rotg-goc-headcanons

[rotg-goc-headcanons]

How would Jack act if he was sick (in modern AU) or in rotg/rotbtfd verse?

Hello, sorry I didn’t get to this sooner! (Omg April???)

In a modern AU I think it’s really the authors choice because every modern AU interprets his situation differently, which would change and affect his reactions. Plus he’s aged up or down sometimes depending on the context.

In canon I think that he’s the type to conceal it and curl up somewhere to recover. I mostly say this because of how he reacted to a) getting accused of trading baby tooth for his memories, b) getting his staff snapped, c) getting knocked unconscious when defending sandy, and d) getting knocked out of the sky in the final battle.

All of those examples have him get injured, yet he seems to jump back quite quickly.

If we look at it as a doylist, then it’s just a mechanic to soften the stress of the situation and get back to the action fairly promptly.

But if we look at it as a Watsonian, then it’s just looks a lot like Jack is embarrassed and trying to play it off and shake off attention/concern.

So I think Jack would generally hide or tough it out in front of others to avoid that type of pitying attention.

I do think tho that he would react differently when faced one-to-one. He tends to react more openly when in private - speaking to north in his office, tooth at the pond, bunny in the warren.

So he may be a bit more openly miserable when with someone he’s comfortable with and alone with.

As for other factors - I don’t think he’d be particularly clingy or weepy until the illness/injury was bad. Bc then his pride would lose to genuine medical concern or just outright pain. And then that would raise all sorts of alarm bells in his friend’s minds too.

Hope that answered ur question :p

[rotg-goc-headcanons]

Jack used to love sassafras tea and root beer made with sassafras and was very annoyed when it was banned from commercial use in 1960. Being immortal and having your favorite foods disappear sucks.

[rotg-goc-headcanons]

Thanks to the help of the Elephant, Toothiana has been able to put a name to every single Sister of Flight that stands frozen in the Temple grounds. Especially the names that Rashmi mentioned from time to time in her bedtime stories.

[rotg-goc-headcanons]

Jack's sparkle powers & rotg's continuity issues

commenting on some replies from a previous post

I understand that Jack's sparkle move is not actually sparkles.

It's never really explained what it is, though tbf. It could be a bolt of ice or frost, but I prefer the idea that he's performing a sort of superfreeze move that's turning all the water in the air around him/in a direction into ice crystals,

which is why the sand explodes almost from the inside out, and curving along the arc, it's got more water in it (presumably bc the nightmares are living, breathing, creatures) than the surrounding air.

hence.. sparkle powers.

I don't think it's a "basic" or "simple" move that just everyone can do.

A big part of why I love the idea that he's a civilian is because it pulls back from the prodigy archetype.

There's not a lot of reason for Jack to be a prodigy either. He's the audience surrogate, the guy who needs things explained because the audience doesn't know either. His background is meant to show his isolation, set up his motivation, and having him be a prodigy would raise questions that the movie doesn't have time to answer - why is he a prodigy, who trained him, why couldn't he just hang out with this trainer who could see him?

(the idea that there's this host of other spirits available to talk to is also complete fanon, and no the Rufftoon Comics don't count, neither do the GoC books. There is canonically 2 known spirits outside of the Guardians and Jack - the Leprechaun, and the Groundhog.)

It also just makes him more sympathetic, and builds Pitch up as dangerous. A civilian vs. the Joker is more frightening than Batman vs. the Joker.

Jack's a bad fighter. He lowers his guard too readily, he rushes in without a plan, he freezes up, his moves are predictable and limited.

And while that might be my opinion, I think it is backed up by the juxtaposition of the Guardians to Jack in just about every fight. He's shit scared, frozen up, caught in a bad position and needing a rescue - while they're moving perfectly in synch, reading each others minds, picking up each others slack (including Jack's most of the time). If nothing else then I think the sheer confidence and ease they show in every fight proves that Jack is subpar.

The final fight still has Jack make multiple mistakes that he needs rescuing from - mistakes that build tension, that wouldn't exist if he was already a good fighter.

(bonus point) Jack doesn't freeze because someone else helped him, he freezes because he's shocked and scared.

This one I'm not actually willing to put up for debate, lmao sorry. He sees an attack coming that he doesn't expect/can't dodge, he freezes and then he is saved by Tooth and Sandy.

I am willing to change my statement from "this is a continuity error" to "I wish this was a continuity error" because, if it's not a simple continuity error, it's lack luster writing.

