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[dutchdread]

Have you read the rebirth Ultimania? If you did, was there something you considerd interesting?

Nope, as far as I know the rebirth Ultimania won't have an english release, or atleast not any time soon, so all I've read are unofficial translations, translations that paraphrase the meaning, and a few translations I've done myself to check if something was accurate. But that's only for small parts since Japanese isn't exactly my native tongue or anywhere close to it. If it turns out that there won't be an english version forthcoming I will probably buy a japanese version though since it would be good training. Problem is people aren't allowed to just post fully translated pages for the ultimania, they're pretty serious when it comes to copyright concerning that stuff. Nothing I've seen so far has really surprised me though, it's basically the same stuff Clotis have been saying all the time. The most interesting thing that has come out to me is that they were hesitant to add an affection mechanic to rebirth. This may seem like a pretty throw-away line but it's actually pretty meaningful. For one it really hammers in the idea that you're not supposed to see this story as a choose your own adventure, they want it to be a single coherent story. And if they were already hesitant to add it to this part, where I think it makes by far the most sense to have one in there, then it gives me hope that there won't be an affection mechanic in part 3. And lets be honest, who do you think has more to fear from there not being an affection mechanic? Us or the Cleriths? I think that in their hearts Cleriths are secretly begging for the existence of an affection mechanic, while Clotis are openly hoping that there won't be one, that really tells you everything. Something that has gotten a lot of attention are the quotes surrounding the dates, where Cleriths have been jumping for joy at the idea that the dates aren't canon, and trying to twist that in something good for Clerith. This has been both intriguing and hilarious to watch. For years Cleriths have rallied around the date in the OG, and prior to the ultimania releasing they've been desperately trying convince the world that the Clerith date is canon and the Tifa kiss is meaningless fan-service. And now that the Ultimania has confirmed they are all equal they're suddenly trying to use that to undermine anything to do with the date XD Meanwhile Clotis went "actually, I think none of them are probably canon, more informative 'what-ifs' that are meant to illustrate Clouds relationship with the different characters". And when the Ultimania said essentially exactly the same thing Cleriths actually took that as a good thing. It's amazing how they can twist anything to fit their narrative, or rather, to not totally disprove it. These people actually took a quote talking about how all dates are equal, and tried using it to prove the dates weren't equal. The most fun part of this entire debate is to watch how over the years it slowly changed from Cleriths trying to attack, to Cleriths desperately trying to defend and explain why "we're not quite dead yet, we might be able to still make a move." It's no longer "Clerith is canon, here is why", no, now its "well, no, the kiss is optional, you don't have to see it, he also held Aeriths hand you know!!!!" They've been checkmated a dozen times already and are now just illegally jumping their king around the board erratically, pretending that they haven't lost.

[dutchdread]

Hi I'm not sure if you already answered this before, but do you like the ending of Rebirth? And how Aerith's death was played out? Why do you think Aerith's spirit lingered after her death? Was it to help Cloud cope or to make things worse for him? Sorry so many questions? 😅

There's a lot of questions but that's ok, as long as people don't mind that I probably won't get through them all since the long responses tend to take A LONG time to make, and I do actually have a life and hobbies, then people can keep sending em. If I really get overwhelmed I'll just close the inbox since I do prefer to write stuff that I can reuse. Which is sort of the case here, because yeah, I have addressed the ending, and no, I was not a fan. Really should make a single comprehensive review tbh.

Link

As for why Aeriths spirit lingers, it's hard to say, it's hard to even say if it is her spirit, we can't even be sure if every Aerith we see post death is the same Aerith, or even is Aerith in the first place. Could Clouds mind coping and making something up. Could be an vision imparted by Sephiroth, could be anything, although I do think that Nanaki recognizing her in the ending cinematic is strong evidence for her actually being present. Now if that means her being present as a spirit, or present in another world, I could not tell you. I could not even tell you if there is a real difference between "existing in another world" and "being in the lifestream". That's the problem with making your story too convoluted, you are no longer able to effectively "read along" with the story, so you just have to accept whatever happens. There is no feeling of "ohhhh, so that's what's going on, duh", you instead get a sense of "ok, if you say that's whats happening I'll take your word for it". It's extremely unsatisfying, like bashing a puzzle into place with a hammer, sure you solved your complicated puzzle, but the only reason I was interested in the solution was because I though it was something clever that I should have been able to figure out myself. The one thing I can say is that despite all the grief Aerith gets from certain parts of the fandom (some of which deserved, some not) she's not intentionally trying to make things worse for Cloud. If Aerith is really there in body or spirit, and is fully able to exercise her own agency, then it's because she thinks that doing so will ultimately be for the best. She might be unsure of what to do, she might think that acting as though everything is alright is what is best for Clouds psyche, I don't know, but it's certain that she wants to help. My gut instinct is that this mirrors Aeriths attitude in the sleeping forest, she's realizes how messed up Clouds psyche really is, and is trying to unburden Cloud best she knows how. In the OG she tells him to go take care of himself and she'll go take care of Sephiroth, and here she takes a similar "it's all good, don't worry about me, I'll go stop meteor, you just go after Sephiroth ok?" attitude. The biggest question is why she specifically asks Cloud NOT to go after Sephiroth originally, but does an exact 180 here, but it could still be argued that the core of the message remains the same "don't take too much on your plate, you just focus on what you can focus on, and leave the rest to me". Hope that satisfied you, hard to answer things that are still this uncertain.

[dutchdread]

Hello Dutch! I hope your doing well.. So apparently some ppl interpret Zack gesture of having Aerith's ribbon tied to his hand as him taking back the ribbon that he gave to Aerith as a sign of him finally giving up on her & supporting Cloud & Aerith romance. May I know what is your stand on this?

Not worth commenting on. Lets be honest, this is delusional. "oh, little girl says my girlfriend likes my best mate now, despite that making no sense since as far as I know she's never met him, lets tie her ribbon around my hand in gesture of how ok I am with this, in fact, lets go find her to give her my blessing". Yeah, no, some takes aren't even worth dissecting and this is one of them.

[dutchdread]

Hi Dutch. Since you have answered many questions about Cloti, what is your thought about Zerith in Rebirth? I saw many people disappointed or having no hope for them but others said the devs are creating angst. Do you agree?

Hi, thanks for the question. Yeah, I understand being disappointed with the Zerith content in Rebirth. The developers spent a lot of time hyping up Zacks importance, not just with Remake but also with developer interviews and such. To have such a build-up and then have him relegated to just a few playable intermissions, to not get a Zack Aerith reunion, and depending on who you listen to to have him being brushed aside in favor of Cloud in regards to Aeriths affections, can understandably feel disheartening.

But really this is just a lack of understanding concerning story structure, to put it simply, Rebirth is EXTREMELY Zerith.

When reading Harry Potter I always knew that Snape was most likely going to end up a good guy, despite the seeming back and forths. And do you know which moment to me proved that he was a good guy? When he killed Dumbledore at the end of book 6. I knew then without a doubt that he was a good guy, because there was still one book to go, and it was obvious that that book would have the final ultimate reversal.

