dutchdread

[dutchdread]

Hello, same anon about the Zerith ask, and I’m very thankful for taking the time to write that long and thoughtful reply. Your answer has made me rethink and reconsider a lot of things about the relationships in the game, but there’s one point I still can’t quite wrap my head around.

You said SE doesn’t want us to hate their characters, and that’s true, especially when it comes to Aerith who has long been a darling in the FF fandom, but doesn’t the fact that so many parts of the fandom have a lower opinion of her, if not outright hate her now, just prove that SE has failed?

Now, shippers will always hate characters and portray them in the worst way imaginable simply for “getting in the way” of a ship, and I personally used to like Aerith and thought Clotis were demonising her way too much, but after Rebirth, I find myself not liking her anymore and being appalled at her behaviour. I thought it was just me but I’ve found that many people had lowered opinion of Aerith’s character after Rebirth, whether they’re CTs who once tolerated her and who now absolutely despise her, or ZA shippers like myself who can’t like it anymore. I even find posts disparaging Aerith getting so many likes and RTs on Twitter, way more than pre-Rebirth. Like, in the thousands. I’m not saying she’s universally hated now, on the contrary, she has many fans and is still a very beloved character, but it seems the reactions to her are much more mixed and polarising now.

What I’m trying to say, did SE foresee this? Did they expect Aerith to get negative reactions form fans? If so, why take such a risk with such an iconic and beloved character ? If they didn’t expect this and saw absolutely no problem with how Aerith acts, then that’s incredibly tone-deaf for a writer.

I would like to bring up the infamous case of Masashi Kishimoto who tried desperately to make fans like Sakura and dedicated a character arc for her that was supposed to make her look selfless and caring, only for this to backfire badly and make her even more hated because he was so tone-deaf he didn’t realise the way he wrote her character in that arc came off as manipulative and self-centred to the majority of the fandom. That interpretation was not his intention at all, and he genuinely thought he did a good job, but the fact Sakura was massively hated because of the way he wrote it.

sorry for the rant, this turned out to be much longer that I had intended.

Don't worry, I am familiar with replies turning out longer than you anticipated. And I like long thorough replies because in my experience every disagreement online turns into an argument, which means that if you don't want the conversation to trail off-course you'd better plug every single perceived hole people might latch onto, because if you don't, no matter how irrelevant the thing you left out, that's now the new topic at hand, the reason why everything else you said can be ignored. I'd like to point out that you didn't actually bring up a disagreement, or even something that you (I believe) don't understand. "doesn't that prove SE has failed". Yes, they have....you are correct. And your example of Sakura is a perfect comparison, because it illustrates that exact thing. I am not sure if there is much that I can add to your conclusion, I think it's fair. But I'll do my best, but I will state upfront that personally, I feel that SE did indeed fail with Aeriths character in meaningful ways.

The Sakura comparison shows that it is completely possible for creators to miss the mark, and I think it's important to understand why. The reason is bias, in this case not by the viewer but by the author. You see, it's almost impossible to really look at your own creations objectively, it's like seeing the faults in your own children. No author can really look at a character and truly see them "as if for the first time". Any action the character takes the author knows their reasoning, their feelings, etc. So logically they'll be inclined, when viewing said characters actions, to see them as expressions of those same thoughts and feelings. If we look at Clouds actions in AC, to us it's completely obvious what those actions say about Cloud and his motivations. And yet Cleriths see them completely differently, not just slightly, but so differently as to change the entire characterization of the Character. If such a disconnect can exist even between fans, who ostensibly should be in the same position in relation to the product, then isn't it obvious that the same can happen between how the creators view the characters vs the audience?

There is a lesson to be had there about real life as well. This is one of the reasons people are often more harsher on others than they would be on themselves in a similar situation. It's not just bias towards oneself, but also the very fact that an outsider never has all the information. They've not lived your life, and as a result can't truly sympathize with it. We see this extra strongly online, where everyone is anonymous and as a result any disagreement could not possibly be just a slight difference in opinion due to different lived experiences between mostly similar people, but a sign that the person you're talking to must be satan incarnate, a misogynistic, misandrist, racist, fat, ugly, troll with no friends, no partner, and no life. In reality though they could as easily be a loving family man (or woman) who works out daily, has a normal social life, and keeps their neck blissfully free of beards, but for some completely non-malicious reason, simply thinks you are not quite correct on something. If everyone is the hero in their own story, and yet can be hated by everyone else, why would the same not be true of the characters we write? Everyone has their own lived experiences that color how we perceive things. Someone who got cheated on might latch onto Clouds actions and see the shadow of those events on Clouds behavior in AC, while someone who has gone through a depression might see different shadows entirely. I've always said words are like throwing darts on a dart board to reveal intention. At times your words completely miss their mark. But when a darter throws a 1 no one is wondering why they didn't "choose" to throw a triple 20. They probably tried and missed. So rather than taking every single throw as indicative of intent we look at all their throws. Does this person have good accuracy? Do the darts clutter around a certain position? All that together tells us what they were probably going for, that's the charity principle. If the choice is between maliciousness or incompetence, it's most likely incompetence. Next thing I'd like to bring up is that it's also never possible to please everyone. As I mentioned earlier, our perceptions are influenced by our lived experiences, our personalities, everything. And there will always be people that for some reason or another, have a negative experience with a character. I've heard plenty of people criticize Aerith, but I've also seen plenty of people who played Rebirth who loved her. Some because they're old fans and have a pre-existing affection, and therefore charity, towards her. Some because they're new and therefor LACK some of the context that make her character less palatable to others, and some who simply have different things that they see as important. I hate overly dramatic center of the universe character writing and how forced it feels. Someone else might be less critical and eat that shit up.

But yeah, I do think SE expected some level of controversy. I believe I've seen quotes that imply something to that effect, but I think they're mostly minor (And I don't really feel like searching them up right now tbh). They most certainly didn't intentionally turn her into an anti-hero or something like that, mostly they likely just wanted her to have a very slight amount of spice, just enough to keep people slightly on their toes and make her (and the story) more human and engaging, but not morally flawed to such an extent that people would actively start to dislike her. Remember, one of the biggest misconceptions about the original game in the eyes of the developers was the idea, which many people seemingly had, that Tifa and Aerith were enemies. That completely surprised them and we see the attempt to rectify that in remake and Rebirth. SE wanted there to be no doubt that Tifa and Aerith were friends, because that's something they failed at earlier. However, that same friendship also makes Aeriths actions come across as more egregious. The entire Cloud/Zack/Tifa/Aerith dynamic is a really difficult maze to navigate, one wrong move and a part of it collapses.

All that having been said though I am not trying to argue that it's impossible to fail at writing a character because people will always complain. I am not. These are just things that need to be kept in the back of the head when analyzing a character. What are your own biases, what were they going for, why would the developers make these choices, is this an outlier, etc. And if by the end you decide you still don't like the character that's fine. But there are two different ways to dislike a character. One is because you misinterpret the characters motivations because their actions don't fit how YOU think someone would act under the circumstances. In which case it's still fine to dislike the character as "a part of the story", but unfair to dislike them "as a person". Cloud is NOT running away in AC because he's lovesick, so disliking him for his lovesickness is simply false. Aerith does NOT undervalue Zack, so disliking her for that would be false, but it would still be perfectly valid to dislike those parts of the franchise, and therefore the character for the effect it had on it. The other way is because you correctly interpreted the characters actions and motivations and thoughts and feelings, etc, but simply DO NOT like those kinds of people despite the author seemingly thinking they're likable traits. People like dogs, I like cats. If a dog is written to act like a dog I am sure the author wants you to like them, but personally I like being left alone, thank you very much, and am not a huge fan of big hairy smelly beasts constantly making my hands dirty. Whether your problems with Aerith are the first type or the second, and whether that's fair towards Aerith or simply you being too harsh on someone who doesn't quite fit your preferred mold of person, is up to you to figure out.

Before I go I will say one last thing about my own stance on Aerith....I do not like what SE has done with her character in Remake and rebirth. She’s one of the three most damaged characters in the new continuity, alongside Sephiroth and Cid. And that’s the irony; the biggest victim here is Aerith herself, and the amazing character she used to be. But I don't dislike Aerith as a person, and still wish her happiness. I just wish SE had respected her enough, had respected the game and its story enough, not to make her a walking drama McGuffin. The tragedy is that underneath all this Aerith’s core - the radiant girl who saw her lost love in the MC - is still there, but now buried under writing that mistook convolution for cleverness and left her caught between story elements that all deserved better. What they tried doing with Aerith was ambitious and therefore couldn't afford a mixed response, the very fact that they made it so central and important but failed to get so many people on board shows that they missed the mark with her character. Sometimes when you aim for the moon and miss you don't land among the stars; sometimes aiming for triple 20 causes you to hit the 1. Thanks for the response.

