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queendaeron1 · 13 days ago

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Adding this to this already very long post:

F&B is THE canon yes but TPATQ and The Rogue Prince are still canon save for a few minor changes that were explicitly made. F&B isn’t just an extension of the content: it’s also an extension of the way misogynistic narratives were constructed around “problematic” women

“The novellas are drafts” well first of all they’re not. But even if they were, there’s a reason GRRM felt the need to flesh them out. They’re basically concise chronicles, just the main factual elements of the story. But in fact reading them actually sheds a lot of light on “complex” matters like the dragonseeds that I explained here. Which is actually extremely easy to analyse once you start using common sense

Notice how Rhaenyra is so much more likeable in TPATQ a text where the focus is actually on her and far less on the sources. And those “sources” aren’t just sources they’re characters with agendas. Wdym you give credence to EUSTACE when he was everywhere BUT in the room?

Now Daemon:

Now something needs to be clarified about Daemon: he did NOT know that Ulf/Hugh had betrayed them. He believed House Velaryon still supported Rhaenyra. He probably thought Sunfyre was dead and even said Aegon II would be dealt with in time because he wasn’t a real threat

He didn’t know about the fall of Dragonstone or Corlys switching sides. He thought Ulf/Hugh would handle the situation in the south, that Addam was still in KL and he underestimated how tense things were there. He was OBLIVIOUS!

Maidenpool didn’t know either and Daemon had completely cut himself off from the world at Harrenhal so no way he knew. That’s why he thought Rhaenyra was insane and for no reason. Because he simply did not saw that letter coming. Mooton didn’t say anything about it and we know that he would’ve panicked if he had known

So yeah he chose not to save his wife because he didn’t think she needed saving in the first place☠️ By taking down Aemond he thought his fam would be safe. The man was really tone deaf especially after losing kids

He was VERY depressed and I don’t understand why so many people dismiss that cause that’s literally why he died ☠️ it doesn’t have shit to do with glory, the battle above gods eye remained a mystery for a LONG time!!

I always found Rhaenyra’s supposed rant about Nettles suspicious Not only does it seem completely out of character, but there’s also no cited source to back it up. Precisely because it never happened. Rhaenyra never said any of that and Mysaria was NOT THERE

For starters, Mysaria—who was NEVER officially part of the Black Council—suddenly appears in front of the lords, and for some reason, Rhaenyra supposedly needed this one extra reason to justify ordering Nettles’ execution. This is in stark contrast to Addam Velaryon, whose ARREST she ordered without hesitation after the council’s deliberations, even though his dragon was right there in King’s Landing. Yet Joffrey, who actually had a seat on the council as Prince of Dragonstone, is never even mentioned in this account… Another detail I thought about: no one on the council gave any reaction or answer to Mysaria’s intervention, which is something very strange: Torrhen Manderly was known to dislike Lyseni. Mysaria was a Lyseni woman: he WOULD have said something. No one would’ve taken the Consort’s former mistress seriously if she just pulled up like that and said that. Let’s be serious for a second. Why do you think GRRM explicitly said a few pages prior that she never sat in the council? Why did he make it clear that Rhaenyra and the Blacks had NO TIME to discuss the matter thoroughly?

Eustace provides no source for Rhaenyra’s alleged words. In fact, the language he attributes to her sounds VERY similar to his own descriptions of the Northerners, who don’t follow the faith of the Seven—while Rhaenyra herself has never expressed such sentiments anywhere else in the text. It doesn’t align with her character AT ALL. Why would she accuse someone of sorcery when she’s literally Visenya’s most ardent stan? Why would she let Jace organise the Red Sowing, allowing bastards to claim dragons? Why would she doubt the parentage of a girl who was born on Driftmark of all places? (You’ll say: because Nettles was black. Yes, but that’s something that would only bother a Green leaning Septon, not a Valyrian whose sons look like Rivermen…) Why would she suddenly change her mind about Nettles’ claim to her dragon? Why would she care about ANYONE being a bastard when the true problem was that she didn’t know these people, and that the one she knew the “most”, had just fled before she could even question him?

