leynaeithnea

[leynaeithnea]

Hi

I am very interested in this ❤️

Question: do you have resources/sources about Penelope? I am trying to figure out how old was she during Helen's courtship and how old was she when she married Odysseus (and what is the age difference between them... )

Thank you ❤️

Hello! Thank you so much for being interested!

All resources about Penelope can be found on ToposText (which has been linked below), but to answer your question - no we don't actually have a concrete age of how old she was when she married Odysseus.

Though that being said there is a general idea that you can piece together from the Iliad and the Odyssey, and the references we get of their ages in them:

Now, when they mingled with our Trojans in assembly, standing side-by-side, Menelaus' shoulders mounted over his friend's in height and spread, when both were seated Odysseus looked more lordly. But when they spun their appeals before us all, Menelaus spoke out quickly-his words racing, few but clear as a bell, nothing long-winded or off the mark, though in fact the man was younger.

[Book 3 of The Iliad]

Antilochus came to his senses, backed off quickly: "No more. please. I am much younger than you are. lord Menelaus-you're my senior, you the greater man

[Book 23 of The Iliad]

Antilochus came in last and carried off his prize with a broad smile and a joke to warm his comrades: "I'll tell you something you've always known, my friends down to this very day the gods prefer old-timers. Look at [Lesser] Ajax now, with only a few years on me. But Odysseus-why, he's out of the dark ages, one of the old relics- but in green old age, they say.

[Book 23 of The Iliad]

She's much too steady, her feelings run too deep, Icarius' daughter Penelope, that wise woman. She was a young bride, I well remember... we left her behind when we went off to war, with an infant boy she nestled at her breast.

[Book 11 of The Odyssey]

[leynaeithnea]

Yall did it.....

Now where are the promised goods? 👉👈🥹

[leynaeithnea]

With the ilium musical coming, can we be a bit better with tags this time haha

[leynaeithnea]

Diomedes Week

June 7th - 13th and 12th - 18th July

There will be TWO weeks to allow as many people as possible to enter this event!

The first one will be June 7th - 13th the second will be July 12th - 18th

The second one will have a repeat of the prompts of week one PLUS new prompts for each day 

The prompts for both weeks will be released now to give people time to prep! 

The examples given are only examples, feel free to do ANYTHING that vaguely falls under these prompts!

Asks are open if you have any more questions or concerns! 🧡

Transcription and Discord Link are under the cut

Here are the general rules for both weeks: 

Contributions can be any fanwork: fanart, fanfiction, DIY, an altar, really anything!

Tag @diomedesweek and put it under the #diomedesweek tag

Tag the right fandoms, try to avoid crosstagging

You don't have to do all prompts, you can! Do as many as you want

You can pick either one or both or all three of the prompts of the day, do them separately or in a single work

Nsfw and suggestive content is allowed AS LONG as it’s marked as such and put under a spoiler, the same goes for gore and violence, use Content Warnings where appropriate

Links to work outside of tumblr (i.e. ao3, bluesky) are allowed!

The use of generative AI is prohibited

Late submissions are fine!

No character bashing or hate towards fans or fan works, have fun and be kind!

Some more Tips:

Prompts will be posted well ahead, so feel free to create things in advance and queue them up for the day of the prompt if you’re busy on any day!

The digital library “Topostext” has a database sorted via characters if you look for Diomedes there (https://topostext.org/people/124) you can find all mentions of him in the most important ancient sources, it’s a great place for research, his Wikipedia page is also very extensive! Use this opportunity to learn more about him!

For anyone who may want to dig REALLY deep into his character I have compiled a document (Diomedes-Doc) with sources and papers that are about him or relevant to him, feel free to use it or don’t! Just have fun with it!