Rebirth didn't have a lot of Zerith pay-off, but if anything that's a good thing. If it did I would be worried about what would happen in part 3 to flip that pay-off on its head. Instead Zerith has gotten a lot of build-up that is now screaming to receive pay-off in part 3.

We have shots of Zack desperately trying to come back to Aerith. We have Aerith admitting she still has feelings for Zack. We have Aerith desperately trying to recreate her time with Zack. We have Tifa and Aerith talking about Zack. We have Aerith sensing Zacks touch in the cave of the GI. We have Aerith singing songs about meeting again. We have Aerith admitting to seeing Zack again in Cloud. We have Aerith instantly going to Zacks parents. We have Cloud talking about how Zack is head over heels for Aerith. We have Zack in Nibelheim talking to Cloud about their respective girlfriends

And the question you need to ask for all these things is "why?" Why would they include all these scenes if it's not getting a pay-off? Why show scenes of Aerith trying and failing to recreate her days with Zack interspersed with scenes of Zack trying to get back to her if that ultimately isn't of importance? Why show Zack positively contrasted with a negatively presented Cloud if the message you're trying to convey is that Zack has been replaced? Why show Zack to be an amazing guy if you want to end his arc with people being ok with him being rejected? Why make a themesong with the desire for meeting again at its core and have Zacks entire story in the game being about trying to reunite with Aerith if the point of that reunion is heartbreak?

The answer is that a writer wouldn't do those things, they make no sense. If you want your love story to feel positive then you need to disassemble the alternatives first. You need to show how the other pairings don't work, minimize their importance, or in some other way make it clear to the audience that the "main couple" coming together is the desirable outcome.

If you want to show that Aerith is getting over Zack you don't spend your limited screentime showing Aerith pining over Zack, you instead show how she's no longer occupying his mind as much. If you want to show Aerith getting over Zack you don't have her talking about still loving him, you instead have her talking about how she DID once, but that that was a long time ago. You don't end her arc with a date that remind the viewer of the existence of Zack, but one that is fully between Cloud and Aerith. If you want to show the compatibility of Cloud and Aerith then you don't make it so that everything goes wrong, you make it so that the dream date goes "DREAMY"!. And if you want to sell the idea that Aerith is over Zack and has come to the conclusion that she truly romantically loves Cloud then you DON'T place that confession right after said horrible date, with Zack scenes left right and center, a Cloud thats talking about you being "nakama", and Aerith dialogue that at best says she's not sure about what she feels, and at worst is a straight up friendzoning. If you want to replace a very positively portrayed romance then you will need the end all be all of chemistry and certainty in the new one, and talks about "well, I like you, but there is liking and then there's liking" is NOT a recipe for that.

In short, if you want to sell the idea that Cloud has truly replaced Zack in Aeriths heart and more importantly IN THE NARRATIVE, then you don't put emphasis on the existence of Aeriths feelings for Zack, and you don't put emphasis on Zacks feelings for Aerith. Those things all serve to maximize the connection between Aerith and Zack when what you need to do if you want to sell Clerith is minimize it. The reason being that this romance is in narrative conflict with the supposed Aerith Cloud romance, and the stronger the Aerith Zack connection is presented, the more extravagant the bond between Cloud and Aerith needs to be written for the story to make sense.

And that won't happen when you have Cloud deriding Aerith for the way she tries turning everything into a date the one moment, and then a scene showing Zack taking care of Aerith while in a coma the next. It doesn't happen when you show a scene of Cloud bonding with Tifa in one scene and almost kissing her, and then show Zack bonding with Aeriths mother in the next. It doesn't happen when you show Aerith failing to recreate her date with Zack and asking Cloud to find her in "her place", and then show Zack waiting for Aerith in "her place" the next.

All these things signal the same thing "Zack good for Aerith, Cloud bad".

You can extrapolate this idea beyond Rebirth of course. If Zack and Aerith isn't getting a pay-off what is the point of re-releasing Crisis Core before Rebirth? If the point is to show that Zack is no longer in the picture what is the point of showing off an entire game all about how important he and Aerith are to each other and about how desperate he is to get back to her? What is the point of showing that the bow Aerith is always wearing was gift from him. What is the point of her always wearing the clothes that she said she'd wear in anticipation of seeing him again. What is the point in bringing up the fact that she wrote Zack 89 letters and has been waiting for him for 5 years if Zack is replaceable in 2 weeks? What is the point of writing that Aeriths one wish is to spend more time with Zack if her literally spending time with a Zack stand-in isn't relevant? What is the point of writing it that Aerith didn't just see Zack in Cloud because they're similar...but because he's LITERALLY putting on a fake persona based on Zack, if Zacks presence in Clouds persona is irrelevant to Aeriths feelings regarding him?

If you want us to believe that Aerith likes Cloud for Cloud then these are all very questionable writing choices, especially when you also keep harping on about her wanting to get to know the real Cloud, which implies that she doesn't know him YET. It's not that you can't still have it so that Aerith does actually prefer Cloud despite all this, but if that's the case then you've failed as a writer because this would be VERY incoherent storytelling. If the writers want you to believe that Aerith has moved on from Zack, then they shouldn't and wouldn't have spend so much time showing Aerith not having moved on from Zack. Ultimately the question is one of focus, a story about Aerith falling in love with Cloud, and a story about moving on from Zack might look superficially similar, and entail the same basic events. But the difference is the focus. Is that focus on Cloud and what he means to Aerith? Or is the focus on Zack? In rebirth there is a heavy focus, not on the developing bond between Cloud and Aerith, those are limited almost exclusively to Tifa, but there is a heavy focus on Aeriths feelings in regards to Zack. There is no storytelling purpose to Aerith telling Cloud she still loves Zack 3/4ths of the way through her story if the focus of the story isn't Aeriths feelings for Zack, but her feelings for Cloud. If the writers wanted you to think Zack doesn't matter they wouldn't spend so much time hammering in the idea that Zack matters. These moments are all in service to Aerith and Zack, not Aerith and Cloud.

Even things like Zack discovering that Aerith has started developing feelings for Cloud only makes sense to include if the pay-off for that is them reuniting and him showing Aerith what love really is. So if we saw in Rebirth wasn't a "lack of Zerith", then what DID we see? Well, to reiterate what I said earlier:

If you want your love story to feel positive then you need to disassemble the alternatives first.

This is what we saw in Rebirth, Cloud and Aerith being disassembled, so that part 3 can get us to the pay-off. We see Cloud and Aerith bonding, yes, but it's ALWAYS contrasted with Tifa and Zack. If we have a scene where Aerith tries to engage Cloud in talks concerning food he will be shown to engage with the same discouraging passivity of the average woman on tinder, then that scene will invariably be followed by a similar scene with Tifa where he is enthusiastically trying to keep the conversation flowing. If we see a scene where Aerith is trying to get a certain energy from Cloud and failing, it won't be long till we see a scene of Zack having that same desired energy naturally.