[dutchdread]

The biggest fanfic moment in the Remake isn't even Aerith's performance. It's when Tifa saves Cloud on the roof of the Shinra building. I have to believe that Cloud can't do a single pull-up and a triple somersault upside down. Or when Cloud recited the mantra about Dreams and Honor (you know, the one he never does), which is so out of character it's just laughable.

The inconsistency with the characters physical abilities is really annoying, and part of a failure of the remake to really build up the story slowly. You talk about him not being able to pull himself up, but lets point out the even bigger inconsistency of them being able to have a ACC style combat with a harbinger of fate the one moment, and then struggling to win sit-up competitions the next. I also find it funny that apparently Cloud was a-ok with just dropping to his death when he could have also, you know, drop the sword....Or hell, put it on his back. Thats a nit-pick though, the bigger issue is inconsistency in the rising stakes in terms of enemies.

[dutchdread]

Just want to say that I’m very happy to see you back. I’m reaching the end of my Rebirth’s journey so your timing is perfect. Hope life’s good and I’m looking forward to more of your writing.

Thanks, I'm fine yeah, though I wouldn't say I'm back as much as "I happened to be dragged back into thinking about this this month". Hope you're enjoying Rebirth.

[dutchdread]

Self-insert fanfiction?

And this is coming from a Zack fan, hurry to see. In general, the entire section with Loveless was like a fanfic, from the production itself, where the characters for some reason know the lines and the script, to the virtual ghosts of the Avalanche trio. But you were picking on Aerith. Her performance doesn't stand out against the background of this shit. Hey do you know who named Seventh heaven?

Ok, so lets talk about Zack, Aerith, and fan-fiction writing. I can see viewing Zack as a fan-fiction character (in remake at least), that having been said, there are a BUNCH of nuances here that have to be taken into account. Yes, the game can have some fan-fiction energy, and that's a big part of my complaints surrounding the game in general (see: The white washing of Cid), but lets talk about proportion and function.

1: Zack the self-insert:

First things first.....Zack literally IS a self-insert character.....for Cloud. That is his entire point in universe. Zack in a way represents everything that Cloud wanted to be, the thing he felt he aught to be. Zack therefore being a "Himmel"esque squeaky clean amazing hero isn't a failure of character writing, it's a defining characteristic that contrasts him to Cloud, and that is admissible BECAUSE the core of the overarching story ultimately revolves around Cloud. Zacks moral goodness has a storytelling function beyond just making him the center of the universe that is not applicable to things like Aerith for some reason being a childhood art-prodigy.

2: The world doesn't revolve around Zack

While Zack might be a great guy that "Gary-stu" aspect ends with him. Zack is great, but the universe doesn't bend to accommodate it. Other characters still give him crap, he still has to fight every step of the way for everything he earns. At no point does he simply walk into a broadway musical only to be asked to perform the masterpiece he just threw together in his spare time. In fact one of the motifs of CC is how Zacks naive optimism is challenged and tested by the constant harsh realities of the world and how that changes and matures him. The test being whether he can learn the lessons those events are teaching, so he can weather the storms of life and grow as a person while still keeping his hopes and dreams intact, while still remaining true to himself.

3: Zack's "forced" Importance:

Concerning Zack being tied into a lot of stuff from the OG, like Seventh heavens name, Aeriths ribbon, why she wears pink, etc, there are again some differences here. CC is Zacks game, FFVII remake is not Aeriths game, if you say it is then we've u-turned right back into Aeriths remake portrayal being too fan-fictiony.

Since CC was Zacks game from the start him being the central figure there makes sense, as does showing that importance. And because it still ties into FFVII, and because showing Zacks importance to the story and cast of FFVII was crucial to the intended experience, they wanted to invent ways to make Zack matter that actually tied into the OG rather than just having it be all new stuff. Lets say Zack gave Aerith something that we've never seen before, that would kinda be underwhelming don't you think? They want to show that Zack impacted the cast, so by definition he has to be tied into stuff that we already knew meant something to them, and ultimately that will almost always feel forced. Rather than inspire seventh heaven Zack could have given Tifa her gloves, would that be better? No, you'd get the same complaints. So what's the alternative? Just having a game about Zack where you discover....he meant nothing really, kinda impacted noone....? You can argue it was clumsily done, and it's an unfortunately hard to avoid problem when dealing with sequels and prequels, but there are reasons for these reveals besides just making Zack super important just because "Zack is cool and I want the game to revolve around him!". Ultimately Zack’s centrality stems from structural necessity, CC is his story, whereas Aerith’s growing centrality feels more like a byproduct of audience nostalgia being mistaken for narrative priority.

4: Zack the failure:

Zack fails....like, a lot. A Maru-sue or a Gary-stu isn't just about being an unreastically morally perfect person, there are a bunch more potential points on this checklist, and ultimately will always have to be argued on a case by case basis. Other things that hallmark this type of character would be that they always succeed, or worse, that the universe itself bends in unrealistic ways to make them succeed. But Zack fails to save Angeal, and Sephiroth, and Genesis, everything he does seems to go wrong. "fate's got one twisted sense of humor, and I'm always the punchline". Zack is absolutely annoying at the start of CC. He doesn't start off a hero, he grows into one. While Aerith starts off in remake as a mysterious magical quest giver Zack starts as an overly enthusiastic puppy. His sub-sequent rise towards being a hero is shielded from ever becoming too idealistic because of how it will inevitably end, him dying in combat for his ideals, with Cloud ultimately being the one who saves the planet. Whether that is undermined by remake is a different argument. But in terms of his role within CC, his own game, his characterization is completely earned

5: Concerning Aerith:

But what about Aerith? Aerith seemingly has the entire universe bending just to make sure she doesn't die. Now do I think she's actually alive? No. Do the same potential writing choices also imply Zack surviving? Yes. But here we get to that annoying nuance again. Does the answer to Aeriths survival really change the way the first two games are written in terms of Aeriths "fan-fiction" portrayal? I argue no. Aerith still being dead doesn't change the fact that these two games had an overblown focus on dangling the carrot of Aeriths potential survival over the heads of the player, overshadowing the plot of the actual game.

Why is the focus on "stopping destiny" rather than "stopping Meteor"? Now we can argue until the cows come home what stopping destiny will actually turn out to mean in the end, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a bait and switch where, in the moment, the developers are milking Aeriths fate as the primary emotional hook.

6: Loveless:

Was the entire Loveless part fan-fictiony? Yep, but these scenes are not all made equal. For one the loveless play takes place inside VR, the implication being that EVERYONE saw themselves in the play in some way, but only Aerith got to be the person everyone sees singing. Not only that but she was called over the speaker DURING the performance, despite them having no prior indication of her musical talents. Then there is the play itself, should we compare the performances? The others all act like believable first time actors, Cloud is wooden and awkward, Yuffie is childish and giggly, Tifa is overearnest. But when Aerith sings it is directed as though she's been on stage a thousand times, and as stated before, literally no one gets their own additional part except for Aerith. Now, if that was the only example of Aerith being portrayed as such we wouldn't have much of an issue, but it's not, almost every scene with her feels like it had to be made forcefully poignant, from the moment we meet her we get tear filled flash-forwards of her tragic death. If all this importance felt like the logical result of what came before in the story this wouldn't be an issue. But it's not, Aeriths scenes are very back-loaded, she has a lot of scenes surrounding her final chapters, as we'd expect, but not that many beforehand. Even counting remake this level of dramatization isn't really earned, it FEELS like the sort of dramatic scenes and send-offs we'd give someone after 30 years of games. But thats not the case for the people in universe, this is a REMAKE, and the game is supposed to stand on its own. It feels as though the remake is trying to leverage the emotional build-up the audience already had for Aerith prior to the remake rather than what was earned through the remake itself. For me, as someone who believes the remake should be able to stand on its own, that's self-indulgent. Which leads to the biggest sin of all:

The milking of Aeriths death

This death that was originally designed to be "not hollywood", to happen quickly and suddenly and leave nothing but emptiness, has now become perhaps the most Hollywoodized death in modern JRPGs. And because she's ultimately still just one person of many to die in the games, and because we have to view the remake as potentially its own product, rather than assuming the player has 30 years of missing Aerith under their belt, this dramatization of Aeriths death over everything else that's going on is inherently unearned. And while you can pretend the same goes for Zack in your heart of hearts you have to admit that Zacks potential survival seemed more about potentially saving Aerith than about Zack himself. Hell, if Cleriths are to be believed the point of Zacks return is just to give Cloud and Aerith his blessing and Fuck off. Which in itself says a lot about the fan-fictiony nature of Clerith in general. But yeah, if you want to complain about Zacks inclusion in Rebirth, I have no issues with that either, I don't like how it was done, and I would gladly sacrifice Zacks scenes if it meant also getting rid of Aeriths plot ghost related changes.