Prompts Week 1

Day 1 -> Childhood (i.e. becoming king / oath)

-> Rare Pair (i.e. romantic / platonic)

Day 2 -> Gods (i.e. athena / fighting the gods)

-> Headcanon (i.e. ichor scars / ftm)

Day 3 -> War (i.e. troy / thebes / calydon)

-> (Animal) Symbolism (i.e. boar / albatross)

Day 4 -> Trojan War Characters (i.e. odysseus / outside the battlefield)

-> Epithets (i.e. horse-tamer / lord of the war-cry)

Day 5 -> Family (i.e. found family / blood family)

-> AU (i.e. modern / alternative events)

Day 6 -> After Troy (i.e. exile / homecoming)

-> Favorite Trope (i.e. hurt comfort / angst / fluff)

Day 7 -> Diomedes / Free day

Prompts Week 2 (+ Week 1 prompts)

Day 1 -> Epigoni (i.e. war at thebes / sthenelus)

Day 2 -> Consequence (i.e. PTSD / made enemies)

Day 3 -> Son Of Tydeus (i.e. cannibalism / living up to expectations)

Day 4 -> Blood (i.e. bloodshed / wounds)

Day 5 -> Hero Cult (i.e. “lord of the adriatic sea” / worship)

Day 6 -> Death (i.e. deification / argos / italy)

Day 7 -> Diomedes / Free day

Also! We have a small Discord dedicated to Diomedes if anyone wants to check it out!

[leynaeithnea]

Penelope Week: From 27th July to 2nd August!

The Dates and List of Prompts for Penelope Week are officially out!

Penelope Week 2025 will be held from Sunday, 27th of July to Saturday, 2nd of August.

There are a wide range of prompts for everyone to choose and work on in any capacity or to use as inspiration, whether that be sfw or nsfw - so do let your imaginations run wild! We encourage art of all different forms focusing on the iconic Greek Heroine!

Feel free to hit us up with any questions or doubts you may have! Our inbox is always open 🩷

[leynaeithnea]

Adaption: putting a story in a format that hasnt been that away before, i.e. a book turned into a movie or show, sticking to the story, characterizations & themes (minimal changes to account for the format may be necessary)

Retelling: the same events retold from a "new perspective" i.e. A new POV character - not changing the events or characterizations

Based on: mostly following the story but making some significant changes to the story, events, characters, etc, i.e. because of other themes than the original

Re-imagined: changing some significaticant elements i.e. the setting, characters genders, etc. but same story elements

Inspired by: uses the source as inspiration and makes with it whatever they want

[leynaeithnea]

Yuppppp !!!!

Love to see more love for DioNeas emerging...its been time

it really has!! dioneas have so much enemies to tired allies to lovers potential, plus the whole trojan × greek concept (this time entirely consensual at that) is so delicious

[leynaeithnea]

Need more DioNeas writers....

....and need to continue my own fics :") WE NEED POST TROY DIONEAS MAN

have half a fic finished but they decided to get spicy of all things

Still need a fic where they start a fight (guess which of them is passively suicidal about it)

And others having to intervenes bc they get too lost in their own messes

I fr need Diomedes and Aeneas so messy, like the messiest ever. I wbat yelling, sobbing, biting, clawing, trying to put eachother back together again just so you could destroy them and restart the process. Like ughhhh I need feelings, and I need those feelings to be complex and wretched but oh so sweet and loving too.Also I'm.convinced I'm all ur dioneas asks, I'm so sorry for like the 6 I just sent in succession

i saw the dioneas explosion in my inbox and instantly went 👀

BUT MESSY GRIEVING DIONEAS POST-TROY YES YES YES - both of them have lost their cities, their homeland, and they're exiled in italy. the enemies to lovers with ridiculous tension can only mean messy hate sex in an attempt to destroy each other still (or is it themselves?)

I LOVE IT

[leynaeithnea]

Soooooo I drew Tydeus with his tits out

[leynaeithnea]

I really miss Diomedes

[leynaeithnea]

Ilium the Musical by Jorge-Rivera Herrans .....its happening

[leynaeithnea]

I should make a new pinned post with my most relevant posts shouldnt I m....Mmhhhh

[leynaeithnea]

"Penelope deserves to get that man pregnant" well personally I think she deserves a nap and 20 orgasms and Antinous' head served up on a platter.

[leynaeithnea]

Guys...dont let Diomedes end up in Odysseus shadows again! He already has to grow out of his fathers....

