superfroak

[superfroak]

For the most part I guess I can’t disagree with this, I’m just more willing to buy into the story’s ideas of using magic to cope. And I think it’s interesting using it as a way to escape otherwise impossible to escape trauma, like using magic to escape an impossible locked room. But I think you’ve made good points that it isn’t as much about accepting the good with the bad as I thought. There’s a couple points I wanna argue against though. I don’t think the red flashbacks being framed as “tearing out the guts” was to preserve kinzo’s honor or anything, it was clearly done in the meta narrative to distress ange and lion, which I think was the point: not that revealing these things is airing out dirty laundry, but how does learning these things actually help them at all, personally? Sure, we as readers want to understand Kinzo’s character better, but does knowing the exact extent of his crimes actually do Ange any more good?

I think keeping the memory of others alive, and how exactly you remember them, is supposed to be framed as a tool specifically for your own benefit in the present, not really to actually honor them, which is why the actual truth doesnt really matter, and why remembering the good is framed as more important than remembering the bad. Of course the only reason this coping mechanism is at all feasible is because Ange’s entire family is dead, we directly see how poorly it works out for Maria when she’s forced to face actual reality with it. And yeah it does kinda require ignoring the other living relatives of the victims, maybe the idea was that they all already had faith that their family members weren’t at fault, and ange was the one most wracked by that doubt and thus still searching for the truth? I dunno, but if any of them were still invested in learning the truth it does fall apart a bit. So it only really works on this scale for Ange’s very specific situation, I guess (does it undermine the themes of not revelling in tales of abuse for entertainment if the most significant way to apply the thesis of the story is to one specific story of abuse designed for our entertainment?)

And I do wish kuwatrice was more of an actual character, its a bit unfortunate. Maybe you could say that’s the point, she never had enough autonomy to become a person, or that her character was meant to be filled in by chick beatrice, but ehhh.

And I think ryukishi shoulda done a lot more to make the trick ending actually neutral and valid, it claims it’s really just our choice but it really isn’t even at all. But I suppose the point is more to reward you for understanding his thesis enough to buy into it. But I’ll definitely be thinking on these points whenever I eventually reread it because handling these things carefully is part of what makes umineko work at all so I think it is worth reconsidering.

Also, not really relevant, but I think there’s some room to speculate on if those red flashbacks were even true, though I figure they probably are, the only one that really has room for speculation is kinzo wanting to steal the gold. I also disagree that it shows kinzo actively twisting the narrative to frame himself better, the theatregoing authority that gets him to tell his story at all is supposed to only show the truth, which I’d interpret as him telling the story how he truly believes it happened. I don’t know whether to interpret that as kinzo subconsciously whitewashing his original motivation being from greed and not loneliness, or if he was so crazed by lonliness that he set this plan in motion in a convoluted effort to “save” Castiglioni. But I think it makes it more interesting. Though also, I think Kinzo having the power to “write his own narrative” being reflected by Featherine is a notable theme so i suppose thats still an element of it too.

Is it ACTUALLY possible to solve Umineko on your own? Like, realistically?

This article contains no spoilers beyond chapter 2, which is the bare minimum you need to read to even understand what Umineko is about.

As I was reading the answers arc of the Umineko no Naku Koro ni visual novel, also known as Umineko When They Cry, also known as Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru, I wondered:

Can this mystery actually be solved before the story explains the solution? And by “actually” I mean “being an average reader that spends a couple hours thinking really hard about it”, since I assume that it is solvable if you are a die hard fan with 4.000 free hours that is willing to re-read each chapter 10 times and write a book full of notes.

Also, by “possible” I mean that the solution makes perfect sense and can be reached by following logic steps.

I feared that looking up the answer on the internet might produce an accidental spoiler that ruins the whole experience. Still, I took a peek, since I needed some guarantee before committing the time to try and solve it.

I found some threads on reddit where everyone agreed that it was in fact solvable. Some people going as far as claiming they solved it all by episode 4.

So I tried to solve it. I spent some hours on it, rereading some chapter and competitions of red truths. I had some theories, but nothing that neatly explained all the murders. It didn’t look like I could get any further, so I kept reading.

After having finished the whole visual novel, reading over the manga, watching 8 hours of video on youtube, and reading old forums for even more hours, this is my red truth:

It is impossible to properly solve Umineko.

But then, how come that all those people claimed to have solved it themselves?

The truth about those people is that they did not solve Umineko, not by a long shot.

What those people did:

- Figure out a certain twist in the story that heavily implies who the culprit is and assume that’s the solution.

What those people didn’t do:

- Actually go through every murder and provide a proper explanation of how that character could have done it, supported by clues in the game and without contradictions.

Why is it impossible to properly solve Umineko?

- Most of the actions that the culprit must have taken are not hinted at all. - There is no limit on how many culprits/accomplices there are. - There is no guarantee that the accomplices or even the culprit are the same in all the games. - There is no guarantee that the culprit is not killed. - Anything that is not a red truth can be disregarded as “lies of the narration”. - Red truths are valid as long as they are technically true in any possible context or interpretation, which makes them worse than useless (more on this later). - It’s never explicitly stated that the Umineko mystery follows any of the “rules of a good mystery” explained in the story.

So, basically, there isn’t nearly enough information and rules to find the truth. Even if you reached a solution, you could never be sure it is the solution, and coming up with a solution given the listed conditions is unsatisfactory and trivially easy.

Before proving that, let me quickly address the riddle of the epitaph.

Is it possible to solve the riddle of the epitaph?

No.

Why is it impossible to solve the riddle of the epitaph?

Because the solution requires:

- The map of a certain country during a certain time period (none of which are mentioned in the first 4 chapters, I think, and I doubt you could even find it on the internet). - Expert knowledge of Japanese kanjis and a some Chinese. - Solving metaphoric riddles of questionable logic. - To be actually present in Umineko’s world so you can examine and interact with “the door to the golden land”.

However, the riddle of the epitaph is possible to guess.

This is what anyone who claims to have solved the epitaph actually did. They guessed the answer using these 3 steps:

1- Ignore the most convoluted parts of the epitaph and assume the location of the door to the golden land based on what would make sense for the narrative of the story. 2- Solve a play on words by interpreting it in the only way that would fit the description of that place. 3- Roughly guess how opening the door to the golden land could work.

—-

Now, let’s go back to the solution to the murders. I claimed that coming up with a solution given the listed conditions is unsatisfactory and trivially easy.

