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queendaeron1 · 23 days ago

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Rhaenyra Targaryen, the Male Gaze and How HBO Undermined the Dance;

House of the Dragon, HBO’s prequel to the widely-discussed Game of Thrones, promised a return to political intrigue and emotional depth through the rise and fall of House Targaryen in the Dance of the Dragons.

At its center stood Rhaenyra Targaryen: a character positioned as a feminist figure, a mother, and a queen. But most of all, someone who we can consider to be a challenger to patriarchy within the oppressive institution of Westeros.

However, as the first season unfolded and promotional material for the second gained traction, a troubling pattern emerged: the show is largely told through a male gaze perspective, and in doing so, it has compromised the complexity and dignity of Rhaenyra’s story.

The whitewashing of the Greens as characters within the story, both narratively and literally, further reinforces this distortion, turning what could have been a raw, tragic tale of female power and resistance into another chapter of sanitized palace drama favoring patriarchal narratives, to reinforce the mold that we have seen in society for eons, into today.

In this little thing I’ve come up with, we are going to discuss some things I have thought about for a while and why I think they are important to be pointed out for austerity, peace of mind and of course, discourse.

To define the “male gaze” is to understand it not merely as the act of looking, but as a system of storytelling that positions women as objects rather than agents. As characters whose primary function is to reflect or provoke male emotion, desire, or violence.

The male gaze dictates not just what is shown on screen, but how it is shown: who gets interiority, who is allowed complexity, and whose suffering matters. In the case of House of the Dragon, the male gaze insidiously shapes the portrayal of Rhaenyra Targaryen, despite the show’s premise being centered on her fight for legitimacy in a deeply misogynistic world.

While House of the Dragon appears on the surface to champion a feminist narrative, which to some degree is true, as the plot points are still hit, it doesn’t understand how to tell a story that understands the underlying crux of the story.

Rhaenyra is named heir, challenges gender roles, and occupies the symbolic center of the Dance of the Dragons yet this framing is ultimately superficial. Everything is somehow taken away from Rhaenyra.

The deeper narrative attention consistently drifts toward the men around her: Daemon’s volatile moods are explored with nuance and sympathy; Viserys’ failures are treated as tragic rather than negligent;

Criston Cole’s escalating cruelty is granted emotional justification; even the trauma experienced by Alicent’s sons is shown with more visceral weight than Rhaenyra’s repeated losses.

In this light, the show gestures toward feminism but stops short of actually honoring Rhaenyra’s arc. Her storyline is rarely told from within. Instead, she is filtered through male emotion, often infantilized, occasionally eroticized especially in how her relationship with Daemon is handled.

Rather than the political alliance and shared ambition that Fire & Blood implies, the show presents Daemon as a domineering, sometimes abusive figure whose inner turmoil is given far more attention than Rhaenyra’s own political or maternal grief, when that isn’t even the case in the books.

Scenes such as the infamous choking incident are never followed up with serious narrative reflection; they simply pass, the way women’s pain often does in male-authored media. And perpetuate the need to use pain, especially ones inflicted by men, as a means to put forth a woman towards a path of empowerment.

This is never the case when we first meet Rhaenyra in The Princess and the Queen nor in Fire and Blood. There, she is not a hesitant, whispering figure in the background of her own rebellion.

We witness her go from a child who had just lost her mother, thrust into a position she never wished to be in, into a woman grown, a dragon heiress who would one day be queen with fire in her blood and steel in her resolve.

Of course, as a protagonist, Rhaenyra is not perfect, but that’s what made her so good, so enjoyable. She is formidable. She is politically strategic, at times ruthless, and deeply aware of the cost of power in a world built to resist her.

The show dilutes that presence. Rhaenyra is reduced to a reactive figure, often defined by how she responds or fails to respond to male action. She weeps, whispers, wavers, but rarely acts with the same command of narrative space that her male counterparts are afforded.

The storytelling undermines her claim not just to the throne, but to emotional authority in her own tale. Her grief over the deaths of her children is given fleeting moments, while Daemon’s brooding, Aegon’s volatility, and Aemond’s trauma receive extended screen time and richer cinematographic treatment. This is not a coincidence, of course. It is a re-centering of the male gaze.

The same narrative flattening is applied to Alicent Hightower, who in the source material is as politically ambitious and calculating as Rhaenyra, if not more so, as her greed permits her to do as she wishes.

Alicent Hightower is not merely a mother; she is a power broker who plays the court with ruthless precision, leveraging her femininity, religion, and family status to shape the realm. But in the show, she is rewritten through a softer, more palatable frame.

In the show, she is a woman coerced by her father, motivated by fear, and victimized by circumstance. Her ambition is made sympathetic by aligning it with “maternal duty” rather than self-driven power, once again sanitizing a woman’s desire to rule in a way that appeals to patriarchal comfort.

She is not allowed to be vicious or Machiavellian without apology, to be a woman who stands on her own convictions and her own choices, to wield her influence and her ruthlessness and yet the men around her are, constantly.

This reluctance to portray Rhaenyra and Alicent as fully autonomous, politically potent women is not a minor storytelling flaw, when the story is about their identity as women in power, is a fundamental failure of perspective.

The series chooses to reframe its female leads through lenses that diminish their agency, instead giving narrative weight to the emotional journeys of the men around them.

This failure to grant Rhaenyra and Alicent the sharpness, ugliness, and command they wield in Fire & Blood reveals how deeply the male gaze has shaped the adaptation, not just in what is shown, but in whose pain matters, and whose story is truly being told.

One of the most jarring narrative distortions in House of the Dragon lies in its treatment of Daemon Targaryen who is a character who, in the source material, is complex, morally gray, and deeply loyal to Rhaenyra’s cause.

He is a rogue, yes. He is a warrior and a prince who walks the edge of insanity and control, but he is also a devoted partner to her in every way he could be and is her most precious champion of her claim, besides her three eldest sons and the Velaryons.

Their relationship in Fire & Blood is not clean or easy, but it is forged in ambition, shared grief, and political understanding. Yet, the show recasts Daemon Targaryen not as a partner, but as a volatile man whose emotional swings often destabilize the narrative and Rhaenyra’s autonomy in their relationship.

The infamous scene in which Daemon chokes Rhaenyra, an outlandish, outrageous invention of the show, epitomizes this shift from textured political alliance to patriarchal spectacle. It does not deepen our understanding of their bond, but also replaces political intrigue with male rage.

It prioritizes the shock value of gendered violence over the slow burn of strategic partnership. Worse, the moment passes without consequence. Rhaenyra is not allowed to respond, not meaningfully.

Her silence, likely intended to convey strength or shock, is left uncontextualized, flattening her into a passive figure in her own story. This is not a woman in command; this is a woman narratively benched by the men around her.

This sidelining becomes even more egregious when we consider how other key characters, particularly her children are treated. Jacaerys Velaryon (Jace), her eldest son and heir, is perhaps the most underwritten and underappreciated casualty of the adaptation.

His story is one of the most disappointing arcs in the show as they reductively shaped it around insecurity, resentment, and a judgmental preoccupation with his mother’s sexuality.

Unlike his book counterpart in Fire & Blood, who demonstrates early political acumen, a strong sense of duty, and even proposes the pragmatic idea to call upon the dragonseeds in the war effort.

The show reduces Jace to a brooding, petulant figure whose primary emotional beats are rooted in angst over his bastardy and open discomfort with Rhaenyra’s romantic and sexual autonomy.

Rather than portraying a young man shaped by the political machinations of court and the burdens of leadership, the adaptation leans heavily into a shallow depiction of maternal slut-shaming and identity anxiety.

This simplification not only undermines his potential as a compelling political actor in the Dance of the Dragons, but also distorts the more progressive, strategic character originally outlined by GRRM, flattening Jace into yet another frustrated boy lashing out at his mother, rather than an heir trying to unify a fractured realm.

In the books, Jace is the golden son: brave, intelligent, politically adept, and loyal. He is raised with the weight of leadership on his shoulders, groomed not just to inherit a throne but to reshape the realm in his mother’s image. And more than ever, Jace knows that he must step up, in order to raise the claim of his mother in her darkest hours, in her time of need.

During the short time of his life, Jace attempts diplomatic missions, shows compassion, exercises caution, and displays the political instinct his family needs.

He is the kind of character whose goodness makes his later death a profound tragedy for the Blacks. That is why he was the kind of prince that Westeros can only mourn for, the king that could have been greater than any one that could have come before him.

And yet, House of the Dragon has chosen to leave Jacaerys Velaryon almost entirely underdeveloped. His motivations, ideals, and inner life are barely explored, despite his role as heir to Rhaenyra and a key political figure in the coming war.

His intelligence, compassion, and diplomatic skill, all central to his character in Fire & Blood are scarcely given narrative room to breathe. In contrast, we’re already seeing those same qualities being quietly reassigned to characters on the Green side, particularly Alicent’s sons, Aemond and Daeron Targaryen.

Jace’s defining achievement in the source material, his diplomatic mission across Westeros to secure support for his mother’s claim, is one of the few moments of true political success in the early war.

He is strategic, persuasive, and deeply aware of the realm’s fragile loyalties. Yet the show has given Aemond far more screen time, stylized presence, and emotional layering, allowing him to dominate the narrative space.

Aemond, who in the book is characterized by cruelty and warmongering, is repackaged onscreen as a calculating, tortured antihero. His smirks and stares are filmed like tragic poetry, while Jace, whose choices actually shape the course of the war is left in the background.

The political weight and emotional significance that should belong to Jace’s arc are instead redirected toward framing Aemond as a compelling rival, rather than a dangerous provocateur.

Meanwhile, Daeron, who has yet to appear onscreen, has been cast as a soft-featured, unassuming young boy, which is a creative choice that points toward a sanitized portrayal. One which does not make any sense whatsoever.

In the source material, Daeron is a dragonrider responsible for one of the most horrifying acts of the war: the burning of countless civilians in the Riverlands and the Reach. And yet everything about the show’s setup suggests a rebranding from war criminal to misunderstood golden boy.

Jace’s honor, his capacity to unite lords, his promise as a future king, these are being quietly lifted from the Blacks and repurposed to create a more emotionally balanced (or morally confused) version of the Greens.

The effect is not just revisionist, but it actively undermines the narrative of a woman and her son fighting to preserve legitimacy in a world that is built to deny it to them, a world which claims that they cannot rule because they are “tarnished” by womanhood and their appearance.

This reallocation of virtue is no coincidence. Jace’s integrity, empathy, and diplomacy traits that should make him central to the Black cause and deeply beloved by the audience are being withheld from him and redistributed to Green characters in order to balance audience sympathy.

Aemond receives more screen time, character nuance, and emotional grounding; Aegon is given trauma to justify his depravity; and Daeron, it seems, will be handed the nobility that rightfully belongs to Rhaenyra’s heir.

This erasure is not limited to individuals, it is structural. Rhaenyra’s camp, the Blacks, are portrayed as increasingly unstable, volatile, or sidelined. Which misses the entire point of the story that has been expressed as a story against patriarchy’s greed and violence.

Yet this is what we have. Daemon is violent and unpredictable. Rhaenyra is passive and grieving. Jace is barely present. The rest of the Blacks are considered NPCs who can just be rewritten out whenever the writers want to.

Meanwhile, the Greens are made legible and sympathetic: Alicent is a victim, her sons are misunderstood, and her cause is painted as a tragic miscommunication rather than a coup.

The writers have actively softened their crimes, rewritten their motivations, and blurred the lines of accountability all while depriving the Blacks of their emotional and political center.

In doing so, the show has not only distorted the source material, but gutted the emotional heart of the Dance of the Dragons. It has taken a story about female resistance, familial loyalty, and political tragedy, and filtered it once again through the familiar lens of male dysfunction and patriarchal storytelling.

Daemon is no longer Rhaenyra’s sword, he is her burden. Jace is no longer her light, he is fading into narrative irrelevance. And Rhaenyra herself is no longer a dragon queen with fire in her voice.

Instead, she is rendered voiceless, watching the men around her shape her fate and steal her story. And the Blacks and her movement against the patriarchy is no longer about her rights, it's about the Greens continuing the male gaze and institutions of patriarchy.

In parallel to the diminishing of Rhaenyra Targaryen’s complexity is the glaring whitewashing of the Greens, both visually and thematically.