In short, Rebirth was filled with scenes that "serve a purpose in the overall narrative". But the only way those scenes WOULD serve a purpose in the overall narrative, is if the overall narrative is: "Aerith is trying to get over Zack and is trying to move on through Cloud. But by doing so she discovers that it's just not the same. While Cloud helps Aerith move on and accept the past, he can never replace Zack". If the overall narrative is: "Aerith used to be pining over Zack, but now she has truly replaced Zack in her heart with Cloud and Zack is a relic of the past" then none of these scenes would make sense to include. You can also look at it like this, why didn't Rebirth have a Zerith Reunion scene? Because apparently that's too important of a scene to quickly tack on to the end of part 2. Nomura has already hinted at something very important to include in part 3 that wasn't in part 2, something that he thinks will make people very happy if done right. And I am pretty freaking confident that what he's talking about is the long-awaited Aerith - Zack reunion. And that is why this game is extremely favorable to Zerith, so be excited for part 3.

[dutchdread]

How do you interpret the Aerith date handhold and the ending handhold if not romantic?

For the first one Cloud is overtly unreceptive to Aeriths attempts at making the date romantic until Aerith literally asks Cloud to essentially play along until the ride is over, which he then does in a rather over the top way, as shown by the way they exit the gondola. We can see how Cloud would act naturally in a situation where he's genuinely romantically interested in his date with Tifa and it's noticeably different. That is essentially the Cloud Aerith is trying to get out in the open, but she can't. In this scene Aerith has opened her heart concerning Zack and is clearly going through a range of emotions and after Aerith asks him to play along he tries comforting her by indulging her. Remember, while Cloud isn't romantically interested in Aerith he still considered her a dear friend, he almost acts brotherly here I'd say.

The ending is slightly different, but not that much. Hell, the entire segment again starts with Aerith asking Cloud to play along. First I need to point out though, they didn't hold hands, Cloud held hands with a spirit or something similar, and yes that does matter. Reason being that this entire interaction must be viewed in the context of this spiritual dreamlike state. This is a spiritual connection, not a physical one. Before this Aerith and Cloud have essentially confirmed what they mean to each other, they're very important to each other, but they're not "like that". Their bond here is more spiritual than sexual or romantic, and that's what the handholding signifies, it's essentially a symbol for platonic love. The better question you should ask yourself is, if Aerith is supposed to be romantic, why did Tifa get a kiss and not her? Aerith is dying any way, if the developers wanted to make Aerith the intended love interest, or even if they wanted to make it players choice, they could have easily given Cloud and Aerith a kiss. It would have made it a bit awkward when Cloud gets with Tifa after the lifestream sequence, but with some work you could use his fake persona and memory loss to write it in a way where Cloud doesn't come across as a total dirtbag. Can't do the same in reverse though. A Cloud that kisses Tifa but then holds hands with Aerith would be an extremely problematic MC if the handholding is supposed to be a romantic gesture. Essentially you'd be saying that there is a version of this story where our heroic MC is cheating. I know that IRL a kiss doesn't equal a relationship, but remember, this isn't IRL, this is a story. If Cloud kisses his childhood friend, which in many playthroughs he does, and then without ever addressing it with her starts performing romantic acts with another woman then we have an issue. A kiss is not a sign just of love, but a very specific kind, one with urges and desires. It's exactly that thing that Cloud and Aerith lack. Cloud and Tifa get the romantic sexual signifier of love, because that's how they love each other, romantically. Aerith and Cloud get the platonic gesture of love, because that's how they love each other, symbolically, perhaps even spiritually, but platonically. Which is why the handholding is not a betrayal of Tifa, for exactly the same reason it wasn't a betrayal of my girlfriend when I held my grandmothers hand when SHE was dying, because that was the type of love being displayed.

Thanks for the question.

[dutchdread]

.... is this person serious or is it a parody on dumb things Cleriths say?

[dutchdread]

From one of your answer: "Personally I think that while Cloud is totally unsure of who or what he is, that he is 100% aware that he deeply loves Tifa, even at the start of Remake."

I'd love to see you talk more about this. Do you think that, while he's aware that he loves her, does he remember that he's has been loving her ever since they were young?

Now I haven't played Rebirth (but I spoiled myself a lot). But from Remake and what I gather, I personally think he doesn't remember, or be aware of his feelings. However, I think that he's unconsciously and instinctively attracted to her as well as be protective of her, at least from the beginning of Remake. He can't exactly define his feeling, but he knows what he wants to do with her (getting jealous, being touchy-touchy, being protective). Then he grows to realize his feeling all over again over the course of the game, without even remember he has always been in love with her this whole time.

Also, as far as I know, Cloud isn't the type who ponders "what is this ache in my heart?". He's the man of action. He cares for Tifa and wants to do things for Tifa, regardless of whatever he feels for her is called a crush, infatuation, or love.

But that's my take. And I'd like to hear yours :D

I have to preface this by saying that this is 100% conjecture. My hope is that this is essentially exactly the question that we get answered in part 3, because it is something I really wonder about myself. Hell it might be the thing I am MOST curious to know. So when I give my thought on this, know that it I think it really is up in the air and could go either way, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if this is left up to interpretation. There are things that I think Cloud legitimately doesn't know. His confusion about Nibelheim for instance is 100% unfaked. But when Tifa asks him where he was these past 5 years and he responds with "you know I can't tell you that", what was that? Was that a straight up lie? I think it's clear he doesn't know where he was these past years. But does he know that he doesn't know where he was? And did he lie to hide that fact? If he simply had no recollections of the past 5 years but is otherwise mostly lucid then he could have simply answered "that's odd, I don't remember".