[leynaeithnea]

Keep telling people not to read Wilsons translation on your first read because she will inevitably negatively impact your view of the characters with her choices 💔

Read her as your 2nd or 3rd translation maybe, read Fagles if you want a modern (90s) not so hard translation to read. Or Rieu if you want smth more like prose when prose is hard to understand 😔

Dont quote Wilson to me as proof for characterization

She used "stubborn Odysseus refused to listen" in the iliad book 8

When the other translations have "long-enduring/suffering Odysseus did not harken" (or smth of the kind) with the greek also being harken. The greek is ambiguous! Its specificly not clear whether he did not hear or did not listen to Diomedes. It was thundering, all armies retreated, but suddenly Odysseus is "stubborn" and "refuses" to listen

The same goes for these Telemachus scene😔 if you critize them do it at least for what they actually did and not what the translation made it out to be

An in-depth too long analysis of odyssey! Telemachus’s sexism and the role that translation plays in it + mother-son relationship analysis

Ah, canon Homer Telemachus. Ithaca’s batshit pissed off prince. Recently I’ve been seeing some takes on telemachus that make my heart sad, so I’m going to blab about my interpretation of him in Homer's odyssey. Not epic, though I love epic very dearly. While epic! telemachus is a lovely determined boy, OG tele is quite the controversial figure. Namely: the sexist little shit allegations. These allegations are not unfounded, however, as someone who has read wayyy too many translations of the Odyssey, I have a lot of thoughts about Telemachus's behavior and the way it's interpreted. So here’s my extremely deep analysis into Telemachus’s attitude towards his mother in Homer’s original Odyssey.

First thing out of the way: Is Telemachus sexist? Yeah. Quite a bit. It's ancient Ithaca, of course he’s talking about being the man of the house. As much as I love the idea of spartan princess penelope, it’s unfortunately not very viable. When we read the Odyssey today, there’s a ton of shit that does not age well. However, when it comes to Telemachus’s dialogue with his mother, specifically, my interpretation of their relationship is a little different. (Only when it comes to penelope though the maid stuff is a whole other story).

In order to talk about different interpretations of the Odyssey, we’ve got to talk translations. Telemachus’s, and the behavior of characters as a whole, is oftentimes largely dependent on the translator. Case in point: If you read Wilson for example, Telemachus is unabashedly a sexist punk. But if you read Fitzgerald or Pope, he’s really not. And there’s a reason I think the latter are more faithful translations. While I like Wilson’s Odyssey, her goal was to create a very progressive version of the original. She makes a lot of changes to language to call out the problematic nature of the original, and is obviously going to make sexist ideas at the time blatantly more apparent for a modern audience. Nothing wrong with this and at times it's quite lovely, but her translation at times stands out as much, much, different than most of the other translators not only in language, but in intention. Let’s look at a specific passage from the Odyssey, namely the infamous moment Telemachus telling his mother to go inside after she addresses the bard, and from there look at the differences from translation to transaltion not only in what Telemachus says, but Penelope’s reaction.

Wilson: Sullen Telemachus said, “Mother, no, you must not criticize the loyal bard for singing as it pleases him to sing. Poets are not to blame for how things are; Zeus is; he gives to each as is his will. Do not blame Phemius because he told about the Greek disasters. You must know the newest song is always praised the most.  So steel your heart and listen to the song. Odysseus was not the only one who did not come back home again from Troy.  Many were lost. Go in and do your work. Stick to the loom and distaff. Tell your slaves to do their chores as well. It is for men to talk, especially me. I am the master.” That startled her. She went back to her room and took her son’s uneasy words to heart. She went upstairs, along with both her slaves,  and wept there for her dear Odysseus,  until Athena gave her eyes sweet sleep

Oof. Not a good look for Telemachus. Hold your horses though because again, no shade to Wilson, but there are… a lot of things off here. From the first line, “Sullen Telemachus”. Sullen? Wilson is the only person I've seen call him sullen, although tell me if I'm wrong plz, but in nearly every other translation he is always thoughtful. Thoughtful or poised, or clearheaded. That really does show the kind of bias Wilson had when translating, because even though it’s a good translation, I do think this one exchange in particular is very misinterpreted, and at times a bit odd in the wording. Take note of the placement of the word uneasy, which I’ve always found to be fascinating especially compared to other translations. Looking at these translations, it's very clear how different Wilson's is from the rest of them.