From casting to characterization, the series makes a series of aesthetic and narrative choices that reframe the Greens not as antagonists or political usurpers, but as fragile, sympathetic victims of circumstance. This is a shift that subtly reinforces white Eurocentric, patriarchal values under the guise of moral nuance.

Visually, the show casts Alicent Hightower and her children as far more pale-skinned, delicate-featured, and conventionally attractive by Western standards. This immediately aligns them with traditional cinematic codes of innocence and legitimacy.

They are framed in soft lighting, draped in modest greens and golds, often filmed in moments of prayer or quiet vulnerability. These aesthetic choices prime the audience to feel for them, to perceive them as human first and political actors second.

This becomes even more problematic when contrasted with Rhaenyra’s children by Laenor Velaryon, who are not only different in looks and in heritage, but are also repeatedly subjected to suspicion and ridicule for their appearance.

Even as they themselves are white, they are subjected to suspicion, because they do not meet the standards, which Alicent’s children do have. Even at the likely notion that they could have been bi-racial and claimed more features from their mother, they are viewed as someone else, rather than the princes they are.

Despite even Fire & Blood suggesting the possibility that Laenor may still be their father or at the very least, that Westerosi gossip may not be the truth , the show plays into the optics: the boys are visibly coded as “other” and that being used against them, children, marked as evidence of illegitimacy. One which Alicent and co., use to their advantage greatly.

The camera lingers on their faces in scenes of tension. Their paternity is a punchline, a political liability, a weapon used against Rhaenyra again and again. The implicit message is unsettling and familiar: specific features are equated with truth and purity and any sense of them being the other is viewed with deception, scandal, and instability.

The implications deepen when we factor in how the show treats Daemon’s daughters, Baela and Rhaena Targaryen. In the books, Daemon is deeply affectionate toward them. He is proud of their potential and mindful of their status.

Baela, in particular, plays a central role in the war, a dragonrider and political force in her own right. Yet the show sidelines them almost entirely, relegating them to the background, barely granting them dialogue, agency, or emotional depth.

Their Targaryen lineage is not centered. If anything, the show uses their Velaryon identity and weaponizes it against the Velaryon boys by the fandom and in effect against them, to cancel out their Targaryen identity.

Most critically, their Blackness, as young women of color descended from two powerful houses is visually present but narratively erased. That erasure is not incidental, of course.

If anything, it reflects a broader discomfort within the show’s framework when it comes to fully centering Black or brown characters as agents of political power and personal complexity.

Moreover, the show softens the political sharpness of Alicent Hightower, reimagining her not as the shrewd, calculating figure of Fire & Blood, but as a passive, pious woman coerced into power plays she never truly wanted.

The onscreen Alicent is forced to be a victim first to her father, then later a wife first and then a mother first, a queen second which is defined more by her Catholic-coded modesty and maternal anxiety than by ambition or strategic intelligence.

Her feud with Rhaenyra is framed less as a struggle for power and more as a tragic misunderstanding rooted in hurt feelings and miscommunication, in desire to be more than what Rhaenyra is.

This portrayal culminates in the infamous “misheard” deathbed whisper which is a transparent invention of the show in which Viserys allegedly names “Aegon” without clarity, thereby allowing Alicent to believe he was reversing his line of succession.

This moment is not just historically inaccurate within the world of Fire & Blood; it is politically dishonest. It transforms a deliberate act of usurpation. This is a coordinated, months-long conspiracy to crown Aegon over Rhaenyra into an emotionally ambiguous accident.

It allows Alicent to become a woman caught in grief, clinging to what she believes is a final wish, rather than a political architect of treason. In doing so, the show absolves her of true culpability and redirects narrative tension toward emotional confusion, not ideological conflict.

What was once a power grab becomes a soft, tragic fumble that is caused by someone’s bad decisions, calculations, a fib, a misunderstanding. The Greens, once usurpers, become mourners. Rhaenyra, once betrayed, becomes melodramatic.

This kind of narrative restructuring matters. It reshapes the viewer’s sense of justice and accountability. It tells us that Rhaenyra’s outrage is excessive, that her losses are personal but not political, and that the true story is not about a woman wronged, but a world misunderstood.

It flattens the raw, fiery heart of the Dance of the Dragons into a drama about feelings, not systems. And crucially, it does so by centering white pain, white beauty, and white innocence while sidelining the underlying issue of imposing the othering of many identities including that of Black and brown characters and punishing them for simply existing in defiance of it.

What’s most disheartening is that House of the Dragon had, at its foundation, the raw material for a genuinely feminist tragedy. Not one defined by hollow girlboss aesthetics or sanitized empowerment arcs, but a brutal, emotionally rich story about a woman born into a system designed to destroy her.

Rhaenyra’s arc in Fire & Blood is not about being flawless, nor is it about easy victories. It is about endurance. About the slow, devastating erosion of a woman’s power, not because she was weak, but because the world would not allow her to be strong on her own terms. Her tragedy is not that she failed, but that she was never allowed to be fully human: ambitious, flawed, grieving, angry and still worthy of the crown.

The story of Rhaenyra is one of resistance: a woman hemmed in by expectations, reduced by rumors, slandered for her sexuality, scrutinized for her body, and eventually broken by a society that demanded either perfection or silence from its women.

Her power was conditional. Her motherhood weaponized her. Her grief, politicized. She is not a tragic heroine because of her own moral collapse, but because no matter how hard she fought, no matter how much legitimacy she held, the weight of patriarchal tradition was always heavier.

And yet, the show resists this reading. Rather than lean into the complexity of female rage, such as Rhaenyra’s seething anger at her usurpation, the fury of a mother who has lost child after child, the righteous violence of a woman tired of appeasing a world that will not bend. The series sands down those edges.

It reduces her to silence, softness, and strategic restraint. Her pain is aestheticized, her decisions dulled. She becomes not a fire, she is not the dragon, but a symbol of how patriarchy views a woman, how they want a woman to be.

Patriarchy views women to be what they never are. And it is insulting. Women are expected to be mournful, quiet, and narratively submissive. They force Rhaenyra’s internal fire to be suppressed in favor of palatable, male-approved grief.

Moreover, another glaring imbalance in House of the Dragon is the way maternal nuance is afforded to Alicent Hightower but withheld from Rhaenyra Targaryen. While Alicent is allowed to be both a mother and a political player, framing her actions as rooted in maternal devotion, Rhaenyra's motherhood is often sidelined, weaponized, or stripped away entirely.

Alicent and her confidant Criston Cole are directly responsible for instilling the very insecurities in the Velaryon boys that the show later pins on Rhaenyra’s failure to coddle him or maintain a spotless reputation.

Yet Rhaenyra is never granted the emotional space to confront this; instead, she remains strangely empathetic toward Alicent, still haunted by the memory of a broken friendship while Alicent is permitted to nurse her grudges with righteous conviction.

If the roles were reversed, if Rhaenyra had emotionally manipulated or undermined Alicent’s children, the writing would almost certainly validate Alicent's anger as maternal instinct.

But in contrast, Rhaenyra is expected to endure betrayal, slut-shaming, and political sabotage without letting it define her, because her own personhood is repeatedly subordinated to the emotional arcs of others.

Alicent, who often functions as the fantasy of the ideal victim, one who is chaste, wounded, loyal, gets to be human. Rhaenyra, meanwhile, is left to carry the crown without ever being allowed to fully carry her own narrative.

Therefore, in parallel, the agents of the patriarchy, such as Alicent and her sons are recontextualized as sympathetic, misunderstood, and in many cases, victims themselves.

Alicent is no longer a woman actively playing the game of thrones, manipulating alliances, and orchestrating a coup; she is reimagined as a pious, regretful mother just trying to protect her children.

Her sons are not power-hungry usurpers, but traumatized boys lashed by a system they never asked for. In stripping them of their culpability and agency, the show doesn’t complicate them in any plausible way that GRRM had, if anything, it excuses them. Their decisions are softened, their violence sanitized, their betrayal turned into miscommunication.

In doing so, the show fails to deliver on its central thematic promise: to show how the patriarchy devours women in vastly different ways, how it forces some into monstrous ambition and others into saintly self-sacrifice.

It had the opportunity to interrogate how the structures of inheritance, motherhood, marriage, and power crush the women caught within them. Instead, House of the Dragon recycles the tired dichotomy we’ve seen too many times: the good mother vs. the mad queen.

It refuses to allow Rhaenyra to be both powerful and broken, both grieving and wrathful. It narrows her into digestible shapes, denying her the emotional contradiction that makes great female characters unforgettable.

What should have been a generational war shaped by ideology, betrayal, grief, and resistance is instead reframed as a tragic misreading. Somewhat of a petty feud between two women misunderstood by a dying king, which they magically transfer into their children.

The larger machinery of misogyny is blurred, the political stakes reduced to familial missteps. And in reorienting the audience’s empathy toward male characters invented by the show.

Aegon’s torment, Viserys’ suffering, Aemond’s resentment, the show sidelines the very woman whose name would one day inspire revolution in the dynasty and lead to countless women, who would inspire the birth of Daenerys Targaryen.

Rhaenyra Targaryen was never meant to be a martyr of miscommunication. Rather, she was meant to be a symbol of what it costs to challenge the patriarchal world as a woman who dares to lead.

And yet, in House of the Dragon, her legacy is not ignited, but dimmed. Not by fire and blood but by caution and compromise. A compromise which perpetuates, and keeps the patriarchy alive and well.

#hotd critical #asoiaf essay #asoiaf #fuck the patriarchy #misogyny #Rhaenyra’s mistake was not being born a king #hotd put too much focus on Young Rhaenyra’s relationship with daemon #sidelined Baela and Rhaena who are literally the reason why the guy who conquered Dorne is half Velaryon #honestly there’s too much to say #I agree with everything here #fire and blood #a song of ice and fire #rhaenyra targaryen deserves better

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queendaeron1 · 27 days ago

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I don't think I've ever seen someone analyse Rhaenyra and Nettles' roles in each other's narrative OUTSIDE of Daemon whom they both outlived

First of all, if you intend to read this, I VERY MUCH advise you to read this post + the one I linked in red at the bottom

But since I know people are lazy, I'll put this here so that at least you have an idea on what grounds I base my commentary:

Now here we go:

The context of the post I’m writing is about Daemon’s dilemma at Maidenpool after Maester Norren showed him Rhaenyra’s letter:

In continuation: Even though he believed Nettles would be constantly in danger because of Rhaenyra's wrath, she still had a chance at survival, knowing how cunning and fearless she was. All that mattered was that he refused to let her be killed. Letting her go meant defying Rhaenyra, but it also meant doing what he believed was the right thing

Except it wasn't. He should have returned to King's Landing AND Rhaenyra would have listened to him, and I'll DiE on this hill. If he had, Nettles wouldn't have ended up alone and ragged in the Vale (reminder: Sheepstealer died before 153...) and Rhaenyra would never have been savagely murdered in the very place where he crowned her as queen. Daemon failed them both by trying to help them both, and that is the tragedy of this grey character, who has good intentions when it comes to the ones he truly loves, but who's an awful communicator

It's a complex entanglement between love and duty. In the end, I believe it was love that led him to sacrifice himself by fulfilling his duty. Killing Vhagar was his responsibility, but he also did it out of love for his family. He forsook his duty to return to Rhaenyra because his heart chose to let Nettles go, as he felt it was his duty to protect her

Yet his heart refused to blame Rhaenyra. Instead he chose to preserve the love he had for her, and it was this raven that took the joy from him. He believed his wife saw him as a man without honour, unfaithful and distracted and a traitor. He did not return to her to prove otherwise, and history remembers him as a traitorous adulterer, and singers wrote songs about his alleged peaceful days with Nettles. And yet...

He shunned his honour by ignoring one of his duties so that he could fulfill a greater one, out of love for a woman and a girl who would have met a much happier fate if he had only gone back to King's Landing. He publicly defied Rhaenyra by saving Nettles, and he knowingly put Nettles' life in jeopardy when he killed Vhagar for Rhaenyra. But he failed to protect Nettles, and he never returned to Rhaenyra. Nettles lost the family she had found. Rhaenyra lost the family she had made. But Daemon chose not to save Rhaenyra because from what little he knew, she did not need to be saved. His choice to let Nettles go suddenly makes sense, because for him, she was the only one whose life was at stake

That's what happens when love tears your heart apart, when you are in conflict with yourself. When love and duty are incompatible, or, on the contrary, interlinked. Because no matter what choice you make, you will be a traitor to both and to yourself. The only way out is death. So... you might as well make it purposeful

He physically abandoned his wife but he never abandoned their family or their cause. He forced Nettles to abandon him so that he could save her (or so he believed: she did survive of course, but at what price?)

