syscoursing

[syscoursing]

People don’t talk like that in real life, that’s why you only see phrases and pauses like that in movies.

I’m sorry but just. “Have you ever seen a movie” is such a wild thing to say. This is real life, not a movie.

The REACH. My mind is absolutely boggled.

The more I see of ecos-syscourse the harder I find it to believe they aren’t a troll or arguing in bad faith. Or just really naive ?? Like asking if you’ve (general) ever watched a movie to say that you were saying you want that friend group dead. And when someone said that posting an ask saying you support radqueers was irresponsible eco tagged it with something about ‘whenever there’s a Jew involved’ ??? Ridiculous .

Also, on a somewhat side-note, his stance of needing to be nice to anti-endos is so frustrating. Like, yes, sometimes anti-endos are just misinformed. But if you have a dedicated system blog, where you frequent syscourse, how long can you use that as a defence? If you participate in a hate campaign to take down, bully, hate, etc endos and pro endos, how far can you use that as a defence?

As a transgender system, and also autistic, this sort of talk gets really fucking tiring quick. I have been bullied, harassed, excluded, told to die, had laws pushed against my existence, etc. but I have to constantly approach everyone with kindness and respect? The same respect they couldn’t even consider giving me?

I have been trying to be nice to tranphobes, ableists and sysmeds for so long, and do you know how many people have changed their minds or shown my even a small fraction of that kindness and understanding back? I think you could guess.

Really!

Context for those who are just joining:

I wasn't even the one who use the word gone!!!!!!! They were!!!!!!

Like just... the "logic" here is maddening!

Saying a community is worse off with people who hate that community in it sounds like you want them gone -> "Gone" is used as a euphemism in movies for wanting people dead sometimes -> therefore you want them dead.

I don't understand how anyone could possibly think like that!

On the anti-endo thing though, it's not just them. I see this idea pop up a lot in syscourse that tries to frame sysmeds as just being "misinformed."

And it just makes me wonder if people have been paying attention at all.

If somebody is legitimately just misinformed, you can share accurate information and change their mind pretty easily that way!

When you can't correct them, when those people have been given multiple chances to change their minds and still double down, when they've been shown source after source proving they're wrong and it changes nothing... it's because they're committed to hate. Because the hateful views are entrenched. It's not just being misinformed when you cling to those views even in the face of accurate information.

It's willful ignorance.

Maybe there are some anti-endos who are just simply misinformed and open to changing their minds when presented with new information. But experience has taught me that the vast majority won't. When presented with the choice between facts and hate, they will choose hate every time.

(That's not to say sysmeds can't eventually change their minds. Many have. But the process to change their minds would be long and more akin to cult deprogramming than to simply correcting misinformation.)

[syscoursing]

This is why I call them “sysmeds” instead of just “anti-endo.” They’re anti-DID if it fits their narrative, and it frequently does.

r/systemscringe users are smearing doctors who have studied fictives again!

Why don't you check it yourself Grace?

I have the link in my big r/systemscringe debunking post in my pinned.

Okay...

That's not how research works. It doesn't just expire after so long if nothing come out that disproves the earlier research.

It's why psych classes still teach about a lot of older studies.

But fine, if you want something more recent, here is a quote from The Haunted Self, a book written in 2005! And the one where the structural dissociation model originated. If you believe in structural dissociation, this book is the original source for that model. It is possibly the most influential academic work about dissociative disorders of the 21st century.

And note how it says that the EPs were ALL based on Star Trek characters. It's not just a system with a fictive. It's a system made up almost entirely of fictives.

"Been involved in multiple lawsuits" is really just incredibly deceptive wording!

This information likely comes from the Grey Faction, an ableist branch of the Satanic Temple that believes DID is created by therapists implanting false memories into patients, and has been spreading that propaganda.

Of the three lawsuits it mentions, one is under a gag order so no details are known about it. Another, the Grey Faction admits was quickly dismissed.

There is exactly one lawsuit which we know details of that was settled out of court. In that lawsuit, the patient claims that she was convinced she was sexually abused when she wasn't, and this led her to cutoff her parents.

Now, was this actually what happened? There's no way to know. 🤷‍♀️

At the time, the "False Memory Syndrome Foundation" was founded by a group of accused child molesters and set out to protect other accused child molesters by convincing the public that victims had false memories of abuse implanted by therapists. So while it's possible that the patient really was convinced of things that didn't happen...

It's also possible that her abusive family got back in touch with her after learning of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation. Their reputation was damaged when it came out that they abused her, so they convinced her to sue the doctor who treated her as a way to prove they weren't really abusers.

If you know anything about how abusers operate and the psychological power they hold over their victims, this is an entirely plausible scenario.