Let me demonstrate. Here is the solution for all the murders in Umineko assuming the culprit is whatever character you want:

- All the servants, Nanjo, and all the members of the family required to make it work are accomplices. They are either bribed, threatened, convinced or tricked. - Every death is being faked unless stated in red. - Every scene not directly witnessed and described in a literal fashion by Battler is a “lie of the narration”, so it never happened. - If it is stated in red that your chosen character is not the culprit, it is because the word “culprit” is not being used to mean “the mastermind behind the murders” but “the responsible for some particular action” that your chosen culprit is not directly responsible for. - If it is stated in red that your chosen character is not a murderer or did not kill a particular person, it is because while carrying out the murders they were roleplaying Beatrice, so the red truth is considering that the actual murderer is their Beatrice impersonation, not their actual self.

Easy, right? Completely unsatisfactory too.

You would assume that the actual solution is elegant, doesn’t require twisting the red truth so much, and is completely supported by hints, but you would be wrong.

The VN doesn’t even explicitly confirm who the culprit is and it doesn’t go into detail about how each murder was carried out either. However, the manga does. I will refer to this as the “official solution”.

The official solution is so bad and full of holes and contradictions that a lot of people think it’s actually a trap set by the author for “people who stop thinking”.

So there’s 2 possibilities here:

- Umineko is a disappointment and is not solvable. The author did a poor job shoehorning explanations that were not hinted and forgetting details that contradict them. - Umineko is a hidden masterpiece. The author committed to a master trolling and pretended, even during interviews, that the flawed official solution is the truth, all just to hide the proper solution for those who don’t stop thinking. Let’s call this the “hidden solution”.

Why is the official solution so bad? Short edition.

I’ll go into more detail later, but in brief:

- The solution requires fairly ridiculous “anime logic”. - The solution doesn’t follow the rules of a proper mystery that Umineko itself explains. There are no clues to figure out how most of the murders where carried out or by whom. - The are as many clues pointing to the culprit as there are red truths contradicting it. - The solution is willing to disregard basically everything that is not a red truth as “lies of the narration”. - The red truth directly contradicts this solution, unless we interpret it in arbitrary and twisted ways in order for it to mean something else. - The logistics and details of the murders are ignored. Corpses are moved around like pillows. The culprit is never stained by blood. Shots are not heard unless the plot requires so. Etc.

Is it possible to reach the official solution?

It’s possible to figure out who is the official culprit. There are heavy hints for it, hard to see initially, but sorta obvious in retrospect. Since it’s a big twist, you should be fairly certain that you found it when you do.

However, for the reasons listed before, finding the culprit doesn’t allow you to find the solution to the murders, since anyone can be an accomplice, any narration can be a lie and any red truth can be interpreted as something else.

So, what about the hidden solution?

Is it possible to reach the hidden solution?

I’m not saying a hidden, elegant solution doesn’t exist, but for the reasons listed under “Why is it impossible to properly solve Umineko?”, you would never know if it is elegant enough to be the actual truth. It would also certainly require 4.000 hours if not more. Such a hidden truth would require you to disseminate and analyze almost every single word of this 120 hours novel.

However, I don’t see how you can make sense of all the red truths without twisting their logic and meaning so they don’t contradict real facts or one another, which makes me think that the actual solution being bad is more likely than a hidden, perfectly logical solution.

Up until chapter 6, I would have totally bought that the whole story was perfectly thought off up to the last detail, but chapters 7 and 8 are so bad I don’t believe that anymore.

Why is the official solution so bad? Extended edition.

Since I don’t want to spoil it, let me give you a fictional example of a solution that is roughly as bad as the official one, with the same kind of justifications.

The following are not spoilers, just a completely fake theory I just made up that not only appears to fit perfectly as a solution, but also appears to be heavily hinted through the game:

The culprit is Maria. She is actually not 8 but 20 years old. This is the big twist that makes people think they have solved Umineko upon realizing it, regardless of whether it completely fits or not. Then they reinterpret everything as needed to make it look like it’s supporting this truth, as I’m about to do.

This truth is right in your face the whole time, as Rosa is constantly scolding her for not acting her age. It makes no sense that she would be that bothered by it if Maria was actually 8 years old.

This is also heavily hinted by the way Rosa abuses Maria in front of other people while they all allow it. Hitting a 20 years old is not nearly as abusive as hitting an 8 years old.

All the characters agree to treat Maria as an 8 years old since that’s the way she acts and they don’t want to be mean to her, unlike her mother. This is also the reason why she is visually depicted as a little kid; as far as anyone is concerned, she is a little kid. “Without love it cannot be seen”; because they love Maria and respect her personality, they can see her as a kid.

This is all a facade maintained by Maria to trick everyone. She’s such a fanatic of the occult that her mask slips when talking about the topic and she starts acting like the creepy adult she actually is. Another massive hint that’s in your face the whole time.

She’s also shown to know Hebrew and have the whole Bible memorized. There’s no way she could be a little girl.

Even her appearance reveals the truth: She’s the only one who wears a crown, signaling that she’s the queen of the chess game.

If you have read up to chapter 5, you should recall a scene in which a certain character seriously confronts her about the existence of magic as if she was an adult, to the surprise of everyone else, who think this character is being rude. This is another massive hint that she’s actually an adult and everyone is pretending for her sake.

The reason she carries out the murders is because she truly believes Beatrice exists and will be resurrected with the ritual depicted in the epitaph. She is always saying so openly and being unaffected by the murders no matter how grueling they are or if the victim is her own mother.

The kind of person who claims to have solved Umineko would have stopped here and decided the mystery is solved. The twist is obvious in retrospect and it seems like Maria could actually have carried out the murders if she was an adult. It’s obvious that this is the solution, so there’s no need to think it further or go through every murder to check if it actually fits and is supported by clues. This story is a masterpiece!

But now we are on the internet and there are idiots who claim this solution is bad or contradictory, so let’s prove them wrong:

First chapter, first twilight:

Maria enters the parlor with a gun and kills everyone.

Yes, she kills 6 people by herself without missing a shot, even though in later chapters it’s said that the guns in the mansion don’t shoot straight and are very hard to reload for an amateur

She then carries 6 corpses to the storeroom at the other side of the garden all by herself, without getting blood stains on her clothes or on the path to the storeroom, and without anyone hearing a thing.

Later on, Natsuhi also has a gun. This confirms that there are guns in the mansion, so Maria could also get a gun, making this crime hinted and solvable.

First chapter, second twilight:

Maria goes to Eva’s room. Eva has no reason to suspect her, so she lets her in, then Maria kills her and Hideyoshi with the gun she carried hidden on her purse (another big hint; she’s the only one who can carry weapons around without being noticed).