Ultimately, both Zack and Aerith have stories that at times risk tipping into self-indulgence, but the difference lies in the execution. Zacks portrayal, while at times a bit forced, fits into a story about growth, impact, and legacy. Aerith, meanwhile, is treated more like an icon than a person, and in a story where life, mortality, and humanity, are central themes, that iconography undermines the human stakes.

[dutchdread]

Look, if you're so interested in the characters' personalities or the quality of the writing, why do you even like the remake?

Barret literally speedran his own arc by the end of the first game. He's no longer an evil bruiser chasing revenge and justifying the sacrifice of innocents with the noble goal of saving the planet. He's a sweet papa bear who's outgrown his thirst for revenge and is now fighting for Marlene's future. He doesn't even want to kill Rude, who dropped the stove. Because he decided not to shoot him but to fight him in a fistfight.

Tifa literally has no flaws, she doesn't make questionable decisions, in principle. At the start of the remake, she's quite happy living in the slums and running a bar. She morally explains to Cloud why he was wrong to try to kill Johnny, when exactly yesterday Cloud and her friends blew up the reactor with a bunch of subsequent victims. And killing one person who can lead to the death of the entire Avalanche cell is a completely appropriate decision in this situation. And she's right, and you know why, because the writers want it that way. She's already finished her arc, now he's fighting for the planet. She has a couple of far-fetched flaws that don't match her actions. That she doesn't like conflicts (though she wasn't very restrained in her expressions with Cloud in Kalm), and that it turns out she can't make friends easily (which, however, doesn't stop her from having a ton of friends her entire life). Talented in everything she does, insanely beautiful, smart, mature, strong.

Aerith is a total badass, now she's an all-knowing goddess who plays 4D chess against Sephiroth in multi-realities. Capable of throwing Cloud and Zack into a pocket reality to transfer all sorts of goodies to the main reality. In OG, her death was tragic, because the game said that she didn't want to die, in the Remake, it's self-sacrifice like Jesus. And can she even die? Sephiroth turned her off twice (in the Church, the Capital) and this does not stop her from helping Cloud give Sephiroth a beating.

Sephiroth literally climbed out and Sefikura fanfics, he does not want to kill Cloud, he saves him. But then he still shoves him into this Edge of Creation and fights with him. (Why is he fighting him? If he needs Cloud) Purely a gay faggot from space who wants Cloud to pierce him. (And not with a sword)

Zack - a Gary stu version of Tidus

Yuffie - Rikku clone/

The fact that they expanded the dialogues between the characters is a consequence of the fact that,

1 that the game was divided into three parts, (it is logical that the characters will have more dialogues)

2 that they have technologies 25 years more advanced, and the voice acting in games and cinematography are now the standard, compared to 1997.

3 That they are given incomparably more time and money for each of these parts.

The characters themselves are not written any better. All their shortcomings from the OG are either removed or very much smoothed out. (Except for Cloud, of course, who is responsible for 99% of the angst.) Villains, if they are beautiful, then they become morally gray or tragic (Turks, Rufus, Sephiroth), those whose in-game models are unattractive are 100% cartoonishly evil. (Hojo, Corneo). To please that part of the fans who play the remake with one hand (which is about 70% of the entire fan base).

Fanservice fantasy 7. For fans of the compilation, with a bunch of references to it.

"why do you even like the remake?" Making a lot of assumptions here. I don't like the remake, in fact I find it to be an absolute insult to the OG in almost every way. Them seemingly trying to finally squash the love square debate is one of the few good things I have to say about it. In fact, I think the strongest argument one could make for Clerith would most likely be: "If Clerith were correct this would be an extremely shallow and poorly written meaningless story, and the addition of plot ghosts, chapter 2 Sephiroth reveals, and good guy Cid proves, that is indeed what remake is!". Apparently Nintendo revealed that Mario and Peach are "just friends", so you can never completely count out companies being bat-shit insane. I still want to review Rebirth at some point, but I just don't have the motivation. I argue about this because I love the OG, and it annoys me how wrong people are about this story, but I have very little love for what SE is doing to the remake project. The parts that are faithful are mostly excellent, literally every other choice they made though? Not so much. Yeah thanks SE, I love fighting Sephiroth at the end of every game, that will totally make him intimidating rather than, you know, completely impotent.

Pictured, me by the time we get to north crater. You have 3 games rather than 1, and rather than using the fact that, unlike most stories turned into a trilogy, you are blessed with 5 potential major villains. (Sephiroth, Jenova, president Shinra, Rufus Shinra, Hojo), and a bunch of minor ones. You instead chose to shoot your load in chapter 2. I cannot imagine the level of incompetence needed to go "wow, we have 3 entire games to build up our villain.....lets not do that". These games had the potential to blow the original out of the water, all it had to do was bide its time and expand the world building. More Wutai, LESS SEPHIROTH CONTROLLING WUTAI! Game one could heavily focus on Shinra, game 2 jenova, game 3 could be the long awaited confrontation with Sephiroth, but no. Incompetence on a massive scale. Sorry for readers who thought I was a remake fan I guess....

[dutchdread]

I honestly don’t like Zerith anymore. I have a hard time rationalising Aerith’s behaviour in Rebirth when she’s going to be all over Zack in P3, like how does that even make sense, it’s not a good look for her character at all and I think their reunion will just make me dislike her and the ship even more. I’d like to know your opinion on it.

I understand that, even so I think it's possible to look at Aeriths actions in a way that makes it less objectionable, and for the sake of enjoying the story I would recommend not making the mistake of leaning into interpretations that would lessen your enjoyment of it. I think you can be fair and criticize something while still doing your best to make the most out of it. Before analyzing Aeriths actions though I think it's important to always keep one thing in the back of your mind: SE doesn't want you to hate its main characters. It's totally possible for SE to fail in their story telling, for them to want a character to come across as likable but instead have them come across as completely annoying. But if we want to accurately judge a characters intentions we need to be able to separate how we see a character vs how the developers hoped we would see the character. This is something Cleriths have been historically bad at, which is where we get takes like "Tifa is a manipulative slut" or "Cloud just wants to forsake Tifa and the children so he can go die and be with Aerith" from. We have to make sure we don't fall into the same trap. Clerith try to defend these takes by arguing that the characters actions somehow diegetically point in that direction when any reasonable person should understand that that's not what SE would by trying to convey, and that therefor even if you were to be able to effectively argue that this is a reasonable interpretation of their actions that STILL doesn't imply that that's also the authorial intent. Rather it would simply convey a failure of storytelling.

SE clearly doesn't want to present Aeriths as some sociopathic hussy who would try to get into Tifas good graces in public, but then completely dismiss her feelings in private and attempt to seduce Cloud. If we look at rebirth and see Zack desperately fight through thick and thin for his love for Aerith, and see that contrasted with Aerith as living life, not a care in the world, flirting with Cloud, having long since pushed her memories of Zack off a cliff by merely spending a week with Cloud, then obviously that interpretation paints Aerith in a completely HORRIBLY negative light, which implies that said interpretation is wrong. The optics here are horrible; Zack suffers, and Aerith parties. now obviously in any real world scenario after 4 years of not hearing from a boy this is completely understandable, but the point is: Optics matter here because this isn't an unbiased documentary, this is a story, and stories are shaped by the telling. The optics are chosen by the developers, it's not been 4 years since we've seen Zack, it's 4 minutes. If something is framed in a negative light it is done so for a reason. If the developers don't want to invoke feelings of "this is wrong" when seeing Aerith with Cloud they could choose to simply NOT show Zack. When Cleriths argue that it's fine to move on after 4 years they're completely right of course, but this isn't real life. The developers chose to frame the story in such a way that Aeriths actions make us feel uncomfortable.