About Nettles and Rhaenyra:

Nettles and Rhaenyra are not foils and I have already explained a thousand times that there was never any conflict between them (stop being lazy and click on the links above). Daemon and Nettles did not run away in the Riverlands à la Lyanna and Rhaegar: Rhaenyra sent them together

Nettles' arc isn't about Daemon and Rhaenyra's "conflict", it's about dragonlore. She is the foil to Ulf and Hugh. Their contrast lies in how they used their dragons, their loyalty, their personalities and their gender, and what they did with this newfound power in this changing era

Nettles never asked for any reward, while Rhaenyra and Daemon were under immense pressure because they could not satisty Hugh and Ulf. Nettles and the Two Betrayers represent opposing aspects of empowerment through dragons. Nettles used her power to strive for a better and more fulfilling life. She used it to fight for the birthright of a woman, and later for her own safety and freedom, because the ravenous patriarchal system tore down the woman she had been loyal to

Hugh and Ulf used their power for personal gain. They pressured Rhaenyra for rewards, destroyed a city, seized control of what remained, killed the vulnerable, raped women and girls and then sided with the enemy of the woman who was being usurped. And in the end they betrayed that enemy too out of pure greed. They embodied the most corrupt and violent form of men in a patriarchal society, and the ones who cause the most damage (Tumbleton being the embodiment of it: they had come to DEFEND the city with their dragons, because dragons can guard and protect, but they subverted this role and turned the dragons into killing machines to satisfy their own ambitions). They're the proof that just because you're Valyrian, doesn't mean you deserve a dragon. They corrupted the dragons that were sent to shield thousands of people. Instead of freeing people with fire, they encircled them and burned them in their homes

Rhaenyra is at the centre, yes, but if one side, Hugh and Ulf, had not betrayed her, the other side, Nettles, would have thrived. Nettles could have become a living precedent, a lowborn girl reclaiming power not only through her blood, but through her intelligence, perseverance, sincerity and goodwill. These were all qualities that Ulf and Hugh completely lacked

Nettles would have proven that you must earn a dragon and that your background, your looks, and your gender do not define your worth. This is why Grrm made her a lowborn girl in a story about a queen being usurped and killed in her own home, the ancestral seat of the Targaryens, by a dragon in a grotesque mockery of her body and of Targaryen funeral customs. A girl whose alleged sexual exploits were disturbingly enumerated by Gyldayn in order to fit in his portrayal of 49 year old Daemon's own sexual exploits throughout his life. Same portrayal that also included Eustace's claims of a physically unattractive older Rhaenyra, allegedly allowing Daemon to sleep with similarly unattractive older Mysaria, because she could no longer satisfy his hungers, and then herself turned to gluttony in her big castle, while Daemon and Nettles had to content themselves with modest meals of boiled beef and beets in a war-torn region

It's not Rhaenyra who sealed Nettles' fate. It was Tumbleton, because of Hugh and Ulf. Their betrayal marked the end of Nettles' new life. People say: "But it's Rhaenyra who decided to send the order" except it's not because Rhaenyra was Rhaenyra: Daemon, Jace, Corlys or anyone else in the exact same circumstances would have done the same. All of this happened because her authority as a woman was challenged

About Corlys and Daemon:

And then Corlys went behind Rhaenyra's back and told Addam to flee, offering no explanation to her afterward. Why? Because Addam was his heir (and likely his son) after he had lost Laenor so long ago. He refused to take the risk, because he didn't want to lose another child he was supposed to protect and who represented the future of his family

And then Daemon did not return to King's Landing and sent Nettles away instead. Why?Because he no longer believed Rhaenyra was the woman he had married. Now she seemed willing to execute a girl for this strange reason he could not understand. He no longer trusted her judgment, so he refused to take the risk as well... The same way clever and just Torrhen Manderly urged Rhaenyra not to take the risk, as unsavoury as the implications were and despite the sacrifice and the injustice it would require. After all, it's still easy to cast down a lowborn girl in a civil war of highborns

So the Two Betrayers caused all of this. Corlys and Daemon didn't but they could have solved it. They didn't because they refused to take risks, and because they no longer trusted Rhaenyra. And that BEFORE she started distrusting anyone, I'll remind you

On the other hand, yes what Corlys did was betrayal, but he had his reasons. He was doing it for Addam, and because of the clear affection he had for him he chose to imagine the worst version of Rhaenyra to protect Addam from any eventual harm. He was being cautious, even if it meant assuming the worst. I don't think he was paranoid, which is why I don't think Rhaenyra was paranoid for acting the same way

Yes what Daemon did was betrayal, but he also had his reasons. In his eyes Rhaenyra had gone mad, wishing for the death of a teenage girl out of sudden and incomprehensible jealousy during hours where they NEEDED loyal allies AND dragons. He believed there was nothing he could do to make her see reason after she issued such a command to Lord Mooton, because she doesn't even allow anyone some time for reflection, or an opportunity to plead for Nettles. It's pretty obvious in the text that Daemon was very confused by Rhaenyra in this moment. Which is why I find it strange how people simply ignore the entire paragraph describing this rather unexpectedly emotional reaction coming from such a man

Corlys and Daemon mirror each other. They both chose to betray their queen in favour of a teenager they were emotionally attached to. But they didn't do it out of greed or malice, they did it because they believed it was the right thing. They never meant to disservice Rhaenyra, especially in Daemon's case

As for Corlys, there is a reason Aegon III, Rhaenyra's SON who witnessed her DEATH, trusted him when he trusted almost no one. That tells me Corlys was more than just a powerful old lord who wanted to avoid being sent to the Wall. He was Baela and Rhaena's grandfather and he had long been close to the family. I truly believe Corlys cared for Aegon, and he had likely known him since he was a baby anyway

Why was Corlys distrusting? Because Rhaenyra needed answers immediately, and to get them NOW, she needed to question Addam, and it doesn't take a particularly sharp mind to understand the implications of "sharp questioning" Corlys didn't actually know what Rhaenyra would decide after hearing her advisers’ counsel, but once again he took no chances and they had no time to sit down and talk gently

Corlys believed Rhaenyra would not listen to Addam, even before the council meeting (though he still tried to defend Addam during the meeting). Daemon believed the same. He thought Rhaenyra would not listen or see reason. But the things is she was not even given the chance to listen, because they had already decided she was too emotional and unstable to even bother speaking to in the first place

Corlys and Daemon did not have bad intentions. Corlys knew his actions would weaken Rhaenyra but that was not what he was trying to achieve. It was collateral damage in what he believed was a greater good because now he prioritised HIS own interests, and supporting Rhaenyra cost him more ill than good. Daemon knew Rhaenyra would feel betrayed, but his intentions were good. He did everything he could to ensure she would come out with the right side of the bargain in the end (killing Vhagar, and while it did serve their cause in the long term, it scarcely served Rhaenyra, but he was tragically unaware of that)

On Nettles and Rhaenyra again:

Rhaenyra and Nettles were both victims of patriarchy. In fact it was when Rhaenyra was betrayed that Nettles lost her chance at a better life. Rhaenyra's ascent to the throne gave Nettles the rare opportunity to claim a dragon, but her downfall took away everything that promise held. Nettles gained power through the support of a woman dragonrider, as different as they were. But her dreams died with the death of that same woman. The power her dragon gave her became a liability in a world that no longer had a place for it

Rhaenyra was too loud and Nettles was too mysterious. Both of them (whether they meant to or not) were challenging the societal order in their own ways. They were trapped in a narrow space that muffled them, offering no room to exist freely despite their agency

In the end, Nettles fled to the Vale, the very place where Rhaenyra would have been safe after she fled King's Landing. Rhaenyra fled to Dragonstone, where Nettles had once claimed the dragon that carried her away from a hostile civilisation. While Nettles became physically and literally isolated, Rhaenyra grew more and more isolated as her reign came to an end. That would not have happened had the literal Protector of the Realm not played skydiving above the Gods Eye

Sadly enough, without the betrayals of the men around them, Rhaenyra and Nettles could have contributed to each other's well being. Nettles could have continued fighting for Rhaenyra, and Rhaenyra could have given Nettles the protection of the crown and a real home as befitting of a loyal dragonrider

Rhaenyra was the named heir. She was crowned, and thousands of knights and lords swore loyalty to her; Nettles had a dragon and a mentor. Together they held unprecedented power for women, especially two contemporaries. Yet all those forms of power brought them nothing but grief because their world did not want women to wield that much power. It disrupted the very foundations of the patriarchal society they lived in

Royal, low born, in any case this power of dragons associated to Targaryens/Dragonlords isn't really compatible with the Westerosi spirit, because while Valyria was NOT a feminist society lol, it still granted women dragonriders a bigger amount of autonomy than in Westeros for example. But Targaryen men chose to shoot themselves in the foot by discarding and mistreating their own women. And they did that because THEY wanted to, because of misogyny. They paid the price for that with the death of the dragons and the progressive decline of their power

On Corlys and Daemon again (...)

And as l've explained, the ones who could have prevented this downfall were the men closest to both women. Rhaenyra, in particular, had a kind of patriarchal dependence on Corlys, one that is paradoxical given their titles and positions. SHE was the queen, and HE was her Hand and sworn lord. His power was meant to emanate from hers, yet in practice, she relied on him to maintain her authority and influence. Therefore it was a failed subversion that cost her a lot

As for Daemon, their relationship was almost a successful subversion (both thematically and personally) But even that had its limits, and those limits were exposed when Manfryd Mooton chose to disobey Rhaenyra's direct commands in favour of Daemon's authority. It's true they feared his dragon (believe me, the guest right argument would've been totally dismissed if it weren't for Caraxes looking in from outside the window lol) but they also acknowledged that Rhaenyra would reach them and destroy them as well. Still they chose Daemon, knowing she would punish them soon after. And Daemon allowed it to happen, ano he in fact enforced it when he threatened Maester Norren with his sword

He permitted that defiance because he believed his queen had been manipulated by Mysaria, a woman he dismissed as a "whore", such an old womanly title, and his framing is is reminiscent of Eustace's own study of Daemon and Nettles' relationship. In doing so, he placed his own authority above hers, even though HE was the MAN who had once CROWNED HER and sworn to SERVE HER. In the end, he still held patriarchal power over her even from miles away. And that despite years of harmony between them, with a quite unique dynamic for a Westerosi married couple. Daemon miserably failed the woman who’s the reason why he’s not a khia

Rhaenyra tried to reward Ulf and Hugh because she depended on them. There is no mention of Nettles ever asking for a reward, but in the end, she paid the price for Ulf and Hugh's corruption. It's almost like she should've embraced this system in order to survive... I'll expend that argument later

On dragonlore:

It is not the “evil Valyrians/Targaryens” who are the true example of entitlement. It is men like Ulf and Hugh. Their blood alone allowed them to claim dragons, yet all they did with that power was evil. They prove that simply having Valyrian blood does not automatically make someone worthy of riding a dragon. And more than that: they prove that Valyrians (through misogyny here, but also through slavery and exploitation in the past) brought their doom onto themselves. Literally. The difference is that the Targaryens escaped the Doom, thanks in great part to Daenys, a WOMAN. But it is their usurpation of a Targaryen WOMAN that caused the death of the dragons and triggered a premature Long Night, and the fall of a dynasty whose last victims were little children

Nettles is not the proof that you don't need Valyrian blood to claim a dragon (because denying her heritage so adamantly reeks of racism, sorry. It's not like we don't have a dozen of example of Valyrians with non-Valyrian looks) She is proof that the true blood of the dragon is not always found in all-mighty kings, princesses, knights, or lords. Sometimes it is in a young homeless girl from the streets of Spicetown who was born with her eyes fixed on the sky. She has every right to reclaim that magnificent legacy, especially one so deeply tied to women. ESPECIALLY when she did in service of a woman who actually trusted her MORE THAN ENOUGH to send her alone with Daemon, knowing Vhagar (who killed LUKE, her own son) was still roaming freely around. I wish more people remembered that detail