And while some people might view settling out of court as an admission of guilt, that's just not the case. In criminal law, the standard of proof is "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt." Attempts to quantify that standard would place "beyond a reasonable doubt" at higher than a 90% or 95% certainty of guilt. Civil law only requires a standard of a "preponderance of evidence." That's only over 51%.

Even if the defendant is completely innocent, they have to consider "what are the chances the accusers can make a case to convince the jury that there's at least a 51% chance our side is guilty?" Settling for a tenth of what's being sued for is often just the better financial decision than risking it unless you have hard evidence to prove you're innocent. But that type of hard evidence likely just isn't possible in a case like this.

And the fact is that frivolous malpractice lawsuits, especially against big name doctors, isn't that uncommon or notable.

Let's call this what it is. r/systemscringe is an ableist hate group. They will claim their beliefs are supported by DID experts, but whenever the DID experts don't support or agree with them, they turn against the DID experts.

The fact is that multiple papers have discussed systems who not only have fictives, but are actual fictive-heavy systems. The uneducated ableist hate group that is r/systemscringe can't accept these expert opinions so they go after the credibility of experts instead, even if that means citing dismissed lawsuits as a means to do it.

They don't care about the truth. They only care about ensuring they can keep mocking and keep hurting systems.

[syscoursing]

Just a reminder that the context of me calling a group of people disgusting creatures was their own hateful and bigoted behavior.

The comments were about a group that has a culture of fake claiming. A group that spreads anti-system propaganda. A group which has created blogs to mock systems for not hating themselves, and has posted systems into hate subreddits like r/systemscringe to be mocked by bigoted pluralphobic singlets. And this group was at the time engaging in a harassment and bullying campaign against a person who had made it clear they didn't want them interacting.

I wanted clear whenever this comes up the reasons I said what I said, and why I stand by them.

If you post systems into a hate group to be mocked for system things, if you spread hate against systems for being systems, if you launch harassment campaigns against your former friends because they changed sides on you... Do not expect me to respect you...

If anyone from this group is reading this, here is the reminder that you are vile, you are disgusting.

I stand by everything that I said before. And I frankly don't think that it quite does justice to my thoughts on how awful you all are.

Your actions have done nothing but spread hate against systems. And the system community is worse off with you in it.

[syscoursing]

Exactly why I piped up earlier. Not to say my opinion is better or more correct, but to show that just because they’re trans doesn’t mean they have the ultimate authority over what’s correct, and we’re all different and have different opinions.

The augment of “I asked a few people who are *blank* and they agree with me so I’m right” has always been so weird to me, mainly because no minority group is a monolith, theirs many people of that minority (even a subset of a minority) that have different views of the same thing.

Just because you have some friends that agree with you on *blank* being transphobic does not mean that’s what every person who’s that minority thinks.

If you ask a bunch of Transmeds (who are also trans) if people being non-binary is transphobic, they would say yes (A least a certain subset that I had the unfortunate luck to come into contact with), But that’s not actually the case, and it doesn’t start being the case once you say “oh I asked some trans people and they agreed that being non-binary is transphobic”

If your ONLY augment for something is “I asked some people and they said this” than you do not have a leg to stand on.

Yup! I feel the same here!

TERFs are the same way too! They'll claim that trans women are misogynist men pretending to be women and that "TERF" is a sexist slur. This is a totally real headline:

If you applied no reasoning at all to reach your conclusions about trans people and just listened to the first cis women you talk to, you could very easily end up speaking to TERFs and believing TERF lies that paint trans women as misogynistic invaders hurling slurs at them for no reason.

TERFs and sysmeds like claiming those terms are slurs for the same reason. The words make them uncomfortable. For TERFs, it's as simple as not wanting the optics of being called "trans exclusionary." They prefer a vaguer terms like "gender critical" that obscure their ideology and intent.

For sysmeds, it's about not liking the comparison. They don't like transmeds, maybe they've had bad experiences with transmeds themselves, but they're uncomfortable with how the comparison makes them feel.

And with both groups, it gives them power over the marginalized community they are harming, painting that community as the "real" bigots.

TL;DR; It's DARVO

[syscoursing]

Hi, I’m trans and have DID and my qpp is also trans and has DID. We both agree that “sysmed” is not a transphobic term and it is not transphobic to draw comparisons between the way two hateful groups behave.

So you can shove that up your ass.

I don't think I said that...

I mean, the highlighted portion. I have absolutely said that spaces shouldn't allow these bigots into them, and stand by that.

I think Okiimii might be mixing up what I said with Problemaddtic's old post that's been referenced in syscourse a few times.

In a sense, I do sort of agree with that part of Problemaddtic's post though, but I think we need to make a bit of a split between "what people deserve" and "what should happen to people." Because these things aren't necessarily the same thing.