But he doesn't, either the Jenova cells are directly influencing him to lie or causing him to make up an excuse to change the subject. Regardless he's actively avoiding recognizing an issue that should be interesting to him "why don't I know where I was". But then in Gongaga we have Cloud admitting that he doesn't know stuff that he's supposed to know. That implies that it's not just Jenova forcing him to be unaware of the inconsistencies in his memory. He himself has been CHOOSING to hide some of them. The reason I bring this up is because there is something we have to ask ourselves. Is Cloud 100% genuinely trying to play out a personality that was not inherently his? Or does he only have a bunch of messed up memories, but is intentionally trying to play up that persona? Or something in the middle? I'd guess it's something in the middle, which explains a lot of the changes we see in his behavior based on who he is talking to. That means that when he says stuff like "Don't remember" when Yuffie asks him whether or not he used to be in love with Tifa. That could very easily be a bold faced lie. He could have all his messed up memories and still remember vividly why he wanted to be a soldier in the first place. Which is essentially what happens in the lifestream, HE tells Tifa why he did those things, HE knows when she does not, thereby proving those memories and those feelings could not have come from her. So it could easily be that Cloud, during remake and remake, not only realizes that he loves Tifa, but be aware that he was once a shy dorky kid who just wanted Tifa to notice him, and is still "internally screaming" anytime Tifa is near, but is desperate not to show that side of him to the outside world. Or it could of course be possible that he's completely blocked those embarrassing memories and feelings off even from himself and that his Soldier persona is completely genuine and that his fondness for Tifa in remake and Rebirth is just the result of that Love still simply being a part of him, even if he himself doesn't totally understand why. And that his real self only comes out during glimpses. We have quotes to corroborate this, but it's not that clear whether that means his true personality coming out means he's showing his real thoughts for once rather than acting, or that it means that his real personality literally takes over for a bit from his fake one. Again, I think the truth is in the middle. I especially wonder about this when Cloud sits down on the water tower next to Aerith. He very poignantly leaves Tifas house for last, and sits down looking at it directly. To me it feels like in that moment he is completely aware of why he did that, and is putting on a cool act when saying "sounds like something I'd do". I think that was one of the most telling scenes in the game, which on second playthrough post LS, will feel extremely telling. You will see him sitting there, and you'll know. "you mother fucker, you know EXACTLY that you did that and why, we know what you're thinking! XD" At the very least I feel like the scene was intentionally directed to strongly give off the impression that Cloud there is actively aware of what Tifa means to him, and is in that moment the same boy that would gaze at Tifa all those years back, putting up a cool guy act, but still with all his unspoken thoughts being about how this is all for her. Good question, I wish I had a better answer for you, but I think this one one of those times where speculating about the answer might be half the fun.

[dutchdread]

Do you think the developers are intentionally trying to annoy cleriths or does it just seem that way?

Just seems that way, I doubt they'd try to piss people off intentionally. It's just that the developers, while they might give the fans SOME fan-service as long as it fits within the story, will tell the story they want to tell. The story they want to tell is NOT the story that Cleriths want them to tell. Therefore, they will be annoyed. Clerith goes against everything that happens in the story, that's why everything in the story seems like it's almost designed to prove them wrong. I will say one thing though, I do sometimes wonder if the marketing isn't deliberately deceiving, because they do seem to love to overplay Aerith in the marketing compared to the actual product, which would obviously piss Cleriths off. I think it's just because the marketing team is probably pretty self-governing and decides what to show based on what sells. And Clerith is easy to sell for the same reason that so many people still adhere to it. It's a simple childish story that even an idiot could get. "dude meets cute, falls in love, cute girl dies, TRAGIC!!!!" Easy 10 word synopsis that can be easily packaged and sold to the masses. Nuance and complexity comes later.

[dutchdread]

Hey Dutch what is your opinion on crises core reunion ? I had few ca tell me it didn’t do anything for zack and aerith relationship it just made things worse ? I don’t know we’re they get that belief from but it’s there opinion. Did you think the story was ok and gave good context on what they mean to each other?

People give too much flack to Crisis Core. I only played the original CC back on the PSP so I can't say anything about whether or not Reunion made it better or worse, but I enjoyed the original. But part of that is because I simply had lower expectations for portable games than I do for AAA pc or console titles. I won't deny that the game has a bunch of stuff that could have been done better (Cough, genesis, cough), but it had its strong points as well. I think some of the basic concepts of Crisis Core are good in principle, like theme of hopes and dreams, and watching how Zack through adversity unwillingly becomes the hero that he always wanted to be. But the execution was often lacking. I love the idea of watching a several friends slowly break, and I think there is potential in tying that story into them being "monsters" and exploring what it really means to be a monster vs being a hero. But again. The way it was handled made it rather ridiculous and overly obtuse. The constant quoting of Loveless, ESPECIALLY without it ever getting a clear meaning that allows the player to connect with it, Angeals random dramatic self-pity, and a bunch of other stuff just made it so that storywise a lot of the bad overshadowed the good. But I played CC for Zack and Aerith, and they were perfect in my opinion.I loved seeing Aerith like an actual 16 year old girl and how her time with Zack rubbed off on her and caused her to start living every day to the fullest. I still think that the scene with Aerith hugging Zack from behind is one of the most romantic scenes in FF, simply because of how viscerally real it is. Her trying to make small talk, him just being there, choosing to mourn in the presence of the woman he loves, not needing to be consoled, but just needing her presence. And then that hug "sometimes you don't need words to tell a person how you're feeling" indeed. This is also a part of the reason I am convinced Aerith was still projecting Zack onto Cloud at the end of Rebirth "our place", "the church", Yeah right. For Cloud and Aerith the church is just a place they happened to spend about 5 minutes at one point, not even the place they met. Meanwhile Zack went there to see her for I think about one and a half years. He goes there instantly in intergrade, he goes there in Rebirth, we see him waiting there for Aerith at the end of rebirth, the core visual for Crisis core was changed to TAKE PLACE IN THE CHURCH. But the Church is Cloud and Aeriths place.....yeah right. Either that is an intentional hint that Aerith is still projecting, or the writing has fallen off a cliff. Then we have the other character moments, Cloud and Tifa pining for each other, the parallels between Cloti and Zerith. Zack promising Aerith he'll come for her underneath the water tower. And my favorite Aeriths "23 tiny little wishes", all encompassed in the one with to "spend more time with Zack". Which is then ultimately fulfilled via Cloud in the OG/rebirth. And then of course there is the ending, my favorite ending of any game ever aside from Nier:Automata. Man I bawled my eyes out. So yeah, I like Crisis Core, it's messy, but it's messy with a lot of gold in it, and for a portable title I think that's not half bad.

[dutchdread]

Why do you think they made Cloud and Tifas kiss optional. I know it doesn't really matter since the hug and other sweet scenes are optional as well but I was wondering why they decided to have something so significant be an optional date at the golden saucer?

This will be a short reply because it's not really that worth investigating tbh. The optional vs non-optional thing really means very little in this case. It was just wrong place in the story to put it non-optionally basically. This game was supposed to have an affection system. If they made Cloud and Tifa kiss non-optionally, then what could they do in their date that wouldn't feel underwhelming in comparison? Take their clothes off right then and there? That's more of a part 3 thing don't you think? The reason they put it in the date is because that was the right place to put it. Had I made the game, that's where I would have put it, and if I am being completely honest, I might not have even given them a kiss yet, I'd have probably saved that for part 3. As I discussed in a previous reply I could have easily been scared that I was doing too much too soon. Bless em, they've chosen to go more heavy on the Cloti than even me.

This game already has Cloud and Tifa nearly kissing in Gongaga, and we still have an entire game to go. This was the game that payed homage to the affection system of the OG, as well as the part of the story where Cloud is still working through his soldier persona and where Aerith is trying to work out her feelings in regards to Cloud and Zack. It would just be a weird part of the story to put in a must watch kiss.

As a thought experiment, just put yourself in the minds of the developers and ask yourself: "if I were to want to put in a kiss between Cloud and Tifa, where would I put it?" If the answer is "during their date", then congrats, you passed a very low bar for being able to make obvious decisions.