So now the question is "WHY"? What reading of this story makes it so that Aerith is a sympathetic character rather than a distasteful one? Well I can summarize it in a single core sentence: Through his living legacy, Aerith gets one last week with Zack. As I've gone over before, the developers would not want us to hate Aerith, yet they consistently frame Aerith in a way where, if you read Aeriths actions towards Cloud as romantically straightforward and geuine Aerith comes across as a borderline villain. You could defend her logically, but that doesn't change the framing. So the answer must be that that's not how the developers are trying to present Aerith. They are most likely trying to present Aerith in a more charitable light, and either failing because they're simply not doing a good job, or because we with our history of being tired from having to argue against her fans for 30 years have simply become prone to not giving her the benefit of the doubt. So is there a way to read Aerith that makes her sympathetic rather than distasteful? I think there is, I think the interpretation Clotis have always had for her does a fine job as long as we keep reminding ourselves of it. The reason Aerith is contrasted with Zack isn't simply to show that Zack is better for her than Cloud, and that Aerith is a frivolous girl who simply doesn't appreciate him and will jump on whoever is nearby, the Jenny to Zacks Forest Gump. No, the contrast is meant to inform the viewer of what Aerith is searching for, about the struggles she's going through. That she's not frivolous, she has her own trauma, a love that she feels she can never get back but is still yearning for in all her heart. When we see Cloud and Aerith have a nightmare date what we're intended to see is Aerith desperately coping because a part of her, even after all these years, misses Zack so much that she's not able to let go and is looking for any sort of life raft to keep her from drowning in it. When she says Zack has probably run off with some other girl that's not her undervaluing Zacks loyalty, or being callous, that's her finding a way to cope with the grief of him not being there. That's her forcing herself to act like it's no big deal to stop the reality of the situation from swallowing her up. At every point Aerith wants to move on, it's been 4 years after all, but can't, the shadow of Zack is everywhere. To me, if you don't look at Aeriths actions as a legitimate attempt at trying to seduce Cloud away from Tifa, but as just her recognizing something of Zack in Cloud, something she lost, and her trying to, clumsily, use that likeness as a way to reorient herself and give her back control of her life, allowing her stopped time to start moving again, then I think you can see her in a more positive light. After all, it's not just anyone that Aerith is coping with, it's someone explicitly channeling Zacks spirit, his living legacy. That itself should show that whatever actions Aerith performs are not because of a lack of appreciation for Zack, her feelings for Zack are strong enough that years later the mere shadow of Zack is still enough to make her unsure of herself. Aeriths one wish was to spend more time with Zack. Zack, under the water tower, promised to come see her, through Cloud Zack fulfills that wish. That is what the time with Cloud grants Aerith, closure. With Cloud Aerith gets to do the things she wanted to do with Zack. If you stop seeing scenes with Cloud and Aerith as being just about them, but start seeing them more as Zacks final promise to Aerith being granted through Cloud, the story starts making sense, and Aerith becomes a tragic character whose ultimate fate, while tragic, has a bittersweet silver lining.

Aerith gets to one last week with Zack, through Cloud, and as a result starts living in the now, and even though she doesn't want to get in between Tifa and Cloud she does want to explore her own heart, she needs to know what Cloud means to her simply to make sense of it and put it at rest. She doesn't know he's Zacks living legacy, she's confused and for a final resolution she needs to figure out what she feels. Even if she realizes it's love, that doesn't mean she'd try to steal Cloud from Tifa, her friend. For her own peace of mind she just needs clarity, and so, rather than looking for Zack in Cloud she tries looking at Cloud himself, at the person standing in front of her rather than just a stand in for Zack. But it's not the same, the spark is not there, they don't look like a couple. Aerith is glad she met Cloud, appreciates that he helped her move on, but while Cloud helped her get back on her feet what she feels for him is not the same as what she felt for Zack, and Clouds heart is likewise in another womans keeping. Do I think Aerith is consciously aware of all this during rebirth? No. I think the living Aerith, without the clarity of Lifestream knowledge, was simply trying to make sense of why she felt so strange around Cloud and what that means, she's more playful as one would expect a real person to be, handling everything the way a normal girl suffering from grief might, she's trying to come to terms with Zacks absence so she can let him go and live again. I think dream Aerith most likely is a bit more knowledgeable, aware of her impending (or bygone) fate, aware in some way of Clouds fake persona, and actively trying to put a concrete name to her feelings so she can now let HIM go and do her duty. Two Aeriths, two men, and two arcs, but Zack being her true love is core to both of them. Aerith comes to term with Zacks absence, but Cloud couldn't fill the void. Though now at peace, Aerith is still looking for her hero, and said hero is on his way.

[dutchdread]

What's the point of being Cloti? Because the way Cloti talks about characters, it's weird that they're not Zifa. So devaluing Cloud and Aeris for the sake of two dark-haired Mary Sues. Why ship Tifa with Cloud or Zack with Aeris? You can ship Tifa and Zack.

There is no point, this isn't about "the point", it's about being accurate. We're "Cloti" because that happens to be the story that the developers told. Whether we like it is irrelevant. Zack is my favorite person in FFVII, and I prefer Tifa over Aerith, sure. But why should that mean I should ship Zack with Tifa when that's not what either of them want, nor what the story has been building towards. There is only one thing I truly ship in FFVII, as in, there is only one pairing that I desperately want, and that's for "the game" and "a good story". I want the game to have the best possible story, that's it. And that so happens to be Cloti and Zerith, because that's how it was written. Anyway, seriously dude? You come here and call Tifa a Mary-sue while calling Aerith Aeris? Those are a bunch of red flags that someone isn't here on good faith. If you call her Aeris when it's been established time and time again that her name is Aerith you already show that you care less about what's true and more about that thing that you decided was true long ago to not be taken from you. And if you call Tifa a Mary-Sue while being an Aerith fan then you're just not operating under any sense of intellectual honesty. I am not here to flame Aerith, but if we're playing this game I'd like to point out that Aerith has caught the biggest case of "fan-fiction writing" I've ever seen. Fan-fiction writing is what happened to Tyrion Lannister in the later seasons of game of thrones. Where the character is no longer themselves but a caricature of themselves. The popularity of a character has influenced the writers and as a result they're no longer a complex, flawed, 3-dimensional character, but a collection of tropes and quirks that the audience now associates with them. Aerith was already a magical "last of her race" innocent savior of the planet. Then remake made her an artistic genius as age 5, as well as an all-knowing gandalf type mysterious quest giver around whom fate itself revolves. Then Rebirth actually had her write a last minute song that then somehow immediately won a competition despite the show being in 10 minutes, then the organizers went "do you want to sing it", which she of course did, and she excelled. And, of course, "everyone clapped". This is the worst self-insert fan-fiction sounding writing I've ever seen in a multi-million dollar media franchise, it's honestly an insult to the intelligence of both the audience, and Aeriths character, which was once well-written, but is now a joke.

And then Cleriths want to make the worst written character in Rebirth even worse by having fate itself upend to make her come to life, and have Cloud and Zack both vie for her affection, despite Cloud only knowing her for 2 weeks while being in love with another girl, who in this version of the story becomes a pathetic doormat. No thank you, seeing as how I ship "a good story", I am gonna pass on this. But yeah, calling Tifa a Mary-Sue in the same breath as defending "Clerith" is....well, it's a bold choice, lets see if it pays off.

[dutchdread]

Response: Clerith is a Japanese romance

This article was written as a response to a video linked to me on twitter. I felt that Twitters character limit is too restrictive to really address a 10 minute video so instead I decided to just post it here and link it to the original poster. While this article may be interesting to anyone it is mostly a response the original poster and is written as such, I might rewrite it later to make it more palatable for a more general audience. The video in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgOpJaSRkY&t=66s I recommend watching the video to get a full idea of the argument being made, but for a TLDR; version the video argues that Clerith is an example of a Japanese romantic story telling themes that are contrasted with Tifas more explicit western style romance, and that this explains why there is seemingly less explicit evidence of romance or grand gestures such as kisses, and why things like handholding are equally valid to establish romance. The video focusses mostly on the concepts off: "Mono no Aware", "Ma", and "Musubi".