Valyrian is not a royal or feudal status. It is a race, a culture, a heritage that every descendant can reclaim. Nettles claimed her dragon through a softer approach, since Sheepstealer had devoured a few candidates before her. So she chose a different path and ADAPTED HERSELF to the dragon's habits and preferences and personality. She bowed to him. It's one of the most unique form of bonding between a dragon and a person, another being Dany's hatching of her dragons through her own body and magic

Nettles did not have a cradle egg, she did not have access to books about dragon lore, and she did not grow up with stories of dragon riders and their voyages. She only had dreams and ambitions

So Nettles claiming a dragon was a frightening statement for Westeros: "now I matter, people like me matter" The nobles had very little to gain from lowborns wielding so much power because it threatened the feudal hierarchy. AND Nettles did not even have the Valyrian looks

(It's even worse when the lowborn in question is a woman. Dragons give women a huge amount of power and physical AUTONOMY. Women hold the power of life and death (childbirth, succession, legacy), if men don't have control over women (marriage), they lose power over life and death, and therefore the patriarchal feudal system cannot function)

Rhaenyra represented the thriving of the dragons. Despite being pressured into a marriage with Laenor, she still took her bodily autonomy in her own hands, and while she was constantly shamed for that, she expressed her sexuality freely and had children with men she desired. She surrounded herself with autonomous and powerful dragonriding women like Rhaenys and Laena, with whom she formed an alliance (and whose death IN CHILDBIRTH granted Vhagar to the Greens...). And she even defied her father the King by marrying in secret a man she chose. As for Nettles, she represented the future of the dragons, like Rhaena

Rhaenyra was burned to ashes and Nettles disappeared into nature and her name was pretty much forgotten from history. Rhaenyra's name was never forgotten, but it was never given again, even though it was her bloodline that continued after the Dance. Not a single healthy dragon was hatched after Rhaenyra's death (Morning was definitely born before), which led to the dragons' decline, and Sheepstealer died at some point as well. Rhaenyra's death doomed Nettles too. But Rhaenyra somehow inspires less empathy, sometimes it’s even the opposite. Victims of misogyny like her are less worthy of clemency. She’s a cruel victim of the cruel circumstances she partly caused. But hey, karma worked: Nettles outlived her, instead of the other way around. Rhaenyra brought this on herself…..Right? Don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? Rhaenyra lost the war because of that decision, apparently… but Tumbleton happened before. Addam fled before. Rhaenyra always lost, but only her. Not her allies, not her men, not her husband. Only her

Eustace, in his reconstruction of events involving Rhaenya and Mysaria, portrays Nettles as unworthy of her Valyrian blood because of her appearance. He claims she must have stolen the sacred right to ride a dragon through sorcery, an accusation often made against "wanton" and "problematic" women. Since she was a woman, he suggests she used her sexuality to steal a dragon and the heart of a dragonrider prince. According to him Nettles' influence was so strong that she became the first step toward Daemon's death and the eventual ruin of Rhaenyra's reign and the violence that followed. Because women in any position of power cause RUIN, because they are driven by their womanly instincts that are not compatible with the rationality required to rule in a man's world. Mysaria was also blamed for Rhaenyra’s alleged paranoia and stupidity. And yet, Mysaria had nothing to gain by making Rhaenyra paranoid…

On Rhaenyra's letter to Maidenpool:

I explained earlier that the pretext in the raven was a lie. Rhaenyra was too afraid the Mootons would deflect once they heard about the disastrous situation in the realm and that the Blacks were now losing. She chose that strange, even disturbing pretext because it would not reveal the truth. It was a pretext one might almost expect from a queen, a woman, not from a king, a man. In this man's world, Rhaenyra had no choice but to weaponise the ancient misogynistic and familiar trope of the whore/ mistress to try to regain control that men were slipping from her grasp. It was also easier for men to believe Nettles was a traitorous seductress than to accept she might be a potential war criminal they were unknowingly sheltering. Nettles was an easy sacrifice because, in the end, in the context of two betrayers having burned an entire city, she was still a lowborn girl and therefore replaceable, as opposed to a prince

In this man's world, women are trapped in a cruel paradox: to survive and hold power, they must sometimes wield the very weapons of slander and suspicion that are designed to destroy them. Rhaenyra and Daemon's scandalous relationship was twisted and weaponised against her, becoming one of the earliest justifications the Greens used to usurp the throne. The fact that such a pretext was so readily believed and never seriously questioned reveals how deeply ingrained the assumption was that a woman's rise to diverse levels of power must be the result of sexual manipulation or moral failing, regardless of class and age. It is a grim reminder of how patriarchal societies erase the complexity, intelligence and legitimacy of women by reducing their achievements or overall existence to rumours about their bodies used by men or worn-out by children. And the fact that the veracity of this narrative is widely accepted in the fandom proves that in 2025, very little has changed, or let's say that misogyny in fantasy fiction is extremely rampant and therefore this narrative is believable, even though it is extremely reductive and simply... inaccurate, as it's not what grrm wrote. In short: everyone missed the point of the Rhaenyra-Nettles-Mysaria-Daemon-Corlys dynamics. Rhaenyra and Nettles also fit perfectly in the Dangerous Women anthology which The Princess and the Queen is part of

The story sets up Rhaenyra and Nettles as opposing figures, queen and mistress, royal and lowborn, light and dark, old and young, but these contrasts are misleading. The narrative simplifies them into stereotypes, the paranoid, worn-out woman broken by childbirth versus the greedy, manipulative seductress suspected to be soon pregnant by the worn-out woman's lustful, enthralled husband. Yet they are far more connected than that. GRRM trusted his readers to see beyond the surface, but many miss that the real narrative isn't about Daemon. It's about Nettles and Rhaenyra's connected fates, their ties to Valyria's legacy, and how they both challenge and are crushed by the brutal forces of Westerosi patriarchy, and the self cannibalisation of House Targaryen, and its betrayal against its women and its own blood and heritage

Rhaenyra Targaryen is one of the most misunderstood characters in asoiaf

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queendaeron1 · 1 month ago

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I also find the framing that “Mirri owes Daenerys nothing” interesting. Mirri goes beyond that. Torturing a 14 year old with a violent stillbirth, compared to knives ripping through her body, and murdering the unborn child within her, moves Mirri’s actions from “doesn’t owe her anything” to “has affirmatively harmed her.”

Not owing her anything is one thing, but harm ? Why isn’t this logic used literally anywhere else ? Does Daenerys owe anything to the Starks, Lannisters, Baratheons, Tullys, and Arryns, considering the role they played in taking down her family, directly leading to her being sold into sexual slavery and raped ? Since Mirri is a rape victim and doesn’t owe Daenerys anything, does Daenery, a rape victim, owe anything to these families ? And if she doesn’t, does that mean Daenerys now has the right to murder their children or harm their children ?

Can we absolve Lysa Arryn by saying she doesn’t owe anything to the Starks and Arryns ? Lysa is a rape victim after all, and she was forced to marry Jon Arryn by her father, Hoster Tully. No Tully, Arryn, or Stark takes accountability for this. So is Lysa’s violence and abuse of Sansa justified ?

What about Theon ? Isn’t he justified in sacking Winterfell, betraying the Starks, and murdering the miller’s boys ? It was Ned who sacked Pyke, leading to the rape and slaughter of countless Ironborn. It was Ned who took Theon away from his mother, and home, making him a hostage, alienating him from his Ironborn identity and culture. So Theon owes the Starks nothing, right ? Who cares if the Starks “took him in ?” Do hostages even have a choice ?

Why can’t I absolve Cersei’s actions like this too ? Isn’t Cersei justified in passing off her children with Jaime as trueborn Baratheons, considering that Robert rapes and abuses her ? Isn’t she justified in harming the Starks, considering that Ned is her rapist’s best friend and enabler ?

This. All this.

#anti is a very kind word #misogynistic isn’t strong enough #that’s straight up weirdo behaviour #we’re talking about a 13yo child bride who was forced to carry a child #but I suppose it’s nothing right #right?#daenerys targaryen #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #chad queen daenerys #a game of thrones

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queendaeron1 · 1 month ago

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Father, Son and Holy Mother : Daemon, Aegon and Rhaenyra

“We all know that one’s nature.”

“No one truly knew his nature.”

“Let it be known through all your lands that I fly for Harrenhal. If my nephew Aemond dares face me, he shall find me there, alone."

“As she sent Orwyle and the other envoys on their way, Rhaenyra said, "Tell my half-brother that I will have my throne, or I will have his head."

“The king's face grew hard. "Ser Marston," he said, "this man is my Hand and innocent of treason. The traitors here are those who tortured him to bring forth this false confession. Seize the Lord Confessor, if you love your king...else I will know that you are as false as he is."

“Aegon the Younger was ever at his mother's side, yet seldom spoke a word.”

“On Dragonstone, meanwhile, Princess Rhaenyra was once again great with child. She too took to her bed, with her husband the rogue prince ever at her side.”

“As the year waned, she brought forth a small but robust son, a pale princeling with dark purple eyes and pale silvery hair. She named him Aegon. Prince Daemon had at last a living son of his own blood...”

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #fire and blood #rhaenyra targaryen #daemon targaryen #f&b #team black #daemon x rhaenyra #aegon iii targaryen #valyriansource #valyrianscrolls #book quotes #house targaryen #the princess and the queen #the rogue prince #daemyra #he does look like them #he was very loved #my poor boy

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queendaeron1 · 1 month ago

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I'm going to actually poke the bear today by saying how I really feel about Sansa and Arya's relationship. That is to say, I think it's a bad relationship, and I think that the main issue is how Sansa treats Arya. Sansa's behavior absolutely crosses a line, and she 100% should be apologizing for it.

For reference, I have an older sister, we are very close now, but we weren't always. One time, she choked me out for wearing her socks outside, and I still think that Sansa's behavior is over the line. The reason that my sister and I are able to have a genuinely close relationship is because the choking out wasn't a pattern of behavior on her part. This was not something she'd done before, not something she did again, and it happened under abnormal circumstances. We had a period of a few years where we generally didn't get a long and fought a lot, but even then, we would still willingly spend time together, playing games or watching movies, sometimes because we didn't actually completely dislike each other.

This is patently untrue for Sansa and Arya. Sansa does not like Arya the way she is and actively wants her to change. She looks down on the activities Arya enjoys, like horse riding, and makes no attempt to connect with Arya on that level. We have plenty of evidence that Arya feels insecure as a result of things Sansa has said or allowed her friends to say. AGOT has quotes like "Jeyne used to call her Arya Horseface and neigh whenever she came near. It hurt that the one thing Arya could do better than her sister was ride a horse," and "She went to the window seat and sat there, sniffling, hating them all, and herself most of all. It was all her fault, everything bad that had happened. Sansa said so, and Jeyne, too," and "'Lyanna was beautiful,' Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya," and somehow people are unwilling to see how deeply Sansa's actions affected her. This is not how someone would act if their sibling called them ugly once or twice. These are the thoughts of someone is has been thoroughly berated by their sibling their entire life to the point of genuinely believing the horrible things said about them.

I feel the need to cover some potential counterarguments before they get brought up, so here we go. First, I know Sansa is only 11 years old when the books start. Contrary to what some of you believe, being 11 doesn't magically absolve of any wrong you've ever done. Believe it or not, teaching children when they've messed up and having them apologize when they've hurt someone is how they learn to be good, kind adults who take responsibility for their actions. 11 is absolutely old enough to know when you're being mean and what is an acceptable way to treat someone. The only characters who can use the "they're a child" excuse are toddlers and babies, who actually might not know better. If you use this excuse, you are severely underestimating the intelligence of children. This also completely ignores that there are several other children in ASOIAF who do not treat other people the way Sansa treats Arya, some of whom are younger than Sansa.