I would argue that objectively, murderers "deserve" death because they killed people, but that killing people as punishment is bad for a healthy society. It traumatizes the people responsible for killing them, costs more than prison, and contributes to a culture that considers killing okay under the right circumstances which can increase the number of murderers out there.

So even though I don't think I said what is being claimed I said, I do agree with the sentiment in a way.

What sysmeds do is spread a dangerous narrative that there is a slew of "fake" systems out there. This narrative that they contribute to will get more systems fakeclaimed when they seek help, including by their doctors.

It is therefore "fair" to say that sysmeds "deserve" to have their doctors not believe them because the actions of sysmeds will cause others to suffer that fate.

But it's also something that is harmful if it happens.

I would argue that sysmeds shouldn't suffer this even if they deserve to.

[syscoursing]

"no endo is claiming to have did" factoid statistical error. endo georg, who lives in a cave and experienced hell trauma that led to a DID diagnosis from a licensed professional, is someone you overlooked on purpose to pander to sysmeds

[syscoursing]

I’d also like to point out that it’s “distress or dysfunction,” meaning even if it doesn’t necessarily cause distress you could still dysfunctional, thus disordered.

The plurality itself doesn’t distress us, but the symptoms we experience based on dissociation do. The identity confusion between alters is distressing but not the alters themselves. And the fact that we even experience this identity confusion and amnesia is what makes us disordered.

You either have a CDD or you don't.

Every endogenic I've met online or IRL is either one or partly both of two; has some form of C-PTSD/trauma disorder but says they are endogenic because "We don't have enough trauma" & "My system doesn't disorder me"...

Or they are full on role playing.

If you are the latter fuck you.

Now for the former, if you have a trauma disorder already, that by default means you have experienced trauma.

Disassociation is not an easy symptom to self diagnose or self-report, lots of people with these symptoms are used to experiencing disassociation.

Everyone has a different threshold for trauma especially when we are young. So what's to say your endo system isn't just a CDD and you're in denial...

Denial is a core symptom of a CDD, some of you guys are wayyy too comfortable in your "self awareness"

I go on syscoruse and look at endo accounts and they all say something like "yeah I have PTSD 😎 but it isn't bad enough to cause a CDD" and I'm just **facepalm**

And of those of you role playing I hope you find something better to do with your time

-Admin 1

[syscoursing]

“Endos” implies that calling traumagenic systems “traumas” is correct

“They’re endo” -> “they’re trauma”

What lolll

[syscoursing]

Actually Anti-Misinformation: "System Hopping Was a RAMCOA term Appropriated and Bastardized From RAMCOA survivors."

What is system hopping?

System hopping or system travel typically refers to travel between systems. There are two different definitions. One being travel between completely different bodies, and one being travel between subsystems or sidesystems. The former is the much more commonly used.

The Claim:

A rumor has been circulating for a while claiming that the second definition of system hopping was the original and that the term was stolen from RAMCOA survivors.

Examples:

(Those last two are from r/systemscringe, if you're curious.)

Where did this start?

The apparent originator of this rumor is a Tweet made April 10 2021.

There is no record of system hopping ever being used in relation to RAMCOA before this date. Some individuals simply jumped on this as a chance to smear the endogenic community, claiming that they appropriated/stole/bastardized the RAMCOA term.

The user who made the Tweet later deleted it after seeing how it was being misused.

They've also confirmed that, to their knowledge, this term wasn't used in relation to RAMCOA systems before them in the RAMCOA world.

Searches have confirmed this the same. This was not a RAMCOA term before 2021.

How Old is "System Hopping?"

The earliest use of system hopping we're aware of dates back to 2005 on Livejournal.

This was a full 16 years before the RAMCOA association was ever made.

@thelunastusco has reported anecdotally seeing this term frequently in soulbonding and fictionkin communities as early as 2007.

The entire claim is a complete lie that has been parroted in order to smear system hoppers and endogenic systems as a whole.

Bonus: Traveling is Older

Since one of the tweets mentioned that RAMCOA survivors could use system travel instead (which to be clear, they can, because I don't believe in gatekeeping terms), I thought I should address this one too, while also addressing another claim... that system travel is a reinvention of system hopping:

As far as we can tell, system travel existed first as the name for this phenomenon. In 2001, Dark Personalities included a header for "intersystem travel."

LiveJournal had a "traveling & visiting" tag back in 2002.

And a post where this was discussed as traveling has been found in 2003.

Conclusion:

System hopping and travel are both terms originating in the early 2000s in reference to moving between differently-bodied systems.

The rumor that there was any association between system hopping and RAMCOA didn't start until 2021. The lies that were spread as a result ultimately led to the author of the Tweets deleting them.