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Response: So, I’ve listened to your video and as you’d probably expect I have some remarks. Luckily the subject matter didn't go as obscure as I thought it might so I didn’t really have to go into new areas for me in regards to Japanese culture so that makes responding a little easier. The bloodtype thing is indeed exceedingly japanese, but I don’t think that’s really where the bulk of the argument here lies so I’m gonna skip over that. Here are my issues with the video, in ascending order: ___________________________________________________ 1: This argument is, in essence, just an unfalsifiable claim:

You’re basically saying “yes, Clerith doesn’t have much solid evidence like Cloti does, but that's exactly what makes it MORE real”. But there is a problem here, because if you can assert romance without concrete evidence then how do you differentiate between a romantic dynamic and a similar “non-romance” one? What you’re promoting is essentially the Cloti interpretation of the story. You’ve taken what is ostensibly a weakness of Clerith, namely that it’s not explicit or concrete, but vague and ill-defined, and tried to switch that into a strength. And while I agree that ambiguity can be powerful storytelling it by itself doesn’t strengthen Aeriths case as a definitive love interest. Without concrete evidence, how do we distinguish romance from the deep platonic connection that Cloti asserts for Cloud and Aerith? ______________________________________________________

2: Concepts like “mono no aware” or “musubi”, are descriptive, not prescriptive While this type of dynamic was potentially what they were going for you can’t use that as evidence for Aerith being a legit romance interest. Yes, there are stories in both Japan AND the west that follow this mold (Lost in translation comes to mind), AND are romantic in nature, but there are also cases where they are not. While these concepts are useful frameworks to explore romance through they are not inherently romantic. They can represent a sense of connection, yes, but also grief, change, identity, or spiritual recognition. We need to ask: "why is romance the best reading in this case, especially when the story provides a more explicit, resolved romantic arc elsewhere?" Though concepts like “the beauty of the moment” certainly have a romantic air to them they are not inherently amorous, nor uniquely japanese, we even had an entire school of western art named “romanticism” which explored the beauty of transient things in distinct but similar ways. Just like all thumbs are fingers but not all fingers thumbs this doesn’t mean all these dynamics are romantic, you still need to actually make a case for why the romantic interpretation is more reasonable here AND what that actually means in this scenario. ------------------------------------------------------------------ 3: There is more than one theme to be considered. Which leads to the next issue, namely that this isn’t the only theme or character dynamic at play. You need to be able to answer: “how are these concepts woven into the story and how do they mesh with other concepts like the gnostic concept of the Sefirot, the more explicit “western” romance that you admit exists with Tifa, throwing off the fake self, coming to terms with loss, moving on, etc.” And this is where I believe you run into a brick wall, because fundamentally the concept of "aware" doesn’t require the “romance” part to be real, nor overpowering, nor central, nor enduring. By which I mean this entire thing can play out as part of Clouds fake persona arc and it would still be a completely valid way to use the general idea of "aware" as inspiration, hell, I’d even argue that these concepts naturally call for it. The kinships implied by Musubi, Ma, and Aware all do no need to be amorous, arguably them NOT being spousal in nature is often the point, the beauty of the moment devoid of materialistic definition. And seeing as how there is a parallel romance here that ISN’T vague, you again run into the issue that only one interpretation here respects both Heroines and everyones character arc. 

You focus on japanese concepts but as I stated earlier there is more than one motif at play here. One of my favorites to look at are the paths of the Sephiroth, with Aerith being representative of “chesed”, which also signifies a more non-sexual, compassionate love reminiscent of mother earth, and I am completely fine with an interpretation of the story where Cloud and Aerith during the “Cloud Zack identity crisis debacle” have confused feelings that ultimately resolve in some sort of “spiritual mutual appreciation of each others being”. I’d argue that that is exactly the type of interpretation you need to accept to make sense of the story.

_____________________________________________________ 4: You've been arguing for Cloti Which leads to perhaps my biggest issue, which is that what you’re doing here is essentially promoting the Cloti interpretation of the story. If we’re talking about the dynamic between Aerith and Cloud as some vague, ill-defined, “sense of a feeling”, that is subtle, spiritual rather than sexual, and focused around “what ifs” and “maybes”, and "the beauty of transient feelings", then congrats, you’re a Cloti. It’s not Clotis that are unsatisfied with anything less than a “concrete western physical romance”, it’s Cleriths. Clotis simply point out that that is what Cloud and Tifa have, and it’s seemingly what Cleriths desire, which is why they’re not satisfied with keeping it  “devoid of emotional clarity”.

Rather they want Cloud to NOT be with Tifa, but instead pine after Aerith after her death and have ghost babies with her, they want his feelings for Aerith to be distinctly sexual. None of this is vague or wistful, none of this respects the unique nature of bonds, nor the transience of beautiful things, What they desire is concrete and eternal. It’s a desire for the romance that we in the west regard as romance, which is “the desire to spend ones life by someones side for eternity”, INCLUDING raising kids, having a family, boy and girl, etc.

If Cleriths were willing to admit that that is what Tifa is for Cloud, and what he felt for Aerith was a vague sense of spiritual love that cannot exactly be put into words, then sure, but that’s not what they’re saying is it? Rather than them exemplifying the idea of seeing a beautiful flower, appreciating the unique beauty of the moment, letting it go and “MOVING ON”, they’ve instead promoted the mindset of ripping out the flower to prevent it dying, ruined its beauty by tearing it from the ground and pressing it into a book, and staring at it while other, more beautiful flowers grow and die outside, they themselves withering away with it.

------------------------------------------------------------- 5. We're not in Japan.

And while you are welcome to say “well in Japan they consider that romance”, we are not Japanese. This matters because while the game might be Japanese, our discussion is western, we are translating it to terms WE understand. We’re not talking about Japanese umbrella terms but whether something fits into OUR perception of romance. It’s like me asking if a certain character is another characters brother, and you explain to me that in japan it’s not strange to call a close male character “onii-san”. It’s great that they do so, but that’s not the spirit of the question, the question is asked from a western framework. Same is true here. By defending this version of the Cloud Aerith dynamic as counting as “romantic” you’ve essentially weakened your own argument, because in a way you are admitting that Aeriths arc doesn’t require her to be a romantic partner in the way we generally understand it for her character arc to function emotionally. And you are correct, welcome to Cloti, because this same understanding is what leads Clotis to see the story in a way where both Tifa and Aerith have their own unique “places” in the narratives rather than conflicting ones that require “several paths”. The game doesn’t need several paths, because the type of feelings shared between Aerith and Cloud are fundamentally not at conflict with the ones felt shared between Tifa and Cloud. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Conclusion:

Ultimately, if you want to mesh these more subtle concepts with the more explicit motifs in the story you again naturally emerge at a Cloud who, through a series of weird coincidences: at one point “had complicated ill-defined feelings for Aerith that he himself probably doesn’t even quite understand. But has now moved on with life, leaving that moment in time to shine as its own thing without it hindering his real life and family”.

It reminds me of the ending to Lord of the rings really, one could easily argue that Sam and Frodo had a version of this exact same Cloud Aerith bond (hell they even have famous handholding). Sam isn’t gay, but that doesn’t matter, he still loves Frodo in a spiritual sense. And in the end Frodo leaves, not just for himself, but also for Sam, because as Frodo so wisely realizes “My dear Sam, you cannot always be torn in two, you will have to be one, and whole for many years, you have so much to enjoy, and to be, and to do. Your part in this story will go on”. 

This is the exact same lesson you would HAVE to aim for if you want any sort of resolution to this story that does not fundamentally insult one part of your main cast. And everything we’ve seen from FFVII points to this indeed being the case. Hell, AC is the definition of this story. When Aerith and Zack walk into the light this is exactly the lesson Cloud is left with. There is no version of this story that would be thematically consistent and congruent that doesn’t end with Cloud fully devoting himself to his life with Tifa. 

The irony is that by insisting on framing Cloud and Aerith’s bond as “romance” despite its abstract nature, Clerith arguments end up undermining the very beauty of that bond. It becomes less about honoring a moment and more about trying to extend it beyond its thematic expiration date, like pressing the flower in a book rather than letting it fade naturally. The story doesn’t support the idea that Cloud remains torn forever. If anything, it's about moving on with life while cherishing what came before, and that’s what makes it meaningful. Cleriths want their cake and eat it too, they want Cloud and Aerith to have a spiritual bond that's above description....but they also want him to not be into Tifa and to see Aerith very specifically as his one true waifu.

[dutchdread]

Have you read the rebirth Ultimania? If you did, was there something you considerd interesting?