When Addam fled before she could QUESTION him, it (in her eyes) confirmed her suspicions. Time was running out, the council was panicking—Tumbleton was closer to KL than Maidenpool was, and at that point, Rhaenyra believed that at least 3 dragonriders had turned against her. She had no way of knowing where Addam was heading. She couldn’t afford to take any risks. “Best take no chance”. It was a regrettable sacrifice they felt they had to make, believing the Greens’ dragons were only a day away at best from KL

Did Rhaenyra truly say those words?

In The Princess and the Queen, the novella centred around Rhaenyra and Alicent’s dynamic pre and during DotD, this entire conversation doesn’t exist. Mysaria is barely mentioned, and most importantly—Eustace wasn’t even there in the room. He provides no explanation as to where he got this information “this one told me this, the other, that”

For those who don’t know: TPATQ was already a part of the completed text covering the Dance in f&b. However, GRRM and his editors had to edit some parts to fit in a novella format, for the anthology Dangerous Women, which focuses on the different types of dangerous women, whether they’re villains, or VILIFIED. The final text appears in f&b, and THIS book explores the theme of medieval historiography. The reason why I use the novellas as a tool of comparison for f&b is because TPATQ is actually about Rhaenyra, while f&b is also about how she’s PERCEIVED AND DEPICTED by external sources. F&B is a lesson about the methods of medieval historiography and how they shape the figures of “problematic” women (like Rhaenyra, Mysaria, even Nettles… all in different ways, but still in a way or another) in a patriarchal society. So when something from Eustace’s account in F&B pops up but it doesn’t appear in TPATQ, it means you seriously need to consider its veracity… just look at the STARK difference between f&b! Rhaenyra and TPATQ! Rhaenyra. TPATQ! Rhaenyra is much more likeable, precisely because the focus is much more on her rather than on the sources who painted her portrait…

Rhaenyra ordered Nettles’ execution because:

1/ Addam had been warned and fled, which (in her eyes) meant Corlys had betrayed her—and may have even known about Tumbleton before she did, for all she knew. Also note that Corlys was said to refuse to speak a single word which means that all Rhaenyra knew was that he told his heir to flee at the same time that 2 of her dragonriders betrayed her. And still he won’t tell her if Addam is a threat or not… I’m sorry but I would be “paranoid” too especially since Rhaenyra and Corlys’ relationship had kind of reached its breaking point. There was no trust between them

2/ Nettles had a dragon, and Rhaenyra couldn’t risk her staying in KL in case she’d turn out to be a traitor. Rhaenyra herself couldn’t fly to Maidenpool—Syrax was needed to defend the city, especially since Addam had disappeared. Also the people in KL SAW Addam leave, and they didn’t see him coming back. The atmosphere was already extremely tense because of the fear of the nearing green armies: imagine if the smallfolk had seen their last adult dragon leave? It would’ve left them COMPLETELY EXPOSED. The ideal ingredient to trigger other bloody riots. When you can’t protect your people, at least give them the illusion that you are protecting them lol

3/ Time was running out. She couldn’t afford to interrogate Nettles. “Best take no chance” again, as Torrhen Manderly said

Rhaenyra sent the warrant for Nettles ONLY AFTER Addam fled before she could question him, and Corlys refused to speak and tell her wether Addam intended to join the two betrayers, or even Nettles and Aemond. It may seem far fetched but the whole point is that she DID NOT have time to express caution and wait. She had to imagine every possible scenario

Mysaria’s role in all this was simple: Rhaenyra’s letter stated that Nettles was Daemon’s lover and therefore guilty of high treason. Eustace, ever biased, framed it as if Rhaenyra was manipulated into this decision: because of Daemon’s words (A Queen’s words, a whore’s work). But Daemon is not reliable here: he’s blaming Mysaria because he’s emotionally unable to blame his own wife. The letter is the reason why that rumour spread. But Mysaria WAS NOT with Rhaenyra during the council session! Eustace fabricated a supposed conversation within the Black Council: he wanted to fill in the gaps, using whatever little information he had. But more importantly, he inserted his own biases. And how strong they are…

Eustace was the one who described Nettles as having a slit nose (a punishment for THIEVES)—no other source confirms this. He himself describes Nettles as an unlikely paramour for a prince. Remember when “Rhaenyra” said that it was obvious that Nettles had no Valyrian blood and Daemon would NEVER take such a “creature” as his lover? Can you see it now? Connect the dots? If Nettles had been white, Eustace would’ve never claimed she had a slit nose… what Nettles looked like FOR CERTAIN was: skinny, small, black girl, young, black hair and brown eyes. Maybe crooked teeth, because it’s not like she had any access to dental care, but that’s all. What I’m 100% certain is that her physical appearance has NOTHING to do with whether she was Daemon’s lover or not. That man probably fucked half of Essos when he used to travel there at the beginning of his brother’s reign: I’m sure he made a lot of fine encounters with many people of different backgrounds