The chain on the door was never set, that was a lie of the narration. This makes sense since Battler himself didn’t witness the scene. Genji and Kanon find the bodies and go tell other people.

While they are out, Maria somehow draws a giant magic circle in blood on the door, without moving the bodies or staining herself, the floor, or the bed where the corpse of Eva is laying. She had drawings of the same circle on her notebook, making this crime hinted and solvable.

You get the point, so let’s skip the rest of the murders and assume they can be explained by Maria somehow.

Let’s assume that in later chapters it is said in red that Maria is dead and her death was a homicide. This might seem to contradict our theory that Maria is the culprit, but it actually doesn’t. The sentence is referring to “Maria the kid”, which is treated here as a different entity from “Maria the adult”, in a similar way as how Maria treats her mother as either her real mother or “the evil witch” depending on whether she’s angry or kind. “Maria the kid” being dead means that she has discarded that facade and won’t use it anymore*. This can be considered a homicide since “Maria the adult” is the one who decides to “kill” her facade.

*She will actually use it one more time when it’s convenient for the plot, but this is treated as a resurrection and doesn’t contradict the truth that “Maria the kid” was dead at that point in time.

All of this makes sense and is solvable.

This is what the official solution apologists believe.

Umineko completely betrays the player.

Umineko is constantly asking the player to solve its mystery, going as far as to insult readers who don’t try hard enough, and seemingly assuring you that the game is perfectly solvable and follows the rules of a good mystery.

All of this is a lie.

I take particular issue with the red truth.

The red truth is introduced in a way that requires trust and cooperation from the player. It is not realistic to think that Battler (or you, the player) would be convinced that a lying witch that is trying to trick you would be trustworthy when explaining the rules of the game or the nature of the red truth.

However, you do the concession because you are, in fact, playing a game. You understand that the game is challenging you to solve it, so some rules must be laid out.

The red truth is accepted as a shortcut to avoid having to read through 2 hours of explanations for every minute detail. You accept that when “character X is dead” is said in red, the purpose is to tell Battler (and you, the player), that you should not waste your time trying to find ways in which the death of character X could have been faked, and for the story to not waste time either trying to deny every possible way to fake that death (which would be futile anyway since you can’t believe anything the witch says).

Red truths are sometimes used for misdirection, but that’s all good and part of the fun as long as they can still be taken at face value and interpreted literally. “Character X didn’t exit the room” tricks you into assuming that character X was inside the room to begin with, but the solution here is to take the red truth literally and don’t make any extra assumptions, not to change the meaning or the context of the red.

Eventually, however, the game provides consecutive red truths that directly contradict each other. The official explanation is that a red truth is valid as long as there is a way in which it could technically be interpreted as true. For example, if you and I are in the same room, I can claim in red that “there’s only one person in the room”, because I’m speaking out of context and by “the room” I’m not referring to this room, but any other room with a single person in it, or because you did cruel things in the past, so I consider you to be a “monster”, not a “person”. Therefore, the red truth “there’s only one person in the room” is no truth at all.

You might think it’s a cool twist that the red is not reliable and the witch was tricking you all along, and I agree that from a narrative standpoint it is.

However, from the point of view of a player being encouraged to try and solve the mystery, it is a complete betrayal of the truth you placed in the game.

The ending of Umineko is awful and the whole “solvable mystery” is a hurtful lie.

[superfroak]

You make some good arguments in your post, but I have to disagree, because the ending you say you wish happened is already thematically how I interpreted episode 8’s actual ending. Ange does learn to keep the good memories alive and that’s what allows her to move on. And I don’t think the fact that they were horrible people contradicts that because the whole point is that there isn’t a single truth to who they are, Kinzo can be both the horrible rapist and evil father he is, and still have also been the caring grandpa seen in episode 8. This is true of everyone, and to understand this is why you need to look at the characters with love and not just write them off as monsters. Ange did not look at them with love, she spent her whole life hating her family. In fact, I’m pretty sure your point about Eva not giving Ange the truth in order to let herself be a scapegoat is already blatantly true in the text.

I also disagree that the truth she learns in episode 8 wasn’t the worst thing she could have learned. Ange may have said she wanted the truth, and wanted someone to pin the blame on, but in actuality, she would have wanted nothing more than for the answer to be that it was all a freak accident, because that absolves everyone! She’s already spent her life blaming Eva, her only parental figure, along with basically everyone else in her family, and it’s done her absolutely no good in her life, all it’s done is torture her. She looks for the truth in the hope that she will find some truth that will absolve at least some of her family, she won’t have to doubt all of them any more, and in episode 7, she’s presented with what would be the absolute worst possible truth, that her whole family WAS greedy, sociopathic scumbags, and the only one who maybe had some merit and some care to give her, she rejected her whole life and is now dead. This is the truth in which her entire life of hating her family for being horrible, doubting every single one of them, is validated, and that’s why when she finally does see the real truth in ep 8, it’s the worst thing she could have seen, because not only is it something she’s literally already seen and reinforces what she already believed her whole life, but now there’s nothing else to see! There is no truth that will save her, there is no possibility of a truth where her family is absolved, the possibility which the catbox protected. The truth she learns is the worst she could have seen because it gives her absolutely nothing, she literally already knew it! And it means she has no escape.

And this is why her only salvation is to believe in a reality where there WERE kind and genuine moments between her family, even if she was too young to ever see it herself on the island, even if she has no proof. Because the “real” truth she is shown is too impossibly cruel for her to bear, she would never be able to trust anyone ever again, as shown in the trick ending. And she takes those “memories” of her family that saved her and allowed her to move on, and passes them on through her books and the orphanage.

And I think this is what’s truly great about this that I think a lot of people missed. At the end of the magic ending, when Touya visits the orphanage, which is decorated with Halloween decorations, Battler (through him) says that it looks “just like it did that day on Rokkenjima”. This line shows that yes, despite how it was portrayed in all the gameboards before it, Kinzo really DID throw halloween parties for the kids on the island, and it finally validates Ange’s magical belief that a caring version of her family did exist, even alongside all of their attrocities.