Nope, as far as I know the rebirth Ultimania won't have an english release, or atleast not any time soon, so all I've read are unofficial translations, translations that paraphrase the meaning, and a few translations I've done myself to check if something was accurate. But that's only for small parts since Japanese isn't exactly my native tongue or anywhere close to it. If it turns out that there won't be an english version forthcoming I will probably buy a japanese version though since it would be good training. Problem is people aren't allowed to just post fully translated pages for the ultimania, they're pretty serious when it comes to copyright concerning that stuff. Nothing I've seen so far has really surprised me though, it's basically the same stuff Clotis have been saying all the time. The most interesting thing that has come out to me is that they were hesitant to add an affection mechanic to rebirth. This may seem like a pretty throw-away line but it's actually pretty meaningful. For one it really hammers in the idea that you're not supposed to see this story as a choose your own adventure, they want it to be a single coherent story. And if they were already hesitant to add it to this part, where I think it makes by far the most sense to have one in there, then it gives me hope that there won't be an affection mechanic in part 3. And lets be honest, who do you think has more to fear from there not being an affection mechanic? Us or the Cleriths? I think that in their hearts Cleriths are secretly begging for the existence of an affection mechanic, while Clotis are openly hoping that there won't be one, that really tells you everything. Something that has gotten a lot of attention are the quotes surrounding the dates, where Cleriths have been jumping for joy at the idea that the dates aren't canon, and trying to twist that in something good for Clerith. This has been both intriguing and hilarious to watch. For years Cleriths have rallied around the date in the OG, and prior to the ultimania releasing they've been desperately trying convince the world that the Clerith date is canon and the Tifa kiss is meaningless fan-service. And now that the Ultimania has confirmed they are all equal they're suddenly trying to use that to undermine anything to do with the date XD Meanwhile Clotis went "actually, I think none of them are probably canon, more informative 'what-ifs' that are meant to illustrate Clouds relationship with the different characters". And when the Ultimania said essentially exactly the same thing Cleriths actually took that as a good thing. It's amazing how they can twist anything to fit their narrative, or rather, to not totally disprove it. These people actually took a quote talking about how all dates are equal, and tried using it to prove the dates weren't equal. The most fun part of this entire debate is to watch how over the years it slowly changed from Cleriths trying to attack, to Cleriths desperately trying to defend and explain why "we're not quite dead yet, we might be able to still make a move." It's no longer "Clerith is canon, here is why", no, now its "well, no, the kiss is optional, you don't have to see it, he also held Aeriths hand you know!!!!" They've been checkmated a dozen times already and are now just illegally jumping their king around the board erratically, pretending that they haven't lost.

[dutchdread]

Hi I'm not sure if you already answered this before, but do you like the ending of Rebirth? And how Aerith's death was played out? Why do you think Aerith's spirit lingered after her death? Was it to help Cloud cope or to make things worse for him? Sorry so many questions? 😅

There's a lot of questions but that's ok, as long as people don't mind that I probably won't get through them all since the long responses tend to take A LONG time to make, and I do actually have a life and hobbies, then people can keep sending em. If I really get overwhelmed I'll just close the inbox since I do prefer to write stuff that I can reuse. Which is sort of the case here, because yeah, I have addressed the ending, and no, I was not a fan. Really should make a single comprehensive review tbh.

Link

As for why Aeriths spirit lingers, it's hard to say, it's hard to even say if it is her spirit, we can't even be sure if every Aerith we see post death is the same Aerith, or even is Aerith in the first place. Could be Clouds mind coping and making something up. Could be a vision imparted by Sephiroth, could be anything, although I do think that Nanaki recognizing her in the ending cinematic is strong evidence for her actually being present. Now if that means her being present as a spirit, or present in another world, I could not tell you. I could not even tell you if there is a real difference between "existing in another world" and "being in the lifestream". That's the problem with making your story too convoluted, you are no longer able to effectively "read along" with the story, so you just have to accept whatever happens. There is no feeling of "ohhhh, so that's what's going on, duh", you instead get a sense of "ok, if you say that's whats happening I'll take your word for it". It's extremely unsatisfying, like bashing a puzzle into place with a hammer, sure you solved your complicated puzzle, but the only reason I was interested in the solution was because I though it was something clever that I should have been able to figure out myself. The one thing I can say is that despite all the grief Aerith gets from certain parts of the fandom (some of which deserved, some not) she's not intentionally trying to make things worse for Cloud. If Aerith is really there in body or spirit, and is fully able to exercise her own agency, then it's because she thinks that doing so will ultimately be for the best. She might be unsure of what to do, she might think that acting as though everything is alright is what is best for Clouds psyche, I don't know, but it's certain that she wants to help. My gut instinct is that this mirrors Aeriths attitude in the sleeping forest, she's realized how messed up Clouds psyche really is, and is trying to unburden Cloud the best she knows how. In the OG she tells him to go take care of himself and she'll go take care of Sephiroth, and here she takes a similar "it's all good, don't worry about me, I'll go stop meteor, you just go after Sephiroth ok?" attitude. The biggest question is why she specifically asks Cloud NOT to go after Sephiroth originally, but does an exact 180 here, but it could still be argued that the core of the message remains the same "don't take too much on your plate, you just focus on what you can focus on, and leave the rest to me". Hope that satisfied you, hard to answer things that are still this uncertain.

[dutchdread]

Hello Dutch! I hope your doing well.. So apparently some ppl interpret Zack gesture of having Aerith's ribbon tied to his hand as him taking back the ribbon that he gave to Aerith as a sign of him finally giving up on her & supporting Cloud & Aerith romance. May I know what is your stand on this?

Not worth commenting on. Lets be honest, this is delusional. "oh, little girl says my girlfriend likes my best mate now, despite that making no sense since as far as I know she's never met him, lets tie her ribbon around my hand in gesture of how ok I am with this, in fact, lets go find her to give her my blessing". Yeah, no, some takes aren't even worth dissecting and this is one of them.

[dutchdread]

Hi Dutch. Since you have answered many questions about Cloti, what is your thought about Zerith in Rebirth? I saw many people disappointed or having no hope for them but others said the devs are creating angst. Do you agree?

Hi, thanks for the question. Yeah, I understand being disappointed with the Zerith content in Rebirth. The developers spent a lot of time hyping up Zacks importance, not just with Remake but also with developer interviews and such. To have such a build-up and then have him relegated to just a few playable intermissions, to not get a Zack Aerith reunion, and depending on who you listen to to have him being brushed aside in favor of Cloud in regards to Aeriths affections, can understandably feel disheartening.

But really this is just a lack of understanding concerning story structure, to put it simply, Rebirth is EXTREMELY Zerith.

When reading Harry Potter I always knew that Snape was most likely going to end up a good guy, despite the seeming back and forths. And do you know which moment to me proved that he was a good guy? When he killed Dumbledore at the end of book 6. I knew then without a doubt that he was a good guy, because there was still one book to go, and it was obvious that that book would have the final ultimate reversal.

Rebirth didn't have a lot of Zerith pay-off, but if anything that's a good thing. If it did I would be worried about what would happen in part 3 to flip that pay-off on its head. Instead Zerith has gotten a lot of build-up that is now screaming to receive pay-off in part 3.

We have shots of Zack desperately trying to come back to Aerith. We have Aerith admitting she still has feelings for Zack. We have Aerith desperately trying to recreate her time with Zack. We have Tifa and Aerith talking about Zack. We have Aerith sensing Zacks touch in the cave of the GI. We have Aerith singing songs about meeting again. We have Aerith admitting to seeing Zack again in Cloud. We have Aerith instantly going to Zacks parents. We have Cloud talking about how Zack is head over heels for Aerith. We have Zack in Nibelheim talking to Cloud about their respective girlfriends

And the question you need to ask for all these things is "why?" Why would they include all these scenes if it's not getting a pay-off? Why show scenes of Aerith trying and failing to recreate her days with Zack interspersed with scenes of Zack trying to get back to her if that ultimately isn't of importance? Why show Zack positively contrasted with a negatively presented Cloud if the message you're trying to convey is that Zack has been replaced? Why show Zack to be an amazing guy if you want to end his arc with people being ok with him being rejected? Why make a themesong with the desire for meeting again at its core and have Zacks entire story in the game being about trying to reunite with Aerith if the point of that reunion is heartbreak?

The answer is that a writer wouldn't do those things, they make no sense. If you want your love story to feel positive then you need to disassemble the alternatives first. You need to show how the other pairings don't work, minimize their importance, or in some other way make it clear to the audience that the "main couple" coming together is the desirable outcome.