Second, I know there's going to be some people insisting that both of them have done bad things to the other, but I'm going to be honest, Arya mostly seems to be reacting to the way Sansa treats her. The most common example I see brought up is Arya throwing an orange at Sansa, so I'm going to quote the scene with the additional context here:

“Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. 'Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them.' 'It’s not the same,' Sansa said. 'The Hound is Joffrey’s sworn shield. Your butcher’s boy attacked the prince.' 'Liar,' Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers. 'Go ahead, call me all the names you want,' Sansa said airily. 'You won’t dare when I’m married to Joffrey. You’ll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace.' She shrieked as Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap. 'You have juice on your face, Your Grace,' Arya said. It was running down her nose and stinging her eyes. Sansa wiped it away with a napkin. When she saw what the fruit in her lap had done to her beautiful ivory silk dress, she shrieked again. 'You’re horrible,” she screamed at her sister. 'They should have killed you instead of Lady!' Septa Mordane came lurching to her feet. 'Your lord father will hear of this! Go to your chambers, at once. At once!' 'Me too?' Tears welled in Sansa’s eyes. 'That’s not fair.'" (A Game of Thrones)

Now, without context, the middle bit where Sansa is lording over Arya and then Arya throws the orange at her could maybe be construed as "normal" sibling behavior. However, we have more context, and this conversation frankly doesn't do Sansa any favors. Arya only gets upset because Sansa is extremely dismissive of the death of her friend, presumably because he was a commoner and therefore not very important in Sansa's eyes. Keep in mind that this Mycah didn't just die; he was brutally murdered with his body so destroyed that his father didn't even know what it was at first. Considering that the Joffrey-Arya-Micah confrontation scene is told from Sansa's perspective, we can assume that Sansa knows full well that Mycah didn't attack Joffrey. Arya is right that she's lying. Sansa response to getting hit with an orange is to tell her sister that she wishes she had been executed instead of Lady, which is an insanely cruel thing to say. I feel like some of you don't realize that there's a difference between wishing someone didn't exist or wishing that you didn't have a sibling and straight up wishing for them to have capitol punishment enacted on them. Bear in mind, saying "I wish you'd never been born," or "I wish I didn't have a sister" are also mean things to say. I also don't think you should be saying that to your sibling on a regular basis, but saying something like that in the heat of the moment and realizing you were wrong later happens. The thing is, Sansa isn't sorry and doesn't seem to realize she's done anything wrong. She insists it's not fair when Septa Mordane sends both of them away and later in the chapter, immediately blames everything on Arya when they're brought to their father. Arya even apologizes without prompting from Ned, but it doesn't occur to Sansa at all despite, again, wishing death upon her sister.

I'm sorry, but if my sister straight up told me it was fine that no one was being punished for the blatant murder of my friend because he was poor and "attacked" some important, well-to-do person, I would do way more than throw an orange at her. Now, my sister would never do that because she's not classist, and she actually likes me. And even when our relationship was at its worst and even if it was unprovoked, I cannot imagine my sister ever telling me she wished that I would be killed because I threw food at her and stained her outfit. Also, as a note about the Lady incident, I don't know how anyone in Sansa's position could come out of that and eventually decide that the primary, and perhaps only, person responsible was their sibling unless they already genuinely disliked their sibling.

Sansa fundamentally does not like Arya and does not respect the things that Arya enjoys which is a huge reason why I don't think that they have a regular sibling dynamic. Never mind that Sansa's disdain is reinforced by both societal norms and people like Septa Mordane and her mother. Sansa would have an immensely difficult time re-evaluating her perspective because no one has ever challenged it. Catelyn and the septa are constantly saying that Arya should be more like Sansa, so Sansa continues to believe this. The only authority figure who seems to push back even a little is Ned, and Sansa just gets irritated with him for letting Arya "get away" with stuff.

I think a lot of people are missing that context. My sister and I said and did a lot of mean things to each other, but at the end of the day, we still had the ability to get along. We would pretend our Barbies were superheroes, or make parody films with stuffed animals, or pretend to be spies for George Washington. We still respected each other even when we acted like we hated each other. I could brush off a lot of what she said because I knew she'd still be happy to play with me later. We understood when we had gone too far and apologized because for the most part, we didn't actually want to hurt each other. Sansa does not feel this way about Arya. At some point in AGOT, she won't even speak to Arya without being forced. She would never willingly choose to spend time with Arya because she can't even begin to consider that what Arya does might be enjoyable to someone. Sansa has no respect for Arya and thinks that she deserves to be treated poorly.

#asoiaf #arya stark #stark sisters #a song of ice and fire #a game of thrones #house stark #sansa stark

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queendaeron1 · 1 month ago

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I always found Rhaenyra’s supposed rant about Nettles suspicious, and I think we really need to talk about it once and for all because we’ve been sleepwalking on it. I’ll speak about other things as well

Not only does it seem completely out of character, but there’s also no cited source to back it up. Precisely because it never happened. Rhaenyra never said any of that and Mysaria was NOT THERE. This is going to be very long! VERY LONG! If you don’t have a lot of time, read this later…

For starters, Mysaria (who was NEVER officially part of the Council) suddenly appears in the room, and for some reason, Rhaenyra supposedly needed this one extra reason to justify ordering Nettles’ execution. This is in stark contrast to Addam Velaryon, whose ARREST she ordered without hesitation after the council’s deliberations, even though his dragon was right there in King’s Landing. And Joffrey, who actually had a seat on the council as Prince of Dragonstone, is never even mentioned in this account… should he not be?

Another detail I thought about: no one on the council gave any reaction or answer to Mysaria’s intervention, which is something very strange: Torrhen Manderly was known to dislike Lyseni. Mysaria was a Lysene woman: he WOULD have said something. No one would’ve taken the Consort’s former mistress seriously if she just pulled up like that and said that. Let’s be serious for a second. Why do you think GRRM explicitly said a few pages prior that she never sat in the council? Why did he make it clear that Rhaenyra and the Blacks had NO TIME to discuss the matter thoroughly?

Eustace provides no source for Rhaenyra’s alleged words. In fact, the language he attributes to her sounds VERY similar to his own descriptions of the Northerners, who don’t follow the faith of the Seven, while Rhaenyra herself has never expressed such sentiments anywhere else in the text. It doesn’t align with her character AT ALL.

Why would she accuse someone of sorcery when she’s literally Visenya’s most loyal stan? Why would she allow Jace to organise the Red Sowing, enabling bastards to claim dragons? Why would she doubt the parentage of a girl who was born on Driftmark, of all places? (You’ll say: because Nettles was Black, but that’s something that would only bother a Green leaning septon, not a Valyrian whose sons look like Rivermen…)

Why would she suddenly change her mind about Nettles’ claim to her dragon? Why would she care about anyone being a bastard, when the real problem was that she didn’t know these people, and that the one she knew best had just fled before she could even question him?

When Addam fled before she could QUESTION him, it (in her eyes) confirmed her suspicions. Time was running out, the council was panicking, Tumbleton was closer to KL than Maidenpool was and at that point, Rhaenyra believed that at least 3 dragonriders had turned against her. She had no way of knowing where Addam was heading. She couldn’t afford to take any risks. “Best take no chance”. It was a regrettable sacrifice they felt they had to make, believing the Greens’ dragons were only a day away at best from KL

Did Rhaenyra truly say those words?

In The Princess and the Queen, the novella centred around Rhaenyra and Alicent’s arcs during the DotD (or at least their roles as “dangerous women”), this entire conversation doesn’t exist. Mysaria is barely mentioned, and most importantly: Eustace wasn’t even there in the room. He provides no explanation as to where he got this information “this one told me this, the other, that”

For those who don’t know: TPATQ was already a part of the completed text covering the Dance in f&b. However, GRRM and his editors had to edit some parts to fit in a novella format, for the anthology Dangerous Women, which focuses on the different types of dangerous women, whether they’re villains, or VILIFIED, and WHY AND HOW. The final text appears in f&b, and THIS book explores the theme of medieval historiography. GRRM still made some changes, but other than that, it’s still very much canon

The reason why I use the novellas as a tool of comparison for f&b is because TPATQ is actually about Rhaenyra, while f&b is also about how she’s PERCEIVED AND DEPICTED by external sources. F&B is a lesson about the methods of medieval historiography and how they shape the figures of “problematic” women (like Rhaenyra, Mysaria, even Nettles… all in different ways, but still in one way or another) in a patriarchal society

Side note: Nettles isn't a gotcha against Rhaenyra or Valyrians in general. She shares many significant parallels with Dany, and I just cringe every time I hear someone claim she isn't Valyrian: many Valyrians/Targs did not have Valyrian looks (the Otherys kids, who were black, Rhaenyra's sons, Baelor B, one of the Daerons, Almost-Queen Rhaenys and little Princess Rhaenys, etc). Nettles was born on Driftmark, and Addam and Alyn are definitely not Laenor's sons. There's the theory of Daemon being her father (she was probably inspired by Nettle Farseer from the Farseer Trilogy, written by Robin Hobb, a good friend of GRRM. Nettle is the bastard daughter of a Prince; they have magical abilities, but she only met her father later in her life) She could also be a descendant/daughter of a Velaryon/descendant of a Velaryon. Velaryons and Targaryens intermarried several times even before the Conquest, so... you wouldn't say that if she weren't Black (And like I'm saying, Rhaenyra never said that either)

So when something from Eustace’s account in F&B pops up but it doesn’t appear in TPATQ, it means you seriously need to consider either its veracity, or its true purpose (meaning: why is the narrator commenting a truth in this particular manner)… for example: Rosby/stokeworth doesn’t appear in TPATQ, only in F&B, but it obviously happened. The question is: why is it not in the novella? So yes, just look at the HUGE difference between f&b! Rhaenyra and TPATQ! Rhaenyra. The text that’s actually much more focused on her ACTIONS and BEHAVIOUR makes her sound so much more likeable

Rhaenyra ordered Nettles’ execution because:

1/ Addam had been warned IN ADVANCE and fled, which (in her eyes) meant Corlys had betrayed her (and may have even known about Tumbleton before she did, for all she knew) Also note that Corlys was said to refuse to speak a single word which means that all Rhaenyra knew was that he told his heir to flee at the same time that 2 of her dragonriders betrayed her. And still he won’t tell her if Addam is a threat or not… I’m sorry but I would be “paranoid” too, especially since Rhaenyra and Corlys’ relationship had kind of reached its breaking point. There was no trust between them. Corlys refused to take chances… sounds familiar

2/ Nettles had a dragon, and Rhaenyra couldn’t risk her staying in KL in case she’d turn out to be a traitor. Rhaenyra herself couldn’t fly to Maidenpool; Syrax was needed to defend the city, especially since Addam had disappeared. Also, the people in KL SAW Addam leave, and they didn’t see him coming back. The atmosphere was already extremely tense because of the fear of the nearing green armies: imagine if the smallfolk had seen their last adult dragon leave? It would’ve left them COMPLETELY EXPOSED. The ideal ingredient to trigger other bloody riots. When you can’t protect your people, at least give them the illusion that you are protecting them lol

3/ Time was running out. She couldn’t afford to interrogate Nettles. “Best take no chance” again, as Torrhen Manderly said

Rhaenyra sent the warrant for Nettles ONLY AFTER Addam fled before she could question him, and Corlys refused to speak and tell her whether Addam intended to join the two betrayers, or even Nettles and Aemond. It may seem far-fetched, but the whole point is that she DID NOT have time to express caution and wait. She had to imagine every possible scenario. Rhaenyra can’t fly to Maidenpool herself, she can’t send a messenger on horseback (takes too much time), and she can’t send a raven to Daemon and only Daemon, because ravens go through Maesters (Norren in Maidenpool)

That isn’t paranoia, this is what EVERY monarch has to deal with. Just read the main series and you’ll find a ton of other examples of such dilemmas. But it’s easier to call women paranoid and grief-stricken. “She became like that because she lost her children” That’s a VERY old-fashioned way to describe women…

Mysaria’s role in all this was simple: Rhaenyra’s letter stated that Nettles was Daemon’s lover and therefore guilty of high treason. Eustace, ever biased, framed it as if Rhaenyra was manipulated into this decision because of Daemon’s later assumption (A Queen’s words, a whore’s work). But Daemon is not reliable here: he’s blaming Mysaria because he’s emotionally unable to blame his own wife. We aren’t supposed to take his words for granted here. He’s not in Kings Landing, he’s depressed and tired and he can’t get his hands on Aemond. The letter is the reason why that rumour spread

But Mysaria WAS NOT with Rhaenyra during the council session! Eustace fabricated a supposed conversation within the Black Council: he wanted to fill in the gaps, using whatever little information he had. But more importantly, he inserted his own biases. And well…

Eustace was the one who described Nettles as having a slit nose (a punishment for THIEVES), but no other source confirms this (it could be true, HOWEVER, in this particular context, the intent behind this account is very sus). He describes Nettles as an unlikely paramour for a prince. Remember when “Rhaenyra” said that it was obvious that Nettles had no Valyrian blood and Daemon would NEVER take such a “creature” as his lover? Do you connect the dots?