Also, side note, I never interpreted Umineko as actually claiming it would never explain its mystery, all it was saying was begging the audience to at least try to engage with the mystery, because the meta story literally doesn’t work otherwise. Any of the goats who provided actual arguments and theories are shown respect even if their theories are cut down, the only ones that are disrespected are the ones who only give arguments that serve as an excuse to not think about it and undermine the whole narrative. I especially think this was poking at people who just wanted to wait for it all to get released and learn the answer as it was coming out, and I think it survives a little bit in the fact that the gameboard murders are never really explicitly laid out, even in Willard’s breakdown it’s only given in cryptic terms that give the major hints but still leave you to go back to the chapter and piece together exactly how it happened yourself, it forces you to at least engage a LITTLE bit to get the answers, which is all it was ever asking of the reader. Even if the ultimate solutions to most of them is just wordplay and lies, I’ll admit that’s kinda lame, I was hoping for overly complicated phoenix wright/danganronpa style solutions considering how convoluted everything else about Umineko’s narrative is, but ultimately not too big a deal for me.

Is it ACTUALLY possible to solve Umineko on your own? Like, realistically?

This article contains no spoilers beyond chapter 2, which is the bare minimum you need to read to even understand what Umineko is about.

As I was reading the answers arc of the Umineko no Naku Koro ni visual novel, also known as Umineko When They Cry, also known as Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru, I wondered:

Can this mystery actually be solved before the story explains the solution? And by “actually” I mean “being an average reader that spends a couple hours thinking really hard about it”, since I assume that it is solvable if you are a die hard fan with 4.000 free hours that is willing to re-read each chapter 10 times and write a book full of notes.

Also, by “possible” I mean that the solution makes perfect sense and can be reached by following logic steps.

I feared that looking up the answer on the internet might produce an accidental spoiler that ruins the whole experience. Still, I took a peek, since I needed some guarantee before committing the time to try and solve it.

I found some threads on reddit where everyone agreed that it was in fact solvable. Some people going as far as claiming they solved it all by episode 4.

So I tried to solve it. I spent some hours on it, rereading some chapter and competitions of red truths. I had some theories, but nothing that neatly explained all the murders. It didn’t look like I could get any further, so I kept reading.

After having finished the whole visual novel, reading over the manga, watching 8 hours of video on youtube, and reading old forums for even more hours, this is my red truth:

It is impossible to properly solve Umineko.

But then, how come that all those people claimed to have solved it themselves?

The truth about those people is that they did not solve Umineko, not by a long shot.

What those people did:

- Figure out a certain twist in the story that heavily implies who the culprit is and assume that’s the solution.

What those people didn’t do:

- Actually go through every murder and provide a proper explanation of how that character could have done it, supported by clues in the game and without contradictions.

Why is it impossible to properly solve Umineko?

- Most of the actions that the culprit must have taken are not hinted at all. - There is no limit on how many culprits/accomplices there are. - There is no guarantee that the accomplices or even the culprit are the same in all the games. - There is no guarantee that the culprit is not killed. - Anything that is not a red truth can be disregarded as “lies of the narration”. - Red truths are valid as long as they are technically true in any possible context or interpretation, which makes them worse than useless (more on this later). - It’s never explicitly stated that the Umineko mystery follows any of the “rules of a good mystery” explained in the story.

So, basically, there isn’t nearly enough information and rules to find the truth. Even if you reached a solution, you could never be sure it is the solution, and coming up with a solution given the listed conditions is unsatisfactory and trivially easy.

Before proving that, let me quickly address the riddle of the epitaph.

Is it possible to solve the riddle of the epitaph?

No.

Why is it impossible to solve the riddle of the epitaph?

Because the solution requires:

- The map of a certain country during a certain time period (none of which are mentioned in the first 4 chapters, I think, and I doubt you could even find it on the internet). - Expert knowledge of Japanese kanjis and a some Chinese. - Solving metaphoric riddles of questionable logic. - To be actually present in Umineko’s world so you can examine and interact with “the door to the golden land”.

However, the riddle of the epitaph is possible to guess.

This is what anyone who claims to have solved the epitaph actually did. They guessed the answer using these 3 steps:

1- Ignore the most convoluted parts of the epitaph and assume the location of the door to the golden land based on what would make sense for the narrative of the story. 2- Solve a play on words by interpreting it in the only way that would fit the description of that place. 3- Roughly guess how opening the door to the golden land could work.

—-

Now, let’s go back to the solution to the murders. I claimed that coming up with a solution given the listed conditions is unsatisfactory and trivially easy.

Let me demonstrate. Here is the solution for all the murders in Umineko assuming the culprit is whatever character you want:

- All the servants, Nanjo, and all the members of the family required to make it work are accomplices. They are either bribed, threatened, convinced or tricked. - Every death is being faked unless stated in red. - Every scene not directly witnessed and described in a literal fashion by Battler is a “lie of the narration”, so it never happened. - If it is stated in red that your chosen character is not the culprit, it is because the word “culprit” is not being used to mean “the mastermind behind the murders” but “the responsible for some particular action” that your chosen culprit is not directly responsible for. - If it is stated in red that your chosen character is not a murderer or did not kill a particular person, it is because while carrying out the murders they were roleplaying Beatrice, so the red truth is considering that the actual murderer is their Beatrice impersonation, not their actual self.

Easy, right? Completely unsatisfactory too.

You would assume that the actual solution is elegant, doesn’t require twisting the red truth so much, and is completely supported by hints, but you would be wrong.

The VN doesn’t even explicitly confirm who the culprit is and it doesn’t go into detail about how each murder was carried out either. However, the manga does. I will refer to this as the “official solution”.

The official solution is so bad and full of holes and contradictions that a lot of people think it’s actually a trap set by the author for “people who stop thinking”.

So there’s 2 possibilities here:

- Umineko is a disappointment and is not solvable. The author did a poor job shoehorning explanations that were not hinted and forgetting details that contradict them. - Umineko is a hidden masterpiece. The author committed to a master trolling and pretended, even during interviews, that the flawed official solution is the truth, all just to hide the proper solution for those who don’t stop thinking. Let’s call this the “hidden solution”.

Why is the official solution so bad? Short edition.

I’ll go into more detail later, but in brief:

- The solution requires fairly ridiculous “anime logic”. - The solution doesn’t follow the rules of a proper mystery that Umineko itself explains. There are no clues to figure out how most of the murders where carried out or by whom. - The are as many clues pointing to the culprit as there are red truths contradicting it. - The solution is willing to disregard basically everything that is not a red truth as “lies of the narration”. - The red truth directly contradicts this solution, unless we interpret it in arbitrary and twisted ways in order for it to mean something else. - The logistics and details of the murders are ignored. Corpses are moved around like pillows. The culprit is never stained by blood. Shots are not heard unless the plot requires so. Etc.

Is it possible to reach the official solution?

It’s possible to figure out who is the official culprit. There are heavy hints for it, hard to see initially, but sorta obvious in retrospect. Since it’s a big twist, you should be fairly certain that you found it when you do.