He was the one who claimed Daemon was in Mysaria’s thrall—just as he later describes him (through “Rhaenyra”) as being under Nettles’ thrall. And then proceeded to fatshame Mysaria in the VERY same page he did Rhaenyra. IT’S ALWAYS the same range of vocabulary. Spells, thralls, creature, savages, cold/soft voice/eyes…. the way he describes Rhaenyra’s voice “cold as ice” is exactly how he describes Cregan Stark’s cold eyes. In both cases: he can’t stand their asses (Rhaenyra is a woman pretender, Cregan is a northerner who doesn’t follow the Seven). In any case, Mysaria didn’t say anything and didn’t sabotage Rhaenyra because SHE. WAS. NOT. THERE. Just like Rhaenyra she was VILIFIED by the men around her

Look at the pattern. Eustace paints women he disapproves of as:

1/Manipulative “witches” (Mysaria and Nettles)

2/Unattractive (all three women)

3/Promiscuous (Rhaenyra had bastards, Mysaria was a consort’s whore, Nettles allegedly resorted to prostitution to buy sheep) Gyldayn puts forward the idea that Nettles sold her body to buy the sheep she fed Sheepstealer: how creative… she probably worked for a shepherd or sold oysters of the docks. She lived on Driftmark: I’m pretty sure she didn’t lack for small jobs. Even we do know that she was cunning and perseverant

It’s blatant racism and misogyny, especially when it comes to Nettles. It’s also xenophobia to Mysaria: Lysene women are often depicted as seductresses and witches in ASOIAF, but it kind of extends to foreigners in general. It’s easy for Eustace to say that Mysaria enthralled Daemon, which is why she would claim that Nettles enthralled Daemon as well. Again: WITCHES vibe. Mysaria really gives off witch vibes. And his whole rant screams anti blackness too!

Did Rhaenyra actually believe Daemon and Nettles were lovers?

No. And frankly, that wasn’t even her priority. Her people were being burned alive, 3 of her dragons had just been lost, and she had to keep her remaining allies in line. To do that, she had to hide the truth and this is what we’re going to discuss from now on

In the TPATQ it goes like this: she needed a pretext to convince the Mootons to obey her without revealing how dire her situation truly was. She claimed adultery because it IS high treason. And the Mootons, unlike her council, weren’t even aware of Tumbleton yet. That was the whole point. They could not be, and must not be. Adultery was only a PRETEXT. Grave enough, but it still doesn’t lead one to realise that they have 3 maybe 4 hostile dragons above them in the skies. No one in there cared whether it was true or not: a Lord receive such a command, he must execute it. Unless he wishes to be attainted. And the fact that this comes from a woman makes it easier to believe. Jealousy is the woman’s condition. That’s why they didn’t suspect anything else more sinister. They did not care about the rest, they were afraid of Rhaenyra, but even more of Daemon AND HIS DRAGON

I think Rhaenyra thought that they would obey because it wouldn’t be their first time in this kind of situation. Jonah Mooton was Princess Saera’s lover during the reign of Jaehaerys. Jaehaerys himself KILLED another of Saera’s lovers, Braxton Beesbury, under his OWN ROOF, because of Braxton’s affair with Saera. It is similar to the situation Rhaenyra CRAFTED with Nettles. Jaehaerys married Jonah Mooton to a woman, to sort of make him repent for his sins. So the Mootons found it wiser to keep low profile ever since. The line “the old king would’ve never asked this of any man of honour” is actually hilarious in hindsight, because the old king LITERALLY did the same thing… so the “guest right” argument suddenly sounds very shallow. They were simply afraid and I don’t even blame them. But it was more about fear than about loyalty and conscience The Mootons had begged Rhaenyra to send dragons; she sent them two, and they were happy about it. But now she was not only ordering them to kill a dragonrider, but also send the other one back home, leaving them exposed to Aemond once more. THAT’S WHY SHE WAS SO AFRAID!