Lattimore: Then the thoughtful Telemachos said to her in answer: ‘Why, my mother,  do you begrudge this excellent singer his pleasing himself as the thought drives him? It is not the singers who are to blame, it must be Zeus is to blame, who gives out to men who eat bread, to each and all, the way he wills it. There is nothing wrong in his singing the sad return of the Danaans.  People, surely, always give more applause to that song  which is the latest to circulate among the listeners.  So let your heart and let your spirit be hardened to listen.  Odysseus is not the only one who lost his homecoming day at Troy.  There were many others who perished, besides him.  Go therefore back in the house, and take up your own work,  the loom and the distaff, and see to it that your handmaidens  ply their work also; but the men must see to discussion,  all men, but I most of all. For mine is the power in this household.’  Penelope went back inside the house, in amazement, for she laid the  serious words of her son deep away in her spirit, and she went back to the  upper story with her attendant women,  and wept for Odysseus, her beloved husband,  until gray-eyed Athene cast sweet slumber over her eyelids

Looking at Lattimore, often considered the most accurate, the changes are immediately very obvious. The sexism remains, especially in the latter half, but Telemachus isn’t sullen, and most importantly, the way he addresses her is not disrespectful in the way Wilson’s is. Not what he says, but the manner in which he says it. Wilson’s modern language translation is very brief, and Telemachus as a result sounds harsh, while Lattimore makes it obvious that he is addressing his mother, and in the way that a son respected a mother in ancient Greece, respected her. However, the biggest difference is Penelope’s response. She is not “startled” and his words are not “uneasy”.  In fact, it’s quite the contrary. He’s serious, and she can be interpreted as trusting him and being impressed at his stoicism, and it is fairly clear that she is awed and takes him seriously, and is not hurt by what he says. Also note the difference between “master” and “mine is the power in this household”. One is asserting dominance over his mother specifically, and the other is asserting dominance over his house, which coincidentally has 108 power hungry suitors in it. Huh. As for the sexism, he’s a man in Ancient Greece. Period-typical, BUT I am going to talk about my thoughts on that once we look at all of the translations (well not all of them but the ones we are discussing here).

Fitzgerald: But Telemakhos intervened and said to her: "Mother, why do you grudge our own dear minstrel joy of song, wherever his thought may lead? Poets are not to blame, but Zeus who gives what fate he pleases to adventurous men.  Here is no reason for reproof: to sing the news of the Danaans!  Men like best a song that rings like morning on the ear.  But you must nerve yourself and try to listen. Odysseus was not the only one at Troy never to know the day of his homecoming.  Others, how many others, lost their lives!"  The lady gazed in wonder and withdrew, her son's clear wisdom echoing in her mind.  But when she had mounted to her rooms again with her two handmaids, then she fell to weeping for Odysseus, her husband. Grey-eyed Athena presently cast a sweet sleep on her eyes.

Here we’re getting into a much more nuanced and interesting version of Telemachus and Penelope’s relationship, and this my personal favorite translation of the Odyssey. I adore Fitzgerald's language and highly recommend it. Again, Telemachus is not disrespectful at all to her, and again most importantly, Penelope does not take it that way. “Gazed in wonder and withdrew, her son’s clear wisdom echoing in her mind” Come onnn man. I would argue that this Penelope is much less fragile than Wilson's. She’s not startled at his “uneasy” words (sorry for harping on about that I just hate that word choice), she respects her son. And he respects her. This dynamic is much more interesting, because even though what Telemachus is saying is obviously not the most sensitive, she is not afraid nor resentful, and she sees him as brave and smart instead of rude/scary. (kind of like his father if you're feeling like drawing some parallels) Notable that Fitzgerald completely omits Telemachus’s sexist words here, but even then Telemachus does speak of men very often and bring up Penelope needed to deal with the song like the men do, so he's not completely erasing the hints of patriarchal elements. Now, let’s look at the last, and my personal favorite of this scene, and then finally into my interpretation of Telemachus’s remarks and Penelope’s reaction.