If you want to show that Aerith is getting over Zack you don't spend your limited screentime showing Aerith pining over Zack, you instead show how she's no longer occupying his mind as much. If you want to show Aerith getting over Zack you don't have her talking about still loving him, you instead have her talking about how she DID once, but that that was a long time ago. You don't end her arc with a date that remind the viewer of the existence of Zack, but one that is fully between Cloud and Aerith. If you want to show the compatibility of Cloud and Aerith then you don't make it so that everything goes wrong, you make it so that the dream date goes "DREAMY"!. And if you want to sell the idea that Aerith is over Zack and has come to the conclusion that she truly romantically loves Cloud then you DON'T place that confession right after said horrible date, with Zack scenes left right and center, a Cloud thats talking about you being "nakama", and Aerith dialogue that at best says she's not sure about what she feels, and at worst is a straight up friendzoning. If you want to replace a very positively portrayed romance then you will need the end all be all of chemistry and certainty in the new one, and talks about "well, I like you, but there is liking and then there's liking" is NOT a recipe for that.

In short, if you want to sell the idea that Cloud has truly replaced Zack in Aeriths heart and more importantly IN THE NARRATIVE, then you don't put emphasis on the existence of Aeriths feelings for Zack, and you don't put emphasis on Zacks feelings for Aerith. Those things all serve to maximize the connection between Aerith and Zack when what you need to do if you want to sell Clerith is minimize it. The reason being that this romance is in narrative conflict with the supposed Aerith Cloud romance, and the stronger the Aerith Zack connection is presented, the more extravagant the bond between Cloud and Aerith needs to be written for the story to make sense.

And that won't happen when you have Cloud deriding Aerith for the way she tries turning everything into a date the one moment, and then a scene showing Zack taking care of Aerith while in a coma the next. It doesn't happen when you show a scene of Cloud bonding with Tifa in one scene and almost kissing her, and then show Zack bonding with Aeriths mother in the next. It doesn't happen when you show Aerith failing to recreate her date with Zack and asking Cloud to find her in "her place", and then show Zack waiting for Aerith in "her place" the next.

All these things signal the same thing "Zack good for Aerith, Cloud bad".

You can extrapolate this idea beyond Rebirth of course. If Zack and Aerith isn't getting a pay-off what is the point of re-releasing Crisis Core before Rebirth? If the point is to show that Zack is no longer in the picture what is the point of showing off an entire game all about how important he and Aerith are to each other and about how desperate he is to get back to her? What is the point of showing that the bow Aerith is always wearing was gift from him. What is the point of her always wearing the clothes that she said she'd wear in anticipation of seeing him again. What is the point in bringing up the fact that she wrote Zack 89 letters and has been waiting for him for 5 years if Zack is replaceable in 2 weeks? What is the point of writing that Aeriths one wish is to spend more time with Zack if her literally spending time with a Zack stand-in isn't relevant? What is the point of writing it that Aerith didn't just see Zack in Cloud because they're similar...but because he's LITERALLY putting on a fake persona based on Zack, if Zacks presence in Clouds persona is irrelevant to Aeriths feelings regarding him?

If you want us to believe that Aerith likes Cloud for Cloud then these are all very questionable writing choices, especially when you also keep harping on about her wanting to get to know the real Cloud, which implies that she doesn't know him YET. It's not that you can't still have it so that Aerith does actually prefer Cloud despite all this, but if that's the case then you've failed as a writer because this would be VERY incoherent storytelling. If the writers want you to believe that Aerith has moved on from Zack, then they shouldn't and wouldn't have spend so much time showing Aerith not having moved on from Zack. Ultimately the question is one of focus, a story about Aerith falling in love with Cloud, and a story about moving on from Zack might look superficially similar, and entail the same basic events. But the difference is the focus. Is that focus on Cloud and what he means to Aerith? Or is the focus on Zack? In rebirth there is a heavy focus, not on the developing bond between Cloud and Aerith, those are limited almost exclusively to Tifa, but there is a heavy focus on Aeriths feelings in regards to Zack. There is no storytelling purpose to Aerith telling Cloud she still loves Zack 3/4ths of the way through her story if the focus of the story isn't Aeriths feelings for Zack, but her feelings for Cloud. If the writers wanted you to think Zack doesn't matter they wouldn't spend so much time hammering in the idea that Zack matters. These moments are all in service to Aerith and Zack, not Aerith and Cloud.

Even things like Zack discovering that Aerith has started developing feelings for Cloud only makes sense to include if the pay-off for that is them reuniting and him showing Aerith what love really is. So if we saw in Rebirth wasn't a "lack of Zerith", then what DID we see? Well, to reiterate what I said earlier:

If you want your love story to feel positive then you need to disassemble the alternatives first.

This is what we saw in Rebirth, Cloud and Aerith being disassembled, so that part 3 can get us to the pay-off. We see Cloud and Aerith bonding, yes, but it's ALWAYS contrasted with Tifa and Zack. If we have a scene where Aerith tries to engage Cloud in talks concerning food he will be shown to engage with the same discouraging passivity of the average woman on tinder, then that scene will invariably be followed by a similar scene with Tifa where he is enthusiastically trying to keep the conversation flowing. If we see a scene where Aerith is trying to get a certain energy from Cloud and failing, it won't be long till we see a scene of Zack having that same desired energy naturally.

In short, Rebirth was filled with scenes that "serve a purpose in the overall narrative". But the only way those scenes WOULD serve a purpose in the overall narrative, is if the overall narrative is: "Aerith is trying to get over Zack and is trying to move on through Cloud. But by doing so she discovers that it's just not the same. While Cloud helps Aerith move on and accept the past, he can never replace Zack". If the overall narrative is: "Aerith used to be pining over Zack, but now she has truly replaced Zack in her heart with Cloud and Zack is a relic of the past" then none of these scenes would make sense to include. You can also look at it like this, why didn't Rebirth have a Zerith Reunion scene? Because apparently that's too important of a scene to quickly tack on to the end of part 2. Nomura has already hinted at something very important to include in part 3 that wasn't in part 2, something that he thinks will make people very happy if done right. And I am pretty freaking confident that what he's talking about is the long-awaited Aerith - Zack reunion. And that is why this game is extremely favorable to Zerith, so be excited for part 3.

[dutchdread]

How do you interpret the Aerith date handhold and the ending handhold if not romantic?

For the first one Cloud is overtly unreceptive to Aeriths attempts at making the date romantic until Aerith literally asks Cloud to essentially play along until the ride is over, which he then does in a rather over the top way, as shown by the way they exit the gondola. We can see how Cloud would act naturally in a situation where he's genuinely romantically interested in his date with Tifa and it's noticeably different. That is essentially the Cloud Aerith is trying to get out in the open, but she can't. In this scene Aerith has opened her heart concerning Zack and is clearly going through a range of emotions and after Aerith asks him to play along he tries comforting her by indulging her. Remember, while Cloud isn't romantically interested in Aerith he still considered her a dear friend, he almost acts brotherly here I'd say.

The ending is slightly different, but not that much. Hell, the entire segment again starts with Aerith asking Cloud to play along. First I need to point out though, they didn't hold hands, Cloud held hands with a spirit or something similar, and yes that does matter. Reason being that this entire interaction must be viewed in the context of this spiritual dreamlike state. This is a spiritual connection, not a physical one. Before this Aerith and Cloud have essentially confirmed what they mean to each other, they're very important to each other, but they're not "like that". Their bond here is more spiritual than sexual or romantic, and that's what the handholding signifies, it's essentially a symbol for platonic love. The better question you should ask yourself is, if Aerith is supposed to be romantic, why did Tifa get a kiss and not her? Aerith is dying any way, if the developers wanted to make Aerith the intended love interest, or even if they wanted to make it players choice, they could have easily given Cloud and Aerith a kiss. It would have made it a bit awkward when Cloud gets with Tifa after the lifestream sequence, but with some work you could use his fake persona and memory loss to write it in a way where Cloud doesn't come across as a total dirtbag. Can't do the same in reverse though. A Cloud that kisses Tifa but then holds hands with Aerith would be an extremely problematic MC if the handholding is supposed to be a romantic gesture. Essentially you'd be saying that there is a version of this story where our heroic MC is cheating. I know that IRL a kiss doesn't equal a relationship, but remember, this isn't IRL, this is a story. If Cloud kisses his childhood friend, which in many playthroughs he does, and then without ever addressing it with her starts performing romantic acts with another woman then we have an issue. A kiss is not a sign just of love, but a very specific kind, one with urges and desires. It's exactly that thing that Cloud and Aerith lack. Cloud and Tifa get the romantic sexual signifier of love, because that's how they love each other, romantically. Aerith and Cloud get the platonic gesture of love, because that's how they love each other, symbolically, perhaps even spiritually, but platonically. Which is why the handholding is not a betrayal of Tifa, for exactly the same reason it wasn't a betrayal of my girlfriend when I held my grandmothers hand when SHE was dying, because that was the type of love being displayed.

Thanks for the question.