Daemon, on the other hand, did believe Rhaenyra had gone mad and that Mysaria had poisoned her mind against him (kind of like when the people of Duskendale accused Lady Serala of manipulating her husband Lord Darklyn, leading to the Defiance of Duskendale, leading to Aerys to annihilate the whole place… but since they LOVED their Lord, they refused to blame him and scapegoated his FOREIGN wife: she was from Myr and they called her the Lace Serpent. Mysaria was from Lys and she was called the White Worm. Doesn’t it sound a bit redundant to you?) But let’s be honest—Daemon was a bit of a fool for not questioning why Rhaenyra was acting so drastically. He should have known something was seriously wrong. Instead of flying back to King’s Landing to get answers, he assumed the worst and abandoned her entirely because he had lost trust in her (the same way Corlys distrusted Rhaenyra so much that he accepted the risk of being arrested and executed) And the raven Rhaenyra sent WAS NOT ADDRESSED TO HIM 90% of this fandom forgot that detail: she was indirectly accusing him of adultery, yet she wasn’t even reaching out for him. She didn’t order him to kill Nettles, that was meant for Lord Manfryd. Daemon was NEVER meant to know that, that’s the whole point. The choice was not HIS to make and he knew that because he literally told the Maester who gave him the letter, that he was a good man for going behind the lord’s back I also think there’s a small parallel between Corlys/Addam and Daemon/Nettles. Both defied Rhaenyra even though Rhaenyra had never asked them to make a choice in the first place. The difference was that Daemon didn’t defy her directly because he was totally unaware of the catastrophic situation she was in Which leads to my next point: once you untangle all of those historiographical elements and their sources, it goes like this: Letter with the mistress high treason declaration->Daemon blames Mysaria->the rumour spread after his death->Mushroom brings up the rumours in his testimony AFTER THE WAR without adding any of his usual sordid details, because he wasn’t there either+Eustace (who was not in the council room when Rhaenyra asked her men what to do after Tumbleton) writes his own reconstruction AFTER THE WAR (aka “Rhaenyra’s” rant) based on the rumours he heard AND his own assumptions and biases and RACISM and CLASSISM and MISOGYNY->Gyldayn puts Eustace and Mushroom together->he brings up Maester Norren’s chronicles and their infamous bathing-together part, to back up this story. Everything started from the letter. Rhaenyra did not hear of the rumours, she CREATED them You will notice how none of this is mentioned in TPATQ for the mere reason that it actually focuses on Rhaenyra and not on the men who wrote her story Mushroom’s contribution to this whole mess doesn’t exist either. Norren’s description of the events is also nowhere to be seen, save for the conversation between Mootons and his men, and when he gives the letter to Daemon Basically, the allegation of adultery is mentioned : when they receive the letter; when the singers claimed Daemon spent the rest of his days with Nettles. And that’s all

What I’m saying is: the fake conversation between Mysaria and Rhaenyra did not happen. It was fabricated by Eustace (who is the source here) based on what he knew and thought. He’s the one speaking through Rhaenyra. She did not act upon jealousy, she and her council did with what they could, hoping it would work, and she didn’t actually believe that Daemon had cheated on her. This is how men wrote about her because queens are jealous and emotionally volatile and they can’t even control their consort’s hungers and they’re easily manipulated and and and ——- so they shouldn’t rule…. A Septon being racist, misogynistic, classist, xenophobic… who happens to be the ONLY AND ABSENT source behind this conversation…. doesn’t that make SO MUCH MORE sense to you? Instead of Rhaenyra who’s constantly misperceived? This conversation is what we call an etiological tale: it means that this is Eustace trying to explain the events that occurred in the Black Council. Sara Snow is also an etiological element. Etiology is EVERYWHERE in historiography

Why did Daemon sacrifice himself?