I feel it worked better as a new power discovery, because there was more theming to suggest that course of action. There was a significant amount of screen time dedicated to showing Jack's powers as proximity based (prior to the reveal). The opening scene in particular was quite poignant,

and as I said in the previous post, theres a lot of moments where Jack is shown to touch his staff, or his hand or even use his breath to cast his powers onto a surface,

it just felt very intentional to me. It would be a shame if it wasn't, all for the sake of two blink and you'll miss it scenes?

Jack's powers being limited to proximity based created an interesting weakness, an opportunity to power crawl, and a visual comment on his desire to touch all in one. Yet in two throw away scenes - that are never mentioned again, nor have any attention dedicated to them - that is all lost?

plus I think it weakens the reveal scene iteself. If it's a simple power up, instead of a new development, then... Jack's not gaining a new perspective in battle (ranged attacks), and he's not confronting his relationship with touch (by withdrawing from it, taking the focus off of it, being able to survive without it).

All Jack gains from a power up is confidence. Which he gets with a new development anyway.

So, maybe it wasn't a continuity issue, but I sure hope it was.

[rotg-goc-headcanons]

You didn't have to go that hard in the tags of the jack post

this one ?

I will stand by my belief that Jack is a civilian, not a fighter. I mean, aside from the fact that he looks shit scared and completely out of his element whenever theres a threat,

(some exceptions notwithstanding) there's also his total lack of fighting technique.

He has maybe 3 moves, total:

standing in defence (staff raised in front of him, usually tight to his body with both hands gripping it)

2. using momentum or distraction to carry a hit (see how he's gripping the staff towards the base so he can give it a wider swing - generating more momentum which makes the hit harder)

3. sparkles attack

and sparkles attack is a very new thing for him, it's the only reason he has any confidence in a fight, because he thinks he's discovered the atom bomb of attacks.

but it's not actually that effective, it caught Pitch off-guard sure, it revealed Jack's potential, sure, but once Pitch knew what he was up against he countered it easy-peasy.

what the sparkles attack actually does is give Jack a ranged attack, which is where he's most comfortable.

(side note: rotg does have a continuity issue with the sparkles attack. It's supposed to be a new thing, as previously he was limited to using touch to summon frost/ice onto a surface,

even in the sled scene, he's still using touch by dragging his staff on the ground, summoning the ice and then directing it after the fact.

but there's two instances prior to the sparkles being discovered where he uses that ranged ability,

he shouldn't have that ability yet, hence, continuity issue).

so having that ranged attack allowed him a foothold in a fight, but he's still inexperienced, so you end up with those moments in the final fight where he's caught off guard,

and while I'm arguing here that it's because he's a civilian and is not trained to deal with these situations, there's also his overarching development coming into play here.

He's spent the rest of the movie relying on others, dodging responsibility, and the antartica/memory scene really signals a change for him where he accepts that he needs to hold his own weight a little more. Him charging into this fight solo?

to me, that's the warning signs that Jack's taken that lesson too far. He's aware that he needs to hold his own in a fight, but he lacks the experience to understand that he needs to do so in moderation.

but that's a problem for future Jack (and fics) to deal with.

I want to circle back for one last point,

the comfort staff. Jack is constantly holding his staff up like this - close to his body, both hands gripping it. But this isn't a good defensive stance, he's not ready for an attack here.

Jack's attacks have him holding the staff in one hand,

there are some exceptions, but in general, he's attacking one handed. Again, using the momentum of the swing to carry his shots.

A much better defensive stance for Jack would probably be, funnily enough, a more open one. But that's where confidence is needed, and confidence comes with experience, which Jack doesn't have.

Jack behaves like a scared civilian, because he is one as far as I'm concerned lmao.

anyway, I apologise for the tangent, I'll take any excuse to yap about my boy.

[rotg-goc-headcanons]

Jack Frost HC that Makes Sense

I have seen three psychological disorders HC that make sense for Jack. One HC is that after he got his memories back, Jack Frost might have developed aquaphobia.

Aquaphobia is the intense fear of water. He froze to death and drowned before being reborn. If he can remember that, it makes sense he might have aquaphobia.

Jack might be ADHD which stands for Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. Can be known for impulsiveness, distracted Attention. Hyperactivity. As a person with two loved ones with ADHD, I could imagine him having it.

And he might have depression, 300 years alone would have a negative affect on his mind. I could see him having these.

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favorite rotg theory?

I honestly forgot most of the theories bc I disagree with most of them tbh. imo most fan theories tend to overcomplicate or villainise/de-villianise characters while completely missing the point.

but this is a positive question so i'll try my best lmao

I think my favourite is probably that Jack lost his memories not because of the Man in the Moon, but because he died. Whether that be because of a resurrection, or because of trauma induced amnesia.