It really isn't more deep or difficult than that. The developers aren't making these games as a shipping puzzle where they go out of their way to sprinkle in kisses in optional scenes just so you have to derive the meaning behind their actions and figure out their shipping master plan or something. They're just trying to tell a story, and in that story Cloud and Tifa are in love, and that story has dates, thus, they kiss on their date. Case closed. You want non optional stuff? Wait for part 3 where Cloud and Tifas relationship, and showing it develop in straight romance, becomes more central to the story.

[dutchdread]

what do you think about Cait siths fortune about cloud losing what he cherishes the most

Don't have a strong opinion on it to be honest, because the thing with predictions in stories is that they're never straight forward. They're intentionally made vague to the point that often they can mean whatever you want it to mean. It's an old magicians trick in the real world as well, predict something vaguely meaningful and if a person wants to believe it they'll find a way to apply it to them. Obviously Cait Sith can't actually tell the future, and we know from the OG at least that his predictions are just shit in general. He predicts a bright future between Aerith and Cloud, and well....we know how that turns out. In the past I've conjectured that this particular prediction may have been a hold-out from earlier drafts of the story, that stuff happened all the time back in the day. Game development was a lot less formalized back then. So I was curious whether it would show up in Rebirth, but it did. Could just be because they're being pretty accurate when it comes to trivial things, could be because the predictions actually matter, I couldn't tell you. My gut instinct is that yes, it means something, because developers tend to not put in predictions, even fake ones, without them having SOME meaning. But as for what that meaning is? Your guess is as good as anyone elses. Could be that the predictions are aimed at the player rather than Cloud. Could be that the predictions are intentionally bad, seeing as they also say Clouds lucky color is "black" which with Sephiroth and the Black materia doesn't feel that lucky to me (unless it refers to Tifa or something? Like I said, they can mean anything). I've also heard theories that it refers to Clouds sanity or fake persona, "himself" in short. And I've hear interpretations that it refers to Tifas faith in him, that one seems pretty possible since that's the thing that eventually breaks him, and has been stated by him to be the only thing that matters as well as the reason he started this entire journey. The obvious interpretation Cleriths will want you to take is of course that it is about him losing Aerith, but I'd say that seems unlikely for 2 reasons. 1: The idea of Aerith being what he cherishes most is absurd even IF he did have romantic feelings for her by that time. He's known her for all of a week and has spend most of that time being annoyed with her, in stark contrast to Tifa, meaning this would be the most ill-written teenage rom-com overdramatized ass pull ever. But more importantly 2: That seems exactly like the sort of thing that is so straightforward that it's unlikely to be the "real" explanation. But ultimately there is one thing that supersedes all of this. One thing that makes any specific interpretation of this prediction null and void.

Sephiroth: Tell me what you cherish most. Give me the pleasure of taking it away. Cloud: "I pity you, you just don't get it at all. THERE'S NOTHING I DON'T CHERISH!

~ Cloud in AC. This line feels like it was made on purpose to counter and reject all these attempts at ranking the things that Cloud holds dear. Doing so is literally the path of Sephiroth, and it's something I see Cleriths doing ALL THE TIME. Asking what Cloud cherishes is the wrong question. He cherishes everything. Based on this, the only "most cherished thing" he can lose....is everything.

[dutchdread]

Why do you think SE celebrated other ff couples like Zidane and Garnet on ,for example, their website, but not Cloud and Tifa. In fact other ff couples have been confirmed as exactly that but not Cloud and Tifa. Why do you think that is?

Well, there are a bunch of ways to answer this since the question is very vague to me, so first I gotta ask: What makes you think Cloud and Tifa aren't celebrated?

Not pictured: Cloud and Tifa getting celebrated apparently.

FFIX is my favorite game of all time but I can't think of a single time where Garnet and Zidane got "celebrated". I'm sure you can find times if you go out and look, but the same goes for Cloud and Tifa. When I think about them I can remember countless times they got "celebrated" in a multitude of ways. For instance, we have SE consistently liking Cloti posts:

Or bringing up things like "words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking".

Or giving them matching outfits:

Hell, I could argue that the very existence of Advent children is a "celebration" of Cloti, seeing as it was originally envisioned as just a short story about Cloud, Tifa, and the kids.

How is Traces of two pasts talking about how Tifa fell in love with Cloud not a celebration? How is "2,000 Gil Leading to a Hero" talking about Cloud wanting to become Tifas "special existence" not a celebration?

And this is ignoring of course that essentially the entire Remake has felt like a celebration of Cloud and Tifas romance to the point where it has been more central to the story than even the romance of Squall and Rinoa was in FFVIII. So when you say they're not celebrated, what do you mean? Do you mean that they're usually described as childhood friends in relationship charts and descriptions and the like when characters like Zidane and Garnet are not?

Because if so it makes me wonder why Zidane and Garnet are described as "important person" rather than "favors" (the same term often used to describe Tifa btw). It also makes me wonder why Beatrix and Steiner are merely described as "friendly", why Beatrix is described as "loyal to Brahne", and a bunch of different things. Fact is that often times these relationship charts merely describe the predominantly occurring relationship DYNAMIC during the story AS it is essential to the story, rather than exactly describing the nature of the relationships at the conclusion of the story for the sake of shippers. Which is why we have stuff like this:

Even though Wakka and Lulu literally end up raising a baby. This is also why the relationship chart for Advent Children only lists Aerith in relationship to Cloud as "sense of guilt", because while obviously Aerith is more than just an object of guilt, the fact that Cloud feels guilt towards her is what's actually important to understanding the events of the movie.

So when we have stuff like this it doesn't tell us that three girls favor Cloud, but Cloud doesn't favor any of them, or that all three girls are equal, or that the game doesn't confirm anything. It just means that the predominant dynamic we see played out in the story is of them favoring him. The actual objective confirmation of Clouds feelings then come from the myriad of quotes we have where it's stated that in the lifestream it is revealed that Cloud and Tifas feelings....are mutual. So even if it were the case that Garnet and Zidane were described as mutually favoring each other. That would not be something that's to be wondered at. Zidane and Garnets main dynamic right from the start is that of a girl and a boy who has a crush on her. It's neither a reveal not a change of dynamic, but what matters FOR THE STORY is that they're important to each other. With Cloud and Tifa the fact that Cloud has always been in love with her has historically always been presented as a twist, even in Rebirth while it's clear that Cloud is in love with Tifa the notion that this has gone on since childhood, along with the depth and the fact that it's the primary cause of Clouds internal strife, is still something of a reveal, and you generally avoid revealing important twists in books that essentially discus the state of a games story as it is during the game itself. The remake Ultimania doesn't spoil the exact nature of all the different Sephiroths, nor the exact nature of Aeriths knowledge, those are for part 3 to reveal. But even if none of that were true, and Square-enix absolutely refuses to "celebrate cloti", whatever that means, it is still kind of a moot point, because the unwillingness to explicitly confirm a ship is not the same as no ship being canon. As I've discussed at length in the following article: Link

Nomura : “AC is a piece of work made by Japanese people. In Hollywood movies, I think there is a tendency where the meaning of all the scenes have to be expressed clearly but, this isn’t something like that. With our work, the viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy it. The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the angel statue that makes an appearance many times. But, even if someone who has watched it interprets it differently, then that is just another answer. I guess “comparing answers” with friends is one of the ways you can enjoy the movie. I think AC is a movie that makes those who have watched it, want to talk about it with others.“ ~FFVII AC Prologue Book

The reason they might not want to be too explicit about any specific ship might simply be that they don't want to deprive people of the pleasure of having their own interpretations. That doesn't mean that things aren't canon. After all: " The staff has their own answers to all the scenes". A sentiment that is again reflected in the following interview.