Pope: "Why, dearest object of my duteous love,"  Replied the prince, "will you the bard reprove?  Oft, Jove's ethereal rays (resistless fire)  The chanter's soul and raptured song inspire;  Instinct divine? nor blame severe his choice,  Warbling the Grecian woes with harp and voice:  For novel lays attract our ravish'd ears;  But old, the mind with inattention hears;  Patient permit the sadly-pleasing strain;  Familiar now with grief, your tears refrain, And in the public wo forget your own; You weep not for a perish'd lord alone.  What Greeks now wandering in the Stygian gloom,  With your Ulysses shared an equal doom  Your widow'd hours, apart, with female toil  And various labours of the loom, beguile:  There rule, from palace-cares remote and free;  That care to man belongs, and most to me."  Mature beyond his years, the queen admires  His sage reply, and with her train retires.  Then swelling sorrows burst their former bounds,  With echoing grief afresh the dome resounds;  Till Pallas, piteous of her plaintive cries, In slumber closed her silver-streaming eyes.

Ohh fuck that’s a sexy translation. That's the sexiest translation of all. If you've never read Pope and hate Telemachus, read Pope! I love Pope so much. Not the easiest to get through, but that man knew how to give us emotion. We’ve gone from bitchy sullen Telemachus to “dearest object of my duteous love”. Like?? That's his mom! That's literally the only person he has ever consistently been truly devoted to other than a dad who he's never met! And it goes both ways, like “mature beyond his years” godDAMN that’s so perfect. The reason I think “mature beyond his years” is by far the line that understands their relationship the most is simply because when we look at the context of his situation, let’s try to understand what Telemachus is trying to do. He’s NOT uneasy! He's occasionally pushing her away to show his status to the suitors (although it doesn't really work lmao they don't give a fuck), and she is consistently impressed by it. As for the argument that this is just as inaccurate to the original as Wilson’s, I disagree because there are a lot more common threads that connect Pope, Fitzgerald, and Lattimore than Wilson. The most obvious just in this scene alone is that Penelope is impressed by her son in varying different ways. Consistently when Telemachus tells her to leave and let him have the authority she is quietly impressed or surprised, and looking at the context of the situation we can understand why. Analysis time baybe.

The reason I keep bringing up the time period is because Penelope canNOT really do anything against these suitors. Odysseus is her husband, Telemachus is her son, they can do something. Women in ancient Greece did not have the power to stand up against 108 angry men, and that is reflected in the text. The way I have always interpreted Telemachus’s insistence on being the “man of the house” is that he needs to be. It is essential. If he is not the man of the house, he loses the freaking house. That is why Penelope is impressed here. Why she’s either “in amazement”, “gaz[ing] in wonder”, or “admir[ing] his sage reply” Telemachus is young, and is treated as such. In a lot of the translations he is not yet considered a man. His insistence on being the man of the house, and this scene in particular, imo is him just saying “let me try to take care of this. As the literal only guy left, I have to fill that space and get them to respect me or we are massively screwed." Is it toxic masculinity? Of fucking course! The man has no father in a patriarchal society, the daddy issues are real intense with this one. He has no male authority figure except for suitors who harass his mom, whom he defends constantly. I’m not going to quote anymore so just read the scene where the suitors find out his mom is lying about the loom. They tell him to kick her out and his response is literally “why would i do that that’s stupid” in everything except wilson’s. Telemachus, unfortunate as it is, NEEDS to be the man of the house or get his dad back. That is why his mom is always so impressed with him being bold, because him standing up for himself and asserting power as the man of the house is kind of crazy when you think about how there are 108 men totally willing to kill him in order to get what he is claiming as his own. Mature beyond his years guys! That’s why she says that! I love Pope so much!! Unfortunately when he tries to speak in front of the suitors, they completely shut him down and that’s when he makes his voyage bc he just kind of keeps crying and they do not give a shit lmao. Telemachus is obviously sexist in a lot of ways, all the men in ancient Greece believed that men had more decision making authority than women, but I blatantly disagree that he does not respect his mother. He is desperate to prove himself, to “be a man”, but at the end of the day he protects her and I think there’s something to be noted about him continually asking her to go to her room to avoid the suitors. In the scene I used to analyze, he asks her to leave and go to her room, but once the men start saying they want to lie with his mother, he tells them to stfu and that tomorrow they have to gtfo. These men are dangerous, and he as her son, and yes, as a man, probably wants to take care of him themself instead of watching his mother deal with them. Yes, he asks her to go to her room again towards the end but that’s because he and Odysseus are literally going to MURDER the suitors. He wants her to get out of the way, and again Penelope’s reaction to this says multitudes.