Although, tbh, my personal (related) theory is that Jack never even died in the first place. If we look at his first scene, we can see him let out a breath as soon as he leaves the water

if he'd died of drowing, he'd have to cough up all the water he'd inhaled, or at least not have anything breath left to exhale.

(also, interesting that his breath in this scene is always misty, like its warm. and is like that for multiple breaths, so not necessarily "the last warm breath he had left in him" since he's continuously exhaling warmth. which also implies that Jack is warm-blooded, not cold or undead, but alive.

I'm realising now that I have a lot of theories... idk man, it's kinda hard to pick a favourite when you could debate every point with the same enthusiasm.)

then compare this scene to his memory of falling through the ice

it's so quick for a drowning, which are notoriously fast. Google suggests it takes 3 minutes to drown, which this is well under.

and yes, this is possibly just a cinematic verison of events, sped up for the viewers sakes.

however, what if it's not. what if Jack entered the water, the Man in the Moon saw it, knew that no one in this time period was going to be able to save him, and just sort of put him on pause. suspended animation, if you will, so that he had time to save him as best he could.

This theory is also part of my "the Man in the Moon did nothing wrong" movement.

What evidence do we have that the Man in the Moon has enough power to do anything more than he already does? What evidence do we have that the Man in the Moon didn't drain his powers saving Jack?

The only time in the entire movie that we know he actually, audibly spoke to anyone on Earth was the very beginning where Jack says he told him his name. And even that wasn't audible to the audience! Only Jack heard that, so potentially he could be restricted by any number of things - only being able to speak through mental connections, only to his "creations" or "beneficiaries", only through abstract thoughts.

If we throw GoC into the mix

(which nobody has to, but I like to. I've been vagued before about forcing other people to accept GoC as canon, but I'm not trying to do that and never was. I just like it and want to use it as my canon.)

then we can play with the timeline a little, as GoC canonincally happens "some decades" before the steam train is invented: The steam train is invented in 1784 so GoC probably takes place in around the 1740s.

Jack is 300 ish in 2012, so his "birthday" is probably around 1712. So he was around well before the Guardians even existed (or, well, the group was formed at least. GoC Manny, Bunny and Sandy are millenia old, North is in his twenties/thirties probably and Tooth is a bit of a mystery, so..).

Which means that the Man in the Moon resurrected Jack before Pitch was even woken by Nightlight, and he was presumed dead.

The Man in the Moon only ever communicates through specific mirrors (actually I think they were gongs but basically it functions like a window) in GoC, except for book 5 where they physically go to the moon - but book 5 is weird and breaks the RotG canon so I don't count it - which also lends itself to this theory that the Man in the Moon expended his power resource before GoC. So he couldn't talk to Jack more than he had. Jack would have needed to go find one of these mirrors (one is in the Lunar Lamadry in the Himalayas, I believe on top of Mt Everest????).

GoC also sets the Man in the Moon up to be kind but incredibly distant and unsocialised. He was raised on the moon by his parent's robot servants and only interacted with Earth through their technology. To him being alone is just his normal, so he probably doesn't see Jack's isolation as a that big of a deal.

anyway, sorry that got a bit out of hand. Here are some honorable mentions for theories that I like:

Jack is descended from Katherine and Nightlight (yes this breaks the GoC/RotG canon I just established - this would have to be a different timeline to that)

Jamie is descended from Jack's Sister

Jack's Sister is named Mary (technically confirmed to be true by Joyce - I like the nickname Molly for Mary)

Baby Tooth was granted free will by Jack naming her & will develop & grow more now that she's no longer a part of the collective (I think this originated with @drowningostrich but I'm not sure)

Mother Nature is friends with all nature/element/seasonal spirits including Jack and Bunny

There's a fuck ton of other spirits out there who have their own society that Jack was just largely on the outskirts of (not necessarily an outcast, but more like a forgotten aspect)

[rotg-goc-headcanons]

So I have a question for ya...why do you think ombric left Atlanta's(?)?

Ohohohoh funny you say that. Did I construct an entire possible backstory for him?

Yes

Yes i did.

Its a tragic tale. Young Ombric was studious and Atlantis was full of everything an aspiring wizard could ever want. The biggest thing that alluded him was temporal magic. Ombric was stopped from tampering with the past before, so one day he decided to try something smaller. He tried to see into the future. Atlantis was a marvelous city then, so the idea of seeing it developed even further enticed him. Just like Icarus and the sun, he was brash and unprepared. He saw Atlantis' ruin and crumble into the sea. Ombric was horrified and tried to warn everyone he could of the oncoming disaster. Instead of establishing an evacuation an, they simply focused on reinforcing safety precautions. Ombric was cast aside and life returned to normal for them. He continued to try and plead those he knew to flee with him but none walked with him.