However, for the reasons listed before, finding the culprit doesn’t allow you to find the solution to the murders, since anyone can be an accomplice, any narration can be a lie and any red truth can be interpreted as something else.

So, what about the hidden solution?

Is it possible to reach the hidden solution?

I’m not saying a hidden, elegant solution doesn’t exist, but for the reasons listed under “Why is it impossible to properly solve Umineko?”, you would never know if it is elegant enough to be the actual truth. It would also certainly require 4.000 hours if not more. Such a hidden truth would require you to disseminate and analyze almost every single word of this 120 hours novel.

However, I don’t see how you can make sense of all the red truths without twisting their logic and meaning so they don’t contradict real facts or one another, which makes me think that the actual solution being bad is more likely than a hidden, perfectly logical solution.

Up until chapter 6, I would have totally bought that the whole story was perfectly thought off up to the last detail, but chapters 7 and 8 are so bad I don’t believe that anymore.

Why is the official solution so bad? Extended edition.

Since I don’t want to spoil it, let me give you a fictional example of a solution that is roughly as bad as the official one, with the same kind of justifications.

The following are not spoilers, just a completely fake theory I just made up that not only appears to fit perfectly as a solution, but also appears to be heavily hinted through the game:

The culprit is Maria. She is actually not 8 but 20 years old. This is the big twist that makes people think they have solved Umineko upon realizing it, regardless of whether it completely fits or not. Then they reinterpret everything as needed to make it look like it’s supporting this truth, as I’m about to do.

This truth is right in your face the whole time, as Rosa is constantly scolding her for not acting her age. It makes no sense that she would be that bothered by it if Maria was actually 8 years old.

This is also heavily hinted by the way Rosa abuses Maria in front of other people while they all allow it. Hitting a 20 years old is not nearly as abusive as hitting an 8 years old.

All the characters agree to treat Maria as an 8 years old since that’s the way she acts and they don’t want to be mean to her, unlike her mother. This is also the reason why she is visually depicted as a little kid; as far as anyone is concerned, she is a little kid. “Without love it cannot be seen”; because they love Maria and respect her personality, they can see her as a kid.

This is all a facade maintained by Maria to trick everyone. She’s such a fanatic of the occult that her mask slips when talking about the topic and she starts acting like the creepy adult she actually is. Another massive hint that’s in your face the whole time.

She’s also shown to know Hebrew and have the whole Bible memorized. There’s no way she could be a little girl.

Even her appearance reveals the truth: She’s the only one who wears a crown, signaling that she’s the queen of the chess game.

If you have read up to chapter 5, you should recall a scene in which a certain character seriously confronts her about the existence of magic as if she was an adult, to the surprise of everyone else, who think this character is being rude. This is another massive hint that she’s actually an adult and everyone is pretending for her sake.

The reason she carries out the murders is because she truly believes Beatrice exists and will be resurrected with the ritual depicted in the epitaph. She is always saying so openly and being unaffected by the murders no matter how grueling they are or if the victim is her own mother.

The kind of person who claims to have solved Umineko would have stopped here and decided the mystery is solved. The twist is obvious in retrospect and it seems like Maria could actually have carried out the murders if she was an adult. It’s obvious that this is the solution, so there’s no need to think it further or go through every murder to check if it actually fits and is supported by clues. This story is a masterpiece!

But now we are on the internet and there are idiots who claim this solution is bad or contradictory, so let’s prove them wrong:

First chapter, first twilight:

Maria enters the parlor with a gun and kills everyone.

Yes, she kills 6 people by herself without missing a shot, even though in later chapters it’s said that the guns in the mansion don’t shoot straight and are very hard to reload for an amateur

She then carries 6 corpses to the storeroom at the other side of the garden all by herself, without getting blood stains on her clothes or on the path to the storeroom, and without anyone hearing a thing.

Later on, Natsuhi also has a gun. This confirms that there are guns in the mansion, so Maria could also get a gun, making this crime hinted and solvable.

First chapter, second twilight:

Maria goes to Eva’s room. Eva has no reason to suspect her, so she lets her in, then Maria kills her and Hideyoshi with the gun she carried hidden on her purse (another big hint; she’s the only one who can carry weapons around without being noticed).

The chain on the door was never set, that was a lie of the narration. This makes sense since Battler himself didn’t witness the scene. Genji and Kanon find the bodies and go tell other people.

While they are out, Maria somehow draws a giant magic circle in blood on the door, without moving the bodies or staining herself, the floor, or the bed where the corpse of Eva is laying. She had drawings of the same circle on her notebook, making this crime hinted and solvable.

You get the point, so let’s skip the rest of the murders and assume they can be explained by Maria somehow.

Let’s assume that in later chapters it is said in red that Maria is dead and her death was a homicide. This might seem to contradict our theory that Maria is the culprit, but it actually doesn’t. The sentence is referring to “Maria the kid”, which is treated here as a different entity from “Maria the adult”, in a similar way as how Maria treats her mother as either her real mother or “the evil witch” depending on whether she’s angry or kind. “Maria the kid” being dead means that she has discarded that facade and won’t use it anymore*. This can be considered a homicide since “Maria the adult” is the one who decides to “kill” her facade.

*She will actually use it one more time when it’s convenient for the plot, but this is treated as a resurrection and doesn’t contradict the truth that “Maria the kid” was dead at that point in time.

All of this makes sense and is solvable.

This is what the official solution apologists believe.

Umineko completely betrays the player.

Umineko is constantly asking the player to solve its mystery, going as far as to insult readers who don’t try hard enough, and seemingly assuring you that the game is perfectly solvable and follows the rules of a good mystery.

All of this is a lie.

I take particular issue with the red truth.

The red truth is introduced in a way that requires trust and cooperation from the player. It is not realistic to think that Battler (or you, the player) would be convinced that a lying witch that is trying to trick you would be trustworthy when explaining the rules of the game or the nature of the red truth.

However, you do the concession because you are, in fact, playing a game. You understand that the game is challenging you to solve it, so some rules must be laid out.

The red truth is accepted as a shortcut to avoid having to read through 2 hours of explanations for every minute detail. You accept that when “character X is dead” is said in red, the purpose is to tell Battler (and you, the player), that you should not waste your time trying to find ways in which the death of character X could have been faked, and for the story to not waste time either trying to deny every possible way to fake that death (which would be futile anyway since you can’t believe anything the witch says).

Red truths are sometimes used for misdirection, but that’s all good and part of the fun as long as they can still be taken at face value and interpreted literally. “Character X didn’t exit the room” tricks you into assuming that character X was inside the room to begin with, but the solution here is to take the red truth literally and don’t make any extra assumptions, not to change the meaning or the context of the red.

