy, but the show itself... whoo boy.

Hi anon! Your ask made me laugh, not gonna lie. I know exactly who you're talking about of course. There really is a core group of m*levens who keep policing the fandom and stating their same 5 wishful-thinking sentences like they're facts, to the point where it becomes kind of funny. "Mike and El are in love, they'll get their happy ending, Mike will make it clear he can't reciprocate Will's feelings" (why is that needed when according to them everyone and their mother knows it already? lmao).

It'll be interesting to see the reaction to S5, for sure. What you're speculating here won't happen on reddit in my opinion. The kind of crash out where they blame an actor or ask for the season to be remade is something you can find on twitter. On reddit people will want to save face. So, if Byler does happen (because unlike them I'm of the opinion that you can never be 100% sure of anything), I'm seeing two possibilities for the most "intellectual" m*levens: either we will never see them again because they felt betrayed by the show and won't want to talk about it or show their face again (but they may crash out anonymously on twitter, or use their alts), or they will somewhat ignore the Byler plot altogether and find ways to express their discontent with the show by criticizing everything that can be criticized (like El ending up single and stuff... this may include Byler as well, if it's rushed for example).

Honestly my dream scenario is that the Duffers wrote an amazing season that is praised by the GA and the fans alike... and Byler just happens to be a part of it. I want the Duffers to make Byler make sense and make it so good and emotional that everyone ends up rooting for it and cheering for it. We'd then have a ton of new posts by the GA that would discuss Byler and be all excited about it... and only the homophobes and the 7 m*levens would say that they didn't like the season. I would love this so much, even though I know it's impossible to make the "perfect" season. But they absolutely can write Byler well, just look at Lumax: the GA (and the fandom) started loving them out of nowhere after S4. I'm confident this can happen for Byler too.

As for the splitting of m*leven, it'll be "El deserves better, she was traumatized her whole life and she lost the boy she loved, how could they do this to her", etc. Mind you they will make it super clear in the season that El is 100% happy about this decision and her and Mike are better as friends. Or they will say "what a wasted opportunity, you had the most perfect romance on TV and you broke them up for a small subset of fans". Which is why I absolutely want the Duffers to clearly state when they started planning for Byler in the post-season documentary. But the fan service allegations will probably be big on reddit.

What I don't know is if some of them will accept that they were reading the show wrong and admit that it was all building up to Byler and that we were right... Honestly I don't see that happening. But who knows, maybe the less toxic ones can surprise us!

Thanks for asking 🫶

[castlebyersthoughts]

There could be 15 m*leven kisses this season I’d still know that those two are NOT ending up together. Come on, people…

I don’t believe in byler anymore.

Mlvn kiss is not in the 1st episode, but in the mid season eww

Okay, I'm responding to this one and that's it tho

- the leak could be fake, these leakers have not posted actual proof, some of them just the other day admitted to lie and others simply twist information because they are melvins or hate Bylers.

- the leak could be real but it is a Vecna vision that Will is having

- the leak could be real and it's a kiss like this one in IT Chapter 2 - they kiss again after they have broken up, they are NOT endgame

This ship EXPLICITLY paralleled to Byler is endgame

Byler is endgame, believe in it or not, but please stop sending these to me in the future, thanks 💕

[castlebyersthoughts]

Thinking about how the Snow Ball kiss was literally confirmed fan service for Milkvans.

That they did not have any intention of having them kiss at the end of that season (abnormal for a romantic reunion don't you think....👀) but Millie thought that fans would be disappointed with that.

"Byler is fan service" meanwhile the writers trying to write Byler and shift away from Milkvan were making little sacrifices to give Mike and El romantic moments.

Their original intention was for Mike and El NOT to kiss and then for it to cut to WILL looking over at them dancing as *the* last shot before cutting away to the mind flayer.

Their original intention was basically this

Not a Mlvn payoff. They wanted to end on a Byler setup.