Over time it only got worse, the rulers were getting greedier the more human their bloodlines became, more wars were raged and mindless indulgence ran rampant. Ombric could hardly watch.

He knew what was going to happen. Everyone he ever knew would die and none heeded his warnings. Ombric wished to know where to go from there, if he should stay and die with his people, or if he should leave. Just then, a glorious shooting star fell from the sky, pointing him to the land outside Atlantis. Ombric took it as a sign and left Atlantis with a heavy heart. Shortly after, it vanished into the sea.

Ombric kept this close to his heart for countless years, until he finally confided in a fellow mage that he hung out with in the Library Of Alexandria. It was the first time he felt like ancient weights slipped off his shoulders...just for a moment.

To this day, not even all the Guardians know. Ombric still carries some Orichalcum that he salvaged from the city. It serves him as a reminder of what he survived. Katherine, his adopted daughter, watches over the other pieces for him.

[rotg-goc-headcanons]

Rotg world building — Thoughts and theories

This was originally just going to be a reblog to THIS post but then I ended up going down a rabbit hole of my thoughts and opinions, so it became too annoyingly long for peoples/my preference.

Most of the post really expresses how I've always viewed the world of spirits in Rotg since. The only thoughts I'm not really a fan of is the idea of some spirits not having physical forms and just being like big storms. Because what's the point of humanoid spirits being invisible to humans if they have no physical forms to other spirits as well?

I never saw Jack talking to the wind as the wind being an active spirit, I saw it as him just being so lonely he'd pretend the wind was alive to not feel so alone. After all, he only addressed the wind 1 time, if it were an actual being I feel like it'd be addressed more than once. Especially when Jack needed to get out of Antarctica: why would he need to fix his staff to fly out if the wind could've just picked him up unless he was the one making the wind? And like the post linked above said, the comics are unofficial. They're cool and I love them but they're not canon.

I do love the idea of their being 2 generations of spirits. Pre-MiM and post-MiM where the legends of Gods and myths are tales of the original spirits mistaken for higher deities and distorted over time. After all MiM wasn't always there (at least in the books) so how were their seasons/seasonal spirits on earth before him unless they were just natural to earth?

Plus it's made apparent through Sandy's death in Rotg that spirits are not 100% immortal, just non-aging. I think there is an open window for spirits to come back like Sandy did, if an influx of enough people believe, Tinkerbell style. But after maybe a year or so, that window is closed, that spirit is full on dead and that spirit needs to be replaced to keep the world in balance. So there could've been hundreds of spirits that have been lost but then replaced by MiM. I also think only magic can kill spirits, since Jack managed to fall from like 300+ feet in the final battle and walk it off without so much as a limp. Like, it still hurt, he felt the pain, but he could still run, jump, throw hands and everything. He only groaned like he tripped down a small set of stairs.

Guardians are the only ones who could die without belief due to the vow they take. I feel like that vow tying their lives to belief could've actively been like an insurance policy to insure that the Guardians stay true and keep doing their jobs to fulfill childhood. It may be controlling and borderline manipulative for MiM to make them do that but I'm sure we're all in agreement that he is pretty gray as a character in the movie when you really think about it. And I could even see where he's coming from with this idea. After all, who knows how many spirits he may have made thinking they were good people, only for them to go dark and become evil. I'm sure MiM would hold a lot of guilt whenever those bad spirits hurt others or even feel at fault for making these decent people, eventual villains. Besides the Guardians know they could die if they lose belief when they make the vow, so it's not like MiM tricked them, that's consented. The Guardians just forgot to tell Jack that.

Now, I always saw "Spirit Society" as all spirits know of each other and word always gets around when new ones are made. I don't think there's a hidden city or village (other than maybe Santoff Clausen if it's even still around. And only for some of them, it wouldn't be big enough for all spirits in my mind) but rather they make homes for themselves and just cross paths with each other all the time. Kinda like the countryside; everyone's homes are far apart, but you still see each other in stores or at work.

I'm not quite sure how the news and knowledge would spread between spirits so often unless they were either all huge gossips or had yearly meets or something. But you know what, I'd be willing to bet that there are a few "messenger" spirits similar to Hermes in Greek myth, that just fly everywhere, spreading word for other spirits to make sure everyone is in the loop.