Eventually, however, the game provides consecutive red truths that directly contradict each other. The official explanation is that a red truth is valid as long as there is a way in which it could technically be interpreted as true. For example, if you and I are in the same room, I can claim in red that “there’s only one person in the room”, because I’m speaking out of context and by “the room” I’m not referring to this room, but any other room with a single person in it, or because you did cruel things in the past, so I consider you to be a “monster”, not a “person”. Therefore, the red truth “there’s only one person in the room” is no truth at all.

You might think it’s a cool twist that the red is not reliable and the witch was tricking you all along, and I agree that from a narrative standpoint it is.

However, from the point of view of a player being encouraged to try and solve the mystery, it is a complete betrayal of the truth you placed in the game.

The ending of Umineko is awful and the whole “solvable mystery” is a hurtful lie.

[superfroak]

I disagree on this. Ange had already spent most of her life resenting her entire family, she had no love for them, it’s not a matter of “coming to terms with her relatives’ flaws”, she ONLY sees flaws, she wants the truth so badly because it could be something she doesn’t know, only for it to confirm what she’s believed all along, that her whole family, even her parents, was horrible people. And she can’t keep going like this. I mean, she can, if you choose the trick ending, the game literally gives you the choice, but it turns her into a bitter, distrusting person. Battler in episode 8 is reminding her that her family was human, or at least providing a window for her to believe they were even if she was too young to see it herself, she sees how they could be kind and friendly to each other and be an actual family, and that is what lets her accept her family’s flaws and move on with her life, instead of wallowing in a hopelessly bleak reality and never trusting again.

Is it ACTUALLY possible to solve Umineko on your own? Like, realistically?

This article contains no spoilers beyond chapter 2, which is the bare minimum you need to read to even understand what Umineko is about.

As I was reading the answers arc of the Umineko no Naku Koro ni visual novel, also known as Umineko When They Cry, also known as Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru, I wondered:

Can this mystery actually be solved before the story explains the solution? And by “actually” I mean “being an average reader that spends a couple hours thinking really hard about it”, since I assume that it is solvable if you are a die hard fan with 4.000 free hours that is willing to re-read each chapter 10 times and write a book full of notes.

Also, by “possible” I mean that the solution makes perfect sense and can be reached by following logic steps.

I feared that looking up the answer on the internet might produce an accidental spoiler that ruins the whole experience. Still, I took a peek, since I needed some guarantee before committing the time to try and solve it.

I found some threads on reddit where everyone agreed that it was in fact solvable. Some people going as far as claiming they solved it all by episode 4.

So I tried to solve it. I spent some hours on it, rereading some chapter and competitions of red truths. I had some theories, but nothing that neatly explained all the murders. It didn’t look like I could get any further, so I kept reading.

After having finished the whole visual novel, reading over the manga, watching 8 hours of video on youtube, and reading old forums for even more hours, this is my red truth:

It is impossible to properly solve Umineko.

But then, how come that all those people claimed to have solved it themselves?

The truth about those people is that they did not solve Umineko, not by a long shot.

What those people did:

- Figure out a certain twist in the story that heavily implies who the culprit is and assume that’s the solution.

What those people didn’t do:

- Actually go through every murder and provide a proper explanation of how that character could have done it, supported by clues in the game and without contradictions.

Why is it impossible to properly solve Umineko?

- Most of the actions that the culprit must have taken are not hinted at all. - There is no limit on how many culprits/accomplices there are. - There is no guarantee that the accomplices or even the culprit are the same in all the games. - There is no guarantee that the culprit is not killed. - Anything that is not a red truth can be disregarded as “lies of the narration”. - Red truths are valid as long as they are technically true in any possible context or interpretation, which makes them worse than useless (more on this later). - It’s never explicitly stated that the Umineko mystery follows any of the “rules of a good mystery” explained in the story.

So, basically, there isn’t nearly enough information and rules to find the truth. Even if you reached a solution, you could never be sure it is the solution, and coming up with a solution given the listed conditions is unsatisfactory and trivially easy.

Before proving that, let me quickly address the riddle of the epitaph.

Is it possible to solve the riddle of the epitaph?

No.

Why is it impossible to solve the riddle of the epitaph?

Because the solution requires:

- The map of a certain country during a certain time period (none of which are mentioned in the first 4 chapters, I think, and I doubt you could even find it on the internet). - Expert knowledge of Japanese kanjis and a some Chinese. - Solving metaphoric riddles of questionable logic. - To be actually present in Umineko’s world so you can examine and interact with “the door to the golden land”.

However, the riddle of the epitaph is possible to guess.

This is what anyone who claims to have solved the epitaph actually did. They guessed the answer using these 3 steps:

1- Ignore the most convoluted parts of the epitaph and assume the location of the door to the golden land based on what would make sense for the narrative of the story. 2- Solve a play on words by interpreting it in the only way that would fit the description of that place. 3- Roughly guess how opening the door to the golden land could work.

—-

Now, let’s go back to the solution to the murders. I claimed that coming up with a solution given the listed conditions is unsatisfactory and trivially easy.

Let me demonstrate. Here is the solution for all the murders in Umineko assuming the culprit is whatever character you want:

- All the servants, Nanjo, and all the members of the family required to make it work are accomplices. They are either bribed, threatened, convinced or tricked. - Every death is being faked unless stated in red. - Every scene not directly witnessed and described in a literal fashion by Battler is a “lie of the narration”, so it never happened. - If it is stated in red that your chosen character is not the culprit, it is because the word “culprit” is not being used to mean “the mastermind behind the murders” but “the responsible for some particular action” that your chosen culprit is not directly responsible for. - If it is stated in red that your chosen character is not a murderer or did not kill a particular person, it is because while carrying out the murders they were roleplaying Beatrice, so the red truth is considering that the actual murderer is their Beatrice impersonation, not their actual self.

Easy, right? Completely unsatisfactory too.

You would assume that the actual solution is elegant, doesn’t require twisting the red truth so much, and is completely supported by hints, but you would be wrong.

The VN doesn’t even explicitly confirm who the culprit is and it doesn’t go into detail about how each murder was carried out either. However, the manga does. I will refer to this as the “official solution”.

The official solution is so bad and full of holes and contradictions that a lot of people think it’s actually a trap set by the author for “people who stop thinking”.