A straight forward path has Cloud ending up with Tifa, and there are no branching paths here. The game allows you leeway to project your own feelings onto it, but it doesn't actually change the story. The developers have their own interpretation, and that's the interpretation that's guiding the story. If YOU want to believe Cloud actually loves Barret, you can, there is nothing or no one stopping you......but they'll never get a kiss. Additionally, if we are to agree with the premise that Cloud and Tifa (and by extension Cloud and Aerith) aren't celebrated, then there is a corollary question to yours that should be asked as well. If both ships are valid, then why aren't they just both celebrated? Rather than not celebrating either ship....why not celebrate both? Make it explicit that that his a "choose your own waifu" game and Cloud genuinely loves whichever girl you want. Quintessential quintuplets probably is the most famous anime "love war" of the last few years, and it has 5 women vying for the same man, with one unambiguous winner. And yet, rather than the other 4 not getting any "celebration" the 5 are almost always portrayed as equal, all 5 of them often even wearing bridal gowns.

So why not Cloti and Clerith? Why doesn't Square enix celebrate Cloud and Aerith by putting both Cloud and Tifa, AND Cloud and Aerith on some official Couple page? Or hell, I'll do you one simpler.....why doesn't Square-enix celebrate both Cloti and Clerith by giving BOTH an optional Kissing scene? Answer? Because they're not both valid, because this is not a game with branching paths, it's a game where you end up with Tifa, but has in the past given you leeway to project your own incorrect interpretations onto it. But the interpretations are still incorrect, even if not outright corrected. And when telling the story properly requires those incorrect interpretations to be overruled, they will be, as shown by the following quote by Nojima.

"in FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE, there will be much less room for player imagination. This fact will probably change the feel of the story considerably. People who know the original might not know quite how to take it. Such is the fear that I have. But I also have conviction. It should be possible to feel a much deeper connection to Cloud as you join alongside him"

Anyway, I'm too busy (and lazy) to spend too much time going around looking for more times that SE celebrated Cloti, but I think enigmaphenomenon already did that pretty well with the following article, so I'll link that as a nice resource: "Cloti Merchandise by Enigmaphenomenon"

Tl Dr; concerning celebrating Cloti.....Who got a kissing scene again? Oh yeah

[dutchdread]

Hello Dutch, don't you think Cloud kissed Tifa too soon? The big reveal in the Lifestream scene is the hidden romantic feelings Cloud had for Tifa, but now that revelation won't be as impactful because he has already declared his feelings for her.

This is actually something I've been thinking about myself, and I think that you could definitely make an argument for this being the case. That having been said I think it's a matter of personal….for lack of a better word, choice. I think you can choose to be negative and see it as such, but rather than looking at "what could have been" you can also choose to look at what we actually got and see if there is a positive way to see it.

First lets look at what we didn't get though. We didn't get 2 games of Cloud and Tifa not showing any romantic interest in each other…..can we agree that that's a good thing? Because honestly that would SUCK!!!!! And if we consider how bad the backlash was back in 1997 when the "Tifa is the true love interest" reveal happened in the game itself how bad would it have been if we'd instead had had 8 years and two games of them seemingly being mostly platonic?

People would be absolutely bamboozled, they'd feel it came out of nowhere and probably have felt rather scammed. Clotis would have hated the first two games with a passion, and Cleriths (which would include every new player) would be rioting at the third.

So then the choice is between including it subtly, or going all in. Well, if they went subtle, it would still be noticeable, so the idea that Cloud might have a crush on Tifa would still no longer be a reveal. This isn't 1997, models have facial animations now, they have micro expressions. Back in 1997 being "not interested" or being in love was represented with the same vertical stripe, so regular interactions essentially revealed very little information about a characters emotions.

Pictured: Complete disinterest, or, complete sexual desire. You decide!

But in 2024 the same thing no longer applies. Every sentence, even the simple speaking of a name, comes with a host of meaning. You can't have Cloud speak Tifas name as though it means nothing for 2 games, and still expect people to be on their side when it comes to romance. And you can't expect people to hear Cloud speak Tifas name with longing for 8 years and then still be surprised that he's into her.

So the reveal was always dead in the water, and they instead went all in, because why not? You see, the reveal isn't exactly that Cloud is in love with Tifa. The reveal is the depth of the love, how far back it's gone, and all the things it has caused. Not just that Cloud has and had a crush on Tifa, but that it's been his entire raison d'etre for the past 10 or so years. When Yuffie asks Cloud whether he liked Tifa when he was younger, and he answered "don't remember", this scene suddenly became a lot more poignant as the player realizes that was actually either a bold-faced lie, or very tragically ironic.

The viewer is left wondering if Cloud, even as we were playing him then, was at least aware of his love of Tifa, but wasn't showing it due to his mask, or if even he genuinely forgot the very thing that set him on this path (personally I think that while Cloud is totally unsure of who or what he is, that he is 100% aware that he deeply loves Tifa, even at the start of Remake).

And if we're going to be explicit anyway, then what difference does it make whether he kisses her or not? The reveal that Cloud likes Tifa is gone with or without it, so might as well go with it. And while the reveal might be less impactful for us, there is one person who, even with the kiss, will still be blown away by it. The most important person, Tifa. To Tifa the kiss probably didn't reveal as much as it did to us, because Tifa has no clue what is really going on with Cloud, nor the state of his psyche. With everything he's been doing she could very well be wondering if the person who kissed her was even Cloud. So the reveal that it wasn't just Cloud that kissed her, but that it's so utterly him that he had been longing for it his entire life will feel SOOOOOOO unfathomably relieving that the mere second hand experience that we the player will get through empathy with Tifa will more than compensate for any loss of shock, IF it is done right.

So I guess what I am trying to say is, don't worry, the reveal isn't ruined. Because the reveal will still recontextualize everything that came before it. Before the reveal Cloud hugging Tifa in remake feels like a dude being hugged but being a bit uncomfortable because of his brooding personality, and not knowing what to do, but deciding to hug back because he's grown closer to his childhood friend over the course of the game, and has developed some feelings for her (essentially what Cleriths think Aerith and Cloud are experiencing at the end of Rebirth XD).