Fitzgerald:  “She gazed in wonder, turned, and so withdrew, her son's clearheaded bravery in her heart.”

Come on gang. Is that the reaction of someone who feels like her son is disrespecting her? He's brave! He's choosing to deal with 108 men on his own who disrespect and actively want to kill him, and Penelope admires the hell out of it! Anyways, I love odyssey Telemachus. I think the Wilson interpretation makes me so sad because in nearly all of the other ones you can see how he just wants to protect her and keep their home. He wants to be the “man of the house”, yes, but he is literally facing 108 men who are most likely much older than him and who fully bully him constantly. He is trying to grow up because if he doesn’t they can claim the role of man of the house and both he and his mother are going to be in a terrible position. Also btw to anyone who says his reaction to Penelope’s silence at Odysseus’s return is bratty, I think it’s a fucking hilarious scene because you can tell he pictured his parents reuniting so happily and emotionally after 20 and is literally so frustrated when she’s just staring at him. Give him a break he just killed 108 people to see this reunion and she’s just staring silently, ofc he's a little pissy about it. To wrap it up, here’s some of my favorite Telemachus Penelope reunion scenes because anyone who can read this and say he doesn’t love her makes me sad.

Fitzgerald: “Back with me! Telemakhos, more sweet to me than sunlight!  I thought I should not see you again, ever, after you took the ship that night to Pylos—  against my will, with not a word! you went  for news of your dear father. Tell me now of everything you sawl"  But he made answer: "Mother, not now. You make me weep.  My heart already aches—I came near death at sea.”

Literally mom stop crying you’re going to make me cry and I've been through so much, angsty teen behavior. Also look at her! She loves him! That's her boy! And that's his mom!

Pope: "Light of my eyes! he comes! unhoped-for joy!  Has Heaven from Pylos brought my lovely boy?  So snatch'd from all our cares !  —Tell, hast thou known Thy father's fate?  and tell me all thy own."  "Oh, dearest! most revered of woman-kind!  Cease with those tears to melt a manly mind,"  Replied the prince: "nor be our fates deplored,  From death and treason to thy arms restored.”

Brb fucking sobbing I love them leave them alone. Unhoped-for joy is fucking heartbreaking when you think about what Penelope's been through. Although peep the toxic masculinity at the end there. Read Pope. This whole long ass essay was begging you to read the Pope translation. Here's a cookie for making it to the end I love the odyssey and if nobody reads this i will be sad 🍪

[leynaeithnea]

I've already spoken about this several times, so this isn't the first but it will also not be the last. (Yeah, I really will not shut up about this lol)

The way the larger fandom treats Penelope just genuinely bothers me.

I've already touched on this one before, but she's either the "Spartan-trained man-punching strong dominant wife" which is one, entirely out of character, two, people only characterize her as for the sake of the weird Girlboss x Malewife trope. I mean, fine, you can like that trope, but stop forcing it onto characters who barely even fit the mold.

Or the "kind loving perfect wife who remains unaffected by everything and only exists to comfort everyone."

And it just... It irks me so bad, because why is quite literally every other character, and yes, I mean every character, (Odysseus, Telemachus, Athena, Poseidon, Polyphemus, Circe, Calypso), allowed to have trauma but her?

And most of the time, it's for the sake of making her the caretaker, the one who comforts everyone, the perfect wife and mother.

And I understand if the fic is hurt/comfort, I understand that most of those fics have a typical comforter/caretaker archetype, but, that's literally all she is.

And it just undermines her entire character, undermines all of her complexity. This is a woman who spent twenty years waiting for her husband, ten years wondering if he might have died at war, another ten wondering if he was swallowed by the sea.

This is a woman who raised her son and kept her husband's kingdom afloat, all alone for twenty years, in a period where misogyny was heavy towards women.

This is a woman who spent most likely five years unsafe in her own home, disturbed by suitors constantly trying to gain her hand in marriage. (And if we're going through EPIC specifically — this situation was much worse, considering Xenia seemed to be non-existent in the musical).

And in the Odyssey, this is a woman who prayed for Artemis to kill her.

And the way all of this is just ignored, thrown under everything in order of making her the perfect badass wife or the untouchable caretaker just bothers me so so much.