So there’s 2 possibilities here:

- Umineko is a disappointment and is not solvable. The author did a poor job shoehorning explanations that were not hinted and forgetting details that contradict them. - Umineko is a hidden masterpiece. The author committed to a master trolling and pretended, even during interviews, that the flawed official solution is the truth, all just to hide the proper solution for those who don’t stop thinking. Let’s call this the “hidden solution”.

Why is the official solution so bad? Short edition.

I’ll go into more detail later, but in brief:

- The solution requires fairly ridiculous “anime logic”. - The solution doesn’t follow the rules of a proper mystery that Umineko itself explains. There are no clues to figure out how most of the murders where carried out or by whom. - The are as many clues pointing to the culprit as there are red truths contradicting it. - The solution is willing to disregard basically everything that is not a red truth as “lies of the narration”. - The red truth directly contradicts this solution, unless we interpret it in arbitrary and twisted ways in order for it to mean something else. - The logistics and details of the murders are ignored. Corpses are moved around like pillows. The culprit is never stained by blood. Shots are not heard unless the plot requires so. Etc.

Is it possible to reach the official solution?

It’s possible to figure out who is the official culprit. There are heavy hints for it, hard to see initially, but sorta obvious in retrospect. Since it’s a big twist, you should be fairly certain that you found it when you do.

However, for the reasons listed before, finding the culprit doesn’t allow you to find the solution to the murders, since anyone can be an accomplice, any narration can be a lie and any red truth can be interpreted as something else.

So, what about the hidden solution?

Is it possible to reach the hidden solution?

I’m not saying a hidden, elegant solution doesn’t exist, but for the reasons listed under “Why is it impossible to properly solve Umineko?”, you would never know if it is elegant enough to be the actual truth. It would also certainly require 4.000 hours if not more. Such a hidden truth would require you to disseminate and analyze almost every single word of this 120 hours novel.

However, I don’t see how you can make sense of all the red truths without twisting their logic and meaning so they don’t contradict real facts or one another, which makes me think that the actual solution being bad is more likely than a hidden, perfectly logical solution.

Up until chapter 6, I would have totally bought that the whole story was perfectly thought off up to the last detail, but chapters 7 and 8 are so bad I don’t believe that anymore.

Why is the official solution so bad? Extended edition.

Since I don’t want to spoil it, let me give you a fictional example of a solution that is roughly as bad as the official one, with the same kind of justifications.

The following are not spoilers, just a completely fake theory I just made up that not only appears to fit perfectly as a solution, but also appears to be heavily hinted through the game:

The culprit is Maria. She is actually not 8 but 20 years old. This is the big twist that makes people think they have solved Umineko upon realizing it, regardless of whether it completely fits or not. Then they reinterpret everything as needed to make it look like it’s supporting this truth, as I’m about to do.

This truth is right in your face the whole time, as Rosa is constantly scolding her for not acting her age. It makes no sense that she would be that bothered by it if Maria was actually 8 years old.

This is also heavily hinted by the way Rosa abuses Maria in front of other people while they all allow it. Hitting a 20 years old is not nearly as abusive as hitting an 8 years old.

All the characters agree to treat Maria as an 8 years old since that’s the way she acts and they don’t want to be mean to her, unlike her mother. This is also the reason why she is visually depicted as a little kid; as far as anyone is concerned, she is a little kid. “Without love it cannot be seen”; because they love Maria and respect her personality, they can see her as a kid.

This is all a facade maintained by Maria to trick everyone. She’s such a fanatic of the occult that her mask slips when talking about the topic and she starts acting like the creepy adult she actually is. Another massive hint that’s in your face the whole time.

She’s also shown to know Hebrew and have the whole Bible memorized. There’s no way she could be a little girl.

Even her appearance reveals the truth: She’s the only one who wears a crown, signaling that she’s the queen of the chess game.

If you have read up to chapter 5, you should recall a scene in which a certain character seriously confronts her about the existence of magic as if she was an adult, to the surprise of everyone else, who think this character is being rude. This is another massive hint that she’s actually an adult and everyone is pretending for her sake.

The reason she carries out the murders is because she truly believes Beatrice exists and will be resurrected with the ritual depicted in the epitaph. She is always saying so openly and being unaffected by the murders no matter how grueling they are or if the victim is her own mother.

The kind of person who claims to have solved Umineko would have stopped here and decided the mystery is solved. The twist is obvious in retrospect and it seems like Maria could actually have carried out the murders if she was an adult. It’s obvious that this is the solution, so there’s no need to think it further or go through every murder to check if it actually fits and is supported by clues. This story is a masterpiece!

But now we are on the internet and there are idiots who claim this solution is bad or contradictory, so let’s prove them wrong:

First chapter, first twilight:

Maria enters the parlor with a gun and kills everyone.

Yes, she kills 6 people by herself without missing a shot, even though in later chapters it’s said that the guns in the mansion don’t shoot straight and are very hard to reload for an amateur

She then carries 6 corpses to the storeroom at the other side of the garden all by herself, without getting blood stains on her clothes or on the path to the storeroom, and without anyone hearing a thing.

Later on, Natsuhi also has a gun. This confirms that there are guns in the mansion, so Maria could also get a gun, making this crime hinted and solvable.

First chapter, second twilight:

Maria goes to Eva’s room. Eva has no reason to suspect her, so she lets her in, then Maria kills her and Hideyoshi with the gun she carried hidden on her purse (another big hint; she’s the only one who can carry weapons around without being noticed).

The chain on the door was never set, that was a lie of the narration. This makes sense since Battler himself didn’t witness the scene. Genji and Kanon find the bodies and go tell other people.

While they are out, Maria somehow draws a giant magic circle in blood on the door, without moving the bodies or staining herself, the floor, or the bed where the corpse of Eva is laying. She had drawings of the same circle on her notebook, making this crime hinted and solvable.

You get the point, so let’s skip the rest of the murders and assume they can be explained by Maria somehow.

Let’s assume that in later chapters it is said in red that Maria is dead and her death was a homicide. This might seem to contradict our theory that Maria is the culprit, but it actually doesn’t. The sentence is referring to “Maria the kid”, which is treated here as a different entity from “Maria the adult”, in a similar way as how Maria treats her mother as either her real mother or “the evil witch” depending on whether she’s angry or kind. “Maria the kid” being dead means that she has discarded that facade and won’t use it anymore*. This can be considered a homicide since “Maria the adult” is the one who decides to “kill” her facade.

*She will actually use it one more time when it’s convenient for the plot, but this is treated as a resurrection and doesn’t contradict the truth that “Maria the kid” was dead at that point in time.

All of this makes sense and is solvable.

This is what the official solution apologists believe.

Umineko completely betrays the player.