There is zero merit to any of the claims that system hopping is an appropriated RAMCOA term.

For more on system hopping and what it is, check out this post from @thelunastusco.

[syscoursing]

“When someone says they’re ‘a system’ instead of ‘part of a system,’ I know they’re lying”

So let me get this straight.

If someone sees themselves as separate, they’re lying.

BUT if someone sees their system as an extension of themselves (which is very clinical) and uses language to reflect that differently from you, they’re also lying?

[syscoursing]

Tagging someone in a post is not a form of doxxing.

Doxxing is the release of hidden and identifiable information.

We still don’t know who trinket system is, what their legal name is, where they live, or anything that actually identifies them. Just a blog url.

Calling everything “doxxing” is hilarious, as a victim of actual doxxing.

PSA: The People Arguing That Browsing r/systemscringe Isn't Self-Harm Are Likely Cringizens Reacting To This Being The Newest Post In Their Hatesub

Also, I just want to comment on the sheer hypocrisy in one of the hatesub's comments.

"Place where their narrative can be argued"

Respectfully, u/Grace-Kamikaze, you are hiding away in an ableist echo chamber that bans anyone they don't agree with for spreading so-called "misinformation," even when the person is citing peer reviewed academic literature.

That's how I was banned.

Only one narrative

Any of you can argue right here on Tumblr if you want. In fact, I would welcome it! I can't promise I'd respond to everything. The Plural Holy Trinity knows that I can't even keep up with my inbox. But unlike the cowards on your subreddit, I won't block people for disagreeing with me.

So if you actually wanted to argue in an environment where the people who disagreed aren't banned by authoritarian moderators, bring it on! And while I'm calling you out specifically, Grace, it's not just you personally. I would extend the same offer to anyone in your hate sub. Just on that thread, I see u/RunawayTrinket, u/coffee--beans, u/AdhesivenessOk5534, u/Cold_Dead_Smile... Anyone who wanted to have an actual discussion outside of your hatesub is welcome here!

Or if any of the mods thought their views could stand up to scrutiny, they can unban me. But I don't see u/Lxions, u/veezra, u/woas_hellzone or u/0MeikoMeiko0 wanting to do that. 🤷‍♀️

[syscoursing]

Stop getting on Sophie’s ass for the anons she receives.

Especially since she disagrees with them.

Never mind that you don’t need to agree with an anon to publish them.

These posts can be found if they’d look.

Sorry to add on but I believe that it’s very ironic that they’re reducing “dehumanization” down to “she called me a mean name a couple times” while accusing you of minimizing antisemitism.

Seriously!

I'm saying it again that actual dehumanization is a process! Either you are dehumanizing a marginalized group to deny them of their rights with consistent propaganda... or you are dehumanizing specific people you have a relationship with in a more focused way over a long period of time to erode their self-worth and control them.

Simple namecalling, even namecalling that compares people to nonhuman things, is not comparable to actual dehumanization at all.

[syscoursing]

Some fucking singlet (off tumblr entirely) told me that with DID I shouldn’t be able to switch willingly and cited their fucking COUSIN who has DID. Like oh my god fucking morons not all systems are the same and with trust building you absolutely can learn to switch on purpose.

[syscoursing]

Exactly

Like back right before we found out about our system we really did switch totally involuntarily with full blackout and sometimes we still do that but nowadays it’s more often a smooth transition type of switch because of trust building and self care.

Some fucking singlet (off tumblr entirely) told me that with DID I shouldn’t be able to switch willingly and cited their fucking COUSIN who has DID. Like oh my god fucking morons not all systems are the same and with trust building you absolutely can learn to switch on purpose.

[syscoursing]

Some fucking singlet (off tumblr entirely) told me that with DID I shouldn’t be able to switch willingly and cited their fucking COUSIN who has DID. Like oh my god fucking morons not all systems are the same and with trust building you absolutely can learn to switch on purpose.

[syscoursing]

If a group of cyberbullies and harassers doesn't like being dehumanized, they should try demonstrating a bit more humanity.

[syscoursing]

Your bio says “just trying to figure out being a system” so that implied to me that you’re completely new here.

But, it’s obvious to me that you’re not willing to put in the work to find these spaces yourself. If you’ve truly been here, you’d have seen it. You need to make an effort to cultivate your space.

Have a nice day.

Hear me out what if we just make new tags to separate out community spaces.

There can be a community for trauma-informed conversations (#trauma informed system space), one for non-CDD plurality (#endogenic space), and one that’s a shared space (#shared plural space).

Then people who want to be in the shared space can be there, and if they don’t want to then that’s okay! There’s two other places to go and no one has to bother anyone else yayy