Daemon thought that:

1/Rhaenyra still had 4 adult dragons (2 at Tumbleton, 2 in KL)

2/The Greens at Tumbleton would be dealt with, which meant Daeron would fall. Vermithor and Silverwing were handling the southern “front”

3/She still had the Velaryons (she didn’t, because she had just imprisoned Corlys). But KL was basically an open bar after that. Unbeknownst to Daemon…

4/Baela was chilling on Dragonstone. The Fall of Dragonstone happened around the same time but no one was aware

He believed that if he could take out Vhagar, the Blacks’ victory would be assured, and his family would be safe. Remember when he voiced that the Usurper must be hidden somewhere “hiding under some rock”, and they thought that Sunfyre was pretty much out of the picture. Basically Aegon and his dragon, who murdered Rhaenyra, wasn’t considered to be a threat at all. Daemon could have never imagined what would happen to Rhaenyra 5 months after his own death

But he didn’t realise how wrong he was. He fought and died thinking Rhaenyra still had control over the war—when in reality, she was already losing. That’s what makes his death so tragic. And so dumb lol. He died because of MISCOMMUNICATION and MISUNDERSTANDING. Because it was avoidable

He died thinking Joffrey would be King, that his 3 remaining children would be safe if he accomplished this deed. My opinion about this is: this isn’t really an abandonment. He felt like he HAD to kill Aemond and Vhagar. He used himself as a bait for 13 days. He knew his dragon wouldn’t make it out alive. He made it clear that he didn’t intend to survive either. All of that was triggered by a letter he was NEVER supposed to read…

Daemon didn’t just throw himself into the fight for glory or because he was heartbroken (since some claim that he only did that to redeem himself and save Nettles, the only one he truly loved. An affair with Nettles would literally be the OPPOSITE of a redemption arc for him: sleeping with a 17yo girl and cheating on his wife… that’s exactly what he used to do in his youth. We’re circling back)… he did it because he thought he HAD to do it for his family It was his duty for the people he loved…. And I include Nettles here, because no matter what happened he TRULY cared about her And to be honest, I think I would’ve done the same thing he did, from HIS perspective and knowledge (which was limited) of the situation that is. He had the choice between: Going back to his wife, who had been manipulated so bad she signed the death warrant of a dragonrider in the middle of a civil war where they DESPERATELY NEED dragons, out of jealousy. Said wife had 4 adult dragons+ Moondancer and Tyraxes; Two dragons guarding the city; Two dragons defending Tumbleton south of KL; The Velaryon fleet led by Alyn and the loyalty of Corlys Velaryon; He didn’t know about the growing unrest in KL which means he believed Rhaenyra was doing okay; Dragonstone was still held by the Blacks; Aegon II was irrelevant and maybe even dead; he trusted the Gold Cloaks; killing Aemond would pretty much mean ensuring victory On the other hand, Nettles : had only a dragon to defend her; had no home since Driftmark had been sacked; would be hunted down by Rhaenyra and her MULTIPLE dragons; would have to hide for the rest of her life in ugly mountains, alone. But at least she still had a small chance and since he knew she was a clever and autonomous girl, he hoped she would be safe (she was safe, with her dragon. But her dragon also represented her biggest weakness, and she paradoxically was in danger. Nettles’ fate shows how much having a dragon is a liability in a world that has no place for them. Her fate is also tragic because she spent the rest of her life in loneliness. Yes she was worshipped by the clansmen, but what happened once her dragon died? Her role in the narrative has nothing to do with evil mad queen Rhaenyra. Both of them are in fact the scapegoats) So yeah, SUICIDAL Daemon not going back to Rhaenyra DOES make sense: he felt like she didn’t need him, but he still had to kill Aemond to actually make sure of that… He let Nettles go to give her at least a chance at survival, but even that wasn’t a guarantee since he thought his wife was winning the war and would RULE No wonder why the man was so depressed: he literally felt like he’d just lost everything because of 5 sentences in a letter THAT HE WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO READ I’ll say it again, to hammer it down: Rhaenyra didn’t order HIM to kill Nettles, she ordered Lord Mooton. Really not the same thing

He genuinely thought his sacrifice would turn the tide. And when he fell into the Gods Eye, barely anyone witnessed it. Aemond’s body was found years later, along with Dark Sister. But Daemon? He was gone. For all he knew, people could’ve thought that HE was the one who was shamefully killed. He just wanted to die and do his duty

Ultimately, he miscalculated

And Rhaenyra NEVAH said that stuff

#fire and blood #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #pro rhaenyra targaryen #rhaenyra targaryen #daemon targaryen #pro team black #team black #queen rhaenyra #daemon rhaenyra #historiography #the princess and the queen #he offed himself thinking that they still had the three other dragonseeds #daemon thinks his wifey hates him #misogyny #stop fanon #wiki warriors

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