Umineko is constantly asking the player to solve its mystery, going as far as to insult readers who don’t try hard enough, and seemingly assuring you that the game is perfectly solvable and follows the rules of a good mystery.

All of this is a lie.

I take particular issue with the red truth.

The red truth is introduced in a way that requires trust and cooperation from the player. It is not realistic to think that Battler (or you, the player) would be convinced that a lying witch that is trying to trick you would be trustworthy when explaining the rules of the game or the nature of the red truth.

However, you do the concession because you are, in fact, playing a game. You understand that the game is challenging you to solve it, so some rules must be laid out.

The red truth is accepted as a shortcut to avoid having to read through 2 hours of explanations for every minute detail. You accept that when “character X is dead” is said in red, the purpose is to tell Battler (and you, the player), that you should not waste your time trying to find ways in which the death of character X could have been faked, and for the story to not waste time either trying to deny every possible way to fake that death (which would be futile anyway since you can’t believe anything the witch says).

Red truths are sometimes used for misdirection, but that’s all good and part of the fun as long as they can still be taken at face value and interpreted literally. “Character X didn’t exit the room” tricks you into assuming that character X was inside the room to begin with, but the solution here is to take the red truth literally and don’t make any extra assumptions, not to change the meaning or the context of the red.

Eventually, however, the game provides consecutive red truths that directly contradict each other. The official explanation is that a red truth is valid as long as there is a way in which it could technically be interpreted as true. For example, if you and I are in the same room, I can claim in red that “there’s only one person in the room”, because I’m speaking out of context and by “the room” I’m not referring to this room, but any other room with a single person in it, or because you did cruel things in the past, so I consider you to be a “monster”, not a “person”. Therefore, the red truth “there’s only one person in the room” is no truth at all.

You might think it’s a cool twist that the red is not reliable and the witch was tricking you all along, and I agree that from a narrative standpoint it is.

However, from the point of view of a player being encouraged to try and solve the mystery, it is a complete betrayal of the truth you placed in the game.

The ending of Umineko is awful and the whole “solvable mystery” is a hurtful lie.

[superfroak]

Inspired by @sol-stays comment

[superfroak]

Finally “finished” umineko (still got the last tea parties to go) and i gotta say, I thought I understood it pretty well but looking on this app it feels like everyone else understood it way more on some level I didn’t even get to.

It was very good though.

[superfroak]

The way mha’s ending makes the most sense to me is if i imagine horikoshi not writing it with the mindset of narrative and thematic satisfaction but with the mindset of just “what would these characters do, what sort of thing would happen to this character, etc”. Which leads to the heroes trying to reach out to the villains and give them a chance at redemption, seeing their humanity, and the villains all just saying no and dooming themselves. And like, of course afo had one final scheme to take shigaraki down with him, he totally would, and I guess now shigaraki’s gone and afo’s the only one left, and no one’s even thought about reaching out to afo so I guess deku just has to punch him til he blows up. And of course ochako would fall apart and return to old habits of suppression after toga died, though that’s complicated if the whole thing was broadcast worldwide so uh i guess the broadcast broke, so now she can have that moment. And sure, the tragic villains die, but nah it feels wrong for side character edgeshot to die that feels too bad, the heroes are supposed to be lighthearted so he’ll have something goofy.

And then this all results in the arcs not really concluding satisfyingly and the characters not having actually gone through much growth in the end, since they were just acting out their pre established characters.

Like, maybe this is what he meant by “[writing] with a sense of responsibility towards the world of MHA”, he’s just writing what these characters would do and it just doesn’t resolve well because the characters haven’t developed to a point where that resolution would happen. Idk maybe this is nonsense.

[superfroak]

Kiibo's memories of Miu, aka stills from my new animatic!!

[superfroak]

I made this animatic for all the Kiiruma angst we didn't get to see in Chapter 4

[superfroak]

Yknow, thinking about it more, it’s weird how the manga never actually resolved the predicament of “I can’t forgive him, but I can’t ignore that crying child inside”, the dichotomy of deku both wanting to save tomura and wanting to defeat him and bring justice to his crimes. He ends up just as wishywashy on it when he’s actually in the final moment as he was when he first said it, it’s still unclear whether he was confident in going all the way and truly saving him, or if he was held back by shigaraki’s unforgivable crimes. He just never seems to come to a firm answer or resolve that internal conflict, it kinda just happens. Maybe the idea was just that he wanted to see his origin to have proof that he really was human, but he didn’t expect to actually save him? Is that what “not ignoring the crying child” really meant?

[superfroak]

when she says she doesn’t send nudes

[superfroak]

This really feels like we got the bad ending instead of the true ending

I’ll be coping til the last chapter of the series that we’re gonna get some time travel shenanigains

[superfroak]

Crackpot theory/prediction but what if deku’s actually gonna have shigaraki mind meld with him like afo did to shigaraki. They can’t exactly get him a new body.

At the very least I wouldn’t be surprised if the reason deku wanted to awaken the vestiges was to wake up shigaraki and not only have him contribute to beating afo on his own, but to transfer to deku to keep on “living”.

I feel like the chapter makes a lot more sense if you think of afo shattering shigaraki as “killing” him, or at least removing all ownership he has of his own body, and so deku rushing in to punch him is actually to make contact and save his vestige from the crumbling body, which kinda nicely parallels deku trying to save bakugo from the sludge villain.

Still kinda falls apart remembering that giving him ofa is apparently what made him start to crumble in the first place but uhhhhhh

Maybe actually since afo controlled his whole life, that body was never truly his actually so it’s okay to destroy it and grab his vestige to try to give him a new life? Or something?

The most important part to understand though is that this whole thing is just the ending to phantom menace but way more stupidly complicated (and not to it’s favor sadly)

[superfroak]

True love feat. kiiruma

[superfroak]

mew and keebler

[superfroak]

it is crazy how “if this childrens show doesn’t kill their villain at the end it’s irredeemable media” became such a popular opinion here. like people were calling steven universe fascist apologia. and to be clear I don’t even think that would be the case for non childrens media, either. perhaps holding every single story up to the same standard of “does it follow the acceptable narrative path or is it evil propaganda” isn’t the most anti-fascist thing, either. maybe.

[superfroak]

it is crazy how “if this childrens show doesn’t kill their villain at the end it’s irredeemable media” became such a popular opinion here. like people were calling steven universe fascist apologia. and to be clear I don’t even think that would be the case for non childrens media, either. perhaps holding every single story up to the same standard of “does it follow the acceptable narrative path or is it evil propaganda” isn’t the most anti-fascist thing, either. maybe.