If Nettles had been white, Eustace would’ve never claimed she had a slit nose… what Nettles looked like FOR CERTAIN was: skinny, small, black girl, young, black hair and brown eyes. Maybe crooked teeth, because it’s not like she had any access to dental care, but that’s all

(What I’m 100% certain is that her physical appearance has NOTHING to do with whether she was Daemon’s lover or not. That man probably fucked half of Essos when he used to travel there at the beginning of his brother’s reign: I’m sure he made a lot of fine encounters with many people of different backgrounds)

He was the one who claimed Daemon was in Mysaria’s thrall, just as he later describes him (through “Rhaenyra”) as being under Nettles’ thrall. And then proceeded to fatshame Mysaria in the VERY same page he did Rhaenyra. IT’S ALWAYS the same range of vocabulary. Spells, thralls, creatures, savages, cold/soft voice/eyes…. the way he describes Rhaenyra’s voice “cold as ice” is exactly how he describes Cregan Stark’s cold eyes

In both cases: he can’t stand their asses (Rhaenyra is a woman pretender, Cregan is a northerner who doesn’t follow the Seven)

In any case, Mysaria didn’t say anything and didn’t sabotage Rhaenyra because SHE. WAS. NOT. THERE. Just like Rhaenyra she was VILIFIED by the men around her. It’s one of the main themes of this storyline

Look at the pattern. Eustace paints women he disapproves of as:

1/ Manipulative “witches” (Mysaria and Nettles)

2/ Unattractive (all three women)

3/ Promiscuous (Rhaenyra had bastards, Mysaria was a consort’s whore, Nettles allegedly resorted to prostitution to buy sheep) Gyldayn puts forward the idea that Nettles sold her body to buy the sheep she fed Sheepstealer: how creative… she probably worked for a shepherd or sold oysters on the docks. She lived on Driftmark: I’m pretty sure she didn’t lack for small jobs. Even though we do know that she was cunning and perseverant) I'm not saying it is not possible, only that it shouldn't be our first assumption. So it tells a lot about how Nettles was vilified for being a lowborn Black woman who claimed a dragon, who had a power few people in the world had, and for being esteemed and valued

It’s blatant racism and misogyny, especially when it comes to Nettles. It’s also xenophobia to Mysaria: Lysene women are often depicted as seductresses and witches in ASOIAF, but it kind of extends to foreigners in general. It’s easy for Eustace to say that Mysaria enthralled Daemon, which is why she would claim that Nettles enthralled Daemon as well. Again: WITCHES vibe. Mysaria really gives off witch vibes.

Did Rhaenyra actually believe Daemon and Nettles were lovers?

No. And frankly, that wasn’t even her priority. Her people were being burned alive, 3 of her dragons had just been lost, and she had to keep her remaining allies in line. To do that, she had to hide the truth, and this is what we’re going to discuss from now on

In the TPATQ it goes like this: she needed a pretext to convince the Mootons to obey her without revealing how dire her situation truly was. She claimed adultery because it IS high treason. And the Mootons, unlike her council, weren’t even aware of Tumbleton yet. That was the whole point. They could not be, and must not be. Adultery was only a PRETEXT. Grave enough, but it still doesn’t lead one to realise that they have 3, maybe 4 hostile dragons above them in the skies. No one in there cared whether it was true or not: a Lord receives such a command, he must execute it. Unless he wishes to be attainted

And the fact that this comes from a woman makes it easier to believe. Jealousy is a woman’s condition. That’s why they didn’t suspect anything else more sinister. They did not care about the rest, they were afraid of Rhaenyra, but even more of Daemon AND HIS DRAGON

But why did she believe Nettles’ death was necessary? And why lie?

The people of King’s Landing had just watched their second to last dragon leave the city. They also saw him NOT come back. The knights sworn to House Velaryon were starting to abandon Rhaenyra’s cause after she arrested Corlys. In short, things weren’t going very smoothly in the capital. People were growing more restless, angrier and more afraid by the day, the city was becoming dangerous, and Rhaenyra’s reputation was crumbling. These are the roots of the incoming bloody riots that caused Rhaenyra’s demise

The only efficient way to settle things was to bring Daemon back. He was well known and liked by the smallfolk, Caraxes had a fierce reputation, and Daemon might’ve been able to repair the fallout with Corlys, which could’ve locked down Velaryon loyalty again (AND THEIR FLEET) That’s what Rhaenyra meant by “urgent need”. Having Daemon at her side would be a show of strength; his presence (and that of his dragon) would reassure the people, they would feel protected, or at the very least cared for. They believed that 3 grown dragons were coming for them, and Daemon still wasn’t here

The problem was, she was afraid Daemon could become a target and be harmed: either of the traitors already on the run, or maybe even Addam. And she was worried Nettles might turn on her too (which has been the whole fucking point since the beginning). And maybe even the Mootons. But she couldn’t exactly tell Manfryd Mooton “Kill her because she might become a traitor and we’ve already got three on the run” She was scared the men would turn on her (and unfortunately, she wasn’t wrong in the end)

1) Tell the Mootons the truth about Tumbleton

- they deflect because they're afraid of the greens dragons

2) Tell them to HOLD Nettles

- same + may restrain Daemon TOO who knows??? They even considered killing him, and only didn’t do so because they were afraid of Rhaenyra’s eventual reaction. This is something she had been afraid of and which in great part motivated the council’s final decision

3) Tell them to send Nettles and Daemon back to her

- Same + or Nettles could flee on the way

4) Not kill/arrest Nettles:

- Daemon MUST STILL go back to KL and if she doesn't tell them why, they might deflect too or even snitch on Rhaenyra about her catastrophic position. In any case, Aemond is still around, so without Daemon, Maidenpool would turn into an open bar

5) Not doing anything:

-The greens are literally a day away, the smallfolk saw Addam leave and know something's wrong, which worsened the mood. Corlys still won't say anything about Addam's intentions, and having Daemon could maybe appease things with the Velaryons (and their fleet). Side note: Rhaenyra and Corlys’ dynamic is the pivotal (and patriarchal) dynamic of the Dance, not Rhaenyra and Daemon. In theory, she was his queen. His practice, she depended on him, and their relationship was everything but warm. Corlys went behind her back to save Addam, but he would’ve absolutely advised Rhaenyra to not take risk, like her council told her, if it weren’t for him being directly involved because it’s his son and heir. So Corlys had nothing to gain anymore in supporting her cause, and she knew that, and he knew that

Rhaenyra certainly had not imagined that Daemon would care so much for Nettles. My theory (key word: theory) is that she had Laenor's death in mind: either she knew Daemon was the culprit, or she suspected him to be the culprit. It'd mean that Daemon was willing to kill someone fairly close to him for the "greater good" (here it was to marry Rhaenyra). It's just a theory though, but I think it makes sense. And remember, she didn't order Daemon to kill Nettles; that was directed to Manfryd Mooton. She told MANFRYD to kill Nettles, and then she commanded him to send Daemon back to her because she had "urgent need of him". Since Daemon wasn't supposed to know the content of the letter, he wasn't supposed to see the INDIRECT accusation of infidelity

Rhaenyra most likely believed that even though killing Nettles was a very drastic action and one that he might dislike, he would catch the hint. But his having the knowledge of the nature of the High Treason that Rhaenyra declared led him to believe that she had gone mad. While killing Laenor allowed Daemon to marry Rhaenyra, killing Nettles for allegedly being his lover, while they have an indispensable need for dragons during this war, didn't ring like a decision for "the greater good", but a cruel one that, according to the text, he had never expected

But this is the advice she had been given by her councillors. Her MEN. Yet I don’t see anyone in this fandom, including tb, say they were paranoid. But they weren’t paranoid, indeed, so why would Rhaenyra be? She was put in an impossible position, yet this entire fandom blames her for following her council’s advice and doing what every (male) monarch would have done in her place

The ones notably in favour of the death warrant were the Manderlys, respected for both their intelligence and loyalty, by everyone, even post war. And yet there’s no record of them blaming Rhaenyra for what happened, and they never trash her reputation

If GRRM really wanted us to think she was paranoid, he would’ve made them the source/the opposition against her decisions. Even Gerardys, who defended Nettles’ side, likely wasn’t even privy to the deliberations when the council decided on the death order. There were obviously two separate meetings, and not just the one after they found out about Tumbleton: the second is after Corlys betrayed them, and since Rhaenyra later seemed very pissed off about the whole shit show, she chose to dismiss Gerardys, so he probably wasn’t included (she was so paranoid and crazy that she sent him back to Dragonstone, you know her literal home where Baela was staying?? Damn, so paranoid…) Meaning: everyone in that second meeting was in favour of the order

There’s also Largent, captain of the Gold Cloaks, someone who saw firsthand what was happening in King’s Landing (he was the one sent to arrest Addam) and how the people were feeling day by day. He witnessed the growing unrest up close, and he knew they needed Daemon (who was also his close friend)

Then there’s Marbrand, someone Rhaenyra had known for a long time, to the point that she actually mourned his death later on. That tells us he was probably a good man, and definitely loyal

Even Celtigar’s stance wasn’t just about his usual beef with bastards: he pointed out that the two traitors had fought bravely at the Gullet, and still ended up betraying the Blacks. He had somewhat of a point here

I think Rhaenyra believed the Mootons would obey because this wasn’t their first time dealing with something like this. Jonah Mooton (most likely Manfryd’s own father…) had been Princess Saera’s lover during Jaehaerys’ reign. And Jaehaerys himself killed one of Saera’s other lovers (Braxton Beesbury) under his own roof because of the affair, in a combat, because as the monarch, he had declared Braxton guilty of treason. The nobles at the court are the Crown’s guests. That’s almost exactly the kind of situation Rhaenyra crafted with Nettles. Jaehaerys later married Jonah off to a woman, basically forcing him to “repent” for his sins

So ever since the Mootons had learned to keep a low profile, and that’s why the line “The Old King would’ve never asked this of any man of honour” is honestly hilarious in hindsight, because the Old King literally did the same thing. Suddenly the whole “guest right” argument starts to sound pretty shallow. They were scared though, so honestly I don’t even blame them. But it was more about fear than it was about loyalty or conscience

And the truth is, Jaehaerys was a man, Rhaenyra wasn’t, it made the whole difference, one that GRRM wanted to paint by mirroring these two situations. Had Rhaenyra been a man, I’m pretty sure Daemon would’ve ended up hacked into pieces. In any case, GRRM wrote Jaehaerys' reign AFTER Daemon and Rhaenyra's stories: he definitely wrote Rhaenyra's dilemma with Jaehaerys in mind. But people unfortunately don’t know what parallelism in literature means, nor any other literary device… they have no knowledge of literary analysis, and are unable to distinguish the different types/levels of connections. They harass you and assume every “parallels” you point out is “tb delusional haha Rhaenyra racist just accept it.” Other than that, the parallelism here is UNDENIABLE because GRRM gave us several clues :

1/Jaehaerys killed Braxton, a very arrogant young man, in a single combat = Daemon killed Aemond, a very arrogant young man, in a single combat. Aemond and Braxton both believed they could win the fight against the "old men" (in the text, Jaehaerys declares that he's the old man Braxton will face; Daemon is called "the old prince" during his confrontation with his nephew)

2/Jaehaerys shoved Blackfyre into Braxton's eye = Daemon shoved Dark Sister into Aemond's eye

3/Jaehaerys and Daemon were both 49. Braxton was 19, Aemond was 20

4/Saera was forced by Jonquil Darke to watch the duel from a tower, she witnessed Braxton's death, who was her lover = When Daemon sent Nettles away, Caraxes screamed, and the windows of Jonquil's Tower shattered. Alys watched the Battle of the Gods Eye from a tower, and she witnessed Aemond's death, who was her lover. Alysanne refused to watch the duel because she was afraid of Jaehaerys dying; Rhaenyra didn't even know about Daemon's final fight and she never saw him again