After the reveal Tifa hugging Cloud feels like a huge dork getting everything he's dreamed about his entire life and having absolutely no clue what to do because he's so shy and awkward and "omg I never thought I'd get this far, don't screw this up, don't screw this up". Before the reveal Cloud kissing Tifa feels like a cool guy who loves Tifa giving her the kiss they both desire, but probably Tifa most of all. After the reveal the kiss feels like Cloud winning a thousand jackpots at once. A sweet boy whose heart is probably pounding out of this chest and is barely managing to stay cool.

And there is a second improvement to the story resulting from the kiss. Namely the increased sense of loss and pain associated with Cloud drifting away from Tifa and finally breaking. In the original its sad to watch Tifa cry out about losing Cloud, but it's nothing compared to what we get in Rebirth, let alone what we will hopefully get in part 3. There can be no doubt that the reason it hits so hard when Cloud rips away Tifas hand in the temple of the ancients after he tried killing Elena is because the game so effectively established the bond between Cloud and Tifa. Him forcefully removing her hand has become viscerally shocking. Both because it now shows extra clearly how far gone Cloud is, but also because it makes Tifas experience extra tragic.

Without the romance and kiss it would have just been Tifa losing the Cloud she had found by the tracks. She wanted to find the boy she'd fallen in love with, she had wanted to rekindle something, but ultimately she wouldn't have done so, and therefore losing him would feel less painful. It's far more painful to have something and lose it than to never have it in the first place. With the romance and the kiss Tifa actually found that boy and bond that she'd thought about for so long. And to finally find that one sliver of happiness and then to have it ripped away right when she needed it most…..well it cuts twice as hard. When she takes care of Cloud in Mideel, knowing what she lost, having only ever gotten that kiss…..well, it cuts twice as deep.

And of course, this will also make the reveal in the lifestream that she never lost the real Cloud, all the more amazing. (OH THANK GOD, I finally figured out why TUMBLR was randomly not allowing me to post longer posts)

[dutchdread]

Do be a hater but I'mma say my truth, Tifa is the only reason the end feel any grief whatsoever. The new twist really kills any emotional impact Aerith's death may have and the boss fight that just keeps going on and on and on doesn't help either. With new LS sequence, her bond with the Weapon, unspoken beef with Sephiroth, her taking care of the party members, her relationship with Cloud,... I'm surprised at how much emotion heavy lifting Tifa has in Rebirth. So far I'm glad that the devs nail her character so well in Rebirth but I'm also extremely concerned for part 3 cos Tifa will have more focus and how they treat Aerith- the supposed focus of Rebirth- is.... questionable to say the least, so I can't give them any benefits of doubt.

Yeah I also really dislike the ending of Rebirth. The problem is that they tried giving equal screentime to Tifa an Aerith in a game that, quite honestly, should be more Aerith focused. This was the game in which Aerith was going to die, which means she'd have a lot of focus at the end. But because they wanted Tifa and Aerith to have equal screentime and scenes that meant Tifa would get a lot of screentime throughout the rest of the game. This essentially gave us the worst of both worlds. Tifa got absolutely amazing build-up. The game perfectly sets up her relationship with Cloud, as well as her friendship with Aerith. But then she barely gets pay-off in this game. Her pay-off is subdued, it comes in the form of a deafening silence. But this isn't a bad thing, like you said, Tifas grief is the main emotional trigger at the end of the game. But who really got screwed over by this is Aerith. Because she essentially got zero build up. Sure, the game shows her friendship with Tifa, and her pining over Zack, but unless you're doing an Aerith focused playthrough you will essentially have zero reason to think Cloud and Aerith are even particularly friendly, let alone that her death would constitute a major event in Clouds life that's more impactful than, for instance, that of Jesse. As a result Aerith sounds completely delusional during the dream date and the ending feels entirely tone-deaf because it overdramatizes something that really shouldn't be that big a deal based on the lack of set-up. This is then made worse by all the context surrounding Aeriths death. The death that achieved its fame by "not being hollywood", by being "sudden and leaving nothing but emptiness" became the most overdone spectacle in the history of gaming. It honestly was a travesty. And you can feel nothing because you don't even know what's happening. It completely failed to be focused or in the moment and as a result it was neither shocking nor contemplative.

[dutchdread]

Got a question why do some fans say tifa know the real cloud when in ff7 original she says they were never close as kids in the life stream scene? Even in remake and rebirth she say on the gs ride I can't remember us ever being this close before. Doesn't that make the playing field equal for aerith because tifa didn't know the real cloud either right?

I don't know if they're saying she "knows the real" Cloud, because I sort of agree, she doesn't really get to "know" the real Cloud until he bears his soul to her in the lifestream sequence. I think it's better to say that Tifa is "connected" to the real Cloud, narratively speaking, while Aerith is not.

First though I have to address the misconception that Tifa and Cloud weren't close as kids. They were, traces of two pasts gives us some insight into the childhood of Tifa and Cloud, and in it we learn that Tifa and Cloud were closer when they were VERY young, but grew apart later on. The implication is that this is when Cloud started developing feelings for Tifa, which caused him to distance himself. But there is still a difference between that and Aeriths connection. I think the best scene to explain this is the most obvious one, the water tower scene. In the water tower scene we discover that while Tifa likes Cloud, she wasn't sure yet what sort of "like". Mirroring Aeriths scene at the end of rebirth. But while Aeriths scene ends with the "but" of "liking, BUT not like liking", Tifas story goes a little different. Cloud says he'll be a soldier, and that he's not like other boys, not knowing that this was the 4th time someone has said this to her. And yet, the proclamation didn't disappoint her. Because it's not the alure of Cloud being a famous soldier that catches Tifas eye.

"she'd discovered that Cloud - the quiet neighbour who had always seemed as unreachable as the stars - was just a normal boy like any other. She'd come to understand that she did like him. And it was that special kind of "like" - the one that ties up your heart, making you yearn to be with that person for the rest of your days.

It's that moment, where Cloud bears his soul to her for the first time, when he's "just a boy", that Tifa falls in love. In other words, Tifa fell in love with the exact antithesis of the fake soldier persona that he put on later in life. The irony, and beauty, of this story lies in the fact that Cloud believed he needed to be this heroic soldier for Tifa to notice him, but all he really needed to be was just a boy with some dreams, he just needed to be himself, to be human. For Tifa, Cloud was already a hero just as he was, the boy that followed her up the mountain.

When Tifa meets Soldier Cloud, she's put-off by his eyes and his soldier persona, because that's not who she hoped to see. She hoped to see that hopeful shy boy from Nibelheim that asked her to come to the water tower. Meanwhile Aerith liked his eyes and soldier persona, because that IS who she hoped to see, only in Zack. She's longing for the boy she's wearing pink for, whom she sent letters to for 4 years. Of whom it was her one wish to "spend more time with". Both girls in essence are looking for that connection with the fake Cloud/Zack conglomeration. But only Tifa has the real connection, because at the heart of the fake Cloud lies the real Cloud, and not Zack. Which is why her dates and interactions with Cloud go naturally, because that's his heart shining through from underneath the fake persona. And that's why all the dates with Aerith are so rough, because Aerith is bouncing energy off of him in a way that would work with Zack, but Cloud is not Zack, and because of that the entire thing feels forced and unnatural.