In my mind, Bunny's aggression early in the movie was meant to kinda show how most spirits saw Jack. After all, he's the only one who didn't feel like he'd be super recluse due to his job as he's the only one who doesn't work all year-round.

Unless he's a complete hermit, what is he doing for the rest of the year other than going out and hanging with other spirits?

I think most spirits hate Jack for being a troublemaking spirit that honed the deadliest season. That could just be my angst fanfic brain making things up but why else would Jack be so desperate to look towards humans to connect with unless he has tried with other spirits who could see him and was only met with backlash?

'Cause I have seen a few people complain that the ending of the movie contradicted Jack's arc of wanting to be seen only to leave the few believers he'd finally made. But that was never the point. He has what I like to call a fake-out arc; where it's said like he wants one thing but his actual goal is different. He asks why he can't be seen, he tries his best to get people to believe in him, but he's doing it in an effort to find a family.

He mentions how no one can see him but he's more devastated over why he was left alone. That's his main question in this scene. He doesn't outwardly ask why he's alone specifically, but asking MiM "why" just after he was looking so longingly at Jamie's family is clearly meant to insinuate that that is what he really wants. He may even be telling himself it's just to be seen because he's been alone for so long that he just wants the bare fucking minimum. That's why the end of Rotg is still satisfying despite leaving his new believers, because being seen was never truly the end goal, it was finding a family and he finally found that in the other Guardians.

He clearly believed that he couldn't be accepted by other spirits, so he looked to humans to find connection and getting to be seen by them was just a first step towards that goal.

It's the same thing in Tangled (because I have encountered someone who thought Rapunzel was one-dimensional for just wanting to see lights 😮‍💨) Rapunzel sang and always told Gothel + Eugene that she just wanted to see the floating lights, but the moment she steps out of her tower she starts singing in exhilaration about how she can finally go running, dancing, jumping and splashing. She never even mentions the lights. It had nothing to really do with the lights, she just wanted to leave her tower and explore the world. Seeing the lanterns was just her externalized and internalized excuse because she wanted to feel less awful for going against her 'mother'. Her wanting to explore the world was then more blatantly explored in Tangled the Series.

That's part of what makes him such a good layered character: the fact that he always used mischief in an effort to try and be seen, similar to when kids act out to get their parents attention. It leads the other spirits to think that he's nothing more than a troublemaker (and even audience as well, the amount of mis-characterization I've seen people make of Jack, istg) when in reality he's actually a very respectful, emotional, sweet and even responsible person that does know when to stop being silly. Jack never played around when actual danger came around, the only time he did was a one quip to Sandy because he was nervous and in the final battle when he realized being funny takes away Pitch's control.

And even then it was brief, after the kids started turning the sand gold again, Jack went right back into serious battle mode.

Kinda shows how not really mischievous Jack truly is when it takes him so long to realize that being fun can weaken Pitch. Because he's not really a trickster, he doessn't even really pull many pranks, he's just playful. But he had been cranking that up to 11 for the past 300 years in an effort to be seen, he inadvertently deterred other spirits away, who may had already not liked him just for being an ice based spirit. After all, whenever Bunny wanted to take a stab at Jack it was either at his invisibility or for his ice. Granted that could just be because Bunny himself just doesn't like the cold or even strictly because Jack made that blizzard on Easter but then again, we never got to see that for ourselves. We don't know if Jack even did that on purpose or not.

Last note; I don't think any other spirits died to become spirits like Jack did. It's my personal headcanon that the reason Jack couldn't remember his past is because he's the only one who had actively died before MiM got the chance to turn him. Though for all we know there could be a few others who also forgot their pasts. If there are, Jack clearly never got the chance to ask.

The way this kinda diverged into a mini Jack Frost character analysis though 😅

[rotg-goc-headcanons]

Jack has handwriting like the cursive that’s on the Declaration of Independence. Jamie and his friends tease him about it

[rotg-goc-headcanons]

Okay, I’m curious about how the fandom in general sees Jack’s age. Please no fighting, and if anyone wants a ‘canon’ source, this post here that I found that lays it down well

[rotg-goc-headcanons]

Anyone else find it upsetting that Jack got abandoned by the guardians because he messed up once?

Not only that but he didn’t straight up go looking for his memories, he heard a child calling him, he was trying to help some lost child and then got tricked my Pitch.

Can we also talk about how the guardians didn’t even try and hear him out? Even when they knew how good Pitch was at being evil and manipulative? Just one mistake and he was out of there.

These people were all he had for friends/family in 300 years and he didn’t even remember his life before to know that. And the second he messed up (which arguably wasn’t even his fault) he was kixked to the curb