What GRRM is telling here is that Rhaenyra was (IS) a victim of double standards. She was deemed cruel and paranoid for doing things that other Kings before her had done, and not during a civil war involving dragons. And yet, Jaehaerys was nicknamed 'the Conciliator". Rhaenyra was Maegor with Teats. Were it not for misogyny, people would see it as the tragic story of a king backed into a corner and forced to take risk, and make sacrifice no matter what he does. A king who would be in an impossible position, with a painful dilemma to face. Just like Empress Matilda, Rhaenyra went from the Realm’s Delight, to Maegor with Teats for doing things KINGS did. It’s how historiography portray those women

Now Cregan Stark. He didn’t even care. After hearing what happened, he blamed the people who led the rioters, AND Corlys. Because “guest right” doesn’t really apply in a situation like this, or let’s say the circumstances (DRAGONS) change everything. Otherwise, the Warden of the North (especially one famous for his strict sense of honour) would’ve freaked out if his own bannermen had broken it

The Mootons had begged Rhaenyra to send dragons: she sent them two, and they were happy about it. But now she was not only ordering them to kill a dragonrider, but also to send the other one back home, leaving them exposed to Aemond once again. AND NOW King’s Landing was under imminent threat (and would possibly be destroyed, as we saw at Tumbleton), and it was the last barrier between Tumbleton and the northern Crownlands

Telling the Mootons that KL might fall (again, after the first time was bloodless), which meant that they would be next, that Aemond was still burning random towns and villages, that Addam was on the run God knows where, and that they were hosting the last dragonrider with the power to burn them… none of this exactly encourages loyalty (and indeed, they deflected for less than that)

Daemon, on the other hand, did believe Rhaenyra had gone mad and that Mysaria had poisoned her mind against him

(kind of like when the people of Duskendale accused Lady Serala of manipulating her husband Lord Darklyn, leading to the Defiance of Duskendale, leading to Aerys to annihilate the whole place…

…but since they LOVED their Lord, they refused to blame him and scapegoated his FOREIGN wife: she was from Myr and they called her the Lace Serpent. Mysaria was from Lys, and she was called the White Worm. Serala's female parts were torn apart, and Mysaria was stripped naked and was made to cross King's Landing; she was whipped to death. Those very gendered deaths. Doesn’t it sound a bit familiar to you?)

But let’s be honest: Daemon was a bit of a fool for not questioning why Rhaenyra was acting so drastically. He should have known something was seriously wrong. Instead of flying back to King’s Landing to get answers, he assumed the worst and abandoned her entirely because he had lost trust in her (the same way Corlys distrusted Rhaenyra so much that he accepted the risk of being arrested and executed) then, he committed suicide. To me he seemed like the mentally unstable one, and not his wife. But he’s a man, so people will overlook this and frame Rhaenyra as a mad woman instead

It all comes back to trust at the end of the day, and guess what: Daemon and Corlys were the ones who no longer trusted Rhaenyra. She had no idea… if that’s paranoia, then she’s not very good at it

Eustace wrote that Rhaenyra had been betrayed so many times that she expected the worst of any man, even the ones she loved. I'd remind you that Eustace wrote his account YEARS after the war, with the benefit of HINDSIGHT. Obviously, he knows Rhaenyra was going to suffer multiple betrayals: he wrote everything after it all happened... her decision was not motivated by some paranoid reasoning, but by the urging of her councillors. She hadn't expected a usurpation, or Luke's death, or the Gullet, or the assassination attempt on Dragonstone after Blood and Cheese, or the disappearance of Aegon II and his children, or the theft of the royal treasury, or Tumbleton, or the Mootons' deflection, or Corlys' betrayal, Addam and Nettles' flight, Daemon's suicide mission, the dragons murdered in the Dragonpit, Joffrey falling from the sky, Dragonstone falling to the enemy. But I hear every day that she was broken by grief and paranoid The double standards and the misogyny are absolutely INSANE. Eustace is basically blaming her by saying that she alone caused all those betrayals. But Addam had been warned in advance: even if Rhaenyra had decided to do nothing, he had already fled, which means that she was betrayed before she even knew. People are saying that Rhaenyra’s flaws caused her own demise, she had a hand in her fate. Well, that’s the narrative that was crafted around her, or around women in general. It’s the year 2025, but little has changed But there is ONE person who could’ve fixed all this mess: DAEMON. He could’ve gone back to King’s Landing, without killing Nettles, he could’ve told Rhaenyra that Nettles was trustworthy and brave. No one will ever convince me that Rhaenyra wouldn’t have listened to him. The whole point was that she was afraid Daemon would be harmed. All he had to do was to come back. But the man was an awful communicator, it’s one of his biggest flaws

And the raven Rhaenyra sent WAS NOT ADDRESSED TO HIM. Something I explained here

A little side note: once you untangle all of those historiographical elements and their sources, it goes like this:

-> Letter with the mistress high treason declaration

-> Daemon blames Mysaria

-> The rumour spread after his death because of his assumption

-> Mushroom brings up the rumours in his testimony AFTER THE WAR without adding any of his usual sordid details, because he wasn’t there either + Eustace (who was not in the council room when Rhaenyra asked her men what to do after Tumbleton) writes his own reconstruction AFTER THE WAR (aka “Rhaenyra’s” rant) based on the rumours he heard AND his own assumptions and biases and RACISM and CLASSISM and MISOGYNY

-> Gyldayn puts Eustace and Mushroom together

-> He brings up Maester Norren’s chronicles and their infamous bathing-together part, to back up this story. The phrase "But in light of what followed" means that the alleged affair between Daemon and Nettles was crafted in hindsight

Everything stems from the letter. Rhaenyra did not hear of the rumours, she CREATED them You will notice how none of this is mentioned in TPATQ: Mushroom’s contribution to this whole mess doesn’t exist either. Norren’s description of the events is also nowhere to be seen, save for the conversation between Mootons and his men, and when he gives the letter to Daemon

Basically, the allegation of adultery is mentioned: when they receive the letter; when the singers claimed Daemon spent the rest of his days with Nettles. And that’s all

What I’m saying is: the fake conversation between Mysaria and Rhaenyra did not happen. It was fabricated by Eustace (who is the source here) based on what he knew and thought. He’s the one speaking through Rhaenyra. She did not act upon jealousy; she and her council did with what they could, hoping it would work, and she didn’t actually believe that Daemon had cheated on her (and in case I wasn't clear enough, this post isn't about whether he cheated on her or not. He might have had an affair with Manfryd Mooton for all I care, the ending remains the same lol)

This is how men wrote about her because queens are jealous and emotionally volatile and they can’t even control their consorts’ hungers and they’re easily manipulated and and and ——-

so they shouldn’t rule…. There’s this strange phenomenon where people will suddenly be very loud about class struggles when it comes to Rhaenyra, whose insane (?because they make her sound like she was extremely classist) classism they will denounce, as opposed to other Lords or monarchs…? And the only time where they will adopt a more “neutral” view of her, will be by saying that “Aegon II was worse though!!” Sure… And yet, there isn’t any indication (unless you add misogyny in the equation) that she was particularly contemptuous of the smallfolk. She NEVER threw a feast for Joffrey, she began to PLAN one, FOR THE FUTURE. Because she believed herself triumphant, and wanted to organise an event that would mark said triumph, hence the formal investiture of the PRINCE OF DRAGONSTONE, HER HEIR. (Something funny: the biggest (if not the only) reproach Rhaenyra’s men had about her after the war, was not her paranoia or stupidity or whatever… it was that she believed herself victorious. Daemon also believed themselves victorious…) She did nothing Jaehaerys wouldn't have done, AND even her taxes (cf: Jaehaerys's regency) had more severe impacts on merchants and traders. Taxes were for EVERYONE, not just the poor. If masses had been starving in the streets during Rhaenyra’s reign, Gyldayn would've NEVER shut up about it. One major starvation epidemic was after the war, during the winter. As for Jaehaerys, he BENEFITED from taxes similar to Rhaenyra's, from BEFORE his reign. His Master of Coin was a competent Pentoshi man, who was murdered in the streets during a riot in King’s Landing… just like Rhaenyra’s Master of Coin, Lord Celtigar. What Rhaenyra faced were the usual hard economic times because of a war. The taxes she implemented were abolished during the early reign of her son. Aegon II had all his treasury safe in other places, yet he didn’t abolish his sister’s taxes, and commissioned statues of his brothers with the money it brought him. GRRM drew so many parallels between Jaehaerys and Rhaenyra. Jaehaerys killed the men who had murdered Lord Rego: he refused them the Night’s Watch, and instead they were hung from the walls of the Red Keep, and DISEMBOWELED. He even called them “lower than rats”. I don’t see anyone call him cruel or classist for that though…

A Septon being racist, misogynistic, classist, xenophobic… who happens to be the ONLY AND ABSENT source behind this conversation…. doesn’t that make SO MUCH MORE sense to you? Instead of Rhaenyra, who’s constantly misperceived?

This conversation is what we could call an etiological tale: it means that this is Eustace trying to explain the events that occurred in the Black Council. Sara Snow is also an etiological element. Etiology is EVERYWHERE in historiography. I posted this to analyse the scene and the clues GRRM gave us

It doesn’t have to be the truth. Here, it’s indeed not what truly happened

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queendaeron1 · 2 months ago

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Little analysis about Daemon’s choice to die: I’m probably going to ruin the dreams of people who love the idea that Daemon abandoned Rhaenyra and only killed Vhagar for Nettles..:

The raven Rhaenyra sent to Maidenpool was addressed to Lord Mooton. As we know, he showed it to Daemon, who was NEVER supposed to see the contents of that letter. Rhaenyra never ordered Daemon anything, so Daemon didn’t defy an order that hadn’t been given to him. He didn’t directly disobey his wife. This is a KEY detail that explains the depth of his reaction: Rhaenyra was ordering Nettles’ death, saying she had become Daemon’s lover, thus ordering Lord Mooton to execute her. She specifically ordered that no harm be done to Daemon but she didn’t spare ONE single word for him. She completely ignored him, but she did so because she didn’t think he would ever read that letter. He didn’t know that however

Not only did Daemon feel hurt by Rhaenyra, he also felt betrayed, and even more than that, he felt neglected and sidelined. It was something Viserys had made him feel in the past, and now Daemon felt like every bad thing that had happened to him before was happening again, it used to be Otto, now he believed it was the same with Mysaria. And when you add that to the grief of recently losing Viserys (in a horrific way: drowned, burned, butchered they said-just imagine how that feels for a father, and yes there’s a clear subtext displaying his emotional collapse) and Jace, and Luke and Visenya, (who had been so anticipated and so deeply wanted…)Daemon simply lost all hope. I’m not going to explain the mind of a suicidal person (everyone’s different) but it’s not hard to imagine what he felt in that moment and why he decided to end it all

Now here’s the core of my take: Daemon had definitely no idea what had happened at Tumbleton (the Mootons definitely didn’t know, or they would’ve mentioned it, and Rhaenyra specifically didn’t want them to know), where Ulf and Hugh burned and sacked the town, even though Rhaenyra had sent them there, confident in their strength and their two grown dragons, unlike the younger and inexperienced Tessarion. He didn’t know Dragonstone had fallen (to be fair no one knew at that point) he didn’t know Addam had left the capital, leaving it almost undefended, he didn’t know Corlys was locked up in a cell, or that Rhaenyra had subsequently lost the support of House Velaryon and its fleet. He didn’t know about the growing unrest in King’s Landing, the riots, the murders and fights in the streets that the Gold Cloaks struggled to contain, or the rising hatred or how Rhaenyra’s reputation was collapsing fast

Daemon knew NONE of that

That’s why it’s so stupid to say “he killed Vhagar but abandoned Rhaenyra knowing she was losing” because it’s literally the OPPOSITE. He thought they were winning, or at least on the right path. But the biggest looming threat was Aemond who was still out there burning towns, villages, fields, forests, ravaging the Riverlands. Daemon had said before that the Blacks had to take down Aemond. In his eyes Aemond was the most dangerous one because he was unpredictable unlike Daeron. And he happened to be the rider of the biggest, most terrifying dragon alive whose fire could melt fucking stone. Daeron could be dealt with, Ulf and Hugh were supposed to handle that. He and Rhaenyra had promised them big rewards so Daemon trusted they’d do it and they’d be reliable