[dutchdread]

What do you think about people who dismiss Cloud loving only Tifa and that he has feelings for both and it’s “complicated and messy”? I guess the both girls argument. Or when people refer to what scenes you see as “routes” like a dating sim.

I'm sure he has feelings for both, it's impossible to know a person and not have SOME feelings for them, either good or bad. The problem isn't that people think that Cloud has messy or complicated feelings, of course he does, the entire story of the game is built on Clouds feelings being messy. This is a story about a person who constructed a fake persona because of his feelings, who then had their personality and memories played with by both Mako and Jenova, who literally took over parts of the identity of Aeriths Ex. If this story didn't have messy feelings in it then it would be a pretty poorly written story. That would constitute a failure to use the most basic story telling building blocks that your premise has provided you with.

But here's the thing. While these "messy" feelings might be the premise of the story, stories advance, they have resolutions. And the fact is that the core principle on which the resolution of the story of Clouds "messy" feelings is built, is finding something that is truly, positively, 100%, Cloud. On finding something that is so certain, so core to his identity and personality, that it by itself is enough to separate the "real Cloud" from all the messy bullshit.

This entire story is built on finding the real Cloud, that's what Aerith is trying to do. But the point is that she can't, because her connection to the messy Cloud is through the fake part, the Zack part. It's Tifa that has the connection to the real Cloud, that is the twist resolution of the entire game. When we, in the lifestream sequence, discover that the real Clouds entire life, his entire raison d'etre, has been about Tifa. That is the thing that is beyond discussion, beyond choice and beyond messy personality. People often mischaracterize Tifa as being "all about a man", but it is nothing compared to how much Clouds existence revolves around Tifa.

People talk about this game as though it were a dating sim, yeah, but dating Sims have multiple outcomes. People pretend that there is a Tifa route here and an Aerith Route, but there isn't. There is just a straight forward Tifa route, which ends with Aerith dying and Cloud and Tifa raising kids together, and then there is a surprise Tifa route, which also ends with Aerith dying and Cloud and Tifa raising kids together. There is no version of this story where Clouds life didn't join soldier for Tifa, there is no version of this story where Cloud doesn't proclaim Tifas opinion to be the only one that matters, there is no version of this story where Tifa doesn't become aware of Clouds feelings in the lifestream, there is no version of this story where Cloud and Tifa don't spend the night together under the highwind, there is no version of this story where Cloud and Tifa don't end up raising kids together, there is no version of this story where Aerith meets the real Cloud, there is no version of this story where Aerith doesn't die, there is no version of this story where Cloud reciprocates Aeriths feelings, hell, there isn't even a single version of this story that unambiguously shows Aerith to have genuine feelings for Cloud. Hell, since rebirth the most explicit confirmation of feelings we have between the two seems to be a pretty clear mutual friend zoning. Like....but not "like like".

So yeah, I am sure that Cloud both has feelings for the love of his life that he's been shown to be borderline obsessed with for the past 10 years, as well as the girl he knew for one week while braindamaged, but until there is a version of this story where Cloud spends his last evening under the highwind with a living Aerith the people who pretend there are more routes here are just coping. And that's what I "think about them", I think they're lying to themselves.

[dutchdread]

“She is is envious of the bond Cloud has with Tifa”

Genuine question here because I see a lot of CloTi discourse talk about how Aerith is envious of Cloud and Tifa’s bond, but is this ever mentioned officially or explained? I can’t find one single inference or implication that she is, only that one could argue via subjective interpretation that she maybe wants to try to learn Cloud for who he is and not who he reminds her of.

Arguably, one could say that this interpretation is inherently describing an envy, but I’m looking at it from the perspective of Aerith wanting to learn who Cloud is in an effort to like him for him and not Zack.

(Full disclosure: I’m actually a huge CloTi, but I’ve been out of the fandom for a decade+, and I’ve been reading a lot of discussions on the LTD, and while my personal opinion is that CloTi is more or less canonical at this point, the nuance that they’ve developed with Aerith that just wasn’t there in OG is interesting/perplexing to me because I don’t have a full scope of info. And I like it when things are proven by the devs. It’s possible that there’s information I’m missing or have missed, but otherwise what I have consumed doesn’t seem to indicate she’s envious of Cloud/Tifa’s relationship specifically.)

The idea that Aerith is envious of Cloud and Tifas bond became a thing mostly after Rebirth. Before that it was also put forth at times when someone did a character study of Aerith and the evidence back then was mostly just that it fit and made sense. In essence it was an amateur diagnosis. We saw in Remake that Aerith had unresolved issues concerning her childhood during the Eligor scene, that combined with what we learned about her childhood in TotP made it so that a lot of her outgoing "life affirming" behavior made a lot of sense if she was, in essence, trying to catch up for lost time. She's enthusiastically, perhaps even desperately, trying to have the same experiences everyone else has, to have a normal life. This is also congruent with other parts of the story, like her seeing Zack in Cloud. If Cloud reminds her of Zack, and she had a bond with Zack, then watching Cloud and Tifa express that same young love that she once felt would naturally lead to her wishing she had that. After all, we've known for a long time that Aerith still isn't over Zack, so her being slightly envious of that is natural. And that doesn't have to be a bad thing. You can be happy someone has something and because of that have a positive longing to experience something similar. But where this was really made explicit is in Rebirth, where there are multiple scenes that hint or outright state that Aerith wishes she had something like what Cloud and Tifa have. The main two being the Kalm "date" and the watertower discussion. In Kalm Aerith takes Cloud on a date as a pretense to talk about the prior night, and almost the first thing she does is mention Cloud and Tifas friendship and mention that she'd have given anything to have a friend when she was growing up. As soon as she thinks of their bond her first thought is to link it to her own desires.

She continues by saying to not take Tifa for granted. Since this is something Aerith lacked she thinks it's important, and the idea of it being sullied or undermined instinctively bothers her. She wants them to value it as much as she would value such a thing. This is not her living vicariously through Cloud and Tifa or anything, but just a small nuance that paints the picture of a girl who yearns for these bonds herself enough that she is hyper aware of them with other people. All this is then stated explicitly on the water tower, where Aerith states: "Must be nice..."

She generally willfully daydreams about how nice Nibelheim is. It all paints the same picture, a girl without a childhood who never got to experience the things that Cloud and Tifa had and lost, but wishes that she did. This is a huge part of her character and establishes the background needed to understand stuff like "no promises to keep". Some people are upset that NPTK is not a love song from Aerith to Cloud, but a deeper look into Aerith shows why it would be weird for it to be one. Because Aeriths journey isn't about romance, it isn't even just about Cloud. It's about her experiencing and developing the bonds that she felt she was denied for so long. The song is "even about Tifa and Barret" because it's about all the precious bonds she made on her journey. It's one of the things that makes Clotis version of Aerith superior to the Clerith version, because we give her so many more layers.