[dutchdread]

.... is this person serious or is it a parody on dumb things Cleriths say?

[dutchdread]

From one of your answer: "Personally I think that while Cloud is totally unsure of who or what he is, that he is 100% aware that he deeply loves Tifa, even at the start of Remake."

I'd love to see you talk more about this. Do you think that, while he's aware that he loves her, does he remember that he's has been loving her ever since they were young?

Now I haven't played Rebirth (but I spoiled myself a lot). But from Remake and what I gather, I personally think he doesn't remember, or be aware of his feelings. However, I think that he's unconsciously and instinctively attracted to her as well as be protective of her, at least from the beginning of Remake. He can't exactly define his feeling, but he knows what he wants to do with her (getting jealous, being touchy-touchy, being protective). Then he grows to realize his feeling all over again over the course of the game, without even remember he has always been in love with her this whole time.

Also, as far as I know, Cloud isn't the type who ponders "what is this ache in my heart?". He's the man of action. He cares for Tifa and wants to do things for Tifa, regardless of whatever he feels for her is called a crush, infatuation, or love.

But that's my take. And I'd like to hear yours :D

I have to preface this by saying that this is 100% conjecture. My hope is that this is essentially exactly the question that we get answered in part 3, because it is something I really wonder about myself. Hell it might be the thing I am MOST curious to know. So when I give my thought on this, know that it I think it really is up in the air and could go either way, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if this is left up to interpretation. There are things that I think Cloud legitimately doesn't know. His confusion about Nibelheim for instance is 100% unfaked. But when Tifa asks him where he was these past 5 years and he responds with "you know I can't tell you that", what was that? Was that a straight up lie? I think it's clear he doesn't know where he was these past years. But does he know that he doesn't know where he was? And did he lie to hide that fact? If he simply had no recollections of the past 5 years but is otherwise mostly lucid then he could have simply answered "that's odd, I don't remember".

But he doesn't, either the Jenova cells are directly influencing him to lie or causing him to make up an excuse to change the subject. Regardless he's actively avoiding recognizing an issue that should be interesting to him "why don't I know where I was". But then in Gongaga we have Cloud admitting that he doesn't know stuff that he's supposed to know. That implies that it's not just Jenova forcing him to be unaware of the inconsistencies in his memory. He himself has been CHOOSING to hide some of them. The reason I bring this up is because there is something we have to ask ourselves. Is Cloud 100% genuinely trying to play out a personality that was not inherently his? Or does he only have a bunch of messed up memories, but is intentionally trying to play up that persona? Or something in the middle? I'd guess it's something in the middle, which explains a lot of the changes we see in his behavior based on who he is talking to. That means that when he says stuff like "Don't remember" when Yuffie asks him whether or not he used to be in love with Tifa. That could very easily be a bold faced lie. He could have all his messed up memories and still remember vividly why he wanted to be a soldier in the first place. Which is essentially what happens in the lifestream, HE tells Tifa why he did those things, HE knows when she does not, thereby proving those memories and those feelings could not have come from her. So it could easily be that Cloud, during remake and remake, not only realizes that he loves Tifa, but be aware that he was once a shy dorky kid who just wanted Tifa to notice him, and is still "internally screaming" anytime Tifa is near, but is desperate not to show that side of him to the outside world. Or it could of course be possible that he's completely blocked those embarrassing memories and feelings off even from himself and that his Soldier persona is completely genuine and that his fondness for Tifa in remake and Rebirth is just the result of that Love still simply being a part of him, even if he himself doesn't totally understand why. And that his real self only comes out during glimpses. We have quotes to corroborate this, but it's not that clear whether that means his true personality coming out means he's showing his real thoughts for once rather than acting, or that it means that his real personality literally takes over for a bit from his fake one. Again, I think the truth is in the middle. I especially wonder about this when Cloud sits down on the water tower next to Aerith. He very poignantly leaves Tifas house for last, and sits down looking at it directly. To me it feels like in that moment he is completely aware of why he did that, and is putting on a cool act when saying "sounds like something I'd do". I think that was one of the most telling scenes in the game, which on second playthrough post LS, will feel extremely telling. You will see him sitting there, and you'll know. "you mother fucker, you know EXACTLY that you did that and why, we know what you're thinking! XD" At the very least I feel like the scene was intentionally directed to strongly give off the impression that Cloud there is actively aware of what Tifa means to him, and is in that moment the same boy that would gaze at Tifa all those years back, putting up a cool guy act, but still with all his unspoken thoughts being about how this is all for her. Good question, I wish I had a better answer for you, but I think this one one of those times where speculating about the answer might be half the fun.

[dutchdread]

Do you think the developers are intentionally trying to annoy cleriths or does it just seem that way?

Just seems that way, I doubt they'd try to piss people off intentionally. It's just that the developers, while they might give the fans SOME fan-service as long as it fits within the story, will tell the story they want to tell. The story they want to tell is NOT the story that Cleriths want them to tell. Therefore, they will be annoyed. Clerith goes against everything that happens in the story, that's why everything in the story seems like it's almost designed to prove them wrong. I will say one thing though, I do sometimes wonder if the marketing isn't deliberately deceiving, because they do seem to love to overplay Aerith in the marketing compared to the actual product, which would obviously piss Cleriths off. I think it's just because the marketing team is probably pretty self-governing and decides what to show based on what sells. And Clerith is easy to sell for the same reason that so many people still adhere to it. It's a simple childish story that even an idiot could get. "dude meets cute, falls in love, cute girl dies, TRAGIC!!!!" Easy 10 word synopsis that can be easily packaged and sold to the masses. Nuance and complexity comes later.

[dutchdread]

Hey Dutch what is your opinion on crises core reunion ? I had few ca tell me it didn’t do anything for zack and aerith relationship it just made things worse ? I don’t know we’re they get that belief from but it’s there opinion. Did you think the story was ok and gave good context on what they mean to each other?

People give too much flack to Crisis Core. I only played the original CC back on the PSP so I can't say anything about whether or not Reunion made it better or worse, but I enjoyed the original. But part of that is because I simply had lower expectations for portable games than I do for AAA pc or console titles. I won't deny that the game has a bunch of stuff that could have been done better (Cough, genesis, cough), but it had its strong points as well. I think some of the basic concepts of Crisis Core are good in principle, like theme of hopes and dreams, and watching how Zack through adversity unwillingly becomes the hero that he always wanted to be. But the execution was often lacking. I love the idea of watching a several friends slowly break, and I think there is potential in tying that story into them being "monsters" and exploring what it really means to be a monster vs being a hero. But again. The way it was handled made it rather ridiculous and overly obtuse. The constant quoting of Loveless, ESPECIALLY without it ever getting a clear meaning that allows the player to connect with it, Angeals random dramatic self-pity, and a bunch of other stuff just made it so that storywise a lot of the bad overshadowed the good. But I played CC for Zack and Aerith, and they were perfect in my opinion.I loved seeing Aerith like an actual 16 year old girl and how her time with Zack rubbed off on her and caused her to start living every day to the fullest. I still think that the scene with Aerith hugging Zack from behind is one of the most romantic scenes in FF, simply because of how viscerally real it is. Her trying to make small talk, him just being there, choosing to mourn in the presence of the woman he loves, not needing to be consoled, but just needing her presence. And then that hug "sometimes you don't need words to tell a person how you're feeling" indeed. This is also a part of the reason I am convinced Aerith was still projecting Zack onto Cloud at the end of Rebirth "our place", "the church", Yeah right. For Cloud and Aerith the church is just a place they happened to spend about 5 minutes at one point, not even the place they met. Meanwhile Zack went there to see her for I think about one and a half years. He goes there instantly in intergrade, he goes there in Rebirth, we see him waiting there for Aerith at the end of rebirth, the core visual for Crisis core was changed to TAKE PLACE IN THE CHURCH. But the Church is Cloud and Aeriths place.....yeah right. Either that is an intentional hint that Aerith is still projecting, or the writing has fallen off a cliff. Then we have the other character moments, Cloud and Tifa pining for each other, the parallels between Cloti and Zerith. Zack promising Aerith he'll come for her underneath the water tower. And my favorite Aeriths "23 tiny little wishes", all encompassed in the one with to "spend more time with Zack". Which is then ultimately fulfilled via Cloud in the OG/rebirth. And then of course there is the ending, my favorite ending of any game ever aside from Nier:Automata. Man I bawled my eyes out. So yeah, I like Crisis Core, it's messy, but it's messy with a lot of gold in it, and for a portable title I think that's not half bad.