In the book the narrator keeps saying Daemon was getting tired and defeated because Aemond kept slipping through his fingers. Add that to his depression, and now he’s getting this letter. Rhaenyra accused Nettles of disloyalty to the point of wanting her dead: Daemon felt humiliated in some way. Even though she didn’t say it outright, Rhaenyra was indirectly accusing him of adultery, which is HIGH TREASON. She wanted Nettles dead and Daemon brought back to her immediately. And all this when he still hadn’t managed to complete the one task his wife had entrusted to him. He probably thought he had lost her trust (and maybe even her love) Basically he felt like absolute shit and failure

So Daemon decided he would kill Aemond and Vhagar alone. From HIS perspective, Rhaenyra was on top. She had the upper hand, his daughters were safe, his son and stepson were safe. Kings Landing was well guarded, and his close friend Luthor Largent was trustworthy and competent (and it was the case) The Velaryons were still her key allies, the Northmen would march eventually. The Vale had a ton of knights, led by her own cousin Jeyne Arryn, whose ward was Rhaena. Baela and Alyn were guarding Driftmark and Dragonstone, the Riverlords were on her side. And with all of those advantages, Ulf and Hugh should’ve easily destroyed Daeron and his men. Plus, Daemon believed Aegon II was either dead or dying (and his dragon Sunfyre was missing) By all means the Blacks would win. But to ensure that victory, Vhagar and Aemond HAD TO DIE

By killing Vhagar (even if it cost him and Caraxes) Daemon believed he would be gifting Rhaenyra victory, because she’d be able to destroy what’s left of the greens’ armies. It would calm the Riverlords who lived in terror of Vhagar. It would be a massive blow to the Greens since Daeron would be the only dragonrider left (Aegon and Sunfyre were out, Helaena was out) Killing Vhagar would give Rhaenyra more and more momentum, the people would feel safer and they would be more peaceful (so no riots), and the common folk in vulnerable areas would feel protected. No more raids or sacks, no more dragon fire. People would maybe have the time for rebuilding and healing. Rhaenyra would be able to prove that Viserys had been right to name her his heir

Which also meant… she’d be at the height of her power. Her word would be law and her subjects would obey her, so she could finally order the hunt for Nettles. And if they couldn’t find her, she’d be forced into eternal exile, living in hiding, probably in poverty (which is what happened) and with nowhere to go since Spicetown had been destroyed during the Battle of the Gullet. With a dragon that could protect her, sure, but one that also made her easier to spot

For Daemon, killing Vhagar would benefit Rhaenyra and only Rhaenyra. Vhagar wasn’t a threat to Nettles anyway, or a very small one AT MOST (Aemond was waiting to jump, and he jumped at the chance the moment Nettles was gone) That’s why I think Daemon was so mournful. Letting Nettles go was the only thing he could do for her, and he knew that killing Vhagar would only make her more vulnerable. But it was the only way to keep his family safe, so he made this choice. Rhaenyra winning the war meant for Nettles a life of exile, constantly in danger, hunted down by dragons. Daemon believed that killing Vhagar would do a great service to his wife. Which would jeopardise Nettles’ very existence. Do you now understand what I’m saying? He was actually kind of a dick to her to be honest in that moment, because he could’ve absolutely gone back to kings landing and convince Rhaenyra not to do that. His heart chose to let Nettles go, he probably had hopes that she’d find a way to survive since she was fearless and cunning, but the key word here is: survive…( Less important detail: Daemon kind of forced Lord Mooton’s hand by threatening him, because he turned him into a traitor when he let Nettles go. We know that Rhaenyra was about to order a decree of attainder. Since Daemon thought Vhagar’s death would at last bring peace in the Riverlands, Rhaenyra would have all the power and time in the world to obliterate House Mooton, and most of all, all the right to do so, as the monarch. The thing is: Daemon seemingly didn’t give a single fuck about this prospect… all he wanted to do was to kill his little shit of a nephew so that his wife would be free of one of her greatest threats)

So yeah, Daemon died for his family. He knew he had to face Aemond alone, because Aemond only showed up when Daemon was alone. AND, to be honest, Daemon clearly wanted to do it alone. He had no spark left, he was lonely and grieving people who were still alive but lost to him. He thought he had become a burden to Rhaenyra, and maybe he was ashamed of what his kids would think of him. Maybe he wasn’t ready or capable to face his wife, because he couldn’t bear such an emotional charge. Dying was the last good thing he could do, even if it meant tainting his own “honour”

Unfortunately she never got to know the truth about what he felt or what he was trying to do. She died exactly 5 months apart and I believe it was a deliberate choice to show how much she needed him, and how Daemon sacrificed himself because he felt like she didn’t need him anymore, but to make sure of that, he had to kill Aemond, it’s quite a circle... Basically, the miscommunication between them led them to their demises, Daemon was no longer there to protect her, before he died he felt like she was pushing him away

So Rhaenyra, I think, never knew Daemon’s last feelings and words, that he was so distraught. He never imagined how her last days would unravel because without him, she was alone and endangered. He doomed both Rhaenyra and nettles (yes she lived, but in precarious conditions and her dragon died before 153) by trying to do the right thing for them

(By the way I made a post concerning the passage with Rhaenyra and the Black council, and how Eustace poisoned the fandom, so just click here)

And here I explain how Rhaenyra didn’t actually believe he cheated and everything was in fact a huge and tragic misunderstanding

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queendaeron1 · 2 months ago

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Queen Rhaenyra and her great grandmother Queen Alysanne (and their… beloved, foolish husbands)

“The following morning, as the sun rose, Jaehaerys Targaryen, the First of His Name, took to wife his sister Alysanne in the great yard at Dragonstone, before the eyes of gods and men and dragons.”

“It is said that Queen Alyssa wept when she saw them. “You foolish children,” she said. “You know not what you’ve done.” Fire and Blood, Prince into King - The Ascension of Jaehaerys I

“Princess Rhaenyra had remarried, taking to husband her uncle, Daemon Targaryen. The princess was twenty-three, Prince Daemon thirty-nine. King, court, and commons were all outraged by the news. Neither Daemon’s wife nor Rhaenyra’s husband had been dead even half a year; to wed again so soon was an insult to their memories, His Grace declared angrily. The marriage had been performed on Dragonstone, suddenly and secretly.” Fire and Blood, Heirs of the Dragon - A Question of Succession

“Dragonstone would remain their refuge and their residence for the remainder of Jaehaerys's minority. It is written that the young king and queen were seldom apart during that time, sharing every meal, talking late into the night of the green days of their childhood and the challenges ahead, fishing and hawking together, mingling with the island's smallfolk in dockside inns, reading to one another from dusty leatherbound tomes they found in the castle library, taking lessons together from Dragonstone's maesters[…] They flew together as well, all around the Dragonmont and oft as far as Driftmark.” Fire and Blood, the Year of the Three Brides - 49 AC

“Princess Rhaenyra was a different matter. Daemon spent long hours in her company, enthralling her with tales of his journeys and battles. He gave her pearls and silks and books and a jade tiara said once to have belonged to the Empress of Leng, read poems to her, dined with her, hawked with her, sailed with her, entertained her by making mock of the greens at court, the "lickspittles" fawning over Queen Alicent and her children. He praised her beauty, declaring her to be the fairest maid in all the Seven Kingdoms. Uncle and niece began to fly together almost daily, racing Syrax against Caraxes to Dragonstone and back.” The Rogue Prince/Fire and Blood, Heirs of the Dragon, a Question of Succession

“After the death of Princess Gael, King's Landing and the Red Keep became unbearable to Alysanne. She could no longer serve as she once had, as a partner to the king in his labors, and the court was full of strangers whose names Alysanne could not quite recall. Seeking peace, she returned once more to Dragonstone, where she had spent the happiest days of her life with Jaehaerys, between their first and second marriages.” Fire and Blood, The Long Reign - Jaehaerys and Alysanne: Policy, Progeny, and Pain

“It was raining when the queen's party came ashore, and hardly a face was to be seen about the port. Even the dockside brothels appeared dark and deserted, but Her Grace took no notice. Sick in body and spirit, broken by betrayal, Rhaenyra Targaryen wanted only to return to her own seat, where she imagined that she and her son would be safe.” Fire and Blood, The Dying of the Dragons - Rhaenyra Overthrown

“Worn out from childbirth, travel, and grief, she grew thin and frail after Aemon's death.” Fire and Blood, The Long Reign - Jaehaerys and Alysanne: Policy, Progeny, and Pain

“East of Blackwater Bay, Queen Rhaenyra was also faring badly. The death of her son Lucerys had been a crushing blow to a woman already broken by pregnancy, labor, and stillbirth…” Fire and Blood, The Dying of the Dragons - The Red Dragon and the Gold

“In the last days of her life, Queen Alysanne reflected on his words. “He was wrong, I think,” she wrote, “for surely the Mother Above loved my children more. She took so many of them away from me.” “No mother should ever have to burn her child,” Fire and Blood, The Long Reign - Jaehaerys and Alysanne: Policy, Progeny, and Pain

His words only deepened Rhaenyra’s resolve, however. “Brave they were, and dead they are, the both of them. My sweet boys.” And once more, Her Grace forbade the prince to leave the castle.” Fire and Blood, The Dying of the Dragons - Rhaenyra Overthrown

“This time, when he lit his son’s funeral pyre, he did not even have the comfort of his beloved wife beside him. The Old King had never been so alone.” Fire and Blood, Heirs of the Dragon - A Question of Succession

“The queen wept when they told her how Ser Lorent died,” Mushroom testifies, “but she raged when she learned that Maidenpool had gone over to the foe, that the girl Nettles had escaped, that her own beloved consort had betrayed her, and she trembled when Lady Mysaria warned her against the coming dark, that this night would be worse than the last.” Fire and Blood, The Dying of the Dragons - Rhaenyra Overthrown

“His Grace was nine-and-sixty years of age, and had reigned over the Seven Kingdoms since coming to the Iron Throne at the age of fourteen. His remains were burned in the Dragonpit, his ashes interred with Good Queen Alysanne’s on Dragonstone.” Fire and Blood, Heirs of the Dragon - A Question of Succession

“That Prince Daemon died as well we cannot doubt. His remains were never found, but there are queer currents in that lake, and hungry fish as well.” // “The smell of blood roused the dragon, who sniffed at Her Grace, then bathed her in a blast of flame,[…]Rhaenyra Targaryen had time to raise her head toward the sky and shriek out one last curse upon her half-brother before Sunfyre’s jaws closed round her, tearing off her arm and shoulder.” Fire and Blood, The Dying of the Dragons - Rhaenyra Overthrown

Daemon and Rhaenyra had no resting place, and their ashes were never interred together unlike Jaehaerys and Alysanne. I do not believe that Sunfyre somehow left out Rhaenyra’s leg, I’d say this is Eustace painting events under the eye of the Seven, as he did with Jace when he flew to the North. Rhaenyra left no remains, Daemon’s were never found. The only thing that connected them in death was that they perished in opposite elements, and opposites are interlinked, even if they’re separated. GRRM once said:

These things don't necessarily have happy endings, but aren't the most powerful romances the unfulfilled romances - the romances where people go their separate ways, but they'll always have Paris, like in Casablanca, one of the films I showed here. You know, they go separate at the end, but they'll always have Paris." And she basically said, "No, you're wrong. They have to be happily ever after together for it to be romance, otherwise it's just sad."

Rhaenyra wanted to return to Dragonstone because it was the only place where she’d be safe, the place where she had been so happy and fulfilled, where she had married Daemon, where she had given birth to three of her sons. Dragonstone was her Paris, as it was for Queen Alysanne. Rhaenyra never got to tell Daemon goodbye, and he died believing she was unreachable, but they always had Paris, and it is something Rhaenyra never let go of. Rhaenyra could’ve found shelter at the Eyrie or White Harbor, and it might have saved her life, but she only wanted to return to Paris

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #fire and blood #rhaenyra targaryen #alysanne targaryen #f&b #daemon targaryen #jaehaerys targaryen #daemyra #team black #house targaryen #daemon x rhaenyra #this is so depressing #pro rhaenyra targaryen #pro team black #queen rhaenyra #the princess and the queen

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